Author Topic: Problematic objections to ECism ...  (Read 810 times)

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Offline KostaC

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2015, 06:18:24 PM »
As silly as it is it's still less silly than what is actually happening.

Why? I refute the claims made in this thread & said they're not welcome here. Perhaps you could channel your distaste into the discussion instead of brushing it all of as silly? That's at least what I would do.
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2015, 06:23:32 PM »
I wasn't even talking about you specifically. Xavier and Wandile are even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants. There's no reason for you to descend to their level and exchange uninteresting verbal blows that convince no one.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 06:25:12 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline KostaC

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2015, 06:25:34 PM »
I wasn't even talking about you specifically. Xavief and Wandile are even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants. There's no reason for you to stoop to their level.

You know, that's a good point. Thank you.

I'll back out now. Lord, have mercy.
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

"Bendito seja o que vem em nome do Senhor, o Senhor é Deus e se manifestou a nós."

Offline Wandile

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2015, 07:14:55 PM »
I wasn't even talking about you specifically. Xavier and Wandile are even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants. There's no reason for you to descend to their level and exchange uninteresting verbal blows that convince no one.

Ironically triumphalistic language with a touch of a superiority complex
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2015, 07:18:23 PM »
Why is it so hard for some here to say the name of our faith?

Vaticanism, Popery, Paplism, Latinism etc but hardly ever Catholicism or even Roman Catholicism. You would swear some here hate us.

Then there is the issue of calling us by our actual name . "The Vatican" is one that is loved here.

Just a weird thing I have noticed here
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 07:19:38 PM by Wandile »
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2015, 07:32:47 PM »
'Preaching popery to [...] plants' alliterated.


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We are the stuffed men
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Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2015, 08:25:36 PM »
...even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants.

Do you have a sister and/or female cousin who likes curry?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2015, 10:33:06 PM »
Quote
Btw, what about Catholic polemicists who, at the drop of a hat, pontificate that "The Orthodox agree with us!" ? Because I've seen a ton of that on the aforementioned "answer-oriented Catholic forum". (Although the more sophisticated ones might put it more like "The Orthodox really agree with us, even if they don't acknowledge it.")
Remember I addressed overly ecumenically minded Catholics who make strange statements that scandalize the faith?

Relax, I'm not your enemy :)

Actually the argument is made just as often by sincere RCs and apologists who wish to score some points against the Protestants. This isn't just an internet phenomenon, it has been going on for centuries at least.

But who denied this though?

You strongly implied that every RC who uses this argument is 'overly ecumenically minded'.

To be fair, I can see how those RCs might be called "ecumenical". In their own minds they are undoubtedly the good ecumenists, not like the bad ecumenists who produced joint statements like "Uniatism, method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion".
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2015, 10:46:06 PM »
 
Nah not really. I only know of a group Called the "Catholic Church" known to the western world colloquially but not officially as the Roman Catholic Church. I know of a few dissenting groups, the biggest group known as the Eastern Orthodox Church. Ever heard of them?

I have heard of the One Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church, yes.

In my experiences on this forum, Orthodox posters seem pretty consistent in using "Catholic" to mean ICWR (in communion with Rome).

Granted I haven't spent a lot of time here in the last year, so it's possible that things have changed without my knowledge.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2015, 10:56:57 PM »
Why is it so hard for some here to say the name of our faith?

Vaticanism, Popery, Paplism, Latinism etc but hardly ever Catholicism or even Roman Catholicism. You would swear some here hate us.

Then there is the issue of calling us by our actual name . "The Vatican" is one that is loved here.

Just a weird thing I have noticed here

When your apologists are willing to admit that we self-identify as Catholics instead of playing your fruitless word games based on one quotation from St. Augustine, maybe we could return the courtesy by referring to your religious group by the name with which it chooses to self-identify.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2015, 12:59:29 AM »
...even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants.

Do you have a sister and/or female cousin who likes curry?

Not finding any suitable matches on eHarmony, Mor?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2015, 01:08:16 AM »
...even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants.

Do you have a sister and/or female cousin who likes curry?

Not finding any suitable matches on eHarmony, Mor?

