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Author Topic: The Patriarch (EP) in Finland  (Read 2196 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orest
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« on: September 16, 2013, 03:27:14 PM »

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This was the second time in three years that the Patriarch has come to bless His most Northern Church. Such frequency of visits, although certainly welcomed by the local Orthodox, tells of the Patriarch’s own concern about Finland remaining under His omophorion. Some of us believe in Orthodox ecclesiological teaching, that is, that the “natural state” of a local church is autocephaly rather that autonomy. In this discussion, though, it has been obvious for a long time that theology is theology  — and politics is politics — both in East and West.

http://ortodoksi.net/ortodoksi/blogi/rauno/2013/09/13/the-patriarch-in-finland/
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Alpo
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 04:00:03 PM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.

https://www.ort.fi/uutiset/ecumenical-patriarch-bartholomew-finland-11-139
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 04:12:44 PM »

I will refrain from making a joke about him crossing the finish line, and instead just say...  cool  Smiley
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Alpo
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 04:16:05 PM »

I will refrain from making a joke

Please don't. This board needs more bad jokes. It makes us look almost like normal human beings.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 04:16:31 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 04:27:11 PM »

I will refrain from making a joke

Please don't. This board needs more bad jokes. It makes us look almost like normal human beings.

 Very punny. We Orthodox are a serious lot.  Smiley  Often, we are so serious, we are full of a lot of _____.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 06:20:54 PM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 07:38:20 PM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 07:47:13 PM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.

I suspect one would receive two different answers as to which parent was, in fact, abusive depending upon the ethnicity of the Estonian citizen being questioned.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 07:54:16 PM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.
the abuse of foster care?

and you are rushin' to conclusions.

Quote
Immediately on arrival in Finland, His All-Holiness visited the Church of the Holy Trinity in Helsinki, the oldest Orthodox Church in the region serving as the parish for the Russophone community of the local Church. There, a formal Doxology was held in the presence of the Ambassadors of Greece and Cyprus to Finland, Their Excellencies Christos Kontovounissios and Filippos Kritiotis.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:05:48 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 07:56:58 PM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.

I suspect one would receive two different answers as to which parent was, in fact, abusive depending upon the ethnicity of the Estonian citizen being questioned.
It was a Finn.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
podkarpatska
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 07:58:47 PM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.

I suspect one would receive two different answers as to which parent was, in fact, abusive depending upon the ethnicity of the Estonian citizen being questioned.
It was a Finn.

Oopsie.
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mike
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 08:00:57 PM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.
the abuse of foster care?

and you are rushin' to conclusions.

The abuse of "living Church".

All who could were running away from Russians in 1920s: Poles, Estonians, Finns, ROCOR, Metropolia, Ukrainians... Can't really blame them.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 08:06:56 PM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

Sometimes it is the only way to save the child when mother is abusive.
the abuse of foster care?

and you are rushin' to conclusions.

The abuse of "living Church".

All who could were running away from Russians in 1920s: Poles, Estonians, Finns, ROCOR, Metropolia, Ukrainians... Can't really blame them.
I recall quite a few Russians running away from the Soviets in the 1920s.  From the Russians, not so many.

And who dropped by?
Quote
Immediately on arrival in Finland, His All-Holiness visited the Church of the Holy Trinity in Helsinki, the oldest Orthodox Church in the region serving as the parish for the Russophone community of the local Church. There, a formal Doxology was held in the presence of the Ambassadors of Greece and Cyprus to Finland, Their Excellencies Christos Kontovounissios and Filippos Kritiotis.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:07:42 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 08:15:34 PM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.

https://www.ort.fi/uutiset/ecumenical-patriarch-bartholomew-finland-11-139
Quote
In his formal address, His All-Holiness referred among other things to the historical and canonical privileges of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
hmmmm.  Wonder what those would be Roll Eyes
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 12:40:55 AM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

You could pass a memo to the Holy Synod of MP that they shouldn't have accepted our status within the EP. I'm sure they'll be interested. Tongue
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ialmisry
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 12:48:54 AM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

You could pass a memo to the Holy Synod of MP that they shouldn't have accepted our status within the EP. I'm sure they'll be interested. Tongue
Did the PoM do that?

from the OP
Quote
Isä Raunon blogi

 Some of us believe in Orthodox ecclesiological teaching, that is, that the “natural state” of a local church is autocephaly rather that autonomy.

