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Author Topic: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists  (Read 1942 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 20, 2013, 12:31:30 PM »

This will be a funny thread.

Text: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/09/e-p-bartholomew-we-are-not-betraying.html
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 12:40:52 PM »

Fasten your seatbelts, it's gonna be a bumby thread.
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 12:52:54 PM »

A quote of what he ACTUALLY said, rather than a cheap shot headline might ensure a more edifying discussion.

" The Ecumenical Patriarch made ​​extensive references to the reactions that exist regarding theological dialogue both in Bulgaria and other countries, noting that these actions are aimed at mutual understanding and for the acceptance in time "by the heterodox of the one Orthodox faith."

"We do not aim, as it is written in Bulgaria and elsewhere, towards the creation of a commonly acceptable 'conglomeration' of beliefs. That is, we are not pursuing through the so-called ecumenical movement the acceptance of a 'Christian syncretistic confession', but a deepening in the Orthodox Christian faith and in societal cooperation with those who invoke the name of Christ," said Bartholomew.

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 01:01:54 PM »

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 01:14:32 PM »

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

No we have to fear from within.  It is from within the greatest dangers lurk.  It is from within that our hierarchs engaged in the ecumenical dialogue and produced such bad fruit as the Balamand agreement.
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 10:21:03 PM »

Great, more double speak
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 11:00:09 PM »

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 12:36:50 AM »

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...
Speaking of pride, HAH has gotten some interesting ideas from his friends in the Vatican:
Quote
indestructible and sincere spiritual ties, which link us inextricably as individual Orthodox Churches towards one another and towards the first among these - the Ecumenical Patriarchate," said the Patriarch.
Didn't the Churches-was it on Cyprus, a few years back?-correct HAH on Orthodoxy as defined by the council of Ravenna?

The Phanar could more easily convince by ceasing to stick its nose into every one else's business.
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 01:49:16 AM »

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.  Because someone thinks that the EP is an ecumenist does not mean that such a person considers themselves to be "holier than thou".  While the EP is totally correct in stating that the CHURCH has no fear of the heretics, he is NOT the Church.  All of the woes, schisms, heresies and ill that has befallen the Church has come from those within - particularly the hierarchs.  Persecutions from the outside have only purged and strengthened the Church.  Perhaps that is why the Fathers tell us not to debate our Faith, but proclaim it.  We must be cautious of those who claim to govern on Christs behalf, particularly when they sleep with those who try to destroy Christ.  Believing that we will ever convert the heretics by "dialogue" is comperable to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 02:05:36 AM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

But, I wonder, what prompted it?  Why did he use this occasion, a visit from the newly enthroned Patriarch of Bulgaria, to publically explain the Orthodox Church's involvement in ecumenical affairs? Is the Bulgarian Church under their new Patriarch withdrawing or debating such action, from the dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church?

I know there are two Old Calendar separatist churches in Bulgaria.

This pronouncement is necessary and an appropriate defense to those who refer to ecumenical contacts as a "Pan-Heresy."
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 02:07:37 AM »

Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 03:35:34 AM »

Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence

What?
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 03:37:45 AM »

Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.

I'm having trouble reconciling the first paragraph with the second. "Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world" I can understand but what sort of dogmatic truths should we be willing to abandon for it?

I'm not arguing for anything here but I imagine that sometimes the Devil hides himself among those who would call themselves Christians. Sometimes their work is his.
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2013, 04:50:32 AM »

Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.

I agree with the essence of your comment, but we shouldn't minimize Church Dogma, its dogmatic theology---dogma, doctrine, is necessary for the church to preserve, as belief in it, is necessary for the salvation of the faithful.
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2013, 06:07:36 AM »

It is unfortunate for His All Holiness that it is so easy to notice when he speaks with two mouths, in one instance, saying

"Through this strategy we are not betraying Orthodoxy, as criticized, nor do we support ecumenistic concepts, but we proclaim to the heterodox and to all the truth of Orthodoxy," going on, to speak of "The eventual recognition and the acceptance of the heterodox of the one Orthodox faith."

