Author Topic: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists  (Read 3063 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 12:40:52 PM »
Fasten your seatbelts, it's gonna be a bumby thread.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 12:52:54 PM »
A quote of what he ACTUALLY said, rather than a cheap shot headline might ensure a more edifying discussion.

" The Ecumenical Patriarch made ​​extensive references to the reactions that exist regarding theological dialogue both in Bulgaria and other countries, noting that these actions are aimed at mutual understanding and for the acceptance in time "by the heterodox of the one Orthodox faith."

"We do not aim, as it is written in Bulgaria and elsewhere, towards the creation of a commonly acceptable 'conglomeration' of beliefs. That is, we are not pursuing through the so-called ecumenical movement the acceptance of a 'Christian syncretistic confession', but a deepening in the Orthodox Christian faith and in societal cooperation with those who invoke the name of Christ," said Bartholomew.

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 01:01:54 PM »
He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 01:14:32 PM »
He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

No we have to fear from within.  It is from within the greatest dangers lurk.  It is from within that our hierarchs engaged in the ecumenical dialogue and produced such bad fruit as the Balamand agreement.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 10:21:03 PM »
Great, more double speak
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Offline android

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 11:00:09 PM »
He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...

Offline ialmisry

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 12:36:50 AM »
He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...
Speaking of pride, HAH has gotten some interesting ideas from his friends in the Vatican:
Quote
indestructible and sincere spiritual ties, which link us inextricably as individual Orthodox Churches towards one another and towards the first among these - the Ecumenical Patriarchate," said the Patriarch.
Didn't the Churches-was it on Cyprus, a few years back?-correct HAH on Orthodoxy as defined by the council of Ravenna?

The Phanar could more easily convince by ceasing to stick its nose into every one else's business.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 12:39:42 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Punch

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 01:49:16 AM »
He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.  Because someone thinks that the EP is an ecumenist does not mean that such a person considers themselves to be "holier than thou".  While the EP is totally correct in stating that the CHURCH has no fear of the heretics, he is NOT the Church.  All of the woes, schisms, heresies and ill that has befallen the Church has come from those within - particularly the hierarchs.  Persecutions from the outside have only purged and strengthened the Church.  Perhaps that is why the Fathers tell us not to debate our Faith, but proclaim it.  We must be cautious of those who claim to govern on Christs behalf, particularly when they sleep with those who try to destroy Christ.  Believing that we will ever convert the heretics by "dialogue" is comperable to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 02:05:36 AM »
Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

But, I wonder, what prompted it?  Why did he use this occasion, a visit from the newly enthroned Patriarch of Bulgaria, to publically explain the Orthodox Church's involvement in ecumenical affairs? Is the Bulgarian Church under their new Patriarch withdrawing or debating such action, from the dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church?

I know there are two Old Calendar separatist churches in Bulgaria.

This pronouncement is necessary and an appropriate defense to those who refer to ecumenical contacts as a "Pan-Heresy."
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Offline IoanC

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 02:07:37 AM »
Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 02:12:20 AM by IoanC »

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 03:35:34 AM »
Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence

What?
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 03:37:45 AM »
Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.

I'm having trouble reconciling the first paragraph with the second. "Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world" I can understand but what sort of dogmatic truths should we be willing to abandon for it?

I'm not arguing for anything here but I imagine that sometimes the Devil hides himself among those who would call themselves Christians. Sometimes their work is his.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:57:22 AM by Hawkeye »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2013, 04:50:32 AM »
Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.

I agree with the essence of your comment, but we shouldn't minimize Church Dogma, its dogmatic theology---dogma, doctrine, is necessary for the church to preserve, as belief in it, is necessary for the salvation of the faithful.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 04:51:47 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2013, 06:07:36 AM »
It is unfortunate for His All Holiness that it is so easy to notice when he speaks with two mouths, in one instance, saying

"Through this strategy we are not betraying Orthodoxy, as criticized, nor do we support ecumenistic concepts, but we proclaim to the heterodox and to all the truth of Orthodoxy," going on, to speak of "The eventual recognition and the acceptance of the heterodox of the one Orthodox faith."