I haven't tried that.  I figure it's worth exhausting my options here before moving on to the really heterodox. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Xavier

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2015, 03:18:06 AM »
Well, all right. One wonders how it is not triumphalism on the Orthodox side (or is that only a sin if Catholics do it?) to call Greek Catholics "incoherent", "dishonest", "schizophrenic" and what-not in their position, for being in communion with Rome. I would probably not have commented at all if Greek Catholics weren't being bashed. Although Greek Catholics are none of those things, it's obvious the Orthodox do see a contradiction in trying to minimalize doctrinal differences between Catholic and Orthodox to the point of non-existence and to that extent they are right.

But anyway, enough of that, pardon me for derailing your thread, Peter, will bow out now and say no more.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2015, 04:45:27 AM »
Why is it so hard for some here to say the name of our faith?

Vaticanism, Popery, Paplism, Latinism etc but hardly ever Catholicism or even Roman Catholicism. You would swear some here hate us.

Then there is the issue of calling us by our actual name . "The Vatican" is one that is loved here.

Just a weird thing I have noticed here

When your apologists are willing to admit that we self-identify as Catholics instead of playing your fruitless word games based on one quotation from St. Augustine, maybe we could return the courtesy by referring to your religious group by the name with which it chooses to self-identify.

So non-recognition from apologists is the reason to deny others their dignity?  People with no authority in the church and are most of the time laymen. What's that saying, "do unto others..." ?

You don't see us denying you the title Eastern Orthodox even though we believe you to hold some errors and this is despite the fact that you also don't recognize our self-recognition of being orthodox but rather brand us heretics
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 04:48:43 AM by Wandile »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2015, 07:16:49 AM »
...even more irrelevant with their Latin triumphalism and baroque rhetoric about preaching popery to birds and plants.

Do you have a sister and/or female cousin who likes curry?

Not that I know of.
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2015, 07:46:24 AM »
Well, all right. One wonders how it is not triumphalism on the Orthodox side (or is that only a sin if Catholics do it?) to call Greek Catholics "incoherent", "dishonest", "schizophrenic" and what-not in their position, for being in communion with Rome

Instead of being indignant you could adress the arguments why we (or, more specifically, I) call them incoherent and schizophrenic.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 07:46:42 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2015, 10:31:50 AM »
Well, all right. One wonders how it is not triumphalism on the Orthodox side (or is that only a sin if Catholics do it?) to call Greek Catholics "incoherent", "dishonest", "schizophrenic" and what-not in their position, for being in communion with Rome

Instead of being indignant you could adress the arguments why we (or, more specifically, I) call them incoherent and schizophrenic.

"The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, supreme head of the Church, and the only person who can speak authoritatively and finally on dogma."

"We don't agree with his rulership, and we disagree with his theological decisions of late."

"Well, OK, we'll make a deal: just submit to his authority, and you can keep your theology."

"But, isn't theology supposed to be a description of reality?  How can you say something is dogmatic and everyone must believe it, but then grant exemptions for people to ignore your dogmas?"

"Well, hey, we all love Jesus and we love you guys.  Isn't that enough?"

"Uh, so are you will to say that the beliefs you Roman Catholics have that we object to are not important?"

"Well, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 'The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these. There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith. The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ. In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith.  And, therefore, 'In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a 'supernatural sense of faith' the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, 'unfailingly adheres to this faith.' The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:   The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith—he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium, above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed, and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions must be adhered to with the obedience of faith. Its infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.  Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.'  See?"

"No, it sounds like you are saying dogmas are important, but then you are undermining them by allowing parts of your Church to ignore them."

"Golly, you Orthodox need to lighten up a bit.  We're just trying to be nice!"

"By confusing us with conflicting stances on dogmas?!"

"We can't help it if you are too stupid to understand.  It's just one more reason you need to repent and submit to the Pope of Roman as head of the Universal Church.  Besides, your pope just totally caved on environmentalism following our lead, so just stop it and come in under his authority!"

"Patriarch Bartholomew isn't our pope!  And Bartholomew has been talking that way even before Francis was elected!"

"Sure, OK.  So, when would you like to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation?  You will get a cool office at the Vatican, and you will be able to keep all of your stuff.  Oh, and we promise to fix your problems in the Czech Lands, Ukraine, and the United States"

"ARGH!"

"How about an account at the Vatican Bank?  We are offering 1.237% on savings accounts, and we are running a special on.... OUCH! OUCH! OUCH!  Stop hitting me, Orthodoxy!"

"Die heretic!"

"Hey, that's not nice!  STOP IT!  OUCH!"

