Author Topic: Keep the Filioque  (Read 63349 times)

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Offline Peter J

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #675 on: July 20, 2015, 07:29:45 PM »
How is this:
-
You guys in the West Keep the Filioque
-
We in the East will somehow survive without it...

Can we settle this once and for all?

Now I've just got to decide whether to try and find a WRO parish near me so I can witness the change firsthand.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 07:31:01 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #676 on: July 21, 2015, 03:06:00 PM »
How is this:
-
You guys in the West Keep the Filioque
-
We in the East will somehow survive without it...

Can we settle this once and for all?

Yup, and the West will continue to fragment into thousands of denominations, while we remain unified.

The east is far from unified

Says the one living in the same glass house as Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Kasper.
St Hilary and St Athanasius were part of the same church as Arians. Unless heretics do not exist in you communion? :o

Eastern Orthodox, True Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox Kiev Patriarchate, Eastern Catholics, Assyrian Church of the East

Far from unified

To be fair to Cavaradossi, I have struck out those with whom his Church is not in communion (far more unified when you look at it that way).  If we're not going to be fair, though, let me know.  I love to play this game.
The claim was the west will keep dividing and th east was unified. If the west is spoken of as a whole. We have to match like with like. The east neither is unified.

Cavaradossi compared two Cardinals of the Church of Rome.  You were not matching like with like.
He broke the consistency, not me. Read up. I was matching like with like, he was not. Its clear as day.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 03:07:00 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #677 on: July 21, 2015, 03:54:00 PM »
How is this:
-
You guys in the West Keep the Filioque
-
We in the East will somehow survive without it...

Can we settle this once and for all?

Yup, and the West will continue to fragment into thousands of denominations, while we remain unified.

The east is far from unified

Says the one living in the same glass house as Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Kasper.
St Hilary and St Athanasius were part of the same church as Arians. Unless heretics do not exist in you communion? :o

Eastern Orthodox, True Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox Kiev Patriarchate, Eastern Catholics, Assyrian Church of the East

Far from unified

To be fair to Cavaradossi, I have struck out those with whom his Church is not in communion (far more unified when you look at it that way).  If we're not going to be fair, though, let me know.  I love to play this game.
The claim was the west will keep dividing and th east was unified. If the west is spoken of as a whole. We have to match like with like. The east neither is unified.

Cavaradossi compared two Cardinals of the Church of Rome.  You were not matching like with like.
He broke the consistency, not me. Read up. I was matching like with like, he was not. Its clear as day.

Then your line about SS Hilary and Athanasius should've been enough. 

Look, you wanted to get a cheap shot in, but you failed.  Just snipe more carefully next time. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Xavier

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #678 on: July 23, 2015, 09:16:00 AM »
The Catholic Church is not "western", She counts 1.2 billion members who, all considered, remain united fairly well across vast geographical boundaries, not to mention cultural and linguistic differences, under the episcopal college united to the See of Peter. As Belloc said, if this were not the work of divine Providence, it would not last. The Orthodox Churches remain united on a national level, since they preserve the ancient threefold structure handed down by all Tradition, of the Episcopate, Presbyterate or Priesthood and Deaconate unlike most of the Protestant denominations. On an international or universal level, they don't have a clear mechanism in place for settling disputes, since Orthodox ecclesiology, especially since the schism between East and West, does not generally admit any form of universal primacy, not even to the Ecumenical Patriarch. Whereas the Catholic Church retains the principle of a true and universal primacy, no less than local primacies which preserve unity on a national or regional level. Since any dissident Bishop or heterodox Cardinal can be excommunicated by the Pope, the union of the episcopal body under its visible head always remains a plain fact. Excommunications may not happen all the time for pastoral reasons, but they eventually could. Rahner was tolerated for a long time, mostly because he shrouded his heretical ideas in ambiguous terminology, with equivocal and sometimes contradictory pronouncements - finally he became too blatant in openly promoting his heretical opinion, and then the ax fell. I believe Kasper, who is also fond of equivocation and ambiguity, will soon do the same thing, perhaps at the upcoming synod, hopefully he will be silenced at that time, we will see. Anyway, that discussion belongs on another thread.

1. Now, where were we? Mor Ephrem, yes, certainly I agree the holy Fathers are not inerrant, but when two or more Fathers agree in exegeting a passage of Scripture, it is virtually certain that that doctrine belongs to the depositum fidei. So I ask again, when St. Athanasius says "David sings in the psalm [35:10], saying: "For with You is the font of Life;" because jointly with the Father the Son is indeed the source of the Holy Spirit." and St. Ambrose concurs that many have said this, ""Learn now that as the Father is the Fount of Life, so, too, many have stated that the Son is signified as the Fount of Life; so that, he says, with Thee, Almighty God, Thy Son is the Fount of Life. That is the Fount of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit is Life", is this to you a sufficient patristic attestation of the mediating role of the Son in the spiration of the Spirit? The references were given earlier and may also be found in the link. If the Father and the Son are jointly the Fount of the Spirit, then the Spirit is clearly not from one to the exclusion of the other, but from them Both. 