Is this to say, that one day, he says the heterodox will become Orthodox? Is he in fact saying, that by accepting the one Orthodox faith, they would realize it's Truth? For it was just said, "We proclaim to the heterodox and to all the truth of Orthodoxy" so, is he saying that he aims to bring the heterodox to the truth?

Then His All Holiness must be speaking with his other mouth over a year ago, saying that the Orthodox Church does not aim to convince others to another specific perception of truth or revelation nor to convert them to another way of thinking. If he just said he aims to bring all the heterodox to recognize, and then accept the Truth of Orthodoxy, then why does he say he does not want to change the "truths" of the heterodox? Did he change his mind? Or is he simply talking with two mouths?

If his mind has been changed, and he now believes that the Orthodox Church holds the entire Truth, is he ready now to condemn Patriarch Athenagoras and his synchronistic ecumenism? It was just said, that himself, he is not an ecumenist nor does he believe in synchronistic branch theory. So, if he does not believe in this, perhaps he is ready to condemn Patriarch Athenagoras when he spoke:

"Who's criterion by which to prove the claimed exclusiveness of truth? Whatever be is said, the fact remains that as divided, the Church is not healthy but wounded, and a part/section can never be arrogated in the entire truth."

If His All Holiness is ready to proclaim the whole Truth, then is he ready to also condemn his statement that was said by him in november of 2005:

"The differences between Muslims and Christians have their roots in politics not faith"

To speak the whole Truth is one thing, but how about in actions? Is he ready to tell his delegations to the pope to cease to bow and kiss the hand of a schismatic as they now do every year and at the popes ordination? Will he now take back his gift of the koran at the coca cola festivities? Will he now cease to pray with cacodox? Is His All Holiness ready to repent for bringing a heretical heirarch into the liturgy on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy, not even with courage to proclaim with the Holy Fathers, "Anathema"?

No longer, or never an ecumenist? Perhaps His All Holiness will then agree to take back what he said back as an archimandrite, speaking of the sacred canons, that "many of them can not be followed today" and that the ones regarding Orthodox and Heterodox should be modified seeing as they contradict "this common prayer with them [the heterodox] for the final union of faith, in hope and in love".

It is unfortunate for His All Holiness, that he has been unable to repeal those canons yet due to delays of the coming Great and Holy Council. Wouldn't it have been convenient for these canons to be repealed earlier? That way, the epilogue of the Canons addressing the bishops would not speak prophetically on the current schisms of the Orthodox church on such an outdated canon:

"If you remain in them you shall be saved and shall have peace, but if you disobey, you shall suffer torments and you shall have everlasting war with one another, receiving as reward a fitting judgment for heedlessness"

Sources:


http://books.google.com/books?id=2N7vEnxOO5UC&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=Islam+in+a+pluralistic+world+2005+bartholomew&source=bl&ots=rwkSDtSG_8&sig=rqqJVe1d521MayHnDmOqeoJzta8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VjVbUoWACa_8yAGR54EQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Islam%20in%20a%20pluralistic%20world%202005%20bartholomew&f=false

At the conference in Vienna, Islam in a Pluralistic World November of 2005, his address

his speech is quoted there, and the quote is at page 304

Ok, the two quotes about canons by then Archimandrite Bartholomew is from this, which he wrote:

Ἀρχιμ. ΒΑΡΘΟΛΟΜΑΙΟΥ ΑΡΧΟΝΤΩΝΗ, Περί τήν κωδικοποίησιν τῶν Ἱ. Κανόνων καίτῶν κανονικῶν διατάξεων ἐν τῇ Ὀρθοδόξῳ Ἐκκλησίᾳ, ἈνάλεκταΒλατάδων 6,Θεσσαλονίκη 1970,σελ.27.31.70.

