Author Topic: Keep the Filioque  (Read 23816 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #360 on: September 21, 2013, 08:27:24 PM »
I couldn't careless if you had a PhD with highest honors in Latin, doesn't make you some authority on the subject/

I didn't notice these gems until now! 
Could careless, couldn't don't really know Mor but I think you get my point.

Have had geez what is that past particle or something?

I sure am not a master of my native tongue

And yet you're somehow qualified to critique me as a Latinist.  Bravo.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #361 on: September 21, 2013, 08:31:20 PM »
Unfortunately, degrees don't seem to matter on the internet. Only in real life, where most people don't even argue about this stuff in the first place.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #362 on: September 21, 2013, 08:31:56 PM »
Credentials mean nothing when compared to arguments. I couldn't careless if you had a PhD with highest honors in Latin, doesn't make you some authority on the subject/

lulz

LOUDER:I am never disappointed when I am reminded how much our pop culture has devalued academic accomplishment while elevating opinion to an altar upon which it is worshipped like a Babylonian gold idol.

I'll add my voice to that! It sums up much of what happens here ...  :P :P ::)


I've played that game!



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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #363 on: September 21, 2013, 08:32:27 PM »
Unfortunately, degrees don't seem to matter on the internet. Only in real life, where most people don't even argue about this stuff in the first place.

You've never been to my house. ;)
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #364 on: September 21, 2013, 10:30:46 PM »
I couldn't careless if you had a PhD with highest honors in Latin, doesn't make you some authority on the subject/

I didn't notice these gems until now! 
Could careless, couldn't don't really know Mor but I think you get my point.

Have had geez what is that past particle or something?

I sure am not a master of my native tongue

And yet you're somehow qualified to critique me as a Latinist.  Bravo.

It's the yellow dot...beats a PhD any day of the week.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline LBK

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #365 on: September 21, 2013, 10:49:19 PM »

It's the yellow dot...beats a PhD any day of the week.

ZING!!  :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline ignatius

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #366 on: September 21, 2013, 11:11:19 PM »
In Roman symbolism, wasn't the dove a symbol of 'peace'?
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Father H

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #367 on: September 27, 2013, 10:35:26 PM »
Unfortunately, degrees don't seem to matter on the internet. Only in real life, where most people don't even argue about this stuff in the first place.

lol.  Post of month (and no, I am not kidding). 
Note to self:  abstain from internet when possible.   
It matters in "real life" only in classes with people who have already been in the real world.  But even in classes, there are less boundaries than used to exist.  I can't wait to tell my ethics class (of medical professionals) that I am a priest, which won't happen until the 4th week. 
You are right that in general, people in real life don't even argue about this stuff.  In fact, most people are glad, if they can understand it, to have any nuggets of wisdom that surpass the normal garbage that they encounter daily.   

Offline Father H

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #368 on: September 27, 2013, 10:37:46 PM »
I couldn't careless if you had a PhD with highest honors in Latin, doesn't make you some authority on the subject/

I didn't notice these gems until now! 
Could careless, couldn't don't really know Mor but I think you get my point.

Have had geez what is that past particle or something?

I sure am not a master of my native tongue

And yet you're somehow qualified to critique me as a Latinist.  Bravo.

It's the yellow dot...beats a PhD any day of the week.

 ::)

I used to like you.  Give me back my gift of frankincense.   :P

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #369 on: September 28, 2013, 03:42:58 PM »
Unfortunately, degrees don't seem to matter on the internet. Only in real life, where most people don't even argue about this stuff in the first place.

lol.  Post of month (and no, I am not kidding). 
Note to self:  abstain from internet when possible.   
It matters in "real life" only in classes with people who have already been in the real world.  But even in classes, there are less boundaries than used to exist.  I can't wait to tell my ethics class (of medical professionals) that I am a priest, which won't happen until the 4th week. 
You are right that in general, people in real life don't even argue about this stuff.  In fact, most people are glad, if they can understand it, to have any nuggets of wisdom that surpass the normal garbage that they encounter daily.   
with the advent of reality TV, real life has been abolished, after decades of People Magazine and the National Enquirer making it obsolete.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #370 on: September 28, 2013, 05:08:21 PM »
I used to like you.  Give me back my gift of frankincense.   :P

Um, what incense, Father?  :)

(The yellow dot thing was a joke, btw...)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 05:08:46 PM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #371 on: September 28, 2013, 05:13:39 PM »
I couldn't careless if you had a PhD with highest honors in Latin, doesn't make you some authority on the subject/

I didn't notice these gems until now! 
Could careless, couldn't don't really know Mor but I think you get my point.

