Author Topic: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See  (Read 276 times)

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Offline Xavier

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The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« on: Yesterday at 08:14:30 AM »
The Catholic Church has always held the episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See of Rome, that the Apostolic succession and the Petrine succession are inseparable. It means bishops who deliberately secede from the Roman Pontiff immediately lose all authority, and all orthodox bishops must look to the Apostolic See as the source and origin of their episcopal authority and restore that communion if it has at any time been broken. The eminent liturgist Dom Prosper Gueranger proves this extensively from the teaching of the earliest Roman Pontiffs and other orthodox Saints, he writes "St. Leo the Great : "If our Lord willed that there should be something common to Peter and the rest of the princes of His Church, it was only on this condition, that whatsoever He gave to the rest, He gave it to them through Peter." ... This same doctrine is clearly stated in a letter written to Pope St. Symmachus by St. Cesarius of Arles, who lived in the fifth century: "The episcopate flows from the blessed Apostle Peter; and consequently, it belongs to Your Holiness to prescribe to the several Churches the rules which they are to follow." This fundamental principle, which St. Leo the Great has so ably and eloquently developed, this principle, which is taught us by universal Tradition, is laid down with all possible precision in the magnificent letters, still extant, of Pope St. Innocent I., who preceded St. Leo by several years. Thus he writes to the Council of Carthage, that "the episcopate, with all its authority, emanates from the Apostolic See"; to the Council of Milevis, that "bishops must look upon Peter as the source whence both their name and their dignity are derived"; to St. Victricius, bishop of Rouen, that "the Apostolate and the episcopate both owe their origin to Peter."

In the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, Philip the presbyter said, "There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.". For witnesses from Constantinople in particular, to omit those such as St. Maximus and St. Nicephorus, St. Theodore plainly bears witness to this headship, this power of judging and teaching that the Successor of Peter holds by divine right, writing to St. Leo III, "Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. Save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven" and to St. Paschal I, "Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter."

And on the weight of this unimpeachable Tradition, the Church justly holds, as Brunsmann says, "In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic ... Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense. Those regional Churches which are subject to the successor of St. Peter, and live in community with him, participate in this Apostolicity. All others, be it that they have separated from the one only Apostolic Church or developed independently of her, lack the note of Apostolicity and consequently cannot be the true Church of Christ.

Any other method, which separates the episcopate from the Apostolic See contrary to this Tradition, will not be able to identify the one uniquely Apostolic Church, tracing it to as many different lines as there are different sees in the Church; not understanding that these derive their authority from that supreme Head and therefore are bound to remain in communion with him. How do the Greek Orthodox disprove the Apostolic succession of the Catholic Church, and prove their Church alone retains it in its fullness?
"Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. Save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven" (St. Theodore to St. Leo III, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

Offline wgw

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 09:18:28 AM »
Well,,for,starters, there's no evidence that anyone prior to pope Victor actually believed anything like this, and if memory serves Pope Victor was roundly criticized for this error by peers.   You have occasional pro-Papal pronunciations popping up in the centuries that follow, but it's obvious that the kind of Roman dominance sought by some Popes never existed.  In the greatest theological battlegrounds of the first Millenium, it was almost invariably the Pope of Alexandria or the Patriarch of Constantinople who played a decisive role,,and more often than not the Roman pontiff appears in these disputes as a background character, separated from the primcipal actors by language (Latin vs. Greek) and distance and almost invariably represented by legates.  An almost ahadowy, ethereal figure, whose primacy may have been very convincing in the crumbling Western Empire, but who in the East was an obscure figure who only exercised the influence he did owing to the gravitas attached to his diocese.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 10:12:56 AM »
The Catholic Church has always held the episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See of Rome, that the Apostolic succession and the Petrine succession are inseparable. It means bishops who deliberately secede from the Roman Pontiff immediately lose all authority, and all orthodox bishops must look to the Apostolic See as the source and origin of their episcopal authority and restore that communion if it has at any time been broken. The eminent liturgist Dom Prosper Gueranger proves this extensively from the teaching of the earliest Roman Pontiffs and other orthodox Saints, he writes "St. Leo the Great : "If our Lord willed that there should be something common to Peter and the rest of the princes of His Church, it was only on this condition, that whatsoever He gave to the rest, He gave it to them through Peter." ... This same doctrine is clearly stated in a letter written to Pope St. Symmachus by St. Cesarius of Arles, who lived in the fifth century: "The episcopate flows from the blessed Apostle Peter; and consequently, it belongs to Your Holiness to prescribe to the several Churches the rules which they are to follow." This fundamental principle, which St. Leo the Great has so ably and eloquently developed, this principle, which is taught us by universal Tradition, is laid down with all possible precision in the magnificent letters, still extant, of Pope St. Innocent I., who preceded St. Leo by several years. Thus he writes to the Council of Carthage, that "the episcopate, with all its authority, emanates from the Apostolic See"; to the Council of Milevis, that "bishops must look upon Peter as the source whence both their name and their dignity are derived"; to St. Victricius, bishop of Rouen, that "the Apostolate and the episcopate both owe their origin to Peter."