(terrible google translate):

Archimandrite. BARTHOLOMEW Arhondonis, About to encode the Holy. Rules Katy layout rules in the Orthodox Church, AnalektaVlatadon 6, Thessaloniki 1970, sel.27.31.70.

so there is the source for that one...

Next.

For the quote from Patriarch Athenegoras speaking about exlucivness of truth, a source:

Βλ. ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΥ ΜΟΥΡΑΤΙΔΟΥ, ἔνθ’ἀνωτ., σελ. 29 καί τοῦ αὐτοῦ, Οἱ Ἱεροί Κανόνες στόχος καί ἑδραίωμα τῆς Ὀρθοδοξίας. Ἀπάντησις, εἰς τόν σεβασμιώτατον ἀρχιεπίσκοπον Θυατείρων καίΜ.Βρεττανίας κ.Ἀθηναγόραν,Ἀθῆναι1972,σελ.21-22.

(terrible google translate):

See KONSTANTINOU Mouratidis, enth'anot., Page 29 and the same, the sacred canons and objective ground of the Orthodox. Apantisis, in the Archbishop of Thyatira kaiM.Vrettanias k.Athinagoran, Athinai1972, p.21-22.

Next.

Patriarch Bartholomew saying that "we do not aim to convince. . ."

«Καθολική»,22-7-2003,σελ.4 καί 5 καί ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ, Ἀντιοικουμενιστικά,Ἀθῆναι2004,σελ.24-26

(Terrible google translate)

'Catholic',22-7-2003, p.4 and 5 NICHOLAS Sotiropoulos, Antioikoumenistika, Athinai2004, p.24-26

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« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:56:44 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline mike

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2013, 08:56:37 AM »
Is the Bulgarian Church under their new Patriarch withdrawing or debating such action, from the dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church?

It did. A couple of years ago.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2013, 12:11:06 PM »
He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.  Because someone thinks that the EP is an ecumenist does not mean that such a person considers themselves to be "holier than thou".  While the EP is totally correct in stating that the CHURCH has no fear of the heretics, he is NOT the Church.  All of the woes, schisms, heresies and ill that has befallen the Church has come from those within - particularly the hierarchs.  Persecutions from the outside have only purged and strengthened the Church.  Perhaps that is why the Fathers tell us not to debate our Faith, but proclaim it.  We must be cautious of those who claim to govern on Christs behalf, particularly when they sleep with those who try to destroy Christ.  Believing that we will ever convert the heretics by "dialogue" is comperable to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.

So you're frequently tempted to return to Turdism?

Or are the heretics just Papists in this context?

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2013, 12:54:15 PM »
What the blue blazes is 'Turdism'? Most 'isms' appear to be dubious social constructs of little worth other than as reductionist labels of no account, in my opinion.

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2013, 01:26:21 PM »
What the blue blazes is 'Turdism'? Most 'isms' appear to be dubious social constructs of little worth other than as reductionist labels of no account, in my opinion.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2013, 10:20:57 PM »
He'd rather have an open "dialog" (sometimes during liturgy) with the heterodox than bring synods of bishops who schismed because of ecumenism back into world Orthodoxy...

Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2013, 10:35:57 PM »
He'd rather have an open "dialog" (sometimes during liturgy) with the heterodox than bring synods of bishops who schismed because of ecumenism back into world Orthodoxy...

Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   

Interesting that you care what HH does at Liturgy.  What do you do at Liturgy?

Oh yeah...
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2013, 11:38:57 PM »

Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   

Apparently you think there is substance to polite address.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2013, 11:45:34 PM »

Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   

Apparently you think there is substance to polite address.

