OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 30, 2014, 06:43:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Rome creates parallel Catholicate in India  (Read 8558 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« on: February 10, 2005, 04:25:46 PM »

For the first time in the history of the Church, the Roman Church officially created a parallel Catholicate in India yesterday. Any meaning for future dialogues of Malankara Orthodox Church with RC?   Read the news about the new developments in India:

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IER20050210105744&Page=R&Title=Kerala&Topic=0&

The Pope of Rome has no authority to intevene in the jurisdiction of Oriental Orthodox Catholicose of the East. This act is against all existing understanding and the dialogues for unity. But India is a secular nation, where there is no ruler to support only the Orthodox church (as in the case of Russia or Armenia). So Rome or any one else has the freedom to so anything in India.


-Paul
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2005, 04:48:42 PM »

What the Holy father has done is raise the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church from metropolitan to major archepiscopal status. And this is not the first time this has been done in India, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church received the same major archepiscopal status in 1993.

Fr. Deacon Lance
« Last Edit: February 10, 2005, 04:49:28 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2005, 05:05:05 PM »

What the Holy father has done is raise the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church from metropolitan to major archepiscopal status.  And this is not the first time this has been done in India, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church received the same major archepiscopal status in 1993.

Fr. Deacon Lance


This is not the understanding I get from reading newspapers in vernacular. The new Archbishop claimed that the Malankara Catholic church is now autonomous. He started using the title 'Catholicos'.

The Malankara Catholic church was created by Rome after seperating two bishops from the Orthodox Church.

It was ok to raise the Malankara Catholic church to an archbishopric, but the title 'Catholicos' was given.  It was not necessary to give such a title, when the head of the Orthodox Church in India is having the same title.  In Orthodox understanding Patriarch, Catholicos, Pope etc. are equivalent titles. The head of the Indian, Armenian and Georgian Churches are called Catholicos.

In essence,  the Pope of Rome is also an Archbishop, being the Archbishop of Rome. He has no authority to intervene in the jurisdiction of India, which is the Apostolic See of St. Thomas.

Moreover in one news he is claiming the title "Malankara Metropolitan", sort of equating the new position to that of the 'Malankara metropolitan'. But the Supreme Court of India approves only one Metropolitan as the 'Malankara Metropolitan' , i.e. the Catholicos of the Malankara Orthodox Church (who is also the Malankara Metropolitan).

Rome cannot do this in Russia, because the ruling government is strongly supporting Russian Orthodox Church. Rome is doing this in India miusing the secular nature of the nation and minority status of Indian Christians.

Paul


Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2005, 05:15:02 PM »

Paul,

In Catholic understanding, Rome certainly does have this authority, which is why we do not agree with the Catholic Church. But this doesn't really affect the Orthodox Church because the Catholic Church has no power over the Orthodox Church.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2005, 05:19:31 PM »

Any meaning for future dialogues of Malankara Orthodox Church with RC?

I would say that this would have a negative impact on any dialogues. I wouldn't be surprised if this move discouraged the Indian Orthodox from wanting to sit down and dialogue at all. This could be construed as a challenge to the legitimacy of the Catholicose of India/Malankara Metropolitan.

But Anastasios is right, they call the head of the few Coptic Catholics "Patriarch of Alexandria" and the head of the Catholic Armenians "Patriarch of Cilicia and of the Armenians". This does not make it so.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2005, 05:26:19 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
SaintShenouti
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 224


« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2005, 05:35:28 PM »

Indeed, brothers Anastasios and Nikolas are both very much in the right  I concur- Rome should stay in Rome!
Logged
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2005, 06:06:10 PM »

Dear all, I couldn't believe it when I read this new development in news. I never expected this act from Rome.

The Malankara Orthodox Church is not in very good terms with the Malankara Catholic Church, but they are in good terms with the Syro-Malabar Church (which is another section of RC in India seperated in 16th century), largely because the Syro-Malabar Church does not try to convert Orthodox people. Frequently you will find articles in official publication of the Malankara Catholic Church against the Malankara Orthodox, for example in one article they are challenging the Orthodox Catholicos to unite with Rome. Then there are articles of a backfiring nature coming from Orthodox publications. This is continuing for many years.

The official dialogue in India is largely between Syro-Malabar and Orthodox. Even in the OO official dialogue with RC, Indian RC  representation is from Syro-Malabar. Syro-Malabar does not attempt to convert Orthodox.

As Nick observed, this may affect the ongoing dialogue. Let us see the official response.

-Paul

Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2005, 07:03:09 PM »

What the Holy father has done is raise the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church from metropolitan to major archepiscopal status.  And this is not the first time this has been done in India, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church received the same major archepiscopal status in 1993.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Dn. Lance,

I don't have any problem at all if the Malankara Catholics have their status raised to major archiepiscopal rank.  I do question the "awarding" of the title of Catholicos, however. 