Have had geez what is that past particle or something?

I sure am not a master of my native tongue

And yet you're somehow qualified to critique me as a Latinist.  Bravo.

I wouldn't worry to much about people on the internet questioning my credentials, Dr. Rdr. Scamandrius.
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aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #372 on: September 28, 2013, 05:34:04 PM »
I used to like you.  Give me back my gift of frankincense.   :P

Um, what incense, Father?  :)

(The yellow dot thing was a joke, btw...)

"To incense" means in many an "Orthodox" language to praise or flatter someone, unlike in English where it can mean the opposite: to get mad at smth/smb or annoy.

Also, somebody who hasn't been to church much is called "unincensed" in Greek.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 05:35:24 PM by Romaios »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #373 on: September 28, 2013, 05:43:35 PM »
Well that's definitely something I never knew until today.  :)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #374 on: September 29, 2013, 02:07:22 PM »
I couldn't careless if you had a PhD with highest honors in Latin, doesn't make you some authority on the subject/

I didn't notice these gems until now! 
Could careless, couldn't don't really know Mor but I think you get my point.

Have had geez what is that past particle or something?

I sure am not a master of my native tongue

And yet you're somehow qualified to critique me as a Latinist.  Bravo.

I wouldn't worry to much about people on the internet questioning my credentials, Dr. Rdr. Scamandrius.

You're right, Cyrillic, but as I'm no fan of Achronos and he's no fan of mine,  I took it more personally than I should have.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #375 on: September 29, 2013, 02:11:37 PM »
This is how terrible my memory has become I don't even remember writing the above.

But yeah I don't care what degrees you have, unless you are using it in the context of a blank waving contest.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 02:19:00 PM by Achronos »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #376 on: September 29, 2013, 02:18:53 PM »
This is how terrible my memory has become I don't even remember writing the above.

But yeah I don't care what degrees you have, unless you are using it in the context of a  penis waving contest.

Because that's exactly what I was doing.

Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline Shiny

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #377 on: September 29, 2013, 02:20:34 PM »
This is how terrible my memory has become I don't even remember writing the above.

But yeah I don't care what degrees you have, unless you are using it in the context of a  penis waving contest.

Because that's exactly what I was doing.


Yeah that is exactly what you are doing.

Anytime you appeal to your own accomplishments in order to "make" an argument it is questionable at best.

All you are trying to do is assert your superiority over anyone else.

Now get mad again like you always do. Call me a troll or an idiot because that's all you got.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 02:21:06 PM by Achronos »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #378 on: September 29, 2013, 02:31:17 PM »
Anytime you appeal to your own accomplishments in order to "make" an argument it is questionable at best.

All you are trying to do is assert your superiority over anyone else.

If you think his argument was "I have a PhD in Latin so shut the ____ up", you aren't thinking when you read. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #379 on: September 29, 2013, 02:42:27 PM »
Bringing up credentials in a context in which a person questions the basis for your assertions is not an appeal to accomplishments. It's an appeal to experience. It's saying, in essence, "I know about this topic because I worked on it for hundreds/thousands of hours, wrote a thesis/dissertation, took qualifying exams, etc., so I have a lot of experience with it, and that experience/those papers/exams have been confirmed by my peers in the field (i.e., thesis/dissertation committe, department chair, etc.), leading to my degree." It is most definitely not saying "I have a degree and you don't, therefore I am right and you are not."