My, you were being polite!   ;)
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 12:12:21 AM »
I do wish that the official church would engage Old Calendar separated churches in dialogue.   I know most wouldn't be interested in meeting with the "First Among [Graceless] Equals," or others in the "graceless" Orthodox Churches, but I think all concerned would benefit from a dialogue that would publish the positions, side by side, of each as to the issues in dispute.  Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna (CA), the American Exarch of the Greek Old Calendar Synod in Resistance, has indicated that his church would happily engage in frank, but respectful dialogue.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 12:15:09 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline IoanC

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 01:34:49 AM »
Of course it is important. It is absolutely fundamental. But that's not really the hard part. The hard part is living the faith and helping the world. Overemphasizing dogma is like re-learning the alphabet over and over. Thinking your going to lose it is like constantly being paranoid thinking that someone is going to steal your candy.

Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.

I agree with the essence of your comment, but we shouldn't minimize Church Dogma, its dogmatic theology---dogma, doctrine, is necessary for the church to preserve, as belief in it, is necessary for the salvation of the faithful.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 01:57:15 AM »
Overemphasizing dogma is like re-learning the alphabet over and over

In a way, I've done that before.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 05:52:04 AM »
And why do we have dogma? To safeguard the faithful. The question is does the behaviour of Orthodox in their relations with other groups confuse that message or not?

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2013, 01:47:54 AM »
Hello friends!

I was asked to provide sources for these quotes, and here I will provide them! Apologies, these things were done or said in Greek, and there have been no full translations unsurprisingly (I mean, not even many holy fathers have been translated yet!) of these works or sayings, especially back when the internet was in its infancy the only places these things were published were in newspapers and books.

For the then Archimandrite Bartholomew, speaking of the canons and praying with heretics and his recommendations to change or repeal them, his work:

Ἀρχιμ. ΒΑΡΘΟΛΟΜΑΙΟΥ ΑΡΧΟΝΤΩΝΗ, Περί τήν κωδικοποίησιν τῶν Ἱ. Κανόνων καίτῶν κανονικῶν διατάξεων ἐν τῇ Ὀρθοδόξῳ Ἐκκλησίᾳ, ἈνάλεκταΒλατάδων 6,Θεσσαλονίκη 1970,σελ.27.31.70

---------------

For the quote from Patriarch Athenagoras speaking about exclusiveness of truth not being necessarily in the Orthodox Church:

Βλ. ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΥ ΜΟΥΡΑΤΙΔΟΥ, ἔνθ’ἀνωτ., σελ. 29 καί τοῦ αὐτοῦ, Οἱ Ἱεροί Κανόνες στόχος καί ἑδραίωμα τῆς Ὀρθοδοξίας. Ἀπάντησις, εἰς τόν σεβασμιώτατον ἀρχιεπίσκοπον Θυατείρων καίΜ.Βρεττανίας κ.Ἀθηναγόραν,Ἀθῆναι1972,σελ.21-22

-----------

Patriarch Bartholomew speaking of not wishing to convince heretics to a different truth than their own:

«Καθολική»,22-7-2003,σελ.4 καί 5 καί ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ, Ἀντιοικουμενιστικά,Ἀθῆναι2004,σελ.24-26

------------

Patriarch Bartholomew speaking that root of differences between christians and muslims is politics not faith (LUCKILY SPOKEN IN ENGLISH!):

here you go for that quote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2N7vEnxOO5UC&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=Islam+in+a+pluralistic+world+2005+bartholomew&source=bl&ots=rwkSDtSG_8&sig=rqqJVe1d521MayHnDmOqeoJzta8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VjVbUoWACa_8yAGR54EQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Islam%20in%20a%20pluralistic%20world%202005%20bartholomew&f=false

At the conference in Vienna, Islam in a Pluralistic World November of 2005, his address

page 304



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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 08:03:45 AM »
^ In the English page you provide, just what do you find offensive? One may disagree about his representations about modern Turkish society which, given the religious and demographic composition of modern Turkey is not what we in the west would consider "pluralistic". As an alternative, for example, would you argue that living with jihad, oppression and fear are preferable to peaceful coexistence? Should he encourage armed resistance as an alternative, or something in between, whatever that might be?