First, it is my understanding that both Latin and Eastern Canon Law do not have any such title.  If they had elevated him to Patriarch, then I would have no problem, because it is a canonical title.  Why adopt a non-existant out of the blue? 

Second, a Catholicos in Orthodox usage is equal to a Patriarch.  But in Catholic usage, a Major Archbishop is not equal to a Patriarch.  Major Archbishoprics have a measure of dependence on Rome which Patriarchates don't.  How can a Major Archbishop also be a Catholicos?  It sends a mixed signal. 

I think most people would agree that I'm relatively "Catholic-friendly", but I am not sure how to interpret the "creation" of a "Catholicosate" by the RC's in India, given the above, as anything other than the creation of parallel church structures, and given the potential for sending mixed signals, I'm not sure if it is too much to say the underlying intent is to deceive people.  I want to be fair and give them the benefit of the doubt, but this troubles me.  Rome is not this daring with the Ukrainian situation, where many are clamouring for the recognition of a Patriarchate in Kiev, knowing that Moscow and everyone else in the EO world would be royally pissed, so why be this daring in India, where relations between Malankara Catholics and the Orthodox aren't the best, and, to my knowledge, the former have not been clamouring for a Catholicosate?  Because the OO aren't as influential? 

I would appreciate it if you could enlighten me regarding the Catholic canonical issues I raised above.  For the time being, I don't think I would oppose an immediate suspension of relations with Rome by the Church.             
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2005, 09:53:51 PM »


The Malankara Orthodox Church is not in very good terms with the Malankara Catholic Church, but they are in good terms with the Syro-Malabar Church (which is another section of RC in India seperated in 16th century), largely because the Syro-Malabar Church does not try to convert Orthodox people. Frequently you will find articles in official publication of the Malankara Catholic Church against the Malankara Orthodox, for example in one article they are challenging the Orthodox Catholicos to unite with Rome. Then there are articles of a backfiring nature coming from Orthodox publications. This is continuing for many years.


Unfortunately Paul, proselytism by the Coptic Catholics has also been a stumbling block in Coptic Orthodox/Roman Catholic relations, which otherwise are quite friendly.  Consider the following from http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-apdxII-2-ecclesio.htm:

Oriental Orthodox concern about the activity of Eastern Catholics was mentioned indirectly in the Common Declaration of Paul VI and Shenouda III in 1973, which rejected all forms of proselytism as incompatible with the relationship that should exist between the two churches:

GǪWe reject all forms of proselytism, in the sense of acts by which persons seek to disturb each other’s communities by recruiting new members from each other through methods, or because of attitudes of mind, which are opposed to the exigencies of Christian love or to what should characterize the relationships between Churches. Let it cease, where it may exist.61

This statement was a response to Pope Shenouda’s complaint that Coptic Catholics were proselytizing among Coptic Orthodox in Egypt. The Coptic Catholic Patriarch was reminded of this statement in a letter from Pope Paul soon thereafter.


Perhaps the Catholicose of the East should make the Roman pontiff aware of the concerns from our (the Oriental Orthodox) side.  May God preserve His Orthodox Church in India.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2005, 10:54:28 PM »

But more importantly should the prayers continue to spread the Orthodox Church of India under the EP to many poor and uneducated cities.The city of West Bengal may be a small parish but with the help of the IOCC, humanitarian aid and full emergency relief to communities is most important.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2005, 08:10:40 AM »

Dear Alex,

Have you read the PM I sent you a couple of months ago?  What do you think? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2005, 09:36:47 AM »

But more importantly should the prayers continue to spread the Orthodox Church of India under the EP to many poor and uneducated cities.The city of West Bengal may be a small parish but with the help of the IOCC, humanitarian aid and full emergency relief to communities is most important.

Hi Alex.  What exactly do you mean by the "EP"?
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2005, 09:42:41 AM »

Paul,

"This is not the understanding I get from reading newspapers in vernacular. The new Archbishop claimed that the Malankara Catholic church is now autonomous. He started using the title 'Catholicos'. It was ok to raise the Malankara Catholic church to an archbishopric, but the title 'Catholicos' was given."

The Syro-Malankar Church was already autonomous, but the new status makes it more so. He may have started using the title Catholicos much in the same way the Ukrainian Catholic Archbishop uses the title patriarch but this title was not given by Rome.

"The Malankara Catholic church was created by Rome after seperating two bishops from the Orthodox Church."

