Author Topic: Do Oriental Catholics Keep pre-Schism, Anti-Chalcedon Saints?  (Read 669 times)

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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Do Oriental Catholics Keep pre-Schism, Anti-Chalcedon Saints?
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2015, 12:01:10 AM »
One reason why I do pray for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation is so that we can participate in their charitable operations and also ensure that their sacraments, exorcisms and other activities have grace, which I believe they might based on personal experience but I am not qualified to say for sure.  Alas divine grace is not something we can measure with a modified Geiger counter.


Your comment reminded me of Ghostbusters. Unfortunately, there's no P. K. E. meter to ascertain demonic activity, either. But the image of exorcists carrying P. K. E. meters and divine-grace Geiger counters made me smile a bit.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 12:06:57 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Do Oriental Catholics Keep pre-Schism, Anti-Chalcedon Saints?
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2015, 12:12:30 AM »
I'll be posting a breakdown of the differences between the margonitho (SOR.cua.edu) recension and the SOC-WUS Diocese recension later tonight or in the morning Mor which should answer your questions regarding the Bar Salibi Anaphora. 

Regarding the elongations in St. James, compare it, here: http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/James.html

With the more abbreviated structure here in the Twelve Apostles:
http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/12Apostles.html

This structure is shared with most of the shorter Syriac anaphoras.  However some feature disproportionate section lengths like that of St. Jacob of Sarugh.

I created an Order of Worship table derived from it which I can dig up when I compare the recensions,  but to compare the recensions I need to get up the wherewithal to sit at my Sun Ultra 24 workstation as the laptop screen is too small to do the job properly, and I'll pull the Order of Worship table at that time if you are not seeing the elongated structure of St. James by that point.  However as an example of an additional section I would cite the optional litany during the washing of the priests hands after the closure of the curtain.

The possibility also exists that the SOR site omitted these from the other anaphoras making St. James seem longer than it actually is, and didn't document the fact.  In which case I would be highly annoyed.  But the additional litany cited there for example, I've never encountered.

However if that's the case, it's still apples to apples on comparing the length of Mar Bar Salibi to St. John Chrysostom, or other anaphoras.

So I hope I'm able to pull up the comparison I did of the two so you can tell me if this is a formatting oddity on SOR or if in fact St. James is substantially longer.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do Oriental Catholics Keep pre-Schism, Anti-Chalcedon Saints?
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2015, 12:23:42 AM »
Regarding the elongations in St. James, compare it, here: http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/James.html

With the more abbreviated structure here in the Twelve Apostles:
http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/12Apostles.html

This structure is shared with most of the shorter Syriac anaphoras.  However some feature disproportionate section lengths like that of St. Jacob of Sarugh.

The answer to this discrepancy is given by yourself below:

Quote
The possibility also exists that the SOR site omitted these from the other anaphoras making St. James seem longer than it actually is, and didn't document the fact.


Generally, the priest's service book (kept at the altar) will not have a lot of the material you find included in James as it appears on SOR because it is located in the deacon's service book.  That this particular edition included that material in James is convenient, but it is not necessary to add it to every anaphora since it is not properly part of the anaphora to begin with.   

Quote
So I hope I'm able to pull up the comparison I did of the two so you can tell me if this is a formatting oddity on SOR or if in fact St. James is substantially longer.

James is longer, but not terribly so. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline wgw

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Re: Do Oriental Catholics Keep pre-Schism, Anti-Chalcedon Saints?
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2015, 12:49:37 AM »
However in that case I find myself baffled a bit in that how do these portions align with the Anaphora as recited by the priest, if it's not St. James?  I'll have to try and deconstruct it a bit from I Pray but this is making my head hurt a bit,

In our lifetime I hope someone publishes a complete, integral English translation of the entire Syriac Orthodox liturgy with explanations on how to read, understand and use each part and how the services are put together, including the Fanqitho, because working with awful English translations like those on SOR and in the Shima I obtained is frustrating.

I think all of the Eastern churches have relatively user hostile service books because of the use of different books for different users, I.e. a priests book, a deacons book, and so on.  The Roman Missal/Breviary model is more user friendly.  But our rites are I believe too ornate to fit into a one volume missal and a two volume breviary.  Note that I am not discounting the utility of user specific books, but rather stressing the usefulness of works that include essentially all the parts, like a conductor's score if you will.