If you don't want to listen to other people who have degrees in the field(s) under consideration, that's on you, but please do not attempt to reduce the very hard work that goes into getting a degree into an excuse by arrogant people to wave their credentials in other people's faces. That's not what it's about, and it's a rather ugly stereotype to be propagating about other people just because they've worked really hard on something that is important to them. I don't know what you do for a living, Achronos, but I would think you would find it very inappropriate for someone to seize upon it in order to make you out to be a jerk when you're just doing what you've been trained/trained yourself to do in order to work and live.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #380 on: September 29, 2013, 03:08:30 PM »
Anytime you appeal to your own accomplishments in order to "make" an argument it is questionable at best.

All you are trying to do is assert your superiority over anyone else.

If you think his argument was "I have a PhD in Latin so shut the ____ up", you aren't thinking when you read. 
Orthonorm called my credentials into question by implying I'm some lowly high school teacher who couldn't possibly know anything about Latin or even be called a Latinist.  I have a B.A. in Classical Languages, an M.A. in Classical Language another in English and my Ph.D. in Classical Studies with my area of concentration being Late Antiquity, focusing on the Latin West from 200-700 A.D. I hope this clears up any question about my credentials to discuss anything Latin related.  If you need anything more before I submit future posts, please PM me.

No your reading comprehension needs work.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #381 on: September 29, 2013, 03:22:01 PM »
Bringing up credentials in a context in which a person questions the basis for your assertions is not an appeal to accomplishments.
Uh yes it is Jeremy.

If you can't make a good argument for which you are discussion and then pull out your cred in order to justify poor arguments, that is an appeal to past achievments rather than THE ACTUAL ARGUMENTS.

That is my entire point which you and the others here have consistently missed.

Arguments matter not the papers that are framed up on the wall.

Guess what Jeremy, there have been plenty of people who have PhDs that are total hacks.

It doesn't make you an expert at anything.


Quote
It's an appeal to experience.
Outside of the degrees what experience then?

Because working towards those degrees are not real life experiences. Period.

Quote
It's saying, in essence, "I know about this topic because I worked on it for hundreds/thousands of hours, wrote a thesis/dissertation, took qualifying exams, etc., so I have a lot of experience with it, and that experience/those papers/exams have been confirmed by my peers in the field (i.e., thesis/dissertation committe, department chair, etc.), leading to my degree." It is most definitely not saying "I have a degree and you don't, therefore I am right and you are not."
We don't know what he did to work for it, all we know is he has papers.

Again it doesn't matter. Stick to the arguments because the proof is in the pudding.

And let's not get into the standards of higher education on getting those degrees. The majority of all bachelor degree graduates have retained zip from their education.

Quote
but please do not attempt to reduce the very hard work that goes into getting a degree into an excuse by arrogant people to wave their credentials in other people's faces.
Where is my reduction? Getting defensive now Jeremy?

And yes that is EXACTLY what he did above. You clearly need to work on reading too.

Quote
That's not what it's about, and it's a rather ugly stereotype to be propagating about other people just because they've worked really hard on something that is important to them.
OK so what?

Quote
I don't know what you do for a living, Achronos, but I would think you would find it very inappropriate for someone to seize upon it in order to make you out to be a jerk when you're just doing what you've been trained/trained yourself to do in order to work and live.
That doesn't make any sense.

Go ahead and disparage what I do for a living.

I am satisfied and happy with my decisions in life, and I don't feel the need to point to any of it to assert me being better than others here.

Nor do I need to point to my credentials in order to make an argument.

scamandrius has done this in the past, this is not just the first time.