The Syro-Malankar Catholic Church was created when two Orthodox bishops sought communion with Rome of their own volition. This was one of the few instances missionary or political pressure was not involved.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2005, 10:30:21 AM »

Phil,

You are correct the title of Catholicos does not exist as a seperate rank in the Catholic Church and it is not addressed in the CCEO. However, I do recall a document which stated that the Chaldean and Armenian Catholic patriarchs would be more properly titled catholicos but I have never seen either use that title.

The only difference betwen a patriarch and major archbishop in the Catholic Church, other than the title itself, is the patriarch is enthroned immediately upon election by his synod. The major archbishop must petition the Holy Father for confirmation after his election by the synod before enthronement.

The Ukrainians, Syro-Malabars, and Syro-Malankars all petioned Rome to be raised to patriarchal status none have gotten better than major archepiscopal status.

A question: It was my understanding that among the Oriental Orthodox the title catholicos was only used by the Armenians and Syrians, among the Armenians a catholicos is superior to a patriarch among the Syrians a catholicos is subordinate to the patriarch. Is this no longer the case?

The official announcement form Rome:

10-February-2005 -- Vatican Information Service

PONTIFICAL ACTS

VATICAN CITY, FEB 10, 2005 (VIS) - The Holy Father elevated the "sui iuris" Metropolitan Church of the Syro-Malankars to the rank of Major Archiepiscopal Church, and he promoted Metropolitan Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios Malancharuvil O.I.C. of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars, India, to the dignity of major archbishop of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars. The new metropolitan archbishop was born in Ullannor, India, in 1935, and ordained a priest in 1960. He was ordained a bishop in 1978 and appointed as metropolitan archbishop of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars in 1995. The Syro-Malankara Church has around 450,000 faithful divided in five eparchies and served by 632 priests, of whom 511 are eparchial and 121 religious. A total of 643 seminarians study in five seminaries, and there are over 2,030 female religious in 17 communities The Church also has 22 ecclesiastical institutions, 449 educational centers (schools, universities, etc.), and 466 charitable institutes.

Fr. Deacon Lance
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 10:31:37 AM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2005, 11:07:16 AM »

So the link in the initial post that has "The Malankara Catholic Church was on Thursday raised to the Archiepiscopal status and Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios elevated as the Major Archbishop and Catholicos of the Malankara Catholic Church." is wrong?  I don't doubt it is but one would hope that something coming out of Kerala itself might be more carefully redacted.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2005, 11:08:19 AM »



Hi Alex. What exactly do you mean by the "EP"?

He likely means the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  There are Eastern Orthodox parishes in India.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2005, 11:24:29 AM »

Tony,

The Syro-Malankar Catholic website also uses the title catholicos so I think it is a case of the Church appropriating the title without an ofiical granting of it by Rome, much as the Ukrainians have done.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2005, 11:51:50 AM »

Deacon Lance,

Ah. 
http://malankara.net/
has "The Syro-Malankara Catholic Church was today elevated to the status of Major Archiepiscopal Church and its Metropolitan as the first Major Archbishop Catholicos." the use of the passive voice suggests that it was Rome that did it. 

Tony
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Thomas Daniel (Reji)
Chevalier
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Archdiocese of Syriac Orthodox Church
Posts: 308


Proud to say belongs to Syriac Orthodox Church


WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2005, 12:25:33 PM »

Shlomo

I think it is an act of “Fishing in the troubled water”. My fellow OO brothers from India can understand it. As the internal fight between two faction within the Malankara OO church, the Roman Church is trying to confuse the SOC & IOC faithful by declaring the Title “Catholicose: to their Major Archbishop. Hope the hierarchy  of both faction of Malankara OO church will understand and try to stop the present ongoing trouble. Else it will cost a lot to OO church in Malankara.

Mor Ephrem wrote “Second, a Catholicos in Orthodox usage is equal to a Patriarch”. I do disagree on this. This might be in IOC view or in some independent orthodox church, but for SOC Catholicose is second in hierarchy.

The JSOC church in Malankara is an integral part of the Syriac Orthodox Church with the Patriarch of Antioch as its supreme head. The local head of the church in Malankara is the Catholicose, ordained by and accountable to the Patriarch of Antioch. http://catholicose.org/PauloseII/Catholicate.htm

In Malankara both faction exists, and that is the fact. So when you refer orthodoxy in India, please identify the church with its official name. None can claim the exclusivity of the Orthodoxy in Malankara.
Logged

Oh.. Morth Mariam Yoldath Aloho (Mother Of God)Pray For Us
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2005, 12:32:34 PM »

"The use of the passive voice suggests that it was Rome that did it."

"...the Roman Church is trying to confuse the SOC & IOC faithful by declaring the Title “Catholicose: to their Major Archbishop."