 :laugh:


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Offline converted viking

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2015, 11:12:08 AM »
My objections to Eastern Catholicism are the same as my objections to Western Catholicism... filioque, papal supremacy, etc. Even though many Eastern Catholics don't explicitly affirm these dogmas, or sometimes even deny them, they accept them by their communion with Rome.
There are Eastern Catholics who don't believe in Papal Supremacy?  :o

There's a small but very vocal (on the internet) group of so-called "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." A couple of them post here from time to time. I don't know if Peter J is one. Yes, their position is incoherent and dishonest.

Archimandrite John of the Antiochians described this position as "schizophrenic" (not incoherent and dishonest). Schizophrenic in that "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" is a misnomer. Either one is in communion with Orthodoxy or one is in communion with Rome. One cannot be both.

Exactly.  This is why I left EC.   It was taking me to the point I didn't want to have anything to do with religion at all.

Viking
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 11:12:36 AM by converted viking »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2015, 11:15:07 AM »
Well, all right. One wonders how it is not triumphalism on the Orthodox side (or is that only a sin if Catholics do it?) to call Greek Catholics "incoherent", "dishonest", "schizophrenic" and what-not in their position, for being in communion with Rome

Instead of being indignant you could adress the arguments why we (or, more specifically, I) call them incoherent and schizophrenic.

"The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, supreme head of the Church, and the only person who can speak authoritatively and finally on dogma."

"We don't agree with his rulership, and we disagree with his theological decisions of late."

"Well, OK, we'll make a deal: just submit to his authority, and you can keep your theology."

"But, isn't theology supposed to be a description of reality?  How can you say something is dogmatic and everyone must believe it, but then grant exemptions for people to ignore your dogmas?"

"Well, hey, we all love Jesus and we love you guys.  Isn't that enough?"

"Uh, so are you will to say that the beliefs you Roman Catholics have that we object to are not important?"

"Well, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 'The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these. There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith. The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ. In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith.  And, therefore, 'In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a 'supernatural sense of faith' the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, 'unfailingly adheres to this faith.' The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:   The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith—he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium, above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed, and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions must be adhered to with the obedience of faith. Its infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.  Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.'  See?"

"No, it sounds like you are saying dogmas are important, but then you are undermining them by allowing parts of your Church to ignore them."

"Golly, you Orthodox need to lighten up a bit.  We're just trying to be nice!"

"By confusing us with conflicting stances on dogmas?!"

"We can't help it if you are too stupid to understand.  It's just one more reason you need to repent and submit to the Pope of Roman as head of the Universal Church.  Besides, your pope just totally caved on environmentalism following our lead, so just stop it and come in under his authority!"

"Patriarch Bartholomew isn't our pope!  And Bartholomew has been talking that way even before Francis was elected!"

"Sure, OK.  So, when would you like to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation?  You will get a cool office at the Vatican, and you will be able to keep all of your stuff.  Oh, and we promise to fix your problems in the Czech Lands, Ukraine, and the United States"

"ARGH!"

"How about an account at the Vatican Bank?  We are offering 1.237% on savings accounts, and we are running a special on.... OUCH! OUCH! OUCH!  Stop hitting me, Orthodoxy!"

"Die heretic!"

"Hey, that's not nice!  STOP IT!  OUCH!"

 :laugh:




Brilliant! Sounds a bit like what the guy from Lutheran Satire does.
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2015, 11:20:05 AM »
Well, all right. One wonders how it is not triumphalism on the Orthodox side (or is that only a sin if Catholics do it?) to call Greek Catholics "incoherent", "dishonest", "schizophrenic" and what-not in their position, for being in communion with Rome

Instead of being indignant you could adress the arguments why we (or, more specifically, I) call them incoherent and schizophrenic.

"The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, supreme head of the Church, and the only person who can speak authoritatively and finally on dogma."

"We don't agree with his rulership, and we disagree with his theological decisions of late."

"Well, OK, we'll make a deal: just submit to his authority, and you can keep your theology."

"But, isn't theology supposed to be a description of reality?  How can you say something is dogmatic and everyone must believe it, but then grant exemptions for people to ignore your dogmas?"

"Well, hey, we all love Jesus and we love you guys.  Isn't that enough?"

"Uh, so are you will to say that the beliefs you Roman Catholics have that we object to are not important?"

"Well, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 'The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these. There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith. The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ. In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith.  And, therefore, 'In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a 'supernatural sense of faith' the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, 'unfailingly adheres to this faith.' The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:   The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith—he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium, above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed, and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions must be adhered to with the obedience of faith. Its infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.  Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.'  See?"