Quote
Was this quoted somewhere in this thread?  I don't recall having read it. 

Yes, here is the excerpt again, "Gelasios of Cyzicus testifies in History of the Council of Nicaea 2:22 [PG 85:1296C] that Bishop St. Leontios of Caesarea (1/13) declared on behalf of the Holy Fathers assembled there that "the Spirit proceeds from the Father, and is proper to the Son and gushes forth from Him." This statement can be found in Mansi II:868CD." Thus, I don't agree with your characterization of this doctrine being "late", given that it was openly taught here at Nicaea I.

Also, of course I don't expect you to be convinced just by my naming certain Saints, that's why I quoted St. Cyril, whom the Oriental Orthodox revere highly, "For, in that the Son is God, and from God according to nature (for He has had His birth from God the Father), the Spirit is both proper to Him and in Him and from Him, just as, to be sure, the same thing is understood to hold true in the case of God the Father Himself." He elsewhere explains the complementarity of the two formulas East and West would subsequently use, "the Spirit is from God the Father and, for that matter, from the Son, being poured forth substantially from both, that is to say, from the Father through the Son. St. Hilary likewise was cited,  "May I receive your Spirit Who takes His being from You through Your only Son." as were other Saints. This will do for now, I want to keep this brief as it is too long already, do you accept the testimonies of the five Saints above as representing the mind and the faith of your Church?
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Xavier

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #679 on: July 23, 2015, 09:18:53 AM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father ... The Orthodox Orient has, however, given a happy expression to this relationship with the formula dia tou Uiou ekporeuomenon (who takes his origin from the Father by or through the Son). St Basil already said of the Holy Spirit: "Through the Son (dia tou Uiou), who is one, he is joined to the Father, who is one, and by himself completes the Blessed Trinity" (Treatise on the Holy Spirit, XVIII, 45, Sources chrétiennes 17 bis, p. 408). St Maximus the Confessor said: "By nature (jusei) the Holy Spirit in his being (kat’ ousian) takes substantially (ousiodwV) his origin (ekporeuomenon) from the Father through the Son who is begotten (di’ Uiou gennhqentoV)" (Quaestiones ad Thalassium, LXIII, PG 90, 672 C). We find this again in St John Damascene ... “I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word coming from himself, and through his Word, having his Spirit issuing from him” (Dialogus contra Manichaeos 5, PG 94, 1512 B, ed. B. Kotter, Berlin 1981, p. 354; cf. PG 94, 848-849 A). This aspect of the Trinitarian mystery was confessed at the seventh Ecumenical council, meeting at Nicaea in 787, by the Patriarch of Constantinople, St Tarasius, who developed the Symbol as follows: "to Pneuma to agion, to kurion kai zwopoion, to ek tou Patros dia tou Uiou ekporeuomenon” (Mansi, XII, 1122 D) ...

The Father only generates the Son by breathing (proballein in Greek) through him the Holy Spirit and the Son is only begotten by the Father insofar as the spiration (probolh in Greek) passes through him. The Father is Father of the One Son only by being for him and through him the origin of the Holy Spirit.8 The Spirit does not precede the Son, since the Son characterizes as Father the Father from whom the Spirit takes his origin, according to the Trinitarian order.9 But the spiration of the Spirit from the Father takes place by and through (the two senses of dia in Greek) the generation of the Son, to which it gives its Trinitarian character. "

Do you agree specifically that the spiration of the Spirit takes place by and through the Son? This is how the Greek Orthodox theologians who compiled this study together with the Catholic Church understand the passages in St. Maximus and St. Damascene. St. Maximus says the Spirit takes His being from the Father through the Son who is begotten. St. Damascene says God is always Father since He has His Word coming forth from Himself, and through His Word, the Spirit issuing forth from Him. That is why it acknowledges "the Son is only begotten by the Father insofar as the spiration (probolh in Greek) passes through him. The Father is Father of the One Son only by being for him and through him the origin of the Holy Spirit."
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #680 on: July 23, 2015, 09:36:50 AM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father"

Cavaradossi has already explained that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son hypostatically, but energetically. The quoted part is a bit of ambiguous ecumenical double-speak.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 09:37:40 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #681 on: July 23, 2015, 01:31:24 PM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father"

Cavaradossi has already explained that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son hypostatically, but energetically. The quoted part is a bit of ambiguous ecumenical double-speak.
Isn't this problematic? Energies do not Beget, get begotten nor proceed. It is persons who Beget, are begotten and proceed.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 01:33:45 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #682 on: July 23, 2015, 01:39:40 PM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father"

Cavaradossi has already explained that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son hypostatically, but energetically. The quoted part is a bit of ambiguous ecumenical double-speak.
Isn't this problematic? Energies do not Beget, get begotten nor proceed. It is persons who Beget, are begotten and proceed.