Is this to say, that one day, he says the heterodox will become Orthodox? Is he in fact saying, that by accepting the one Orthodox faith, they would realize it's Truth? For it was just said, "We proclaim to the heterodox and to all the truth of Orthodoxy" so, is he saying that he aims to bring the heterodox to the truth?

Then His All Holiness must be speaking with his other mouth over a year ago, saying that the Orthodox Church does not aim to convince others to another specific perception of truth or revelation nor to convert them to another way of thinking. If he just said he aims to bring all the heterodox to recognize, and then accept the Truth of Orthodoxy, then why does he say he does not want to change the "truths" of the heterodox? Did he change his mind? Or is he simply talking with two mouths?

If his mind has been changed, and he now believes that the Orthodox Church holds the entire Truth, is he ready now to condemn Patriarch Athenagoras and his synchronistic ecumenism? It was just said, that himself, he is not an ecumenist nor does he believe in synchronistic branch theory. So, if he does not believe in this, perhaps he is ready to condemn Patriarch Athenagoras when he spoke:

"Who's criterion by which to prove the claimed exclusiveness of truth? Whatever be is said, the fact remains that as divided, the Church is not healthy but wounded, and a part/section can never be arrogated in the entire truth."

If His All Holiness is ready to proclaim the whole Truth, then is he ready to also condemn his statement that was said by him in november of 2005:

"The differences between Muslims and Christians have their roots in politics not faith"

To speak the whole Truth is one thing, but how about in actions? Is he ready to tell his delegations to the pope to cease to bow and kiss the hand of a schismatic as they now do every year and at the popes ordination? Will he now take back his gift of the koran at the coca cola festivities? Will he now cease to pray with cacodox? Is His All Holiness ready to repent for bringing a heretical heirarch into the liturgy on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy, not even with courage to proclaim with the Holy Fathers, "Anathema"?

No longer, or never an ecumenist? Perhaps His All Holiness will then agree to take back what he said back as an archimandrite, speaking of the sacred canons, that "many of them can not be followed today" and that the ones regarding Orthodox and Heterodox should be modified seeing as they contradict "this common prayer with them [the heterodox] for the final union of faith, in hope and in love".

It is unfortunate for His All Holiness, that he has been unable to repeal those canons yet due to delays of the coming Great and Holy Council. Wouldn't it have been convenient for these canons to be repealed earlier? That way, the epilogue of the Canons addressing the bishops would not speak prophetically on the current schisms of the Orthodox church on such an outdated canon:

"If you remain in them you shall be saved and shall have peace, but if you disobey, you shall suffer torments and you shall have everlasting war with one another, receiving as reward a fitting judgment for heedlessness"

Sources:


http://books.google.com/books?id=2N7vEnxOO5UC&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=Islam+in+a+pluralistic+world+2005+bartholomew&source=bl&ots=rwkSDtSG_8&sig=rqqJVe1d521MayHnDmOqeoJzta8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VjVbUoWACa_8yAGR54EQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Islam%20in%20a%20pluralistic%20world%202005%20bartholomew&f=false

At the conference in Vienna, Islam in a Pluralistic World November of 2005, his address

his speech is quoted there, and the quote is at page 304

Ok, the two quotes about canons by then Archimandrite Bartholomew is from this, which he wrote:

Ἀρχιμ. ΒΑΡΘΟΛΟΜΑΙΟΥ ΑΡΧΟΝΤΩΝΗ, Περί τήν κωδικοποίησιν τῶν Ἱ. Κανόνων καίτῶν κανονικῶν διατάξεων ἐν τῇ Ὀρθοδόξῳ Ἐκκλησίᾳ, ἈνάλεκταΒλατάδων 6,Θεσσαλονίκη 1970,σελ.27.31.70.

(terrible google translate):

Archimandrite. BARTHOLOMEW Arhondonis, About to encode the Holy. Rules Katy layout rules in the Orthodox Church, AnalektaVlatadon 6, Thessaloniki 1970, sel.27.31.70.

so there is the source for that one...

Next.