"No, it sounds like you are saying dogmas are important, but then you are undermining them by allowing parts of your Church to ignore them."

"Golly, you Orthodox need to lighten up a bit.  We're just trying to be nice!"

"By confusing us with conflicting stances on dogmas?!"

"We can't help it if you are too stupid to understand.  It's just one more reason you need to repent and submit to the Pope of Roman as head of the Universal Church.  Besides, your pope just totally caved on environmentalism following our lead, so just stop it and come in under his authority!"

"Patriarch Bartholomew isn't our pope!  And Bartholomew has been talking that way even before Francis was elected!"

"Sure, OK.  So, when would you like to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation?  You will get a cool office at the Vatican, and you will be able to keep all of your stuff.  Oh, and we promise to fix your problems in the Czech Lands, Ukraine, and the United States"

"ARGH!"

"How about an account at the Vatican Bank?  We are offering 1.237% on savings accounts, and we are running a special on.... OUCH! OUCH! OUCH!  Stop hitting me, Orthodoxy!"

"Die heretic!"

"Hey, that's not nice!  STOP IT!  OUCH!"

 :laugh:




Brilliant! Sounds a bit like what the guy from Lutheran Satire does.

You mean, 'Frank the Hippy Pope'?  "Quit harshing my ecumencial mellow..."  Hilarious!
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2015, 11:25:24 AM »
Cyrillic, I don't know if you've seen this one.  It is not intentional comedy, but it is pretty fascinating. 
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2015, 11:44:02 AM »
Quote
Btw, what about Catholic polemicists who, at the drop of a hat, pontificate that "The Orthodox agree with us!" ? Because I've seen a ton of that on the aforementioned "answer-oriented Catholic forum". (Although the more sophisticated ones might put it more like "The Orthodox really agree with us, even if they don't acknowledge it.")
Remember I addressed overly ecumenically minded Catholics who make strange statements that scandalize the faith?

Relax, I'm not your enemy :)

Actually the argument is made just as often by sincere RCs and apologists who wish to score some points against the Protestants. This isn't just an internet phenomenon, it has been going on for centuries at least.

But who denied this though?

You strongly implied that every RC who uses this argument is 'overly ecumenically minded'.

I don't want to add a new topic to the thread, but for understanding the dynamics here I think an important point of reference is the distinction between "traditionalist Catholics" and "neoconservative Catholics". Peter W. Miller provided a good explanation (although he calls the latter "'conservative' Catholics" -- note the quotes -- which I think is needlessly derogatory, not to mention being impractical). Here's his definition:

Quote
As the heretics of yesterday have become the liberals of today, the liberals of yesterday now lay claim to the title "conservative". Consequentially the conservatives came to be known as "traditionalists". Unfortunately, these terms are no longer completely accurate descriptions. So for the purposes of this essay, I will use the following general definitions to delineate the differences between traditionalists and "conservatives":

TRADITIONALIST: One who challenges the novel practices and teachings of Catholics (including bishops and priests) which appear to contradict the prior teaching of the Church. A traditionalist questions the prudence of new pastoral approaches and holds the belief that those things generally deemed objectively good or evil several decades ago remain so today.

"CONSERVATIVE": One who upholds and defends the current policies and positions of the Church hierarchy regardless of their novelty. A "conservative" extends the definitions of "infallibility" and "Magisterium" to include most every action and speech of the Pope and those Cardinals around him, but may exclude those Cardinals and bishops outside of Rome. A "conservative's" opinion is also subject to change depending on the current actions of the Holy Father. "Conservative" will be used it in quotation marks to avoid the misleading connotation of being diametrically opposed to liberalism or on the far right of the spectrum. Also since there only exists a desire to "conserve" only those traditions and practices of the past deemed appropriate at any given time by the present Pope. The quotation marks will also ensure a proper dissociation between the actual conservatives active prior to and during Vatican II (Ottaviani, Lefebvre, Fenton, etc.).

Both traditionalists and "conservatives" acknowledge the existence of problems in the Church but disagree as to their nature, extent, causes and remedies.