In the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, Philip the presbyter said, "There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.". For witnesses from Constantinople in particular, to omit those such as St. Maximus and St. Nicephorus, St. Theodore plainly bears witness to this headship, this power of judging and teaching that the Successor of Peter holds by divine right, writing to St. Leo III, "Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. Save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven" and to St. Paschal I, "Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter."

And on the weight of this unimpeachable Tradition, the Church justly holds, as Brunsmann says, "In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic ... Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense. Those regional Churches which are subject to the successor of St. Peter, and live in community with him, participate in this Apostolicity. All others, be it that they have separated from the one only Apostolic Church or developed independently of her, lack the note of Apostolicity and consequently cannot be the true Church of Christ.

Any other method, which separates the episcopate from the Apostolic See contrary to this Tradition, will not be able to identify the one uniquely Apostolic Church, tracing it to as many different lines as there are different sees in the Church; not understanding that these derive their authority from that supreme Head and therefore are bound to remain in communion with him. How do the Greek Orthodox disprove the Apostolic succession of the Catholic Church, and prove their Church alone retains it in its fullness?

If the episcopacy flows alone from the Bishop of Rome (rather than from Peter as a typological source), how does that not make the Bishop of Rome a universal bishop, and all other bishops merely his vicars? What happens to the episcopacy when the Bishop of Rome dies? Does it cease? How in that case can a new bishop of Rome be consecrated? Usually those who possess a power only vicariously cannot, after all, legitimately exercise their authority when the one who has delegated this authority dies.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 10:42:04 AM »
The Catholic Church has always held the episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See of Rome, that the Apostolic succession and the Petrine succession are inseparable. It means bishops who deliberately secede from the Roman Pontiff immediately lose all authority, and all orthodox bishops must look to the Apostolic See as the source and origin of their episcopal authority and restore that communion if it has at any time been broken. The eminent liturgist Dom Prosper Gueranger proves this extensively from the teaching of the earliest Roman Pontiffs and other orthodox Saints, he writes "St. Leo the Great : "If our Lord willed that there should be something common to Peter and the rest of the princes of His Church, it was only on this condition, that whatsoever He gave to the rest, He gave it to them through Peter." ... This same doctrine is clearly stated in a letter written to Pope St. Symmachus by St. Cesarius of Arles, who lived in the fifth century: "The episcopate flows from the blessed Apostle Peter; and consequently, it belongs to Your Holiness to prescribe to the several Churches the rules which they are to follow." This fundamental principle, which St. Leo the Great has so ably and eloquently developed, this principle, which is taught us by universal Tradition, is laid down with all possible precision in the magnificent letters, still extant, of Pope St. Innocent I., who preceded St. Leo by several years. Thus he writes to the Council of Carthage, that "the episcopate, with all its authority, emanates from the Apostolic See"; to the Council of Milevis, that "bishops must look upon Peter as the source whence both their name and their dignity are derived"; to St. Victricius, bishop of Rouen, that "the Apostolate and the episcopate both owe their origin to Peter."

In the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, Philip the presbyter said, "There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.". For witnesses from Constantinople in particular, to omit those such as St. Maximus and St. Nicephorus, St. Theodore plainly bears witness to this headship, this power of judging and teaching that the Successor of Peter holds by divine right, writing to St. Leo III, "Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. Save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven" and to St. Paschal I, "Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter."

And on the weight of this unimpeachable Tradition, the Church justly holds, as Brunsmann says, "In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic ... Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense. Those regional Churches which are subject to the successor of St. Peter, and live in community with him, participate in this Apostolicity. All others, be it that they have separated from the one only Apostolic Church or developed independently of her, lack the note of Apostolicity and consequently cannot be the true Church of Christ.

Any other method, which separates the episcopate from the Apostolic See contrary to this Tradition, will not be able to identify the one uniquely Apostolic Church, tracing it to as many different lines as there are different sees in the Church; not understanding that these derive their authority from that supreme Head and therefore are bound to remain in communion with him. How do the Greek Orthodox disprove the Apostolic succession of the Catholic Church, and prove their Church alone retains it in its fullness?