For the quote from Patriarch Athenegoras speaking about exlucivness of truth, a source:

Βλ. ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΥ ΜΟΥΡΑΤΙΔΟΥ, ἔνθ’ἀνωτ., σελ. 29 καί τοῦ αὐτοῦ, Οἱ Ἱεροί Κανόνες στόχος καί ἑδραίωμα τῆς Ὀρθοδοξίας. Ἀπάντησις, εἰς τόν σεβασμιώτατον ἀρχιεπίσκοπον Θυατείρων καίΜ.Βρεττανίας κ.Ἀθηναγόραν,Ἀθῆναι1972,σελ.21-22.

(terrible google translate):

See KONSTANTINOU Mouratidis, enth'anot., Page 29 and the same, the sacred canons and objective ground of the Orthodox. Apantisis, in the Archbishop of Thyatira kaiM.Vrettanias k.Athinagoran, Athinai1972, p.21-22.

Next.

Patriarch Bartholomew saying that "we do not aim to convince. . ."

«Καθολική»,22-7-2003,σελ.4 καί 5 καί ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ, Ἀντιοικουμενιστικά,Ἀθῆναι2004,σελ.24-26

(Terrible google translate)

'Catholic',22-7-2003, p.4 and 5 NICHOLAS Sotiropoulos, Antioikoumenistika, Athinai2004, p.24-26

provided by Gunnarr over PM...thank you!

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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2013, 08:56:37 AM »

Is the Bulgarian Church under their new Patriarch withdrawing or debating such action, from the dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church?

It did. A couple of years ago.
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2013, 12:11:06 PM »

He added that: "Naturally, we do not fear, as Orthodox, who have the fullness of truth, that we will be affected by the views of our heterodox brethren on doctrinal issues." "

Great line...and so true.  We have nothing to fear from others.

Absolutely. He can't make it any clearer. Communication isn't the evil of "ecumenism". Unfortunately some people are so invested in a particular narrative ( and their faith and devotion are keyed off conspiracy theories and anti -EP ghost stories) that there is nothing the man can say to convince them otherwise. Schismatic holier than thou types have always been there. It is all about pride...

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.  Because someone thinks that the EP is an ecumenist does not mean that such a person considers themselves to be "holier than thou".  While the EP is totally correct in stating that the CHURCH has no fear of the heretics, he is NOT the Church.  All of the woes, schisms, heresies and ill that has befallen the Church has come from those within - particularly the hierarchs.  Persecutions from the outside have only purged and strengthened the Church.  Perhaps that is why the Fathers tell us not to debate our Faith, but proclaim it.  We must be cautious of those who claim to govern on Christs behalf, particularly when they sleep with those who try to destroy Christ.  Believing that we will ever convert the heretics by "dialogue" is comperable to believing that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.

So you're frequently tempted to return to Turdism?

Or are the heretics just Papists in this context?
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2013, 12:54:15 PM »

What the blue blazes is 'Turdism'? Most 'isms' appear to be dubious social constructs of little worth other than as reductionist labels of no account, in my opinion.
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2013, 01:26:21 PM »

What the blue blazes is 'Turdism'? Most 'isms' appear to be dubious social constructs of little worth other than as reductionist labels of no account, in my opinion.

Reductionism: the Ism to end all Isms!
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2013, 10:20:57 PM »

He'd rather have an open "dialog" (sometimes during liturgy) with the heterodox than bring synods of bishops who schismed because of ecumenism back into world Orthodoxy...

Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2013, 10:35:57 PM »

He'd rather have an open "dialog" (sometimes during liturgy) with the heterodox than bring synods of bishops who schismed because of ecumenism back into world Orthodoxy...

Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   

Interesting that you care what HH does at Liturgy.  What do you do at Liturgy?

Oh yeah...
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2013, 11:38:57 PM »


Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   

Apparently you think there is substance to polite address.
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2013, 11:45:34 PM »


Interesting that people call him all holiness and master.   

Apparently you think there is substance to polite address.