Again the official statement from Rome says nothing about the title catholicos.  It does not exist in the CCEO.  However, I do not think the assumption of this title by the Archbishop is an attempt at deception anymore than the assumption of the title patriarch by the Ukrainian Archbishop is.  Do you actually think people in this day and age of instantaneous communication are going to be confused about who their hierarch is or what communion he belongs to?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2005, 02:40:16 PM »

A question:  It was my understanding that among the Oriental Orthodox the title catholicos was only used by the Armenians and Syrians, among the Armenians a catholicos is superior to a patriarch among the Syrians a catholicos is subordinate to the patriarch. Is this no longer the case?

As Thomas Daniel alluded to, it is not set in stone.  It is also my understanding that in Armenian usage, a Catholicos outranks a Patriarch, while in Syrian use, a Patriarch outranks a Catholicos.  Regardless of the title, however, which is an honourific matter, and is interpreted differently by the different Churches, I think it is clear that at some level, when it comes to the heads of Churches, the titles are equivalent.  For instance, the Catholicos of all Armenians is equal to the Patriarch of Antioch: one cannot claim that, since the Syrians regard a Catholicos as lower than a Patriarch, the Patriarch for that reason is superior to the Catholicos, or vice versa.  Because they are heads of autocephalous Churches, they are equal, regardless of the title.  I believe the same holds true in EO practice: Patriarch Alexei is equal to Catholicos Ilia who is equal to Archbishop Anastasios who is equal to Metropolitan Sawa, in spite of the different titles, because of the status of each in their respective Churches.  This is the basis for the IOC's contention that the Catholicos of the East is equal to the Patriarch of Antioch: each is the head of an autocephalous Church (discussion of the particulars of the Indian situation is somewhat outside the confines of this discussion, and that is why I am avoiding a response to some of Thomas' particular points).   

Quote
The official announcement form Rome:

10-February-2005 -- Vatican Information Service

PONTIFICAL ACTS

VATICAN CITY, FEB 10, 2005 (VIS) - The Holy Father elevated the "sui iuris" Metropolitan Church of the Syro-Malankars to the rank of Major Archiepiscopal Church, and he promoted Metropolitan Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios Malancharuvil O.I.C. of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars, India, to the dignity of major archbishop of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars. The new metropolitan archbishop was born in Ullannor, India, in 1935, and ordained a priest in 1960. He was ordained a bishop in 1978 and appointed as metropolitan archbishop of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars in 1995. The Syro-Malankara Church has around 450,000 faithful divided in five eparchies and served by 632 priests, of whom 511 are eparchial and 121 religious. A total of 643 seminarians study in five seminaries, and there are over 2,030 female religious in 17 communities The Church also has 22 ecclesiastical institutions, 449 educational centers (schools, universities, etc.), and 466 charitable institutes.

I am happy to see that the official announcement from Rome, in both English and Italian (in the other thread), does not reference the title Catholicos.  If the Malankara Catholics are appropriating that title to themselves, that is one thing, and I believe that is similar to the Ukrainian situation, which does not bother me; after all, they can claim whatever they want--in the end, it's relatively meaningless unless Rome accepts it.  I am surprised, though, that they may indeed have been claiming the title Catholicos prior to this, in much the same way the Ukrainians have been claiming Patriarchal status.  I didn't see that coming, as Indian Catholics generally tend to lean more on the Latin side of things than the Orthodox, including, in my experience, the Malankara Catholics, the most "Orthodox" of the bunch. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2005, 02:52:00 PM »

He likely means the Ecumenical Patriarchate. There are Eastern Orthodox parishes in India.

Interesting.  Are the folks EO immigrants or converts from Hinduism.  I hope they aren't apostates from Oriental Orthodoxy.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2005, 02:57:10 PM »

I think it's a mix of Greek immigrants and local converts.  I once read a short write-up on their history, which was nice.  As I remember, it claimed that the Greek mission to Calcutta was "bringing Orthodoxy back to India after so many centuries" or some idea like that.  I chuckled.  Smiley 

FWIW, I wouldn't call converts from OO to EO "apostates". 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2005, 03:17:59 PM »

As I remember, it claimed that the Greek mission to Calcutta was "bringing Orthodoxy back to India after so many centuries" or some idea like that. I chuckled. Smiley

 Cheesy Yeah, that is a ridiculous statement! Maybe the Indians should establish a mission to "bring Orthodoxy back to Greece". Wink

But seriously, I thought the the EP was on good terms with the IOC.  What's up with a cheap shot like that?


FWIW, I wouldn't call converts from OO to EO "apostates".

What would you call them? Converts? Not trying to start a beef or anything, just curious.