You see Jeremy, older people love to point to their own successes in the past as a means to overcome their own personal problems with age and then pass that judgment over younger people such as myself because hey we have more upside.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 03:24:31 PM by Achronos »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #382 on: September 29, 2013, 04:39:00 PM »
I have a PhD in forumology and it is my professional opinion that this thread is a travesty.  I will be using it as an example of what not to do in my next book due out in stores in November.  Mention this post and you get a 10% discount.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #383 on: September 29, 2013, 05:14:06 PM »
I have a PhD in forumology and it is my professional opinion that this thread is a travesty.  I will be using it as an example of what not to do in my next book due out in stores in November.  Mention this post and you get a 10% discount.
Good thing you aren't wasting included bookmarks.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #384 on: September 29, 2013, 05:35:01 PM »
I don't really want to get into a back-and-forth about this, but my point is that to treat a degree as though it is only a 'piece of paper that is framed up on a wall' just because there certainly are some PhD's that are hacks (there are hacks in every walk of life, but that doesn't generally devalue whatever profession they're in, only them as individuals) does not accurately represent what is actually involved in getting a degree, or what having a degree actually means. It's not the be-all and end-all of any argument, nor a free pass to wave your credentials in anyone's face, but it does represent real work and real knowledge gained in a given field. To say "We don't know what he did to work for it, we just know he has papers" is odd. We might not know the exact credit-hours formula (this varies by university; while I am done with courses, from what I can remember, at my current university it is 36 hours + qualifying exams or 24 + thesis), this is largely irrelevant, as the 'papers' are what you get for doing the work, so by virtue of having the papers, we can know that he (or anyone who is granted a degree) has done the work. At any reputable university, they're not handed out just for showing up. That was my whole point. The degree represents the work, and the confirmation of the work as valuable and scientifically valid (for scientific fields, that is) in so far that they are accepted toward the degree.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #385 on: September 29, 2013, 05:39:56 PM »
If the filioque were to be kept, it would be "qui ex patri per filium procedit", as that would make more sense, because the Father is the only source of the Godhead. All three members of the Trinity are distinct, and implying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son causes theological absurdities, in addition to not being approved by an ecumenical council.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #386 on: September 29, 2013, 06:09:29 PM »
Anytime you appeal to your own accomplishments in order to "make" an argument it is questionable at best.

All you are trying to do is assert your superiority over anyone else.

If you think his argument was "I have a PhD in Latin so shut the ____ up", you aren't thinking when you read. 
Orthonorm called my credentials into question by implying I'm some lowly high school teacher who couldn't possibly know anything about Latin or even be called a Latinist.  I have a B.A. in Classical Languages, an M.A. in Classical Language another in English and my Ph.D. in Classical Studies with my area of concentration being Late Antiquity, focusing on the Latin West from 200-700 A.D. I hope this clears up any question about my credentials to discuss anything Latin related.  If you need anything more before I submit future posts, please PM me.

No your reading comprehension needs work.

Keep digging, friend...one day we'll all end up in such a hole, but you will have been prepared.
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Offline edati

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #387 on: September 29, 2013, 06:51:09 PM »
Anytime you appeal to your own accomplishments in order to "make" an argument it is questionable at best.

All you are trying to do is assert your superiority over anyone else.

If you think his argument was "I have a PhD in Latin so shut the ____ up", you aren't thinking when you read. 
Orthonorm called my credentials into question by implying I'm some lowly high school teacher who couldn't possibly know anything about Latin or even be called a Latinist.  I have a B.A. in Classical Languages, an M.A. in Classical Language another in English and my Ph.D. in Classical Studies with my area of concentration being Late Antiquity, focusing on the Latin West from 200-700 A.D. I hope this clears up any question about my credentials to discuss anything Latin related.  If you need anything more before I submit future posts, please PM me.

No your reading comprehension needs work.

Keep digging, friend...one day we'll all end up in such a hole, but you will have been prepared.

scamandrius' argument started way up than Achronos posted,


That's not how your Creed reads.  That's how you want us to believe you mean it, but you can't prove that conclusively from your own Church's historical records, nor can you argue that this is the plain sense of the Latin text or its various translations. 

Exactly.  You cannot have one verb (procedit) mean one thing when it relates to "from the Father" (ex patre) and then mean another thing when it relates to the "and from the Son" (filioque).   Speaking as a Latinist, I can find no instance in classical or post-classical Latin where the verb has two different (if not opposite) meanings when it is employed only one time for two different prepositional phrases.  Show me some evidence from the TLL or Lewis and Short and I'll reconsider it.  It's nothing but linguistic gymnastics that would make Suetonius blush!
Actually, some words are capable of analogical or even equivocal predication .

Yes, but that is NOT what's going on here.  Again, you show me some other Latin EVIDENCE that procedit will assume different meanings with each object of the same preposition "ex" and I'll reconsider my objection (not to the filioque theologically, but to your linguistic contortions).  Until you can provide EVIDENCE in the Latin language that this has happened before, I will reject it.