My, you were being polite!   Wink
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 12:12:21 AM »

I do wish that the official church would engage Old Calendar separated churches in dialogue.   I know most wouldn't be interested in meeting with the "First Among [Graceless] Equals," or others in the "graceless" Orthodox Churches, but I think all concerned would benefit from a dialogue that would publish the positions, side by side, of each as to the issues in dispute.  Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna (CA), the American Exarch of the Greek Old Calendar Synod in Resistance, has indicated that his church would happily engage in frank, but respectful dialogue.
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 01:34:49 AM »

Of course it is important. It is absolutely fundamental. But that's not really the hard part. The hard part is living the faith and helping the world. Overemphasizing dogma is like re-learning the alphabet over and over. Thinking your going to lose it is like constantly being paranoid thinking that someone is going to steal your candy.

Absolutely, there is nothing to fear, unless our faith is weak and we start relying on our own powers and not God (and unavoidably we will fail, make mistakes). Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence; in the face of major events that threaten humanity, it is not our dogmatic truth that will help us, but the unity and brotherhood that we share. This is something that we should not (re)learn the hard way. I pray HH Bartholomew will be able to fulfill this difficult task that he has undertaken.

And, let us not forget that the real spiritual fight is not among Christians (even of various denominations), but comes from the antichrist and his followers and is against the entire world (including all Christians). This is what we should prepare ourselves for.

I agree with the essence of your comment, but we shouldn't minimize Church Dogma, its dogmatic theology---dogma, doctrine, is necessary for the church to preserve, as belief in it, is necessary for the salvation of the faithful.
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 01:57:15 AM »

Overemphasizing dogma is like re-learning the alphabet over and over

In a way, I've done that before.
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 05:52:04 AM »

And why do we have dogma? To safeguard the faithful. The question is does the behaviour of Orthodox in their relations with other groups confuse that message or not?
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2013, 01:47:54 AM »

Hello friends!

I was asked to provide sources for these quotes, and here I will provide them! Apologies, these things were done or said in Greek, and there have been no full translations unsurprisingly (I mean, not even many holy fathers have been translated yet!) of these works or sayings, especially back when the internet was in its infancy the only places these things were published were in newspapers and books.

For the then Archimandrite Bartholomew, speaking of the canons and praying with heretics and his recommendations to change or repeal them, his work:

Ἀρχιμ. ΒΑΡΘΟΛΟΜΑΙΟΥ ΑΡΧΟΝΤΩΝΗ, Περί τήν κωδικοποίησιν τῶν Ἱ. Κανόνων καίτῶν κανονικῶν διατάξεων ἐν τῇ Ὀρθοδόξῳ Ἐκκλησίᾳ, ἈνάλεκταΒλατάδων 6,Θεσσαλονίκη 1970,σελ.27.31.70

---------------

For the quote from Patriarch Athenagoras speaking about exclusiveness of truth not being necessarily in the Orthodox Church:

Βλ. ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΥ ΜΟΥΡΑΤΙΔΟΥ, ἔνθ’ἀνωτ., σελ. 29 καί τοῦ αὐτοῦ, Οἱ Ἱεροί Κανόνες στόχος καί ἑδραίωμα τῆς Ὀρθοδοξίας. Ἀπάντησις, εἰς τόν σεβασμιώτατον ἀρχιεπίσκοπον Θυατείρων καίΜ.Βρεττανίας κ.Ἀθηναγόραν,Ἀθῆναι1972,σελ.21-22

-----------

Patriarch Bartholomew speaking of not wishing to convince heretics to a different truth than their own:

«Καθολική»,22-7-2003,σελ.4 καί 5 καί ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ, Ἀντιοικουμενιστικά,Ἀθῆναι2004,σελ.24-26

------------

Patriarch Bartholomew speaking that root of differences between christians and muslims is politics not faith (LUCKILY SPOKEN IN ENGLISH!):

here you go for that quote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2N7vEnxOO5UC&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=Islam+in+a+pluralistic+world+2005+bartholomew&source=bl&ots=rwkSDtSG_8&sig=rqqJVe1d521MayHnDmOqeoJzta8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VjVbUoWACa_8yAGR54EQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Islam%20in%20a%20pluralistic%20world%202005%20bartholomew&f=false

At the conference in Vienna, Islam in a Pluralistic World November of 2005, his address

page 304



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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 08:03:45 AM »

^ In the English page you provide, just what do you find offensive? One may disagree about his representations about modern Turkish society which, given the religious and demographic composition of modern Turkey is not what we in the west would consider "pluralistic". As an alternative, for example, would you argue that living with jihad, oppression and fear are preferable to peaceful coexistence? Should he encourage armed resistance as an alternative, or something in between, whatever that might be?