If the episcopacy flows alone from the Bishop of Rome (rather than from Peter as a typological source), how does that not make the Bishop of Rome a universal bishop, and all other bishops merely his vicars? What happens to the episcopacy when the Bishop of Rome dies? Does it cease? How in that case can a new bishop of Rome be consecrated? Usually those who possess a power only vicariously cannot, after all, legitimately exercise their authority when the one who has delegated this authority dies.
you referring to Pastor Aeternus' disclaimer (legalese for denying what it is saying)
Quote
But so far is this power of the Supreme Pontiff from being any prejudice to the ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which Bishops, who have been set by the Holy Spirit to succeed and hold the place of the Apostles, [From chapter 4 of the 23rd Session of the Council of Trent, "On The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy."] feed and govern, each his own flock, as true Pastors, that this their episcopal authority is really asserted, strengthened, and protected by the supreme and universal Pastor, in accordance with the words of St. Gregory the Great: "my honor is the honor of the whole Church. My honor is the firm strength of my brethren. I am truly honored, when the honor due to each and all is not withheld." [From the letters of St. Gregory the Great, book viii 30, vol. 2, p. 919, Benedictine edition, Paris, 1705. ]

The outcome of the Meletian schism is enough to dispense with the nonsense Xavier is trying pass off as the Gospel Truth with all the brightness of an angel of light. But somewhere here I dealt with the nonsense spawned by misquoting the legate Philip at Ephesus by wrenching his words from the context of the Council.

And of course
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 12:34:21 PM »
Christus resurrexit!

Btw, to the title of the OP: Old Rome isn't the only Apostolic See even in the West (Malta undisputedly has that honor, and others claim it, e.g. Spain and St. James).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 12:40:56 PM »
This has been answered again and again a million times. Please, just stop. The Peter Syndrome is not evidence of Papal claims.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:42:39 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 12:44:06 PM »
Well,,for,starters, there's no evidence that anyone prior to pope Victor actually believed anything like this, and if memory serves Pope Victor was roundly criticized for this error by peers.   You have occasional pro-Papal pronunciations popping up in the centuries that follow, but it's obvious that the kind of Roman dominance sought by some Popes never existed.  In the greatest theological battlegrounds of the first Millenium, it was almost invariably the Pope of Alexandria or the Patriarch of Constantinople who played a decisive role,,and more often than not the Roman pontiff appears in these disputes as a background character, separated from the primcipal actors by language (Latin vs. Greek) and distance and almost invariably represented by legates.  An almost ahadowy, ethereal figure, whose primacy may have been very convincing in the crumbling Western Empire, but who in the East was an obscure figure who only exercised the influence he did owing to the gravitas attached to his diocese.

The Acacian Schism wouldn't have happened if the rest of the Church took Roman claims seriously.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 01:51:39 PM »
The references to bishops we read in the Apostles are all in St. Paul and are quite matter-of-fact. An official (episkopos) is to be appointed by the missionary (specifically Sts. Timothy or TItus) in every city that the Church is growing to comprise. He must be blameless, the husband of one wife, able to manage his own household, and manifest various other traits. There seems to be very little magic about it, much less of a kind that would seem to be intended to bind all Christendom to St. Peter (in or out of Rome).
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 02:18:29 PM »
The Catholic Church has always held the episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See of Rome, that the Apostolic succession and the Petrine succession are inseparable. It means bishops who deliberately secede from the Roman Pontiff immediately lose all authority, and all orthodox bishops must look to the Apostolic See as the source and origin of their episcopal authority and restore that communion if it has at any time been broken.

...

How do the Greek Orthodox disprove the Apostolic succession of the Catholic Church, and prove their Church alone retains it in its fullness?

Which Catholic Church?  The Catholic Church that "has always held" what you write above, implying the loss of apostolic succession on the part of those who are separated?  Or the Catholic Church which declares that those who are separated nevertheless maintain the apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist and are therefore also the Church, despite that separation, as below? 

Quote
The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 02:43:56 PM »
Do Roman Catholics who come here ever start topics on anything other than the Papacy? If this heresy weren't dangerous enough for other reasons, its nature as obsession and cult of personality would seem to be a danger to the health of a church.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 03:59:40 PM »
Christ gave the power to the 12 Apostles. The 12 gave their power to their successors, and no upper limit is placed on the number of new bishops that may be consecrated. I don't see what's so hard about this, or why we need to trace everything to St Peter and to Rome.