 We have every reason to expect the Patriarch to become the “spiritual leader of all Orthodox Christians in the world”, as the Patriarchate itself already likes to call him such. However, an emphasis on things Greek occasionally hinders the ecumenical nature of the Patriarchate. We Finns and Estonians could rightly ask if it is only ethnic Greeks who can be members of the Holy Synod in Constantinople? Many of us have learned to live with this situation — but it does not mean we like it or that we agree with it.

 Let us hope that one day, our Ecumenical Patriarchate will become as truly universal as it already claims to be.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:51:22 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 01:29:18 AM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.

https://www.ort.fi/uutiset/ecumenical-patriarch-bartholomew-finland-11-139
Quote
In his formal address, His All-Holiness referred among other things to the historical and canonical privileges of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
hmmmm.  Wonder what those would be Roll Eyes

 Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2013, 06:10:11 AM »

Did the PoM do that?

Yes. There are plenty of proofs  for concelebration and fraternal relations between FInnish and Russian/Ukrainian/OCA Churches.

I sometimes agree with you Ecumenical Patriarchate is to bossy however in this particular case your bashing is ungrounded.
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2013, 06:38:22 AM »

Did the PoM do that?

Yes. There are plenty of proofs  for concelebration and fraternal relations between FInnish and Russian/Ukrainian/OCA Churches.

I sometimes agree with you Ecumenical Patriarchate is to bossy however in this particular case your bashing is ungrounded.

As a general rule, it has been my observation over the years that there is some sort of correlation between the wearing of a klobuk and being bossy.....
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2013, 08:27:54 AM »

Since Constantinople is at most the grand-mother (if there is such an ecclesiastical animal), why did the Patriarch say that she was the mother church? Was that a slip of the tongue or a bad translation?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:28:28 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2013, 09:14:37 AM »

Since Constantinople is at most the grand-mother (if there is such an ecclesiastical animal), why did the Patriarch say that she was the mother church? Was that a slip of the tongue or a bad translation?

I have noticed this again and again and again in the homilies by Patriarch Bartholomew, in speeches about the church in general, and other things. Always, Constantinople is called the "mother church". I have heard it many times, so I do not think it is a slip of the tongue or a bad translation.

Their own website, in press releases and in synod releases, always "mother church".

I do not agree with them being the mother church, in reality I think that is more a title for Jerusalem or for Antioch. I know Jerusalem, the Patriarch also calls his church the mother church.
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 09:16:58 AM »

Did the PoM do that?

Yes. There are plenty of proofs  for concelebration and fraternal relations between FInnish and Russian/Ukrainian/OCA Churches.

I sometimes agree with you Ecumenical Patriarchate is to bossy however in this particular case your bashing is ungrounded.

As a general rule, it has been my observation over the years that there is some sort of correlation between the wearing of a klobuk and being bossy.....

I wonder what would happen if it were rid of  angel

 Grin
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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2013, 10:27:09 AM »

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In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

You could pass a memo to the Holy Synod of MP that they shouldn't have accepted our status within the EP. I'm sure they'll be interested. Tongue
Did the PoM do that?

They did.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2013, 11:20:30 AM »

Since Constantinople is at most the grand-mother (if there is such an ecclesiastical animal), why did the Patriarch say that she was the mother church? Was that a slip of the tongue or a bad translation?

I have noticed this again and again and again in the homilies by Patriarch Bartholomew, in speeches about the church in general, and other things. Always, Constantinople is called the "mother church". I have heard it many times, so I do not think it is a slip of the tongue or a bad translation.