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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2013, 10:09:19 PM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2013, 10:18:17 PM »

Quote
"Therefore, it is important that the effort to endeavor to bridge the differences between Orthodox Churches is not an effort associated with already achieved steadfast unity, but a deeper, further and consolidated effort, to achieve a uniformity at the possibility in overcoming various emerging issues," he said further.

The rest was nice enough, but just what kind of uniformity is HAH talking about here?
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2013, 10:33:54 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2013, 10:41:59 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.

"Yes! Because the Inquisition was radical and even the Catholics reject and regret it. Part of the Catholic tradition is that of non-violence."

So just as you and Anabaptists shy away from the Batenburgers of their tradition, so do most contemporary Catholics want to reconsider the violent excesses of their own tradition in light of the rest of their faith. As my professor has mentioned, there were apparently more (non-violent) Third Order Franciscans in Europe than all of the Crusaders together. They opposed violent action and urged dialogue, language-learning, and prayer to overcome conflict, heresy, non-Christians, etc.

So we should be willing to forgive them their trespasses even if they do not ask for it or seem to deserve it, unless of course we're really supposed to be polemical and grudge-bearing.
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2013, 10:47:01 PM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.
I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.
That was hundreds of years ago.  Didn't Jesus say something to Peter about forgiving 70 X 7? Shocked
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 12:01:54 AM »

Maintaining a dialogue and a normal relationship with the entire world is far more important than ensuring our dogmatic existence

What?

Plus one to the "what?" column. 

I suppose "dogmatic existence" needs further explanation, as otherwise the sentence seems deeply misguided.
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 12:35:30 AM »

YiM,

You must enjoy hating for hating's sake.  Otherwise, I don't get it. 

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

So he attends church services with the Pope when he's in Rome.  I understand why some Orthodox would have a problem with him, but why should you?  Your disagreements with Patriarch Bartholomew are on a more fundamental level.  You reject icons and speculate about Our Lady's sexual history.  Compared to you, Pope Francis is St Cyril of Alexandria.  I'd rush to go to his church too if yours was the alternative.   

Quote
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?

Even without the RC's, EO are already linked with those responsible for the butchering of Christians and others--they are in communion with themselves.  Protestants are not innocent.  Who is?   

Quote
The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).

Defying all canons, lol.

Quote
The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Pope John Paul II apologised.  Have Protestants done so?   
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 01:01:45 AM »


 police
Actually, the inquisitional courts were far more humane than the secular courts. All the things you described is what happened when the guilty party was handed over to the secular authorities. Former Catholic here!
 Grin
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 04:34:07 AM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism.  

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

His All Holiness is not lying in the foregoing statement which should be studied because it explains and refutes all the paranoiac, unfounded, and malicious motives too often ascribed to him, asserting compromise of our Holy Orthodoxy, in his ecumenical initiatives.
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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2013, 08:25:06 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 08:49:57 AM »

Quote
"Therefore, it is important that the effort to endeavor to bridge the differences between Orthodox Churches is not an effort associated with already achieved steadfast unity, but a deeper, further and consolidated effort, to achieve a uniformity at the possibility in overcoming various emerging issues," he said further.

The rest was nice enough, but just what kind of uniformity is HAH talking about here?

Solving common problems and not killing each other would be one. That's clear if one has read his published works rather than out of context cherry picked snippets.

HAH is not seeking one religion at the expense of truth and the salvific message of Our Church.

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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 08:51:37 AM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.

I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism.  

