Author Topic: Should a parish be allowed to forbid the chotki?  (Read 19560 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #180 on: September 06, 2013, 11:34:15 AM »
I guess I'm just not a fan of a priest "strictly forbidding" something which saints explicitly recommend.

One saint, actually.

...I'm also sure that we could find among them many who may have agreed with the priest in question...

Who wants to take up the challenge to find a single saint who shared the opinion of this priest?  It would be interesting to see.
Why does it matter so much to you what my priest does in his parish?

We are part of the same body.  Shouldn't we care what Orthodox priests do in their parishes, particularly if it sounds problematic from the context of Orthodox tradition?  Parishes are not separate and isolated religions, and priests do not have the blessing to do whatever they want.  As Orthodox Christians, we should care what our fellow Orthodox Christians are being taught.
But that doesn't give anyone the authority to be a busybody about it, as you have been. We have bishops to enforce the Tradition of the Church upon our priests. You certainly have the freedom to voice your opinion, but that's really all you can do here. Do you have the authority to enforce your opinion upon my priest? No, you do not.

Shanghaiski expressed the assumption that we can probably find saints that agreed with your priest that prayer ropes should not be used in church.  Since he offered the assertion, I would love to see the claim demonstrated. 

So far, the only real argument made against using the prayer rope in church is that doing so prevents one from fully participating in the common prayers.  I provided the quote from St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) expressing the common understanding of how and why the Jesus Prayer is said during services, in order to drive away distractions and focus on the common prayers.  In other words, saying the Jesus Prayer can greatly help a person to participate in the common prayers of the Church.  Prayer ropes are a great help in saying the Jesus Prayer.  So, to say "no prayer ropes" is to discourage the use of the Jesus Prayer, which can discourage attentive participation in the common services, which is problematic.

Yes, I provided only one quote from one saint, but he expresses the common understanding of the Church regarding the use of the Jesus Prayer during services.
Does he really? Without any corroborating evidence from any other Fathers or saints, that's really just a bare assertion that begs the question. What Church? I know you have a history here of extrapolating the traditions you've learned in the ROCOR and projecting them as normative for all Orthodox Christians in all jurisdictions. Why am I to think you're not doing that now? You say that St. Ignatius expresses the common understanding of the Church on the use of the Jesus Prayer during services. I'd like to see you post evidence of that claim.

The fact that it is very common in traditional monasteries to find monks using their prayer ropes in the common services is evidence of this.  Why would an abbot allow his monks to use prayer ropes in the services if it would prevent their full participation?
And the experience of the monasteries is to be seen as normative for all Orthodox parishes? I could argue at great length against this mentality, but others have already done so, so I'm not going to add to what they've already done.

The quote from the OCA website against "saying your own prayers" during the common services is correct if it is referring to saying other prayers from a prayer book or the psalms rather than the Jesus Prayer, since these longer and non-repetitive prayers would divert attention from the common service and prevent a person from participating in the service.

Now, to add a quote from St. Moses of Optina (The Elder Moses of Optina, Holy Nativity Convent, Boston, MA, 1996, p. 62.):
Quote

While you are standing in church, you must say the Jesus Prayer. Then you will also hear the church service distinctly.
Another saint's opinion. Hardly evidence of any common understanding of the Church.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #181 on: September 06, 2013, 11:34:50 AM »
I would like patristic quotes on the type of material that prayer ropes should be made of and what colors they can be. The only one I could find so far is St. Varsonofy Panteleimonovich Krestovozdvizhensky who stated: "It is not permitted to have mixed fibers in the prayer rope for it is a symbol of mixing evil with the good.  It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.  Only then can the prayers be released from the thread for clockwise spinning is symbol of the Evil one and we must follow the direction of the procession of our Divine Liturgy. Woe to you who do not have access to an alpaca but through ekonomia, we may use the wool of a sheep."

Does anyone else have further quotes on this most serious crisis facing our Church?