I'm still waiting for filioquists to answer the argument presented, AND the evidence that scamandrius was asking. What do you have Achronos?

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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #388 on: September 29, 2013, 07:15:25 PM »
If the filioque were to be kept, it would be "qui ex patri per filium procedit", as that would make more sense, because the Father is the only source of the Godhead. All three members of the Trinity are distinct, and implying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son causes theological absurdities, in addition to not being approved by an ecumenical council.
The creed is about the origin of the Spirit from the Father, while the per filium is not. Neither the filioque nor the per filium belong in the creed.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #389 on: October 01, 2013, 01:54:27 PM »
Yes, even the per filium formulation does not belong. The Holy Spirit is sent through the Son from the Father, so that would have to be specified if any changes were to be made to the creed. However, I would not change the Creed without another ecumenical council, and I think that the current formulation is more than satisfactory. Even in the West, the Pope who crowned Charlemagne inscribed the Creed on St. Peter's Basilica without the Filioque.

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #390 on: October 01, 2013, 03:05:33 PM »
The creed was designed to speak to the origination of the Son and the Spirit, i.e., theologia properly speaking. The per filium is not about that and has no place in the creed. The creed should be accepted, without any changes, as it was put forth at the Council of Constantinople.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #391 on: October 01, 2013, 03:08:40 PM »
However, I would not change the Creed without another ecumenical council, and I think that the current formulation is more than satisfactory.
I would not change the creed even at an ecumenical council. It should stand as it has been set forth by the God-inspired Fathers of the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381).
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #392 on: October 01, 2013, 03:12:29 PM »
However, I would not change the Creed without another ecumenical council, and I think that the current formulation is more than satisfactory.
I would not change the creed even at an ecumenical council. It should stand as it has been set forth by the God-inspired Fathers of the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381).
Well, it if was an ecumenical council, then it would be God-inspired Fathers setting forth the revision.  That being said, I think there is a snowball's chance in the Amazon of the Church deciding to change the Creed, so I'm not too concerned.  :laugh:
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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #393 on: October 01, 2013, 04:37:29 PM »
However, I would not change the Creed without another ecumenical council, and I think that the current formulation is more than satisfactory.
I would not change the creed even at an ecumenical council. It should stand as it has been set forth by the God-inspired Fathers of the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381).
Well, it if was an ecumenical council, then it would be God-inspired Fathers setting forth the revision.  That being said, I think there is a snowball's chance in the Amazon of the Church deciding to change the Creed, so I'm not too concerned.  :laugh:
I still would have no problem returning to wording of Nicea. I mean, that's the way we recite it the Byzantine parish I attend anyway.  ;D
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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #394 on: October 01, 2013, 04:47:10 PM »
However, I would not change the Creed without another ecumenical council, and I think that the current formulation is more than satisfactory.
I would not change the creed even at an ecumenical council. It should stand as it has been set forth by the God-inspired Fathers of the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381).
Well, it if was an ecumenical council, then it would be God-inspired Fathers setting forth the revision.  That being said, I think there is a snowball's chance in the Amazon of the Church deciding to change the Creed, so I'm not too concerned.  :laugh:
It would be a change in the creed that would alter the original intention, which was to speak about the origin of the Son and Spirit. To add the per filium would mean that the creed no longer dealt with the Spirit's hypostatic origin, but simply His progression as grace. As I see it that would be a rather radical and completely unnecessary change to the creed.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:47:49 PM by Apotheoun »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #395 on: October 01, 2013, 05:25:39 PM »
I don't really want to get into a back-and-forth about this, but my point is that to treat a degree as though it is only a 'piece of paper that is framed up on a wall' just because there certainly are some PhD's that are hacks (there are hacks in every walk of life, but that doesn't generally devalue whatever profession they're in, only them as individuals) does not accurately represent what is actually involved in getting a degree, or what having a degree actually means. It's not the be-all and end-all of any argument, nor a free pass to wave your credentials in anyone's face, but it does represent real work and real knowledge gained in a given field. To say "We don't know what he did to work for it, we just know he has papers" is odd. We might not know the exact credit-hours formula (this varies by university; while I am done with courses, from what I can remember, at my current university it is 36 hours + qualifying exams or 24 + thesis), this is largely irrelevant, as the 'papers' are what you get for doing the work, so by virtue of having the papers, we can know that he (or anyone who is granted a degree) has done the work. At any reputable university, they're not handed out just for showing up. That was my whole point. The degree represents the work, and the confirmation of the work as valuable and scientifically valid (for scientific fields, that is) in so far that they are accepted toward the degree.