Why don't you read up on what is meant by energies?

Offline Wandile

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #683 on: July 23, 2015, 01:42:53 PM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father"

Cavaradossi has already explained that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son hypostatically, but energetically. The quoted part is a bit of ambiguous ecumenical double-speak.
Isn't this problematic? Energies do not Beget, get begotten nor proceed. It is persons who Beget, are begotten and proceed.

Why don't you read up on what is meant by energies?
Why don't you answer my objection? Nice side step, though i would rather be proven mistaken by and explanation rather than a remark the can easily masquerade as smarts when in fact is ignorance.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 01:43:53 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #684 on: July 23, 2015, 01:58:31 PM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father"

Cavaradossi has already explained that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son hypostatically, but energetically. The quoted part is a bit of ambiguous ecumenical double-speak.
Isn't this problematic? Energies do not Beget, get begotten nor proceed. It is persons who Beget, are begotten and proceed.

Why don't you read up on what is meant by energies?
Why don't you answer my objection? Nice side step, though i would rather be proven mistaken by and explanation rather than a remark the can easily masquerade as smarts when in fact is ignorance.

Since you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about your post makes about as much sense as the average WPM post.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #685 on: July 23, 2015, 01:59:31 PM »
The Catholic Church is not "western", She counts 1.2 billion members who, all considered, remain united fairly well across vast geographical boundaries, not to mention cultural and linguistic differences, under the episcopal college united to the See of Peter.

Most of whom pray, worship, and live the Roman rite.  IOW, they are Western. 

Quote
The Orthodox Churches remain united on a national level, since they preserve the ancient threefold structure handed down by all Tradition, of the Episcopate, Presbyterate or Priesthood and Deaconate unlike most of the Protestant denominations.

What does "the ancient threefold structure handed down by all Tradition" have to do with being "united on a national level"?  Nothing. 

The Orthodox Church (it can be spoken of either in the singular or the plural, just like your own Church, though I suppose admitting this is not so convenient for you) is united in the Orthodox faith and in the Eucharist celebrated by Orthodox bishops and their local Churches.  Regional hierarchical structures developed early on and we maintain them because they are useful, but if they were all done away with, we would still have "the Orthodox Church" and it would still be one.  Eliminate the unity in Orthodox faith and the rest is, at best, suspect: for example, Roman Catholicism.         

Quote
On an international or universal level, they don't have a clear mechanism in place for settling disputes, since Orthodox ecclesiology, especially since the schism between East and West, does not generally admit any form of universal primacy, not even to the Ecumenical Patriarch.

What are "international" or "universal" disputes which require a "universal primacy" of one particular bishop to solve? 

Quote
Whereas the Catholic Church retains the principle of a true and universal primacy, no less than local primacies which preserve unity on a national or regional level. Since any dissident Bishop or heterodox Cardinal can be excommunicated by the Pope, the union of the episcopal body under its visible head always remains a plain fact. Excommunications may not happen all the time for pastoral reasons, but they eventually could.


Lots of things are possible in your Church's textbook theology which just do not happen in real life. 

Quote
Rahner was tolerated for a long time, mostly because he shrouded his heretical ideas in ambiguous terminology, with equivocal and sometimes contradictory pronouncements - finally he became too blatant in openly promoting his heretical opinion, and then the ax fell. I believe Kasper, who is also fond of equivocation and ambiguity, will soon do the same thing, perhaps at the upcoming synod, hopefully he will be silenced at that time, we will see.

There are better things to fantasise over. 

Quote
Anyway, that discussion belongs on another thread.

So you say after throwing your punches. 

Quote
1. Now, where were we? Mor Ephrem, yes, certainly I agree the holy Fathers are not inerrant, but when two or more Fathers agree in exegeting a passage of Scripture, it is virtually certain that that doctrine belongs to the depositum fidei.

A bishop is ordained by two or more bishops.  The depositum fidei is not recognised with the same minimum standard. 