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #182 on: September 06, 2013, 11:39:27 AM »
I would like patristic quotes on the type of material that prayer ropes should be made of and what colors they can be. The only one I could find so far is St. Varsonofy Panteleimonovich Krestovozdvizhensky who stated: "It is not permitted to have mixed fibers in the prayer rope for it is a symbol of mixing evil with the good.  It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.  Only then can the prayers be released from the thread for clockwise spinning is symbol of the Evil one and we must follow the direction of the procession of our Divine Liturgy. Woe to you who do not have access to an alpaca but through ekonomia, we may use the wool of a sheep."

Does anyone else have further quotes on this most serious crisis facing our Church?

Sarcasm loses some of its humor and effectiveness the closer it gets to blasphemy.
And where you do you see blasphemy there?
God bless!

Offline jah777

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #183 on: September 06, 2013, 12:11:50 PM »
I know you have a history here of extrapolating the traditions you've learned in the ROCOR and projecting them as normative for all Orthodox Christians in all jurisdictions. Why am I to think you're not doing that now?

Quite an interesting claim, since I am not a member of ROCOR but of the GOA.   ???

And the experience of the monasteries is to be seen as normative for all Orthodox parishes?

No, I am not making the broad claim that the experience of monasteries should be normative for all Orthodox parishes.  Monasteries can certainly be helpful resources to learn about prayer, why monks use prayer ropes during services, and whether such practices are for monastics only or also for the laity.  As I said before, it is ridiculous to assert that only monastics need help in driving away distractions during services in order to participate more attentively in the prayers.  If monastics need help remaining attentive in the services, the laity need even more help! 

Since you mentioned ROCOR before, I wish I still was in our old ROCOR parish where men and women stood separately and the women dressed very modestly.  At our GOA parish, women dress very provocatively  :o.  Thank God for the prayer rope!  It is a great help in keeping away unwanted thoughts and distractions! 8)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #184 on: September 06, 2013, 12:37:18 PM »
It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.

Ain't doin' nuffink widdershins, yerroner! :P
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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #185 on: September 06, 2013, 01:27:27 PM »
I would also like to make a strong argument regarding Tierra del Fuego as having insufficient Orthodox representation.  Heaven forbid if William should choose to move there.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Orthodox burning in hell, so William will be in good company should he decide he wants to go there.

Oh, you didn't mean that Land of Fire...sorry.
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Offline jah777

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #186 on: September 06, 2013, 02:56:46 PM »
Another saint's opinion. Hardly evidence of any common understanding of the Church.

There is nothing in the words quoted of St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) or St. Moses of Optina that can be said to be "opinion".  Their words express the common experience and instructions of the saints.  Show saints and Fathers that had a different "opinion" if you think their words are opinion rather than the expression of consensus.

Again, I am not saying that everyone *must* use a prayer rope in church.  The problem is *strictly forbidding* the use of a prayer rope in church.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #187 on: September 06, 2013, 03:03:27 PM »
I would like patristic quotes on the type of material that prayer ropes should be made of and what colors they can be. The only one I could find so far is St. Varsonofy Panteleimonovich Krestovozdvizhensky who stated: "It is not permitted to have mixed fibers in the prayer rope for it is a symbol of mixing evil with the good.  It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.  Only then can the prayers be released from the thread for clockwise spinning is symbol of the Evil one and we must follow the direction of the procession of our Divine Liturgy. Woe to you who do not have access to an alpaca but through ekonomia, we may use the wool of a sheep."

Does anyone else have further quotes on this most serious crisis facing our Church?

Sarcasm loses some of its humor and effectiveness the closer it gets to blasphemy.
And where you do you see blasphemy there?
the chotkis most loaded with grace are made of pure athonite hair; don't you know the fathers are shorn after Pentecost for this very purpose. for a modest donation I can send you one.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #188 on: September 06, 2013, 03:06:11 PM »
I would like patristic quotes on the type of material that prayer ropes should be made of and what colors they can be. The only one I could find so far is St. Varsonofy Panteleimonovich Krestovozdvizhensky who stated: "It is not permitted to have mixed fibers in the prayer rope for it is a symbol of mixing evil with the good.  It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.  Only then can the prayers be released from the thread for clockwise spinning is symbol of the Evil one and we must follow the direction of the procession of our Divine Liturgy. Woe to you who do not have access to an alpaca but through ekonomia, we may use the wool of a sheep."