You know that I support unity between the two families of Orthodoxy. My intention was to say that I hope the EO were not proselytizing among the OO in India, and the above mentioned parishes do not include people who left the IOC or the SOC for the Byzantine Church. I would hope that accords similar to those that stand between the EO and OO Churches of Antioch would exist in India as well. From the Statement of the Orthodox Church of Antioch On the Relations between the Eastern and Syrian Orthodox Churches, 1991 (http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state05.html):


Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.

Since I've heard that the IOC is on good terms with the EP, such an understanding doesn't seem too far-fetched.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 03:38:25 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2005, 04:13:43 PM »

Dear Dn. Lance, Thanks for revealing the truth that the Major Archbishop was not given the title 'Catholicos.

I was discussing this with an elderly person. What Thomas Daniel said may be correct. The title 'Catholicos' is assumed to confuse the two OO sections and increase the Malankara Catholic church in number.

I am sure the Malankara Orthodox church will react to this and educate people about the truth through official and unofficial publications.

-Paul
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2005, 04:56:09 PM »

But seriously, I thought the the EP was on good terms with the IOC. What's up with a cheap shot like that?

My understanding is that we are on good terms with the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  This was not an official document from the Patriarchate that I read, but simply something one of the Greek missionaries in Calcutta was writing. 

Quote
What would you call them?  Converts?  Not trying to start a beef or anything, just curious. 

Good question.  I don't know what I'd call them.  If an OO goes EO, or vice versa, I suppose I'd just call them Orthodox. 

Quote
You know that I support unity between the two families of Orthodoxy.  My intention was to say that I hope the EO were not proselytizing among the OO in India, and the above mentioned parishes do not include people who left the IOC or the SOC for the Byzantine Church.

I don't think they are proselytising OO; I'm not sure how many of our people are there.  From what I've read, it seems to be mostly a Greek enterprise, with convert Bengalis. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2005, 05:00:12 PM »


Okay, thanks for the info!  Grin
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2005, 05:07:16 PM »

Shlomo

Mor Ephrem wrote “Second, a Catholicos in Orthodox usage is equal to a Patriarch”. I do disagree on this. This might be in IOC view or in some independent orthodox church, but for SOC Catholicose is second in hierarchy.


Hierarchy among Bishops in the Orthodox church is for administrative convenience, i.e. there is no theology about levels of hierarchy among bishops. In the Armenian Church,  Patriarch of Jerusalem is a level below Armenian Catholicos (i.e. in an administrative sense). Here, both are Bishops in their spiritual authority. But one has more authority over the jurisdiction, being centered in Armenia.  In Orthodox understanding, Patriarch, Catholicos, Pope are all bishops and they are equal to all other Bishops in the Synod.  Orthodox church does not give high importance to hierarchical levels.  In RC church they have Bishops Emeriti, Coadjutor Bishops, Titular Bishops, Auxiliary Bishops, Ordinary Bishops, Primates, Patriarchs and Major Archbishops, Curia, Diaconal Cardinals, Presbyteral Cardinals, Episcopal Cardinals, Cardinals of sacred college, and finally the Pope.

Regarding the SOC tradition, the SOC constitution clearly defines that though he is called Patriarch, his actual spiritual title is 'Bishop of Antioch'. This is the right Orthoox tradition, i.e. the old Syrian Orthodox way following true tradition.  In the same way Pope of Rome is the Bishop of Rome. The Orthodox hierarchical model is very simple. Stress of the Church is on other aspects, not on hierarchy.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in India that Catholicos is a subordinate title. This is partly due to the RC influence in our thinking about hierarchy, high importance to 'Simhasanam' (throne) of Rome given in certain RC dominated regions of Kerala.

The Catholicos in the lineage of St. Thomas was not subordinate in the early centuries. It is equal to saying that Apostle Thomas was subordinate, because canonically Catholicate of the East in the lineage of Apostle Thomas.

But for administrative convenience, to withstand certain persecution etc. the Catholicate agreed to be subordinate at one point (7th or 8th century due to Nestorian persecution). But that is not the true status, just a temporary adjustment for convenience.

Unfortunatley there is no theology in the Orthodox church about hierarchy, they are all Bishops, but some are head bishops of respective Synods - hence a special honor given to them. This is more related to discipline and administrative convenience than theology.

-Paul

Logged
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2005, 05:46:48 PM »

"The use of the passive voice suggests that it was Rome that did it."

"...the Roman Church is trying to confuse the SOC & IOC faithful by declaring the Title “Catholicose: to their Major Archbishop."

Again the official statement from Rome says nothing about the title catholicos. It does not exist in the CCEO. However, I do not think the assumption of this title by the Archbishop is an attempt at deception anymore than the assumption of the title patriarch by the Ukrainian Archbishop is. Do you actually think people in this day and age of instantaneous communication are going to be confused about who their hierarch is or what communion he belongs to?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,

I suppose the question is what are the people being told.  I see Rome doesn't have that he was made Catholicos(e), but the Malankara Catholic Church does and the way it is worded on their website seems to suggest Rome did it.  I think that this issue is slightly different from that of the Ukrainians, inasmuch as there is no canonical patriarchate of Kiev among Orthodox.  I don't know if the title Catholicos(e) goes with a geographic location or not, patriarchates and diocese usually do, at least among EOs.