Quote
So I ask again, when St. Athanasius says "David sings in the psalm [35:10], saying: "For with You is the font of Life;" because jointly with the Father the Son is indeed the source of the Holy Spirit." and St. Ambrose concurs that many have said this, ""Learn now that as the Father is the Fount of Life, so, too, many have stated that the Son is signified as the Fount of Life; so that, he says, with Thee, Almighty God, Thy Son is the Fount of Life. That is the Fount of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit is Life", is this to you a sufficient patristic attestation of the mediating role of the Son in the spiration of the Spirit? The references were given earlier and may also be found in the link. If the Father and the Son are jointly the Fount of the Spirit, then the Spirit is clearly not from one to the exclusion of the other, but from them Both. 

No, it's not "a sufficient patristic attestation".  I can come up with a similar patristic argument for the sinfulness of our Lady.  Are you willing to throw out the Immaculate Conception on the basis of "when two or more Fathers agree in exegeting a passage of Scripture, it is virtually certain that that doctrine belongs to the depositum fidei"?   

Quote
Yes, here is the excerpt again, "Gelasios of Cyzicus testifies in History of the Council of Nicaea 2:22 [PG 85:1296C] that Bishop St. Leontios of Caesarea (1/13) declared on behalf of the Holy Fathers assembled there that "the Spirit proceeds from the Father, and is proper to the Son and gushes forth from Him." This statement can be found in Mansi II:868CD." Thus, I don't agree with your characterization of this doctrine being "late", given that it was openly taught here at Nicaea I.

Greek, please. 

Quote
Also, of course I don't expect you to be convinced just by my naming certain Saints, that's why I quoted St. Cyril, whom the Oriental Orthodox revere highly, "For, in that the Son is God, and from God according to nature (for He has had His birth from God the Father), the Spirit is both proper to Him and in Him and from Him, just as, to be sure, the same thing is understood to hold true in the case of God the Father Himself." He elsewhere explains the complementarity of the two formulas East and West would subsequently use, "the Spirit is from God the Father and, for that matter, from the Son, being poured forth substantially from both, that is to say, from the Father through the Son. St. Hilary likewise was cited,  "May I receive your Spirit Who takes His being from You through Your only Son." as were other Saints. This will do for now, I want to keep this brief as it is too long already, do you accept the testimonies of the five Saints above as representing the mind and the faith of your Church?

No, because I'm not going to take a position based on out of context quotations translated in English by people unknown to me whom I cannot necessarily trust and offered by RC apologists who have been shown to play fast and loose with quotations in order to win arguments.  In your quotations, I see a lot of "through the Son" and "from the Son", but not so much "proceeds from the Son".  I cannot accept that all this means Filioque just because you want me to believe that.   
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 02:00:48 PM by Mor Ephrem »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Papist

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #686 on: July 23, 2015, 02:01:48 PM »
I think what is meant by the Spirit proceeding energetically from the Son is that the Spirit does not proceed from the son in his existence, but that he temporally proceeds from the Son when the Spirit is sent to create the world and divinize Christians. Eternal vs. Temporal procession. God's essence is God in and of himself, while God's energies are God in his interaction with creation.

Of course, I disagree with the view that the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Son energetically, but there it is.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #687 on: July 23, 2015, 05:05:11 PM »
I think what is meant by the Spirit proceeding energetically from the Son is that the Spirit does not proceed from the son in his existence, but that he temporally proceeds from the Son when the Spirit is sent to create the world and divinize Christians. Eternal vs. Temporal procession. God's essence is God in and of himself, while God's energies are God in his interaction with creation.

Of course, I disagree with the view that the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Son energetically, but there it is.

So all it really speaks of is temporal procession ? Because that i understand...
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Wandile

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #688 on: July 23, 2015, 05:06:58 PM »
Cyrillic, since you cited St. John Damascene and St. Maximus, please tell me do you agree with how the study cited earlier reads those two saints, in particular, "The Orthodox Orient does not, however, refuse all eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit in their origin from the Father"

Cavaradossi has already explained that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son hypostatically, but energetically. The quoted part is a bit of ambiguous ecumenical double-speak.
Isn't this problematic? Energies do not Beget, get begotten nor proceed. It is persons who Beget, are begotten and proceed.

Why don't you read up on what is meant by energies?
Why don't you answer my objection? Nice side step, though i would rather be proven mistaken by and explanation rather than a remark the can easily masquerade as smarts when in fact is ignorance.