Their own website, in press releases and in synod releases, always "mother church".

I do not agree with them being the mother church, in reality I think that is more a title for Jerusalem or for Antioch. I know Jerusalem, the Patriarch also calls his church the mother church.


I think that words matter, not only for the hearer but also for the speaker; the danger is that they both may start taking them seriously.
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2013, 12:18:17 PM »

Take cover folks, we are lining up in our favorite formation:  the circular firing squad. Duck!!!
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ialmisry
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2013, 12:21:26 PM »

Since Constantinople is at most the grand-mother (if there is such an ecclesiastical animal), why did the Patriarch say that she was the mother church? Was that a slip of the tongue or a bad translation?

I have noticed this again and again and again in the homilies by Patriarch Bartholomew, in speeches about the church in general, and other things. Always, Constantinople is called the "mother church". I have heard it many times, so I do not think it is a slip of the tongue or a bad translation.
just bad ecclesiology.
Their own website, in press releases and in synod releases, always "mother church".
Yes. Guess who the step children are.

I do not agree with them being the mother church, in reality I think that is more a title for Jerusalem or for Antioch. I know Jerusalem, the Patriarch also calls his church the mother church.
If only her children were in charge!
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2013, 12:22:09 PM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

You could pass a memo to the Holy Synod of MP that they shouldn't have accepted our status within the EP. I'm sure they'll be interested. Tongue
Did the PoM do that?

They did.
When and how (e.g. is there a Tomos)?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2013, 12:33:21 PM »

Did the PoM do that?

Yes. There are plenty of proofs  for concelebration and fraternal relations between FInnish and Russian/Ukrainian/OCA Churches.

I sometimes agree with you Ecumenical Patriarchate is to bossy however in this particular case your bashing is ungrounded.
Oh?  Isa and Isä are agreed.

The Phanar is pursuing an agenda up North which affects us all.

Why shouldn't, for instance, the Orthodox Episcopal Assembly of Scandinavia be under Archbishop Leo of Finland?  Does all those Greek bishops that Isä points out have something to do with it?

Yes, I'm aware of the close relations between Finland and the OCA, and that when the Phanar questioned Archbishop Paul of blessed memory about them, Abp. Paul brought up the question of Finland's canonical ties with the Phanar, and the matter was dropped.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2013, 12:53:55 PM »

Quote
In response to an invitation by the Autonomous Church of Finland, after completing the Patriarchal Visit to the Orthodox Church of Estonia, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew traveled by boat from Tallinn to Helsinki on the morning of September 11, 2013, in order preside over the celebrations on the occasion of the 90th anniversary since the proclamation of the Finnish Church as Autonomous by the Mother Church of Constantinople.
so kidknapping a daughter makes you a mother.  Interesting.

Any plans for emancipation?

You could pass a memo to the Holy Synod of MP that they shouldn't have accepted our status within the EP. I'm sure they'll be interested. Tongue
Did the PoM do that?

They did.
When and how (e.g. is there a Tomos)?

IIRC there isn't a Tomos. All I know is that two decades of luring and pressure Metropolitan Nicholas (Jarushevits) informed in 1957 about the Synod's recognition that the Finnish Church belongs to the EP. It's been a while since I've read about the issue but this basically settled all disputes about our status and I don't think PoM has questioned it ever since.
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 02:43:45 PM »

Why shouldn't, for instance, the Orthodox Episcopal Assembly of Scandinavia be under Archbishop Leo of Finland?  Does all those Greek bishops that Isä points out have something to do with it?

Finland is undisputedly a canonical territory of the Finnish Church therefore there is no reason for Finland to be included in any episcopal assemblies.
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 02:56:06 PM »

Why shouldn't, for instance, the Orthodox Episcopal Assembly of Scandinavia be under Archbishop Leo of Finland?  Does all those Greek bishops that Isä points out have something to do with it?