I understand that some churches have asked Rome for a change in their status.  It is not up to me to comment on that except that it seems if one of us asked our boss for a promotion and it were denied then we started using the title we asked for but were denied that would be problematic.

"Do you actually think people in this day and age of instantaneous communication are going to be confused about who their hierarch is or what communion he belongs to?"  Not for one moment, nor have I suggested that.  Now, I have not been in Kerala, but to imagine that all are as cyber-connected as we are, or even as literate as we are would be a bit presumptuous.  I defer to Mor and others to that matter.  I think regardless of the status of communication people are not in the same situation as let's say 200 years ago.

It would be interesting to know what the Major Archbishop himself understands by his (or his church's claim) to a Catholicosate.

T

 
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2005, 07:11:09 PM »

Hi Tony,   In the RC hierarchy a Major Archbishop is equal to a Patriarch.  This means that the RC Patriarch of Antioch is also a Major Archbishop. This is why the Syro-Malankara Church started using the title 'Catholicos', which is the equivalent of Patriarch in the Eastern Church (St. Thomas tradition).   

When H.H. John Paul 11 visited Orthodox Catholicose of the East, the Pope said "I am the Pope of Rome and you are the Pope of Kottayam". The Pope may be knowing the truth, but unfortunately the uniates churches exist to create division.

-Paul
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2005, 09:35:03 PM »

Dear Paul,

I'd like to ask you to edit "Uniate" out of your post.  Although I am given to believe that Eastern Catholics in India don't mind that term and use it themselves (I've seen it in articles), some find it offensive. 

Do you know how much history there is to the Syro-Malankara Catholics using the title Catholicos?  I hadn't heard until now that they claimed that title for their head bishop in the way the Ukrainian Catholics claim the title of Patriarch for their Archbishop. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2005, 03:16:41 PM »

Ok Mor, I thought 'uniate'  is a commonly used word.

Logged
paul2004
Paul
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 314

OC.net


« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2005, 03:17:55 PM »

To read the history about how Malankara Catholic Church was formed, please read the coverstory of IOH.

http://www.orthodoxherald.com/coverstory.asp  (you need to subscribe to read this).

Also this:
http://www.orthodoxherald.com/churchnews13.asp

-Paul
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2005, 09:36:31 AM »

Paul,

A major archbishop is not equal to a patriarch. The difference betwen a patriarch and major archbishop in the Catholic Church, other than the title and precedence, is the patriarch is enthroned immediately upon election by his synod.  The major archbishop must petition the Holy Father for confirmation after his election by the synod before enthronement.  Not a large difference but a significant one.  The Pope could refuse communion with an elected patriarch but he cannot nullify his election, he can do so with a major archbishop.

My own feeling on the matter is the the head of any autonomous Catholic Church should be elected by his synod and enjoy the same powers and rights as a patriarch as defined in the CCEO.  The distinctions, other than title and honoroary precedence, made between patriarchal, major archepiscopal, and metropolitan should be dropped.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
SaintShenouti
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 224


« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2005, 01:34:58 PM »

I must say, all this talk of Catholicos this and Patriarch that is very wishy-washy to say the least, but to my knowledge, the state of heirarchy is H.H. Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas is Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, then H.H. Catholicos Baselios Marthoma Mathews II, head of the Malankara Indian Orthodox Church, and is the proper and true successor of St. Thomas (Correct me if I'm wrong Mor).

The issue is, why does Rome even bother? Indeed, the OO/RC agreement H.H. Pope Shenouda III and Pope Paul VI had seems violated if there is an intrusion to the See of St. Thomas. It is very much identical to our Coptic Catholic situation in Egypt (which has now, thank God, been on the decline). I would say something needs to be done- more conferences between Antioch, India and Rome.

I say foul play on the part of Rome. Very rude indeed.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 01:35:28 PM by SaintShenouti » Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2005, 01:41:24 PM »

I must say I don't quite understand the reaction.  I could if this were the creation of a new Eastern Catholic Church where there had been none.  But this church has been around for 75 years now and the only thing that has happened is that an existing Church has had its status raised.  A status that is more in keeping with Eastern tradition, a status that in fact mirrors the realtionship of the Malnakara Catholicate with the Syrian Patriarchate.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2005, 01:46:53 PM »


That may be the crux of the matter Deacon.  The fact that one title now "mirrors" the other, after all these years, seems to be something of a challenge as to who is the legitimate Catholicos of India.  Like if some group in Rome excommunicated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, became Orthodox, and started calling their leader the Orthodox Pope of Rome.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2005, 04:08:58 PM »

Antonius,

"That may be the crux of the matter Deacon.  The fact that one title now "mirrors" the other, after all these years, seems to be something of a challenge as to who is the legitimate Catholicos of India"

Once again it is the relationship not the title that is being mirrored.  Rome did not give him the title of Catholicos.