Since you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about your post makes about as much sense as the average WPM post.
If all you mean is a temporal procession then I understand completely. Bare with me as I'm not used to eastern terminology
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Xavier

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #689 on: July 26, 2015, 03:00:30 AM »
Well, Wandile, the Eastern Fathers - St. Maximus, St. Gregory and others - use Energies to signify the divine attributes, as well as God's actions and operations, as they are outside the divine Essence, or ad extra. Whereas the divine Essence refers to God as He necessarily is in His own Triune Substance. The Catholic Church in Her dogmatic pronouncements distinguishes between God as He is in His own Essence and God as He is in us, for example in teaching of justification, "the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind ... each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills." God's justice in its substance, as He is in Himself, cannot be increased, changed, or taken away. But God's justice, as it is in us, can be. Thus, the energies are most relevant in the theology of theosis, sanctification and divinization. What God is by nature, we become by grace, sharing in His inner life through the indwelling presence of His grace in us. The Essence-Energies distinction is, in brief, an altogether legitimate one and unproblematic, except where it is misused by some modern Orthodox to destroy all eternal relationship between the Persons of the Son and the Spirit.

Because Essence and Energies are distinct, the clearest disproof of the error would be patristic teaching that the Holy Spirit receives His substance or essence, His nature or being, from the Father and the Son.

As the Angelic Doctor proves, the error that says the Holy Spirit proceeds energetically only but not hypostatically, because it denies the truth that He receives His substance in one eternal act of spiration or procession from the Father and the Son, destroys the distinction between the Son and the Spirit. As Cyrillic acknowledges, his position (contrary to the teaching of theologians of his own Church cited in the study when they make that necessary clarification) refuses any eternal relationship between the Son and the Spirit. But because it is only the eternal relationships between Them that distinguishes the Persons from one another, to deny eternal relationship between the Son and the Spirit is to deny the distinction between Them and so those who do so reduce the Holy Trinity to a crypto-Sabellian Dyad. The Persons of the Son and the Spirit are distinguished only in that the Spirit receives His essence, or substance, in His own distinct hypostasis, through the Son, while the Son does not receive His through the Spirit.

Cyrillic, Cavaradossi can answer for himself, I'm sure. But for what it's worth, he earlier said St. Cyril "seems to affirm it [substantial or hypostatic procession] but only weakly". [St. Cyril is cited in the study as follows, "The Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son; clearly, he is of the divine substance, proceeding (proion) substantially (ousiwdwV) in it and from it" (St Cyril of Alexandria, Thesaurus, PG 75, 585 A)") Do you agree with that, then?

You addressed the Latin Fathers who unanimously teach this doctrine (as epitomized in St. Hormisdas' solemn profession of Faith, "characteristic of the Spirit to proceed from Father and Son in one substance of deity.") with a cursory "not infallible" dismissal. Since the Latin and Greek Fathers cannot be in contradiction, that is prima facie evidence that you misunderstand the Greek Fathers when you claim they exclude hypostatic procession.

St. Maximus is your chief proof of this, you claim a clear and unambiguous statement by the same Saintly monk that "By nature (ϕυσει) the Holy Spirit in His being (κατ’ ουσιαν) takes substantially (ουσιοδως) His origin (εκπορευομενον) from the Father through the Son Who is begotten (δι’ Υιου γεννηθεντος)." needs to be interpreted through the lens of another statement where he talks about manifestation. The truth is, like us and the Latin Fathers, the Saint doesn't see energetic manifestation and eternal substantial or hypostatic procession as being contradictory at all. If you disagree, we are at an impasse and will leave it there.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 03:01:27 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Xavier

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #690 on: July 26, 2015, 03:06:02 AM »
Mor Ephrem, I think I was more than fair in admitting the Orthodox Church preserves unity on a national level, while Orthodox4Christ was saying the "west" (in the sense of grouping us with Protestants) was divided into several denominations. The Protestants deny several dogmas the ancient Church clearly professed, which Catholics and Orthodox confess in common. But anyway, go ahead with what you want to say about the Papacy if you like, I just didn't want to go into primacy here, because that is at best tangential to the topic of the Filioque, I'll bump another thread for that shortly. Now, you say you want to see the word "proceeds" in the Fathers before you can agree they taught the Filioque.

That is easy enough - St. Ambrose says, "The Holy Spirit also, when He proceeds from the Father and the Son, is not separated from the Father nor separated from the Son. For how could He be separated from the Father Who is the Spirit of His Mouth? [Lit - the Breath of His Word] Which is certainly both a proof of His eternity, and expresses the Unity of this Godhead."

In many ancient languages, the word for Spirit and Breath are the same, as I'm sure you know. And this analogy which is used in all Scripture and Tradition is another proof that the spiration of the Spirit must of necessity take place through the Son. Hence, St. Augustine commenting on that well known action of Christ of breathing the Spirit on His Apostles, declares, "The Father begot a Son and, by begetting Him, gave it to Him that the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him as well. If He did not proceed from Him, He would not say to His disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit" [Jn 20:22], and give the Spirit by breathing on them. He signified that the Holy Spirit also proceeds from Him and showed outwardly by blowing what He was giving inwardly by breathing ... He is, therefore, the Spirit of both, by proceeding from both." So again, the Latin Fathers, at least, manifestly use "is of", "is from", "proceeds from" etc interchangeably.