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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2013, 10:09:19 PM »
Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2013, 10:18:17 PM »
Quote
"Therefore, it is important that the effort to endeavor to bridge the differences between Orthodox Churches is not an effort associated with already achieved steadfast unity, but a deeper, further and consolidated effort, to achieve a uniformity at the possibility in overcoming various emerging issues," he said further.

The rest was nice enough, but just what kind of uniformity is HAH talking about here?

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2013, 10:33:54 PM »
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2013, 10:41:59 PM »
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.

"Yes! Because the Inquisition was radical and even the Catholics reject and regret it. Part of the Catholic tradition is that of non-violence."

So just as you and Anabaptists shy away from the Batenburgers of their tradition, so do most contemporary Catholics want to reconsider the violent excesses of their own tradition in light of the rest of their faith. As my professor has mentioned, there were apparently more (non-violent) Third Order Franciscans in Europe than all of the Crusaders together. They opposed violent action and urged dialogue, language-learning, and prayer to overcome conflict, heresy, non-Christians, etc.

So we should be willing to forgive them their trespasses even if they do not ask for it or seem to deserve it, unless of course we're really supposed to be polemical and grudge-bearing.

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2013, 10:47:01 PM »
Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.
I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 12:01:54 AM »
Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence

What?

Plus one to the "what?" column. 

I suppose "dogmatic existence" needs further explanation, as otherwise the sentence seems deeply misguided.
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 12:35:30 AM »
YiM,

You must enjoy hating for hating's sake.  Otherwise, I don't get it. 

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

So he attends church services with the Pope when he's in Rome.  I understand why some Orthodox would have a problem with him, but why should you?  Your disagreements with Patriarch Bartholomew are on a more fundamental level.  You reject icons and speculate about Our Lady's sexual history.  Compared to you, Pope Francis is St Cyril of Alexandria.  I'd rush to go to his church too if yours was the alternative.   

Quote
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?

Even without the RC's, EO are already linked with those responsible for the butchering of Christians and others--they are in communion with themselves.  Protestants are not innocent.  Who is?   

Quote
The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).

Defying all canons, lol.

Quote
The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Pope John Paul II apologised.  Have Protestants done so?   
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Offline Daniel Smith

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 01:01:45 AM »

 :police:
Actually, the inquisitional courts were far more humane than the secular courts. All the things you described is what happened when the guilty party was handed over to the secular authorities. Former Catholic here!
 ;D

Offline Basil 320

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 04:34:07 AM »
Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism.  

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

His All Holiness is not lying in the foregoing statement which should be studied because it explains and refutes all the paranoiac, unfounded, and malicious motives too often ascribed to him, asserting compromise of our Holy Orthodoxy, in his ecumenical initiatives.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:45:31 AM by Basil 320 »
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2013, 08:25:06 AM »
Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 08:49:57 AM »
Quote
"Therefore, it is important that the effort to endeavor to bridge the differences between Orthodox Churches is not an effort associated with already achieved steadfast unity, but a deeper, further and consolidated effort, to achieve a uniformity at the possibility in overcoming various emerging issues," he said further.

The rest was nice enough, but just what kind of uniformity is HAH talking about here?

Solving common problems and not killing each other would be one. That's clear if one has read his published works rather than out of context cherry picked snippets.

HAH is not seeking one religion at the expense of truth and the salvific message of Our Church.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 08:52:24 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 08:51:37 AM »
Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism.  

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

His All Holiness is not lying in the foregoing statement which should be studied because it explains and refutes all the paranoiac, unfounded, and malicious motives too often ascribed to him, asserting compromise of our Holy Orthodoxy, in his ecumenical initiatives.

Amen.x3

Offline Alpo

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 08:55:35 AM »
Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

It's a Finnish thing too. What's his title in Slavonic?
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Offline mike

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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 08:58:10 AM »
Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

It's a Finnish thing too. What's his title in Slavonic?

"Cвятейший" as for other patriarchs but Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Romania or Bulgaria.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 08:58:54 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 09:11:01 AM »
Is there an English equivalent?
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