"Like if some group in Rome excommunicated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, became Orthodox, and started calling their leader the Orthodox Pope of Rome." 

Kind of like the Armenian patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem?

The point is Eastern Catholics, rightly or wrongly, take a great deal of pride in their Church's status.  For us it is recognition that we are mature Eastern Churches and has nothing to do with trying to questioning who is the legitimate hierarch of this or that place.  Frankly, most Eastern Catholic think very little about their Orthodox counterparts and certainly wouldn't factor them into the equation of requesting raising their Church's status although Rome often does.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2005, 04:41:00 PM »

I must say I don't quite understand the reaction. I could if this were the creation of a new Eastern Catholic Church where there had been none. But this church has been around for 75 years now and the only thing that has happened is that an existing Church has had its status raised. A status that is more in keeping with Eastern tradition, a status that in fact mirrors the realtionship of the Malnakara Catholicate with the Syrian Patriarchate.

FWIW, I was pleased that Rome didn't do what was originally reported: create a Catholicosate in India. 

The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and the Patriarchate of Antioch are two autocephalous Churches.  This is not the relationship which Rome now has with the Malankara Catholics.  Autonomy is the proper term for the latter, as you've said elsewhere (it would be better to compare Rome and the Malankara Catholics to Antioch and the Indian Jacobites, who are not autocephalous).   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2005, 04:48:40 PM »

Phil,

My apologies, I thought the independent branch called themselves the Indian Orthodox Church and those that recognized the Patriarch were the Malankara Syrian Orthodox.  What is the correct name for each Church?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,409


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2005, 04:53:07 PM »

No problem, it gets confusing even to me sometimes. 

Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (aka Indian Orthodox Church) = autocephalous
Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church (aka Syrian Orthodox Church of India, Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church) = autonomous
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2005, 07:19:21 PM »

Dear Deacon Lance,

I am writing to learn more about this, so I hope you won't take any of this as combative.


Once again it is the relationship not the title that is being mirrored. Rome did not give him the title of Catholicos.


Rome may not have given it to him, but based on what we have read here , it seems he has assumed it for himself whether Rome likes it or not. This reminds me of the situation in Egypt a few years ago, where things were friendly between Rome and Alexandria, but the Coptic Catholics were attempting to proselytize Coptic Orthodox left and right. Thankfully, after H.H. Pope Shenouda III wrote to the Pope of Rome, His Holiness wrote to the Coptic Catholics and asked them to stop. Is it possible that Rome and the Eastern Catholics of India each feel differently about the situation?

Also, how can he assume the title if Rome denied it to him?

Kind of like the Armenian patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem?

I think this is a little different. The Armenians were never under Constantinople. They were never under the EO Patriarch of that city. All of the Orthodox Christians of India were under one leader until the Portuguese showed up and split them.

As for Jerusalem, well, everyone seems to have a Patriarch there! ; )

Note: Self-edited to remove the term uniate, whic some find offensive. The post originally contained the qualifying statement (sorry Phil, I couldn't think of a better term. I mean no offense!)...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 12:48:44 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2005, 10:21:00 AM »

Antonious,

I am unsure of the realtions between the Catholcis and Orthodox in India perhaps Phil could shed some light on the situation?

As for the title, again it is not so much a denying, as the CCEO does not address this title.  The title given was major archbishop.  Prior to this they were a metropolitan church which means the Pope would select the hierarchs of this Church from lists of three drawn up by the Council of Hierarchs of the Malankar Catholic Church.  This is how my Church gets its bishops.  A major archepiscopal church has a Synod which elects all hierarchs including the major archbishop, who then petitions Rome for confirmation much like the Indian Jacobite Catholicos does with the Patriarch of Antioch or a Eastern Orthodox Autonomos Churrch has its chief hierarch confirmed by its Mother Church. 

How can he assume it?  He just does. You call your self Catholicos or Patriarch and have liturgical books printed with that in it.  What is Rome going to do?  Protest? Maybe.  Take any action? Unlikely to never.

As too the Armenian patriarchs I think you get my point though.  They really shouldn't be either but it is not a cause for animosity between EOs and OOs.  The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem shouldn't be either.