Also, no offense to you, Mor Ephrem, or to anyone else, but it was Patriarch Photius who first made the matter controversial, and he professed to accept the authority of a long list of Popes and Fathers after Pope Leo I. Thus, we are justified in citing the testimony of the Athanasian Creed, "The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; not created, not begotten, but proceeding" dogmatically used in the West from at least the early fifth,(if not perhaps the late fourth, as some scholars argue) as the study mentions, and of the profession of Faith in 519 A.D. made by St. Hormisdas cited earlier, along with that of St. Leo III, whom Patriarch Photius would appeal to, because he engraved the Creed in Greek and Latin on shields without the Filioque. Nonetheless, the same Pope clearly professed that the true Trinitarian Faith was, "The Father, complete God in Himself, the Son, complete God begotten of the Father, the Holy Spirit, complete God proceeding from the Father and the Son" on which latter point Patriarch Photius, and much of the East after him, unhappily fell into error. As the study puts it,

"In the West, the Filioque was confessed from the fifth century through the Quicumque (or "Athanasianum", DS 75) Symbol, and then by the Councils of Toledo in Visigothic Spain between 589 and 693 (DS 470, 485, 490, 527, 568), to affirm Trinitarian consubstantiality ... In the ninth century, however, faced with Charlemagne, Pope Leo III, in his anxiety to preserve unity with the Orient in the confession of faith, resisted this development of the Symbol which had spread spontaneously in the West, while safeguarding the truth contained in the Filioque. "

Finally, it's not really my intention to convince you of anything, I already said I'm happy to agree to disagree if you want to. I only maintain, however, that it is manifest that the Roman Church, while professing the same ancient unchanging orthodox Christian Faith She dogmatically professed over 1500 years ago, has always done everything possible that unity may be preserved in Christendom.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 03:07:48 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Napoletani

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #691 on: July 26, 2015, 07:15:38 AM »
This Filioque topic, wether pro or contra, just looks like humans trying to dissect God.

Now to add, i came across Faustus of Riez writings on the Holy Spirit in french translation. You can read it here, http://www.patristique.org/Fauste-de-Riez-Sur-l-Esprit-Saint.html  Faustus of Riez was a strong opponent of Augustine if i remember Here is the quote:

Ainsi donc l’Esprit Saint procède du Père et du Fils, selon ces paroles : Qui n’a pas l’Esprit du Christ ne lui appartient pas (Ro 8, 9). Et celles-ci : Il souffla sur eux et leur dit : « recevez l’Esprit Saint (Jn 20, 22).

In english:

"So, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, according to those words: if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him(Romans 8:9). And those words: he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:22)

Later on, Faustus writes:

Et si d’autre part l’appellation « Esprit de Dieu » signifie « Esprit du Père », voici que l’Esprit Saint se manifeste à la fois Esprit du Père et Esprit du Fils par Unité de substance. Et c’est donc à bon droit qu’on le discerne comme « procédant de l’Un et de l’Autre et qu’on le reconnaît comme une Personne distincte dans les liens de la Trinité.

And if the appelation "Spirit of God" means "Spirit of the Father", the Holy Spirit manifests itself both as the Spirit of the Father, and Spirit of the Son, by unity of substance. And this is then rightfully that we see him as "proceeding from the One like the Other and we recognize him as one distinct persona within the Trinity links".

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #692 on: July 26, 2015, 05:32:50 PM »
Cyrillic, Cavaradossi can answer for himself, I'm sure. But for what it's worth, he earlier said St. Cyril "seems to affirm it [substantial or hypostatic procession] but only weakly". [St. Cyril is cited in the study as follows, "The Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son; clearly, he is of the divine substance, proceeding (proion) substantially (ousiwdwV) in it and from it" (St Cyril of Alexandria, Thesaurus, PG 75, 585 A)") Do you agree with that, then?

That is not what I said. I said that St. Cyril seems to affirm weakly the blessed Theodoret's proposition that the Spirit does not proceed (εκπορευεται) from the Son. In the passage in question, he essentially retreats by defending his phrasing as being related to the Spirit's belonging to the Son, rather than claiming against Theodoret that the Spirit proceeds from the Son.