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

His All Holiness is not lying in the foregoing statement which should be studied because it explains and refutes all the paranoiac, unfounded, and malicious motives too often ascribed to him, asserting compromise of our Holy Orthodoxy, in his ecumenical initiatives.

Amen.x3
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 08:55:35 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

It's a Finnish thing too. What's his title in Slavonic?
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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 08:58:10 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

It's a Finnish thing too. What's his title in Slavonic?

"Cвятейший" as for other patriarchs but Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Romania or Bulgaria.
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 09:11:01 AM »

Is there an English equivalent?
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 09:14:56 AM »

Is there an English equivalent?

Holiness?
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 09:39:35 AM »

The Patriarch of Moscow currently addresses the Ecumenical Patriarch as "Your Holiness."  Use of "His Holiness" among all the Patriarchs is a rather recent development.  The Greek practice maintains use of "His Beatitude," for the "Heads" of the Ancient Patriarchates, and the other Patriarchs, of Russia, Georgia, Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria.
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2013, 09:45:57 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

When His All Holiness celebrates the Divine Liturgy in the Church of Russia and the other Patriarchates, its used when they chant his Anthem, (Pheme):

"Vartholomeo, to Pan Hagiotatu Ke Oecumenico Patriarchu, Polla ta Eti."
"Bartholomew, the All Holy and Ecumenical Patriarch, Many Years."
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 09:53:10 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

When His All Holiness celebrates the Divine Liturgy in the Church of Russia and the other Patriarchates, its used when they chant his Anthem, (Pheme):

"Vartholomeo, to Pan Hagiotatu Ke Oecumenico Patriarchu, Polla ta Eti."
"Bartholomew, the All Holy and Ecumenical Patriarch, Many Years."


It's not in Slavonic.
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 08:30:12 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?



Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.

"Yes! Because the Inquisition was radical and even the Catholics reject and regret it. Part of the Catholic tradition is that of non-violence."

So just as you and Anabaptists shy away from the Batenburgers of their tradition, so do most contemporary Catholics want to reconsider the violent excesses of their own tradition in light of the rest of their faith. As my professor has mentioned, there were apparently more (non-violent) Third Order Franciscans in Europe than all of the Crusaders together. They opposed violent action and urged dialogue, language-learning, and prayer to overcome conflict, heresy, non-Christians, etc.

So we should be willing to forgive them their trespasses even if they do not ask for it or seem to deserve it, unless of course we're really supposed to be polemical and grudge-bearing.

The inquisition was not just a radical sect of the RC church, but rather sanctioned completely by the church.  Not just for a short while either, but over a long span of time.  The pope himself authorized it.

The Batenburgers were a SMALL break off sect who were not accepted at all by most of the Anabaptists.  One of the most important teachings that the Anabaptists cling to is to "love your enemies" and non-resistance.  If this was the entire Anabaptist faith, practicing for many many years, gruesome torture and murder on other Christians, then you'd have a point.  (This would be like saying if Bishop Gregory of Colorado went on a killing rampage, the entire EO church is responsible. - a small break of sect going nuts --- LOL -- and no I can't imagine him doing that... but just making a comparison)

The RC church itself, the Pope, and clergy (and it's workers), are responsible for the horrendous gruesome murders of many Anabaptists.  Fully sanctioned and promoted by the RC church itself.   Sure they can regret it, but it kind of makes a joke out of their "succession" as most would be in full violation of their own canon.  With so much blood on their hands of fellow Christians, I can't understand why the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew would be interesting in mending ties....

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« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2013, 08:32:03 PM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.
I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.
That was hundreds of years ago.  Didn't Jesus say something to Peter about forgiving 70 X 7? Shocked

Yes, but does a good tree bear bad fruit?
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 08:33:59 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.

"Yes! Because the Inquisition was radical and even the Catholics reject and regret it. Part of the Catholic tradition is that of non-violence."