They are handed out pretty much for just showing up. Even at reputable Universities, but the point here is, let your words HERE be louder than the letters you think you have to offer as back-up when making the most propedeutic of points.

Let's pick on Romeo.

I think he told me once he was from Romania and studied something, maybe philology, I don't remember. I don't really care.

This was in response to some compliment by me: like how many PhDs do you have??!?!?!?, cause his posts here show he knows what he is talking about.

Nothing that gets talked about here for the most part, especially regarding language, theology, or history is terribly sophisticated, so no one here needs to tell me how they wasted their time to impress me. No need to resort to University cred. If you are a REAL doctor, like give out meds, then please let me know that when you talk about subjects related to health. Or if you dismiss some science around here, OTHERS would need your credentials cause the science literacy around is about nil if you look at stuff like creation or diet thread.

There are a lot of people here who are obvious experts to any informed lay person reading their posts (this is not inclusive):

Punch
Romeo
Opus
Isa
Ionnis
* (Yeah, I am serious about *)

Two out of those folks I don't necessarily get butterflies in my stomach when I see their name and yet they have an obvious grasp and expertise of certain subjects and I would be a fool to ignore them.

One of them is a high school teacher with a PhD!!!!!!!! and I bet his students reap a lot from his studies and expansive knowledge.

So show, don't tell. Many here should have learned in that grade school before they got their PhD.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #396 on: October 01, 2013, 05:28:09 PM »
Orthonorm called my credentials into question by implying I'm some lowly high school teacher who couldn't possibly know anything about Latin or even be called a Latinist.  I have a B.A. in Classical Languages, an M.A. in Classical Language another in English and my Ph.D. in Classical Studies with my area of concentration being Late Antiquity, focusing on the Latin West from 200-700 A.D. I hope this clears up any question about my credentials to discuss anything Latin related.  If you need anything more before I submit future posts, please PM me.

LOL. I didn't see all this fall out. Talk about spin.

I didn't do the above. I pointed out you were a high school teacher. You made and connected the rest of the dots.

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« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 05:29:27 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #397 on: October 01, 2013, 06:14:07 PM »
Bottom Line:

You keep the Filioque

We are happy without it.

End of subject.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #398 on: October 01, 2013, 06:54:01 PM »
Bottom Line:

You keep the Filioque

We are happy without it.

End of subject.

Except many of the arguments against it, scam's for instance, make zero sense.

And really as someone who doesn't care, Papist has been clear elsewhere and what little I've read here that his understanding of the symbol of faith is rather Orthodox.

I'll let the teachers figure this all out. I would rather skip school frankly.
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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #399 on: October 01, 2013, 07:06:46 PM »
Bottom Line:

You keep the Filioque

We are happy without it.

End of subject.

Except many of the arguments against it, scam's for instance, make zero sense.

And really as someone who doesn't care, Papist has been clear elsewhere and what little I've read here that his understanding of the symbol of faith is rather Orthodox.

I'll let the teachers figure this all out. I would rather skip school frankly.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #400 on: October 10, 2013, 07:48:15 PM »
The issue is whether the Father is the sole source/originator (ἐκπορεύεσθαι) of the Spirit or not. Whether procedit in Latin can mean send is an entirely different issue.

The question is this: if we use the Greek word ekporeuesthai to describe the procession of the Holy Spirit, instead of the word procedit would it be heresy?
That is why I put forward the proposal in the post below:

Maybe the Latins should come up with a new way of translating the portion of the creed that concerns the Holy Spirit, and in the process truly clarify matters and help to bring about a real common understanding of the Spirit's existential origin from the Father alone.