Does anyone else have further quotes on this most serious crisis facing our Church?

Sarcasm loses some of its humor and effectiveness the closer it gets to blasphemy.
And where you do you see blasphemy there?

Did I say there was blasphemy there? No. I said it was closer to it than away from it.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #189 on: September 06, 2013, 03:07:20 PM »
I would like patristic quotes on the type of material that prayer ropes should be made of and what colors they can be. The only one I could find so far is St. Varsonofy Panteleimonovich Krestovozdvizhensky who stated: "It is not permitted to have mixed fibers in the prayer rope for it is a symbol of mixing evil with the good.  It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.  Only then can the prayers be released from the thread for clockwise spinning is symbol of the Evil one and we must follow the direction of the procession of our Divine Liturgy. Woe to you who do not have access to an alpaca but through ekonomia, we may use the wool of a sheep."

Does anyone else have further quotes on this most serious crisis facing our Church?

Sarcasm loses some of its humor and effectiveness the closer it gets to blasphemy.
And where you do you see blasphemy there?
the chotkis most loaded with grace are made of pure athonite hair; don't you know the fathers are shorn after Pentecost for this very purpose. for a modest donation I can send you one.
I can get that from my earwax and kumis broker.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #190 on: September 06, 2013, 03:25:31 PM »
I would like patristic quotes on the type of material that prayer ropes should be made of and what colors they can be. The only one I could find so far is St. Varsonofy Panteleimonovich Krestovozdvizhensky who stated: "It is not permitted to have mixed fibers in the prayer rope for it is a symbol of mixing evil with the good.  It should only be made of pure alpaca wool and spun in a counter-clockwise motion.  Only then can the prayers be released from the thread for clockwise spinning is symbol of the Evil one and we must follow the direction of the procession of our Divine Liturgy. Woe to you who do not have access to an alpaca but through ekonomia, we may use the wool of a sheep."

Does anyone else have further quotes on this most serious crisis facing our Church?

Sarcasm loses some of its humor and effectiveness the closer it gets to blasphemy.
And where you do you see blasphemy there?

Did I say there was blasphemy there? No. I said it was closer to it than away from it.
I can see an argument for questionable taste, but I don't see anything near blasphemy.  Sorry if I have offended.
God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #191 on: September 06, 2013, 04:12:52 PM »
I know you have a history here of extrapolating the traditions you've learned in the ROCOR and projecting them as normative for all Orthodox Christians in all jurisdictions. Why am I to think you're not doing that now?

Quite an interesting claim, since I am not a member of ROCOR but of the GOA.   ???
I remember you stating in your profile many moons ago that you were at that time a member of ROCOR. Your statements below confirm this.

And the experience of the monasteries is to be seen as normative for all Orthodox parishes?

No, I am not making the broad claim that the experience of monasteries should be normative for all Orthodox parishes.  Monasteries can certainly be helpful resources to learn about prayer, why monks use prayer ropes during services, and whether such practices are for monastics only or also for the laity.  As I said before, it is ridiculous to assert that only monastics need help in driving away distractions during services in order to participate more attentively in the prayers.  If monastics need help remaining attentive in the services, the laity need even more help! 

Since you mentioned ROCOR before, I wish I still was in our old ROCOR parish where men and women stood separately and the women dressed very modestly.  At our GOA parish, women dress very provocatively  :o.  Thank God for the prayer rope!  It is a great help in keeping away unwanted thoughts and distractions! 8)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #192 on: September 06, 2013, 04:48:52 PM »
I know you have a history here of extrapolating the traditions you've learned in the ROCOR and projecting them as normative for all Orthodox Christians in all jurisdictions. Why am I to think you're not doing that now?