Finland is undisputedly a canonical territory of the Finnish Church therefore there is no reason for Finland to be included in any episcopal assemblies.
That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.
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« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2013, 02:57:23 PM »

Take cover folks, we are lining up in our favorite formation:  the circular firing squad. Duck!!!

OK, it will be my pleasure to get the formation going.

1. With the regional assemblies, we have a chance to go in a correct direction, that is to make disciples of all nations for the glory of God. This will not happen as long as Constantinople continues to emphasize Her interpretation of Canon 28.

2. We have to figure out how to solve the existential crises of the ancient patriarchates. I do not think that it can be solved if Constantinople clings to either her role in the Eastern Roman Empire (ergo, Ecumenical Patriarchate) or in the Ottoman Empire (or, Greeks are exempt from the charge if ethno-philetism). We certainly cannot go forward if the worth of every local church, no matter how small, is not celebrated.

3. Regarding the ancient patriarchates, a future ecumenical council must choose between the two criteria for primacy or for positions of honor/seniority. One criterion was used by two of the true ecumenical councils, that is, proximity to political power? The second criterion that has been used was apostolic foundation. I suppose that a third, new criterion could be the number of adherents.

4. We have to decide whether we emphasize regions or national boundaries. Right now, folks are talking from both sides of their mouths. For example, clearly the inclusion of Finland, Estonia, Poland, Ukraine in the ROC was a matter of a national-boundary approach, with the Russian Empire's boundaries conflated with the concept of nation. However, since the fall of the Russian Empire, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous. Instead, they are under the "protection" of a foster-mother church, Constantinople, that is making the situation even more muddled than it needs to be by espousing a quasi-Papal claim of world-wide supremacy.

5. I believe that Constantinople's positions are driven by the exigencies of Her existential crisis and the inertia of her past. Understandable but not helpful, as is the impulse in the ROC to revert back to a state, imperial church.

6. I think that Constantinople and Moscow are the ones who are responsible for the irregularities and disagreements in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Autonomous churches that hide in their respective rassos are of no help either.

At least in the United States, I pray for the Bishop's Assembly to come up with a solution that will create one truly local church, with provisions made to help the ancient patriarchates with regular monetary support--perhaps tithes. Recognizing the strong attraction of ethnic ties, I hope that the local church that is created will have ministries to those who wish to hang onto their ethnicity, without however detracting from the primary mission that should be for the American Orthodox Church to be as large as the heterodox. That necessarily means that we will no longer have Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian, Antiochian churches as the normative faces of American Orthodoxy; they will be in the minority, overshadowed by the much more numerous churches that will simply be associated with their cities or neighborhoods.
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« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2013, 03:05:42 PM »

That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

What does the tomos say about CoF's teritory?

We have to decide whether we emphasize regions or national boundaries. Right now, folks are talking from both sides of their mouths. For example, clearly the inclusion of Finland, Estonia, Poland, Ukraine in the ROC was a matter of a national-boundary approach, with the Russian Empire's boundaries conflated with the concept of nation. However, since the fall of the Russian Empire, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous. Instead, they are under the "protection" of a foster-mother church, Constantinople, that is making the situation even more muddled than it needs to be by espousing a quasi-Papal claim of world-wide supremacy.

Poland is autocephalous, not "under the protection" of the Constantinople.
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« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2013, 03:07:31 PM »

That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

What does the tomos say about CoF's teritory?

We have to decide whether we emphasize regions or national boundaries. Right now, folks are talking from both sides of their mouths. For example, clearly the inclusion of Finland, Estonia, Poland, Ukraine in the ROC was a matter of a national-boundary approach, with the Russian Empire's boundaries conflated with the concept of nation. However, since the fall of the Russian Empire, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous. Instead, they are under the "protection" of a foster-mother church, Constantinople, that is making the situation even more muddled than it needs to be by espousing a quasi-Papal claim of world-wide supremacy.

Poland is autocephalous, not "under the protection" of the Constantinople.