St. Maximus is your chief proof of this, you claim a clear and unambiguous statement by the same Saintly monk that "By nature (ϕυσει) the Holy Spirit in His being (κατ’ ουσιαν) takes substantially (ουσιοδως) His origin (εκπορευομενον) from the Father through the Son Who is begotten (δι’ Υιου γεννηθεντος)." needs to be interpreted through the lens of another statement where he talks about manifestation. The truth is, like us and the Latin Fathers, the Saint doesn't see energetic manifestation and eternal substantial or hypostatic procession as being contradictory at all. If you disagree, we are at an impasse and will leave it there.

Consulting the passage in question, I don't think that translation is accurate. St. Maximus wrote "το γαρ Πνεύμα ώσπερ φύσει κατ' ουσίαν υπάρχει του θεού και Πατρός ούτως και του Υιού φύσει κατ' ουσίαν εστίν, ως εκ του Πατρός ουσιωδώς, δι' Υιού γεννηθέντος, αφράστως εκπορευόμενον." I would render that as, "for just as the the Holy Spirit is (exists) the God and Father's [belongs to the God and Father] by nature according to substance, in the same way, the Holy Spirit is the Son's [belongs to the Son] by nature according to substance, as if unspeakably proceeding from the Father substantially, through the begotten Son." I will leave the reader to judge which is more a more accurate rendering, but the translation you gave seems incredibly sloppy to me. What St. Maximus addresses is the concept of the Spirit belonging to both by nature, not the Spirit having existence from both.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 05:48:17 PM by Cavaradossi »
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #693 on: July 28, 2015, 12:20:02 AM »
Xavier , we here in the East are JUST FINE with out the Filioque.....   You like it , great, keep it....  All these reams of dialogue are good theological practice but it wont solve the question.
you have it, and we don't...... that's the way its going to remain.....  ( ok back to the dialogue ) I like to keep things simple....
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 12:21:50 AM by JoeS2 »

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #694 on: July 29, 2015, 05:20:56 PM »
Cyrillic, Cavaradossi can answer for himself, I'm sure. But for what it's worth, he earlier said St. Cyril "seems to affirm it [substantial or hypostatic procession] but only weakly". [St. Cyril is cited in the study as follows, "The Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son; clearly, he is of the divine substance, proceeding (proion) substantially (ousiwdwV) in it and from it" (St Cyril of Alexandria, Thesaurus, PG 75, 585 A)") Do you agree with that, then?

Revisiting this quotation in its fuller context, it is clear that St. Cyril uses the verb πρόειμι in the sense of an economic giving of the Holy Spirit (as a general rule, St. Cyril uses verbs like ἐκχέω and πρόειμι in economic contexts, whereas he uses the verb ἐκπορεύομαι in the sense of the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, which is from the Father and through the Son). St. Cyril wrote, "Accordingly, when the Holy Spirit renders us of the same form as God, He then progresses (πρόεισι) from the Father and the Son, since clearly He is of the divine substance, substantially in it, and progressing from it. Indeed, [it is] just as, for example, the breath which runs out from the human mouth, even though this example is small and unworthy of discussion; for God transcends all things."(«Ὅτε τοίνυν τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἐν ἡμῖν γενόμενον, συμμόρφους ἀποδεικνύει Θεοῦ, πρόεισι δὲ καὶ ἐκ Πατρὸς καὶ Υἱοῦ πρόδηλον ὅτι τῆς θείας ἐστὶν οὐσίας, οὐσιωδῶς ἐν αὐτῇ καὶ ἐξ αὐτῆς προϊόν. Ὥσπερ οὖν ἀμέλει καὶ τὸ ἐξ ἀνθρωπείου στόματος ἐκτρέχον ἐμφύσημα, εἰ καὶ μικρὸν καὶ οὐκ ἄξιον τοῦ λόγου τὸ ὑπόδειγμα· πάντα γαρ ὑπερέχει Θεός.»)
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #695 on: July 30, 2015, 11:16:22 AM »
Cyrillic, Cavaradossi can answer for himself, I'm sure. But for what it's worth, he earlier said St. Cyril "seems to affirm it [substantial or hypostatic procession] but only weakly". [St. Cyril is cited in the study as follows, "The Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son; clearly, he is of the divine substance, proceeding (proion) substantially (ousiwdwV) in it and from it" (St Cyril of Alexandria, Thesaurus, PG 75, 585 A)") Do you agree with that, then?