Quite an interesting claim, since I am not a member of ROCOR but of the GOA.   ???

And the experience of the monasteries is to be seen as normative for all Orthodox parishes?

No, I am not making the broad claim that the experience of monasteries should be normative for all Orthodox parishes.  Monasteries can certainly be helpful resources to learn about prayer, why monks use prayer ropes during services, and whether such practices are for monastics only or also for the laity.  As I said before, it is ridiculous to assert that only monastics need help in driving away distractions during services in order to participate more attentively in the prayers.  If monastics need help remaining attentive in the services, the laity need even more help! 

Since you mentioned ROCOR before, I wish I still was in our old ROCOR parish where men and women stood separately and the women dressed very modestly.  At our GOA parish, women dress very provocatively  :o.  Thank God for the prayer rope!  It is a great help in keeping away unwanted thoughts and distractions! 8)

Yes, prayer ropes restrain me from.. never mind.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #193 on: September 06, 2013, 05:10:54 PM »
Another saint's opinion. Hardly evidence of any common understanding of the Church.

There is nothing in the words quoted of St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) or St. Moses of Optina that can be said to be "opinion".  Their words express the common experience and instructions of the saints.  Show saints and Fathers that had a different "opinion" if you think their words are opinion rather than the expression of consensus.
No. You're making the claim that Sts. Ignatius and Moses express the common experience and instruction of the saints, the common understanding of the Church. It's your burden to prove your claims, not mine to refute them.

Again, I am not saying that everyone *must* use a prayer rope in church.  The problem is *strictly forbidding* the use of a prayer rope in church.
Again, if you have a problem with such a prohibition, don't come to my church. Problem solved. Just don't judge a priest's pastoral policies based on what little is shared of them by one of his parishioners on an Internet discussion board. Many other posters on this thread have given a solid defense from the public teaching of the Church to support my priest on this issue. You don't have to agree with them, but you cannot say that only your position has the support of the Church, especially without proof.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #194 on: September 06, 2013, 06:02:25 PM »
Yes, prayer ropes restrain me from.. never mind.

No better restraint than 100 knots. :angel:
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #195 on: September 06, 2013, 06:29:30 PM »
Yes, prayer ropes restrain me from.. never mind.

No better restraint than 100 knots. :angel:
500 for multiple Greek temptresses.  It's not my fault!  They dress provocatively :o ::) ;D
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Arachne

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #196 on: September 06, 2013, 06:40:01 PM »
Yes, prayer ropes restrain me from.. never mind.

No better restraint than 100 knots. :angel:
500 for multiple Greek temptresses.  It's not my fault!  They dress provocatively :o ::) ;D

It's all about not hiding our lights. Yes, that. 8)
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline LBK

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #197 on: September 06, 2013, 09:35:36 PM »
Yes, prayer ropes restrain me from.. never mind.

No better restraint than 100 knots. :angel:

You naughty, naughty girl, you!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #198 on: September 06, 2013, 10:12:45 PM »
Yes, prayer ropes restrain me from.. never mind.

No better restraint than 100 knots. :angel:
500 for multiple Greek temptresses.  It's not my fault!  They dress provocatively :o ::) ;D

It's all about not hiding our lights. Yes, that. 8)

Yes, quite bright 'round these parts during DL.
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #199 on: September 06, 2013, 10:12:53 PM »
I have three (all gifts) but almost never wear them...I wore one for a while when I was a catechumen, as a symbol of my faith more than anything, but now I have a cross, so that's no longer necessary.
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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #200 on: September 06, 2013, 10:17:54 PM »
I am so confused by some of the more recent posts. Perhaps that is for the best in this case...  ??? :angel: :police:
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Offline jah777

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #201 on: September 09, 2013, 09:29:34 AM »
Many other posters on this thread have given a solid defense from the public teaching of the Church to support my priest on this issue. You don't have to agree with them, but you cannot say that only your position has the support of the Church, especially without proof.