This will of course ultimately be software.  The Syriac Orthodox are using PowerPoint, but the Copts in Los Angeles are using a more sophisticated custom program which has menus, but even its a bit awful.  What would be ideal would be something that would spit out the most useful test on different monitors in the church: one in place of the altar book for the priest, some for the deacons, some for the choir, and others for the laity.  But you would be able to see the whole service and select the optional parts like choice of Anaphora and optional hymns and husoye prayers based on the occasion, and the service would snap together.  There are already several good automated websites running the Tridentine Breviary and Missal.  Like this one (which still according to the git changelog requires some manual intervention) http://divinumofficium.com
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Do Oriental Catholics Keep pre-Schism, Anti-Chalcedon Saints?
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2015, 08:47:36 AM »
Antonious, do you believe we're at a point wherein the Roman patriarch has lost control over the Oriental Catholic Churches that were inappropriately subordinated to him?  So that if for example the Syriac Catholics or Coptic Catholics or Maronites became aggrieved about something Rome did, such as if Pope Francis were to capitulate on gay marriage (unlikely but not utterly inconceivable; one often feels like he would if he could), these churches could simply break communion with Rome without being subject to an epic property battle a hundred times the size of that of the ECUSA vs. the conservative parishes and dioceses?   Or a thousand times, more likely.  Or does their apparent autonomy extend only to liturgical commemorations and so on?  Where Pius XII and Vatican II did really open the floodgates for de Latinization and local control.

I'm just not sure if any Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church could break free of Rome as a whole even if it wanted to, and as much as we might like to see such a change occur.  For example I would love to see the Maronites throw off the Roman yoke they unwisely donned during the crusades, which they probably could have done before the diaspora, when they had effective sovereignity as powerful Lebanese mountain warlords rivaled only by the Druze, and like the Druze, their main rivals, effectively beyond the reach of the Sublime Porte, but which I am not sure they could accomplish now given their weakened numbers, increased Islamic power, a Druze leader who seems to be a marijuana addict, and a massive diaspora in the US and elsewhere.

By the way I should stress that rather than breaking off parts of the Roman church that Rome broke off from the Orthodox or otherwise appropriated, Inwould prefer it if Rome simply began a process of Orthodoxification.  Write a Patristic interpretation of the Summa, decouple the Eastern churches from Roman doctrine entirely and allow them to restore Eastern doctrine, and then harmonize on that, the goal being to restore the Latin church to its pristine condition around the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great.

I don't know the particulars of the property rights of the formerly Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches either in their homelands or in the "Lands of Immigration" vs. the heterodox to which they wrongly subordinated themselves.  Whatever the case may be, I would be ecstatic if any or all of them - Eastern or Oriental - abandoned Rome and returned to Orthodoxy as St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre and his community did. (May he pray for us and for them, and guide them home.) Whatever earthly property they would lose in the process would be well worth it.

Agreed.

I would be especially ecstatic if Rome abandoned Rome and returned to Orthodoxy.  Because the Rome of which we speak really isn't properly Rome, but an erroneous condition that has been afflicting that patriarchate for a great many years, causing it to want to take over and micromanage other Patriarchates. I believe the root of the problem might be a combination of the expansionist views of Pope Victor, Pope Leo I and later Popes, with problems in the theology of St. Augustine (I am considering joining the party that considers Augustine not a sainthis), with the ambition of Charlemagne to create a Frankish Empire in the West in imitation of the collapsed western half of the Roman Empire, and his desire to wield control over the papacy as a means to that end.

I agree.  I think that would be a much tougher nut to crack though.  My take on Rome's returning to Orthodoxy:



"It is too late for me, my son."

I add my prayers to yours, but I doubt it before the Parousia.

P.S. - Re: St. Augustine, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's not a saint, but certain aspects of his theology are absolutely problematic from an Orthodox point of view.  I find the EO evaluation(s) of St. Augustine far more convincing than the less critical Coptic, and I agree 100% with Yannaras that he is, "the fount of every distortion and alteration in the Church's truth in the West".  That is not to say that he didn't live a godly life, that he didn't "get it right" on many things, and that he is not a saint.  St. Augustine and St. Monica pray for us!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 08:53:23 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
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