Something like this:  "Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui egreditur ex Patre, qui cum Patre et Filio adoratur et glorificatur . . ."
Perhaps if the Roman Church basically designated a Latin word (e.g., egreditur) that would exclusively be used to translate the Greek term ἐκπορεύεσθαι real progress could be made on the issue of the origin of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, I admit that my own take on the issue is that Rome really does not want to clarify the issue if the clarification involves either relativizing or worse repudiating (i.e., from the Roman Catholic perspective) what was put forward at Lyons II and Florence.

At the risk of going off on a tanget, have you ever read the paper "Roman Presidency and Christian Unity in our Time" (Woodstock Forum, September 25, 2005) by Father Thomas Hopko? Particularly this part:

Quote
He [the pope] would have to confirm the original text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol of Faith and defend its use in all the churches, beginning with his own. At the very least (should some churches for pastoral reasons be permitted to keep the filioque in their creed), he would insist on an explanation that would clearly teach that the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Son” only in relation to God’s saving dispensation in the world. He would make certain that no Christian be tempted to believe that the Holy Spirit essentially proceeds from the Father and the Son together, and certainly not “from both as from one" (ab utroque sicut ab uno).
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #401 on: October 10, 2013, 09:37:26 PM »
At the risk of going off on a tanget, have you ever read the paper "Roman Presidency and Christian Unity in our Time" (Woodstock Forum, September 25, 2005) by Father Thomas Hopko? Particularly this part:

Quote
He [the pope] would have to confirm the original text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol of Faith and defend its use in all the churches, beginning with his own. At the very least (should some churches for pastoral reasons be permitted to keep the filioque in their creed), he would insist on an explanation that would clearly teach that the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Son” only in relation to God’s saving dispensation in the world. He would make certain that no Christian be tempted to believe that the Holy Spirit essentially proceeds from the Father and the Son together, and certainly not “from both as from one" (ab utroque sicut ab uno).
Yeah, I read it years ago.
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St. Theodore Studite

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #402 on: April 16, 2015, 10:07:51 PM »
This is why the Bishop of Rome forbade the Filioque:

"HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI"

"I, Leo, put this here for love and protection of Orthodox Faith"

He was doing his job as an Orthodox Hierarch.  It was for love and protection of Orthodox Faith.  You are assigning false motive ("Church Unity") and this is intellectually dishonest.

In fact, Unity of Faith is the basis of Church Unity.  And this is what all Orthodox Hierarchs are sworn to uphold.

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #403 on: April 16, 2015, 10:15:46 PM »
To say that the Filioque was added to defeat Arianism is merely a pretext.  It was inserted for a political reason.

Offline Xavier

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #404 on: April 17, 2015, 06:30:11 AM »
The same St. Leo III who wrote those words confessed dogmatically the doctrine of the Filioque, though he did not wish to add it to the Creed at the time. He stated, "the Holy Spirit, proceeding equally from the Father and from the Son, consubstantial, coeternal with the Father and the Son. The Father, complete God in Himself, the Son, complete God begotten of the Father, the Holy Spirit, complete God proceeding from the Father and the Son..." ("Spiritum Sanctum a Patre et a Filio aequaliter procedentem, consubstantialem, coaeternum Patri et Filio. Pater plenus Deus in se, Filius plenus Deus a Patre genitus, Spiritus Sanctus plenus Deus a Patre et Filio procedens." )

Patriarch St. Tarasius of Constantinople acknowledged the East has always believed what is denied by some posters here, "And in the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father through the Son, and Who is acknowledged to be Himself God." (ο Πνευμα το αγιον, το κυριον και ζωοποιον, το εκ του Πατροσ δια του Υιου εκπορευομενον.)

Numerous other Popes, Saints, Fathers and Doctors have declared the doctrine that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. St. Leo the Great, "as though there were not one Who begat, another Who is begotten, another Who proceeds from both.", Pope St. Hormisdas, "characteristic of the Spirit to proceed from Father and Son in one substance of deity.", the rejection of the doctrine professed here by a small section in Constantinople came much later.
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