I have seen no solid defense, just the false claim that using a prayer rope in church is somehow a hindrance to full participation, whereas the saints encourage the use of the prayer rope in order to listen and participate more fully in the services.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #202 on: September 09, 2013, 10:04:59 AM »
Many other posters on this thread have given a solid defense from the public teaching of the Church to support my priest on this issue. You don't have to agree with them, but you cannot say that only your position has the support of the Church, especially without proof.

I have seen no solid defense, just the false claim that using a prayer rope in church is somehow a hindrance to full participation,
If it's a false claim, then prove it false. Besides, you're missing the point that the issue isn't full participation in the services, but rather participation in the services in full union with the community.

whereas the saints encourage the use of the prayer rope in order to listen and participate more fully in the services.
TWO saints. That's all you've really cited thus far. You need to cite a lot more than just two saints, those saints need to span a much greater time frame than just one century, and those saints need to represent much more than just one national church for you to prove any "common understanding of the Church".
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 10:10:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #203 on: September 09, 2013, 10:22:23 AM »
Many other posters on this thread have given a solid defense from the public teaching of the Church to support my priest on this issue. You don't have to agree with them, but you cannot say that only your position has the support of the Church, especially without proof.

I have seen no solid defense, just the false claim that Using a prayer rope in church is somehow can be a hindrance to full participation for the congregants in the particular parish that the priest has experience shepherding, whereas the saints encourage the use of the prayer rope in order to listen and participate more fully in the services.

Fixed for you.
God bless!

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #204 on: September 09, 2013, 10:56:53 AM »
Many other posters on this thread have given a solid defense from the public teaching of the Church to support my priest on this issue. You don't have to agree with them, but you cannot say that only your position has the support of the Church, especially without proof.

I have seen no solid defense, just the false claim that using a prayer rope in church is somehow a hindrance to full participation, whereas the saints encourage the use of the prayer rope in order to listen and participate more fully in the services.

But, it IS a distraction.

Even people leafing through the "hymnals" that are placed in the pews in some churchs are a distraction.  The person isn't "listening" or "praying" but, leafing through the pages trying to "keep up".  It's better that they simply listen and "catch" what's being said.

The prayer rope is even worse....because the individual is no longer even following or trying to "keep up" with the Liturgy, but, is participating in an individual prayer.

When we are gathered as a group to worship God during the Divine Liturgy, we are all a part of ONE body.  We no longer pray for "I, me, my",...but, for "us, we, ours".  The ONLY "individual" prayer during the entire service is the recitation of the Creed, where we can only speak for ourselves in what we believe, because we aren't sure what Joe standing to our right believes or Judy on our left.  "I" believe....

Otherwise, we are to focus on the us, and the salvation of all, not just ourselves.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
« Reply #205 on: September 09, 2013, 11:23:19 AM »
Is it so impossible to keep private prayers during private time and corporate prayers during congregational times?
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Should a parish be allowed to forbid the chotki?
« Reply #206 on: October 27, 2013, 11:28:15 AM »
This is probably the thread of controversy.  I want people to familiarize themselves with the rule before continuing this discussion:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules

The question is "Should a parish be allowed to forbid the chotki?"  The discussion should be professional, mature, and should not resort to any insults or attacks.  Now, people may be "rude" to a particular line of argument, and I want to give people this anecdote.  If you feel angry when you type, please do the sign of the Cross and say "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."  Reflect on your weakness as a sinner and then proceed to give your frank and blunt argument without trying to walk a thin line of the rules of this forum to offend the other.  At the same time, familiarize yourself with the rules so that you won't be disappointed with my PM if I don't take an action on a poster who doesn't break the rules.  Please, love one another even if you disagree with one another.  And if you forget what love entails, read 1 Corinthians 13:4-8.

God bless.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Should a parish be allowed to forbid the chotki?
« Reply #207 on: October 28, 2013, 01:09:11 AM »
this whole thread is a joke

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM EXPLICIT REMARKS THAT HAVE AN OBSCENE REFERENCE.  THANK YOU

MINA
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 01:14:17 AM by minasoliman »
I am a demonic servant! Beware!