Thank you for making my point. I should perhaps made it clearer: As is the case with Poland, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous.
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« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2013, 03:18:20 PM »

That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

What does the tomos say about CoF's teritory?

We have to decide whether we emphasize regions or national boundaries. Right now, folks are talking from both sides of their mouths. For example, clearly the inclusion of Finland, Estonia, Poland, Ukraine in the ROC was a matter of a national-boundary approach, with the Russian Empire's boundaries conflated with the concept of nation. However, since the fall of the Russian Empire, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous. Instead, they are under the "protection" of a foster-mother church, Constantinople, that is making the situation even more muddled than it needs to be by espousing a quasi-Papal claim of world-wide supremacy.

Poland is autocephalous, not "under the protection" of the Constantinople.

Thank you for making my point. I should perhaps made it clearer: As is the case with Poland, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous.
For one thing, unlike in Poland or in Constantinople, the Orthodox Church is a state Church.
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« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2013, 03:24:00 PM »

That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

What does the tomos say about CoF's teritory?

We have to decide whether we emphasize regions or national boundaries. Right now, folks are talking from both sides of their mouths. For example, clearly the inclusion of Finland, Estonia, Poland, Ukraine in the ROC was a matter of a national-boundary approach, with the Russian Empire's boundaries conflated with the concept of nation. However, since the fall of the Russian Empire, there is no reason for these nation states not to be fully autocephalous. Instead, they are under the "protection" of a foster-mother church, Constantinople, that is making the situation even more muddled than it needs to be by espousing a quasi-Papal claim of world-wide supremacy.

Poland is autocephalous, not "under the protection" of the Constantinople.
But the Phanar claims a right to revoke autocephaly at its pleasure, as the dust up with the celebration in the Czech Lands and Slovakia of the Tomos of Autocephaly (received from the PoM).  At least the PoM acknowledges (in its own self interest as well) that such a power of revocation does not exist.
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« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2013, 03:29:44 PM »

Why shouldn't, for instance, the Orthodox Episcopal Assembly of Scandinavia be under Archbishop Leo of Finland?  Does all those Greek bishops that Isä points out have something to do with it?

Finland is undisputedly a canonical territory of the Finnish Church therefore there is no reason for Finland to be included in any episcopal assemblies.
That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

We are the Finnish Orthodox Church. Not the Scandinavian Orthodox Church. IIRC the EP's Tomos explicitly defines that we are to be the Church of those people who reside within the Republic of Finland.

Though I certainly wouldn't mind if we were molded into a Scandinavian church. It would be cool if we could collect taxes from Danes, Swedes and Norwegians. angel
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« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2013, 03:45:59 PM »

Why shouldn't, for instance, the Orthodox Episcopal Assembly of Scandinavia be under Archbishop Leo of Finland?  Does all those Greek bishops that Isä points out have something to do with it?

Finland is undisputedly a canonical territory of the Finnish Church therefore there is no reason for Finland to be included in any episcopal assemblies.
That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

We are the Finnish Orthodox Church. Not the Scandinavian Orthodox Church. IIRC the EP's Tomos explicitly defines that we are to be the Church of those people who reside within the Republic of Finland.

Though I certainly wouldn't mind if we were molded into a Scandinavian church. It would be cool if we could collect taxes from Danes, Swedes and Norwegians. angel
I was thinking more on evangelizing your neighbors rather than the Judas image....but that's the idea: Scandinavia is a region, and it has a Church (like North America, but that's a different issue).

Chambesy knows what I am talking about: its explicit exception of Finland in defining Scandinavia confirms it.
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« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2013, 04:05:32 PM »

Why shouldn't, for instance, the Orthodox Episcopal Assembly of Scandinavia be under Archbishop Leo of Finland?  Does all those Greek bishops that Isä points out have something to do with it?

Finland is undisputedly a canonical territory of the Finnish Church therefore there is no reason for Finland to be included in any episcopal assemblies.
That wasn't my question: why isn't all of Scandinavia undisputedly its canonical territory, seeing as it has a local Church.