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 04:28:24 PM »
The references to bishops we read in the Apostles are all in St. Paul and are quite matter-of-fact. An official (episkopos) is to be appointed by the missionary (specifically Sts. Timothy or TItus) in every city that the Church is growing to comprise. He must be blameless, the husband of one wife, able to manage his own household, and manifest various other traits. There seems to be very little magic about it, much less of a kind that would seem to be intended to bind all Christendom to St. Peter (in or out of Rome).

Yes, how can it come from the Apostolic See when the Bishops were first (so to speak)? And why Rome, when IIRC St. Peter was the first Bishop of Antioch, and that was before he went to Rome?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 04:28:54 PM »
Do Roman Catholics who come here ever start topics on anything other than the Papacy? If this heresy weren't dangerous enough for other reasons, its nature as obsession and cult of personality would seem to be a danger to the health of a church.

Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 04:40:06 PM »
Christ gave the power to the 12 Apostles. The 12 gave their power to their successors, and no upper limit is placed on the number of new bishops that may be consecrated. I don't see what's so hard about this, or why we need to trace everything to St Peter and to Rome.

And not just the Twelve, if we consider St. Paul's report of himself and Christ and what it meant. He takes quite a bit of time explaining that his apostleship did not devolve from the Twelve, nor did he even receive teaching from them (but from the Spirit in Arabia) ...
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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 05:23:48 PM »
Uh no, the episcopacy derives from Christ through the Holy Spirit.


"Episcopal ordination - fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders

1555 "Amongst those various offices which have been exercised in the Church from the earliest times the chief place, according to the witness of tradition, is held by the function of those who, through their appointment to the dignity and responsibility of bishop, and in virtue consequently of the unbroken succession going back to the beginning, are regarded as transmitters of the apostolic line."34

1556 To fulfil their exalted mission, "the apostles were endowed by Christ with a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit coming upon them, and by the imposition of hands they passed on to their auxiliaries the gift of the Spirit, which is transmitted down to our day through episcopal consecration."35

1557 The Second Vatican Council "teaches . . . that the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders is conferred by episcopal consecration, that fullness namely which, both in the liturgical tradition of the Church and the language of the Fathers of the Church, is called the high priesthood, the acme (summa) of the sacred ministry."36

1558 "Episcopal consecration confers, together with the office of sanctifying, also the offices of teaching and ruling.... In fact ... by the imposition of hands and through the words of the consecration, the grace of the Holy Spirit is given, and a sacred character is impressed in such wise that bishops, in an eminent and visible manner, take the place of Christ himself, teacher, shepherd, and priest, and act as his representative (in Eius persona agant)."37 "By virtue, therefore, of the Holy Spirit who has been given to them, bishops have been constituted true and authentic teachers of the faith and have been made pontiffs and pastors."38

1559 "One is constituted a member of the episcopal body in virtue of the sacramental consecration and by the hierarchical communion with the head and members of the college."39 The character and collegial nature of the episcopal order are evidenced among other ways by the Church's ancient practice which calls for several bishops to participate in the consecration of a new bishop.40 In our day, the lawful ordination of a bishop requires a special intervention of the Bishop of Rome, because he is the supreme visible bond of the communion of the particular Churches in the one Church and the guarantor of their freedom.

1560 As Christ's vicar, each bishop has the pastoral care of the particular Church entrusted to him, but at the same time he bears collegially with all his brothers in the episcopacy the solicitude for all the Churches: "Though each bishop is the lawful pastor only of the portion of the flock entrusted to his care, as a legitimate successor of the apostles he is, by divine institution and precept, responsible with the other bishops for the apostolic mission of the Church."41

1561 The above considerations explain why the Eucharist celebrated by the bishop has a quite special significance as an expression of the Church gathered around the altar, with the one who represents Christ, the Good Shepherd and Head of his Church, presiding.42"
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4U.HTM
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 05:40:10 PM »
How is that different from what we said? We've made it very clear the episcopacy can be traced back to Christ through the Spirit. The question we're asking is: what does the Pope have to do with it?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 05:48:42 PM »
Christ is risen!
How is that different from what we said? We've made it very clear the episcopacy can be traced back to Christ through the Spirit. The question we're asking is: what does the Pope have to do with it?
I believe Deacon Lance is closer to us than Xavier on this point.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 05:52:49 PM »
Christ is risen!
Do Roman Catholics who come here ever start topics on anything other than the Papacy? If this heresy weren't dangerous enough for other reasons, its nature as obsession and cult of personality would seem to be a danger to the health of a church.

Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble.
LOL. I thought the same thing, but wanted someone else to bring it up, half hoping Wyatt would notice. But he has been conspicuously absent here...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online Deacon Lance

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 05:55:32 PM »
How is that different from what we said? We've made it very clear the episcopacy can be traced back to Christ through the Spirit. The question we're asking is: what does the Pope have to do with it?
Sacramentally?  Nothing.  I was providing proof the Catholic Church is in agreement with the Orthodox Church on this.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:57:01 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 05:56:24 PM »
How is that different from what we said? We've made it very clear the episcopacy can be traced back to Christ through the Spirit. The question we're asking is: what does the Pope have to do with it?
Sacramentally?  Nothing.

Whew. Glad that's settled!

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 11:29:44 PM »
Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble.

LOL. I thought the same thing, but wanted someone else to bring it up, half hoping Wyatt would notice. But he has been conspicuously absent here...
LOL...well, apparently some of us do from looking at the OP. Huh...how about that. Maybe it's just those who aren't interested in proselytizing that don't bring up the Pope. In my experience, when we're amongst ourselves at Mass, the Pope is not brought up during homilies that much. I've heard far more sentences in homilies that start with "Scripture teaches us...." or "The Catholic Church teaches......" than "The Pope says....."

But then what do I know? I've only been Catholic since 2007. Perhaps I am not yet privy to the secret plot of the Pope to take over the world and persecute the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:30:25 PM by Wyatt »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 11:42:35 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble.

LOL. I thought the same thing, but wanted someone else to bring it up, half hoping Wyatt would notice. But he has been conspicuously absent here...
LOL...well, apparently some of us do from looking at the OP. Huh...how about that. Maybe it's just those who aren't interested in proselytizing that don't bring up the Pope. In my experience, when we're amongst ourselves at Mass, the Pope is not brought up during homilies that much. I've heard far more sentences in homilies that start with "Scripture teaches us...." or "The Catholic Church teaches......" than "The Pope says....."

But then what do I know? I've only been Catholic since 2007. Perhaps I am not yet privy to the secret plot of the Pope to take over the world and persecute the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox.
it's not all that secret. Have you been paying attention?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 11:52:28 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble.

LOL. I thought the same thing, but wanted someone else to bring it up, half hoping Wyatt would notice. But he has been conspicuously absent here...
LOL...well, apparently some of us do from looking at the OP. Huh...how about that. Maybe it's just those who aren't interested in proselytizing that don't bring up the Pope. In my experience, when we're amongst ourselves at Mass, the Pope is not brought up during homilies that much. I've heard far more sentences in homilies that start with "Scripture teaches us...." or "The Catholic Church teaches......" than "The Pope says....."

But then what do I know? I've only been Catholic since 2007. Perhaps I am not yet privy to the secret plot of the Pope to take over the world and persecute the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox.
it's not all that secret. Have you been paying attention?
Sorry...I only read Chick tracts for their comedic value now.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 11:57:18 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble.

LOL. I thought the same thing, but wanted someone else to bring it up, half hoping Wyatt would notice. But he has been conspicuously absent here...
LOL...well, apparently some of us do from looking at the OP. Huh...how about that. Maybe it's just those who aren't interested in proselytizing that don't bring up the Pope. In my experience, when we're amongst ourselves at Mass, the Pope is not brought up during homilies that much. I've heard far more sentences in homilies that start with "Scripture teaches us...." or "The Catholic Church teaches......" than "The Pope says....."

But then what do I know? I've only been Catholic since 2007. Perhaps I am not yet privy to the secret plot of the Pope to take over the world and persecute the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox.
it's not all that secret. Have you been paying attention?
Sorry...I only read Chick tracts for their comedic value now.

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Re: The episcopacy derives from the Apostolic See
« Reply #24 on: Today at 08:14:00 AM »
Wasn't Wyatt saying that Roman Catholics don't think about the Pope as much as we do?  Surely they are not Roman Catholics who start topics on the Papacy, but rather Orthodox masquerading as Roman Catholics in order to stir up trouble.

LOL. I thought the same thing, but wanted someone else to bring it up, half hoping Wyatt would notice. But he has been conspicuously absent here...
LOL...well, apparently some of us do from looking at the OP. Huh...how about that. Maybe it's just those who aren't interested in proselytizing that don't bring up the Pope. In my experience, when we're amongst ourselves at Mass, the Pope is not brought up during homilies that much. I've heard far more sentences in homilies that start with "Scripture teaches us...." or "The Catholic Church teaches......" than "The Pope says....."

But then what do I know? I've only been Catholic since 2007. Perhaps I am not yet privy to the secret plot of the Pope to take over the world and persecute the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox.

It's written in invisible ink. You should get your copy Friday.
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