So just as you and Anabaptists shy away from the Batenburgers of their tradition, so do most contemporary Catholics want to reconsider the violent excesses of their own tradition in light of the rest of their faith. As my professor has mentioned, there were apparently more (non-violent) Third Order Franciscans in Europe than all of the Crusaders together. They opposed violent action and urged dialogue, language-learning, and prayer to overcome conflict, heresy, non-Christians, etc.

So we should be willing to forgive them their trespasses even if they do not ask for it or seem to deserve it, unless of course we're really supposed to be polemical and grudge-bearing.


This wasn't a small part of their history.

You can go back much further, but for argument's sake, start at the Albigenses, Waldenses, and through the reformation all the way to the 1800's.   They have butchered so many for so long.
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 08:34:55 PM »

Are you into that stuff the guy was drinking in 'Altered States'?

 Huh
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2013, 08:36:01 PM »

YiM,

You must enjoy hating for hating's sake.  Otherwise, I don't get it. 

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

So he attends church services with the Pope when he's in Rome.  I understand why some Orthodox would have a problem with him, but why should you?  Your disagreements with Patriarch Bartholomew are on a more fundamental level.  You reject icons and speculate about Our Lady's sexual history.  Compared to you, Pope Francis is St Cyril of Alexandria.  I'd rush to go to his church too if yours was the alternative.   

Quote
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?

Even without the RC's, EO are already linked with those responsible for the butchering of Christians and others--they are in communion with themselves.  Protestants are not innocent.  Who is?   

Quote
The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).

Defying all canons, lol.

Quote
The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Pope John Paul II apologised.  Have Protestants done so?   

Nope.  Of course, the protestants also butchered the Anabaptists.
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« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2013, 08:40:35 PM »

 Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.
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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2013, 10:24:08 PM »

Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.

I have not found this forum to be against those who oppose Orthodoxy or its beliefs.  It's not in the rules.  Rather, there is open dialog and even heated debate tolerated.   It's a matter of fairness and following the rules.  It's a matter of not cussing.   Also I do participate within the bounds of the rules on many other sections on this forum.  Free for All as stated to my understanding, is about "hot topics & debate".  

These rules are important.  Such as in "Faith Issues" if an Orthodox Christian was asking about infant baptism (or having an issue with it) needing support from Orthodox Christians, it would not be appropriate for somebody to chime in and say "it's a heresy and your church is fake", as they were seeking help from other Orthodox Christians.   In that section however, any non EO can help EO Christians with their doctrine (so long as it is correct - and I have done), or correct false statements made of other faiths..... Even chime in with non loaded questions.

However in a Free for All section intended to have debate, it can get rather rowdy, so long as the thread isn't hijacked (from what I've seen - and learned it the hard way).  It gives both EO and non EO a place to debate, throw jabs, come to understandings, etc.  It's gutsy.

Anyway, I try to follow the rules.  It's "their" simple machines forum & host... "Their" domain, "their" setup.  I'm a guest.

Though religion and politics can be passionate and heated subjects (and I'm not winning a popularity contest on this forum) you'd be surprised how much we actually AGREE ON.  I'd say 97% of Christianity we'd agree on.  However, it's easy to compartmentalize the 3% where there are issues and heated debates ensue.  You are welcome to PM me any time, and we can talk about all that we do agree on!

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« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 10:36:52 AM »

Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.

I have not found this forum to be against those who oppose Orthodoxy or its beliefs.  It's not in the rules.  Rather, there is open dialog and even heated debate tolerated.   It's a matter of fairness and following the rules.  It's a matter of not cussing.   Also I do participate within the bounds of the rules on many other sections on this forum.  Free for All as stated to my understanding, is about "hot topics & debate".  

These rules are important.  Such as in "Faith Issues" if an Orthodox Christian was asking about infant baptism (or having an issue with it) needing support from Orthodox Christians, it would not be appropriate for somebody to chime in and say "it's a heresy and your church is fake", as they were seeking help from other Orthodox Christians.   In that section however, any non EO can help EO Christians with their doctrine (so long as it is correct - and I have done), or correct false statements made of other faiths..... Even chime in with non loaded questions.