We are the Finnish Orthodox Church. Not the Scandinavian Orthodox Church. IIRC the EP's Tomos explicitly defines that we are to be the Church of those people who reside within the Republic of Finland.

Though I certainly wouldn't mind if we were molded into a Scandinavian church. It would be cool if we could collect taxes from Danes, Swedes and Norwegians. angel
I was thinking more on evangelizing your neighbors rather than the Judas image...

We could do that but not under our autonomous church. The Finnish parish in Sweden is a regular part of the EP .
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« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2013, 04:06:44 PM »

Chambesy knows what I am talking about: its explicit exception of Finland in defining Scandinavia confirms it.

Quote?
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« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2013, 05:19:32 PM »

The constant drumbeat droning on about the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Patriarchate , the location of the Patriarch's offices and so on, is frankly tiresome and repetitive, not to mention disrespectful. Most of us have pet peeves about the behavior of one jurisdiction, bishop, patriarch, priest or another. If we all behaved like some of us and brought the same points up over and over -- well, we'd be a great evangelizing tool - for the non Orthodox.

No institution run by man is perfect, no living person is without sin and I'm not suggesting that legitimate points of disagreement not be brought up or that we ignore them,  but it's gotten to the point where many of us simply don't post news about the EP out of a desire not to deal with the "same old same old" every time.

Sometimes being online here is like being stuck at an annual parish meeting that never ends. You know, the type where Yurko' s or Niko's father insulted Mitro' s or Alex's grandmother in 1972 and  they bring it up every year no matter the topic.
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« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2013, 05:29:45 PM »

Sometimes being online here is like being stuck at an annual parish meeting that never ends. You know, the type where Yurko' s or Niko's father insulted Mitro' s or Alex's grandmother in 1972 and  they bring it up every year no matter the topic.

And that actually are very important issues.
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« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2013, 08:20:22 PM »

Chambesy knows what I am talking about: its explicit exception of Finland in defining Scandinavia confirms it.

Quote?
Quote
3.  The regions in which Episcopal Assemblies will be created in a first stage are defined as follows:


xi. Scandinavian countries (except Finland).
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« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2013, 08:25:30 PM »

Chambesy knows what I am talking about: its explicit exception of Finland in defining Scandinavia confirms it.

Quote?
Quote
3.  The regions in which Episcopal Assemblies will be created in a first stage are defined as follows:


xi. Scandinavian countries (except Finland).

Actually, it was my addition to Polish translation of the official documents (surprisingly we published them fully first). There wasn't that in them.

Still not getting what your point is.
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« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2013, 08:43:51 PM »

Chambesy knows what I am talking about: its explicit exception of Finland in defining Scandinavia confirms it.

Quote?
Quote
3.  The regions in which Episcopal Assemblies will be created in a first stage are defined as follows:


xi. Scandinavian countries (except Finland).

Actually, it was my addition to Polish translation of the official documents (surprisingly we published them fully first). There wasn't that in them.
The official Greek (and we know that's what counts in the sticking point on this):
Quote
3. Αἱ περιοχαί, εἰς τάς ὁποίας θά δημιουργηθοῦν εἰς ἕν πρῶτον
στάδιον Ἐπισκοπικαί συνελεύσεις, ὁρίζονται ὡς ἑξῆς:
xi. Σκανδιναυϊκαί Χῶραι (ἐκτός τῆς Φιλλανδίας).
http://assemblyofbishops.org/assets/files/docs/chambesy/diasporadecision-gr-pdf.pdf
Still not getting what your point is.
Like North America, Scandinavia has a local Church in it. Even better than North America, everyone recognizes that Church as the canonical jurisdiction in Finland, which exists as a constituent part of Scandinavia.  There is no reason why the Church of Finland should not, per canon 2 of the Second Ecumenical Council, exercise jurisdiction throughout Scandinavia (or, to use the geo-political term, the Nordic Council), and absolutely no reason at all why the Phanar should be running the Church there at all.
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