Revisiting this quotation in its fuller context, it is clear that St. Cyril uses the verb πρόειμι in the sense of an economic giving of the Holy Spirit (as a general rule, St. Cyril uses verbs like ἐκχέω and πρόειμι in economic contexts, whereas he uses the verb ἐκπορεύομαι in the sense of the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, which is from the Father and through the Son). St. Cyril wrote, "Accordingly, when the Holy Spirit renders us of the same form as God, He then progresses (πρόεισι) from the Father and the Son, since clearly He is of the divine substance, substantially in it, and progressing from it. Indeed, [it is] just as, for example, the breath which runs out from the human mouth, even though this example is small and unworthy of discussion; for God transcends all things."(«Ὅτε τοίνυν τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἐν ἡμῖν γενόμενον, συμμόρφους ἀποδεικνύει Θεοῦ, πρόεισι δὲ καὶ ἐκ Πατρὸς καὶ Υἱοῦ πρόδηλον ὅτι τῆς θείας ἐστὶν οὐσίας, οὐσιωδῶς ἐν αὐτῇ καὶ ἐξ αὐτῆς προϊόν. Ὥσπερ οὖν ἀμέλει καὶ τὸ ἐξ ἀνθρωπείου στόματος ἐκτρέχον ἐμφύσημα, εἰ καὶ μικρὸν καὶ οὐκ ἄξιον τοῦ λόγου τὸ ὑπόδειγμα· πάντα γαρ ὑπερέχει Θεός.»)

Suffice it to say, this issue will not be resolved by the great minds we have here.....

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #696 on: July 30, 2015, 11:25:09 AM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #697 on: July 30, 2015, 11:55:35 AM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D

I have to admit, you do have a good sense of humour..... 8)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #698 on: July 30, 2015, 11:58:09 AM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
Almost though persuadest me to be a filioqueist!  ;D
God bless!

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #699 on: July 30, 2015, 01:12:06 PM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
Almost though persuadest me to be a filioqueist!  ;D
I have that effect on people. Usually, after people hang out with me, they profess: "The holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration."

It's what I do.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 01:24:36 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #700 on: July 30, 2015, 02:28:31 PM »
The Catholic Church is not "western", She counts 1.2 billion members who, all considered, remain united fairly well across vast geographical boundaries, not to mention cultural and linguistic differences, under the episcopal college united to the See of Peter.

Most of whom pray, worship, and live the Roman rite.  IOW, they are Western. 

Hi Mor. If I concede that more than 98% of Catholics are Western, will you concede that less than 0.01% of Orthodox are Western?
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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #701 on: July 30, 2015, 02:44:49 PM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
Almost though persuadest me to be a filioqueist!  ;D
I have that effect on people. Usually, after people hang out with me, they profess: "The holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration."

It's what I do.
I tried. My tongue choked me and I ended up vomiting up my pork roll sandwich that I had for lunch. Thanks alot.  >:(
God bless!

Offline Papist

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #702 on: July 30, 2015, 02:55:07 PM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
Almost though persuadest me to be a filioqueist!  ;D
I have that effect on people. Usually, after people hang out with me, they profess: "The holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration."

It's what I do.
I tried. My tongue choked me and I ended up vomiting up my pork roll sandwich that I had for lunch. Thanks alot.  >:(

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #703 on: July 30, 2015, 02:55:59 PM »
The Catholic Church is not "western", She counts 1.2 billion members who, all considered, remain united fairly well across vast geographical boundaries, not to mention cultural and linguistic differences, under the episcopal college united to the See of Peter.

Most of whom pray, worship, and live the Roman rite.  IOW, they are Western. 

Hi Mor. If I concede that more than 98% of Catholics are Western, will you concede that less than 0.01% of Orthodox are Western?

I'm not sure about assigning percentages, but if your point is that the Catholic Church is largely Western and the Orthodox Church is largely Eastern, I'm OK with that. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #704 on: July 30, 2015, 03:54:17 PM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
Almost though persuadest me to be a filioqueist!  ;D
I have that effect on people. Usually, after people hang out with me, they profess: "The holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration."

It's what I do.

How many beers does that take?   ;) ;)

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #705 on: July 30, 2015, 03:57:24 PM »
So we've all agreed to keep the Filioque, yes?  ;D
Almost though persuadest me to be a filioqueist!  ;D
I have that effect on people. Usually, after people hang out with me, they profess: "The holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration."

It's what I do.

How many beers does that take?   ;) ;)
Now that is entirely beside the point. Union is union my, friend. ;)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 04:01:41 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #706 on: August 05, 2015, 07:05:28 PM »
Now that is entirely beside the point. Union is union my, friend. ;)
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Offline Papist

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Re: Keep the Filioque
« Reply #707 on: August 05, 2015, 08:47:33 PM »
Now that is entirely beside the point. Union is union my, friend. ;)
Frank the Hippie Pope and Bart the Patriarch Sing Love Songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoU2o1iRN0U

Not gonna lie; I couldn't help but think about that video when wrote the above.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.