But for the Indian Church the Syro-Malabars are really the original church from which the Syro-Malankars split and went under the Syrian Patriarch and adopted his rite.  The case could be made the Syro Malabar Archbishop is the only one who can truly claim to be succesor of St. Thomas.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,797


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2005, 01:12:00 PM »

Hi Fr. Deacon! I understand your synopsis of how the titles are confirmed, etc. in the Roman Catholic communion. I still have some questions/comments though.


How can he assume it? He just does. You call your self Catholicos or Patriarch and have liturgical books printed with that in it. What is Rome going to do? Protest? Maybe. Take any action? Unlikely to never.


This situation seems strange to me. If I am understanding you (and others) correctly, he asked Rome for the title, Rome said no, and he took it anyway. Is that a correct assessment? If Rome sees that this is causing a flap with the Orthodox, why wouldn't Rome protest? I have a great deal of respect for the current Pope and see that he is quite diplomatic. I would think that he would be interested in keeping up good relations with the Orthodox, even though some of the prelates under him are not.


As too the Armenian patriarchs I think you get my point though. They really shouldn't be either but it is not a cause for animosity between EOs and OOs. The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem shouldn't be either.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that there should not be an Armenian or a Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem? Only an EO one? I always thought that the situation in Jerusalem was kind of unique because it is the birthplace of Christianity. Also, the experience of the Armenians is unique because they were scattered to the four winds and deprived of 3/4 or more of their homeland by the Turks, so it stands to reason that they would have prelates in a variety of places to minister to their scattered flock.

But I do understand your point. Ideally, there would not be three Apostolic Churches claiming to have Patriarchs of Alexandria, and the indigenous Orthodox Church would be the only one.

But for the Indian Church the Syro-Malabars are really the original church from which the Syro-Malankars split and went under the Syrian Patriarch and adopted his rite. The case could be made the Syro Malabar Archbishop is the only one who can truly claim to be succesor of St. Thomas.

I'm not sure if I agree with this assessment. I have only read two books on this subject (one by Leslie Brown and the other by and an EO author interested in the OO Churches, her name escapes me at the moment, but she is affiliated with Syndesmos...), and the terminology is somewhat confusing (the names of all the Churches involved are quite similar) so I stand to be corrected by Phil, Paul, or Reji. Unless I am misunderstanding you (which is quite possible) this post makes it sound as if the Indians who placed themselves under the Patriarch of Antioch are schismatics and those who remained under the Pope of Rome are true successors of St. Thomas.  Respectfully, I disagree.

Based on what I have read, the Church in India was a completely independent Orthodox Church until the time of the Portuguese invasion, at which point attempts were made to force them under the Roman Pope. At that time (the time of the Koonan Cross oath), they wrote to Antioch and Alexandria for help. Alexandria sent them a bishop of Syrian extraction (Mar Aithalla Theodore), but he was captured by the Portuguese, and according to different accounts, either drowned or taken to Europe and tried as a heretic, where he reposed in the Lord. This was in the mid-17th century if I am not mistaken.

I don't have my source material with me at work, but if need be, I can post more when I get home. Long story short, the Indians placed themselves under Antioch in order to avoid being forced under Rome, although some portions of the Orthodox Church did split off and embrace the Roman communion.

Later, something similar happened with the Anglicans during British rule, resulting in the Mar Thoma, etc.

(Man, I hate European imperialism  :flame:)

As to rites, I was under the impression that before all of this happened the Indians used an East Syrian rite, but again, I stand to be corrected by my brothers in the IOC, Simhasana, and Jacobite Churches.

In XC,

Nick
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 01:23:49 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2005, 02:32:22 PM »

Nick,

They petioned to be raised to the status of patriarchate, the were raised to major archepsicopate which the Syro-malankas seem to equate to catholicate, which given the realtionship of the Jacobite Malankars to Antioch makes sense.  If the Orthodox complain to Rome or the Archbishop himself perhaps he will refrain form using catholicos.

Yes there should only be one patriarch in a see.

As for the Indian Church my understanding is that they answered to the Assyrian Patriarch and used his rite and received their bishops from him.  They welcomed the Portuguese as fellow Christians and seemed to be unaware of any schism.  Of course the Portuguese responded by forcibly Latinizing them.  In response a sizable portion but not the majority, left the Catholic Church and petioned the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch to take them under his omophor which he did but required them to accept the West Syrian Rite.  While this is going on the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch attempted to assert his authority over the Syro-Malabar Church and sent them a bishop, but this bishop left the Catholic Church and joined the Assyrians and today there is still a small Assyrian Malabar Church.  Then in the 1920's five of the bishops of the Jacobite Malankar Church invetigated union with Rome with 2 actually doing so in 1930 resulting in the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Tags: Indian Orthodox Eastern Catholic schism Syriac Orthodox 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.145 seconds with 71 queries.