"Conservatives" see it as an "illness" — an incidental problem like a gangrene limb. In the English-speaking world, this problem may be limited to the actions of certain American bishops. "Conservatives" see the novelties of Vatican II and the New Mass as natural and acceptable developments in the course of the Church, but take issue with those seeking to expand upon those novelties, or take them to their next logical progression. They see the crisis in the Church as a societal issue that would have happened regardless of what actions the Church leadership had taken. Their solution is to return to Vatican II and embark on another attempt to "renew" the Church.

Traditionalists see the illness as a widespread cancer affecting the whole body put most particularly and critically the heart. They question the prudence of making significant changes in the Mass and the Church's pastoral orientation. They attribute the destruction to liberal and Modernist ideals given a certain degree of acceptability once the Church decided to stop fighting them with extreme vigilance. They see the Church leadership as sharing in the responsibility for the crisis due to its governance (or lack thereof). Their solution is not another attempt at a reform that may be "more in line with the 'spirit' of Vatican II" (shudder), but a return to the practices and beliefs of the Church that sustained it for hundreds of years prior.

- A Brief Defense of Traditionalism
Peter W. Miller
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 11:46:58 AM by Peter J »
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2015, 11:49:48 AM »
Well, all right. One wonders how it is not triumphalism on the Orthodox side (or is that only a sin if Catholics do it?) to call Greek Catholics "incoherent", "dishonest", "schizophrenic" and what-not in their position, for being in communion with Rome. I would probably not have commented at all if Greek Catholics weren't being bashed. Although Greek Catholics are none of those things, it's obvious the Orthodox do see a contradiction in trying to minimalize doctrinal differences between Catholic and Orthodox to the point of non-existence and to that extent they are right.

But anyway, enough of that, pardon me for derailing your thread, Peter, will bow out now and say no more.

From my family experience, I would never say that Greek Catholics are any of those things.

But I have no compunctions in telling them in honest discussions, that they are wrong in thinking that under the current reality, let alone the historical ones since the unia were adopted or enforced (depending on your view of history), that the Eastern Catholic 'sui juris' churches really can operate fully as self ruling churches in compliance with the terms that were promised in said unions and remain faithful to the theology and spirit of the Christian East. The 20th century experience of Greek Catholics in the diaspora teaches us as much. You can't be 'Orthodox in union with Rome' if by Orthodox you mean the Orthodoxy that is generally represented here in this Forum.  Rome herself has admitted as much in the much complained of Balamand  documents and ecumenical papers agreed upon thereafter which to my knowledge remain the stated position on these matters with the Church of Rome. From the Vatican's own website: "1. At the request of the Orthodox Churches, the normal progression of the theological dialogue with the Catholic Church has been set aside so that immediate attention might be given to the question which is called "uniatism". 2. With regard to the method which has been called "uniatism", it was stated at Freising (June 1990) that "we reject it as method for the search for unity because it is opposed to the common tradition of our Churches"." http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html

Granted the Pontifical document goes on to discuss the legitimacy of the Eastern Catholic Churches within the framework of the Church of Rome and most of us do not dispute their 'legitimacy' on at least one or more levels. But in saying so, that does not mean any of us acknowledge the legitimacy of the unions or the imposition of Latin ecclesiology and theology upon those bodies over time or the role of the Congregation of the Eastern Churches, i.e. in particular the unique and particular role of the Papacy in the administration of the eparchies of its 'eastern' rites and developments in doctrine post the schism.(Interestingly enough, many of the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome will go to lengths to attempt to create wiggle room between the expression of Roman doctrine and that of the historical Orthodox where they in fact diverge.)

The problem in critiquing one another or using the charge of 'triumphalism' is to start the discussion by saying 'the Orthodox' or 'the Romans' say...some say such things - on both sides - others respectfully are more respectful.




Offline Peter J

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2015, 11:54:38 AM »
P.S.

I don't want to add a new topic to the thread, but for understanding the dynamics here I think an important point of reference is the distinction between "traditionalist Catholics" and "neoconservative Catholics".

E.g. for understanding how it is that Wandile and I can share objections to certain habits of neoconservative Catholics, even though I'm not a traditionalist.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

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Re: Problematic objections to ECism ...
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2015, 12:51:17 PM »
Cyrillic, I don't know if you've seen this one.  It is not intentional comedy, but it is pretty fascinating. 

Quite fascinating.

The ex-Jesuit being interviewed almost sounds Orthodox in certain segments, and he almost sounds like an Eastern Catholic, especially when he mentioned that the Pope should only be a bishop among bishops, and that we should return to the ancient way, yet he still defends the papacy. That is the comedy.
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