However in a Free for All section intended to have debate, it can get rather rowdy, so long as the thread isn't hijacked (from what I've seen - and learned it the hard way).  It gives both EO and non EO a place to debate, throw jabs, come to understandings, etc.  It's gutsy.

Anyway, I try to follow the rules.  It's "their" simple machines forum & host... "Their" domain, "their" setup.  I'm a guest.

Though religion and politics can be passionate and heated subjects (and I'm not winning a popularity contest on this forum) you'd be surprised how much we actually AGREE ON.  I'd say 97% of Christianity we'd agree on.  However, it's easy to compartmentalize the 3% where there are issues and heated debates ensue.  You are welcome to PM me any time, and we can talk about all that we do agree on!



Nice reality check. We've certainly disagreed a lot, but you are on the money here! Thanks! ( 97%? That may be at little high but.....)
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« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2013, 01:22:56 PM »

Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.

I have not found this forum to be against those who oppose Orthodoxy or its beliefs.  It's not in the rules.  Rather, there is open dialog and even heated debate tolerated.   It's a matter of fairness and following the rules.  It's a matter of not cussing.   Also I do participate within the bounds of the rules on many other sections on this forum.  Free for All as stated to my understanding, is about "hot topics & debate".  

These rules are important.  Such as in "Faith Issues" if an Orthodox Christian was asking about infant baptism (or having an issue with it) needing support from Orthodox Christians, it would not be appropriate for somebody to chime in and say "it's a heresy and your church is fake", as they were seeking help from other Orthodox Christians.   In that section however, any non EO can help EO Christians with their doctrine (so long as it is correct - and I have done), or correct false statements made of other faiths..... Even chime in with non loaded questions.

However in a Free for All section intended to have debate, it can get rather rowdy, so long as the thread isn't hijacked (from what I've seen - and learned it the hard way).  It gives both EO and non EO a place to debate, throw jabs, come to understandings, etc.  It's gutsy.

Anyway, I try to follow the rules.  It's "their" simple machines forum & host... "Their" domain, "their" setup.  I'm a guest.

Though religion and politics can be passionate and heated subjects (and I'm not winning a popularity contest on this forum) you'd be surprised how much we actually AGREE ON.  I'd say 97% of Christianity we'd agree on.  However, it's easy to compartmentalize the 3% where there are issues and heated debates ensue.  You are welcome to PM me any time, and we can talk about all that we do agree on!



Nice reality check. We've certainly disagreed a lot, but you are on the money here! Thanks! ( 97%? That may be at little high but.....)

Heh, you'd be really surprised.   I bet we both agree that Esau must have been horrendously hairy seeing that Jacob fooled Isaac with goat "fur".  LOL  We are talking... bad.

No really, we would agree on so much.  The virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, the Gnostics being heretics, that Christ wanted us to love our enemies... etc. etc.

It's easy to compartmentalize issues and get worked up rather than seeing the broader picture.   My disagreement with iconography for example would be one of those issues.... Yes, I disagree with the usage of icons... but icons are not 100% of Christianity either.   Or the ironic position I find myself in witnessing Ecumenism which I believe violates the EO canon, yet I'm not even within the EO faith at this point in my life.  But ecumenism is churchy, and has nothing to do with "feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.".    So I do believe in that understanding, despite the issues that I directly confront, we should all see that "most of us" are just trying to do the will of God.  I think we'd agree on most things, it's just compartmentalized issues that get talked about mostly here.

In this case I believe that the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is in direct betrayal of the Canon, through ecumenism, through holding services with the RC.  I am puzzled why the EO Patriarch would want an eventual end to the G. schism, which would undoubtedly lead to the merging of communions with the RC church.   The RC church has centuries (nearly a millennium) of brutal and torturous blood on its hands (leaving the crusades out of this)..... Any sense of succession would be obliterated via canon which excommunicates clergy who murder.... if it was honored.  It would be much different if there were isolated incidents through the years with the RC church.   But it was through such a long length of time, murder supported by the church - which killed (in very brutal ways) so many Christians.

To (eventually) merge communions with the RC church, is to also merge their history and place responsibility with the EO church.

 
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