OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 03:01:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Keep the Filioque  (Read 11270 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,001


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« on: September 13, 2013, 01:28:58 PM »

What do you think?

http://www.keepthefilioque.com/2013/09/reasons-why-the-filioque-should-be-maintained/

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 01:35:13 PM »


Apologia for heresy
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,816


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 01:36:04 PM »

Stupid. It cites St. Gregory Palamas as a proponent of the filioque.
Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,424


fleem
WWW
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 01:36:31 PM »

End well: not gonna.  Embarrassed
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
xOrthodox4Christx
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,562



« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 01:38:37 PM »

Quote
Apologia for heresy

Ditto.
Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,795


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 02:00:22 PM »

Third rate "scholarship." A more reasoned analysis of the Filioque is here: "The Filioque: a Church-Dividing Issue? An Agreed statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation Saint Paul's College, Washington, d.c. October, 2003"
http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/2003filioque.html
Logged
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,668


November is short. Type fast.


« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 02:02:53 PM »

Can't keep what we don't have. Wink
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,389


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 02:03:28 PM »

Interesting article, but the reasons given for keeping the filioque are actually the reasons why it should be abandoned. Nevertheless, I must say that it is refreshing when a Westerner unequivocally says that the filioque does involve giving causal power to the Son in the procession of origin of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I prefer that older approach to the filioque debate to the modern approach taken by many Westerners where they - in spite of the teaching of the Council of Florence - pretend that the Father is still the sole cause of the Spirit's subsistence. It is always best to be honest.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,198



« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 02:09:25 PM »

The Church has again and again rejected the Filioque and nothing produced here even begins to provide a case for overturning this. This is the clear expression of the mind of the Church.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 02:10:29 PM »

Can't keep what we don't have. Wink
and what we don't want.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,438



« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 02:13:21 PM »

Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,363


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »


Answer: As a Catholic, I believe in the Filioque.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,156


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 05:17:45 PM »

Quote
Apologia for heresy

Ditto.

As an Orthodox Christian I view it as a heresy.. 
Logged
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,156


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 05:18:09 PM »


As a Catholic you don't have a choice.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 18,352


"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee..."


WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 06:02:49 PM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,795


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 07:22:21 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 08:12:15 PM »

As Catholics, we don't have a choice: we must condemn it as heresy, as all the Orthodox Fathers of the Catholic Church have.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 08:14:14 PM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 
At least it is up front with its heresy:
Quote
The point of the filioque is that the Son is also the source of the Holy Spirit along with the Father. The Holy Spirit receives the divine essence not only from the Father, but also from the Son.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,247



« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 08:15:33 PM »

My favorite reason was # 3:  The Reformed Churches kept it, therefore the filioque must be correct.  The Reformed Churches also kept the Catholic understanding of penal satisfaction and atonement.  Because the Reformed Churches have never taught heresy.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,156


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 08:22:35 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2013, 01:31:57 AM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?
Logged

Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2013, 01:45:52 AM »

As Catholics, we don't have a choice: we must condemn it as heresy, as all the Orthodox Fathers of the Catholic Church have.
LOL!
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Wandile
Peter the Roman
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 1,151


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2013, 02:50:28 AM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 02:51:58 AM by Wandile » Logged

\"Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament.\" - Padre Pio<br /><br />\"He inquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 18,352


"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee..."


WWW
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2013, 07:43:50 AM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.     

Quote
...if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.

You'd think Rome would be more painstakingly careful about such things.  The procession of the Holy Spirit deserves at least as responsible and comprehensive a treatment as the Pope, women's ordination, Anglican orders, and/or abortion.
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,795


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2013, 08:00:06 AM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 

They also sponsor another page,  bringbackthepopemobile.org.   Wink
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,620



« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 08:28:00 AM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 

They also sponsor another page,  bringbackthepopemobile.org.   Wink

Server's down. Oh well.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2013, 02:48:02 PM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 02:51:13 PM by zekarja » Logged

lovesupreme
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,110



« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 

Reminds me of http://keepthesabbath.com/
Logged

I am prone to bouts of sarcasm. Please forgive me if my posts have offended you.
xOrthodox4Christx
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,562



« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2013, 05:45:41 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.
Ιτ must be believed by all because the Pope said so... which is why Orthodox are not in communion with Rome. It should be "believed by all" because that's what Christ taught us. That it proceeds from the Father. (John 15:26)
Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »

I like how they've got the dove on the website banner. Really helps establish their expertise on traditional Christian theology about the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 05:54:30 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,363


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2013, 06:27:41 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.
There is a real difference between excluding the Filioque from the recitation of the Creed, and rejecting the dogma as heretical.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,363


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2013, 06:28:29 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
True. EC's just don't have to include it in the Creed.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2013, 07:25:53 PM »

True. EC's just don't have to include it in the Creed.

Is it compulsory for Romans?
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,363


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2013, 07:33:53 PM »

True. EC's just don't have to include it in the Creed.

Is it compulsory for Romans?
It's in the Roman Liturgy, so for now, yes. Could this be changed? sure. It's a matter of discipline.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,389


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2013, 09:06:05 PM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
The Armenian Creed is not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381); instead, it is a slightly modified form of the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). Rome, on the other hand, has modified the creed of the second ecumenical council (A.D. 381), while none of the other Churches (Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) using that creed have done that. On the usage of the creed during the liturgy the other Non-Chalcedonian Churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and probably because they were never as isolated as the Armenian Church has been at different times in Christian history.

I suppose Rome could switch to using the original Nicene Creed instead of the Creed of Constantinople, but I doubt that would really help solve the problems that exist between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. It would be easier for Rome to simply drop the filioque from its present creed.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,247



« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2013, 10:35:11 PM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
The Armenian Creed is not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381); instead, it is a slightly modified form of the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). Rome, on the other hand, has modified the creed of the second ecumenical council (A.D. 381), while none of the other Churches (Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) using that creed have done that. On the usage of the creed during the liturgy the other Non-Chalcedonian Churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and probably because they were never as isolated as the Armenian Church has been at different times in Christian history.

I suppose Rome could switch to using the original Nicene Creed instead of the Creed of Constantinople, but I doubt that would really help solve the problems that exist between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. It would be easier for Rome to simply drop the filioque from its present creed.

But the problem is that the RC will still defend the Filioque theologically whether it is said in the Creed or not.  Unity of the faith must consist more than simply saying the same thing.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,389


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2013, 01:29:37 AM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
The Armenian Creed is not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381); instead, it is a slightly modified form of the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). Rome, on the other hand, has modified the creed of the second ecumenical council (A.D. 381), while none of the other Churches (Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) using that creed have done that. On the usage of the creed during the liturgy the other Non-Chalcedonian Churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and probably because they were never as isolated as the Armenian Church has been at different times in Christian history.

I suppose Rome could switch to using the original Nicene Creed instead of the Creed of Constantinople, but I doubt that would really help solve the problems that exist between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. It would be easier for Rome to simply drop the filioque from its present creed.

But the problem is that the RC will still defend the Filioque theologically whether it is said in the Creed or not.  Unity of the faith must consist more than simply saying the same thing.
Perhaps that is why I am an "ecumenical pessimist."
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Wandile
Peter the Roman
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 1,151


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2013, 05:40:14 AM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.
must be believed by all because the Pope said so... which is why Orthodox are not in communion with Rome. It should be "believed by all" because that's what Christ taught us. That it proceeds from the Father. (John 15:26)

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

oh that verse is interesting because nowhere does it say The Holy Spirit proceeds from the father "ONLY". As such we too believe what is written  Grin

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 05:50:02 AM by Wandile » Logged

\"Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament.\" - Padre Pio<br /><br />\"He inquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,816


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2013, 08:29:21 AM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:30:02 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
Wandile
Peter the Roman
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 1,151


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2013, 08:46:00 AM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others

Actually... St Maximus the confessor defensed the Latin teaching of filioque against the Greeks when questioned by them. He got his information from the Latins themselves and then went on to defend the orthodoxy of the teaching. "and the son".
Logged

\"Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament.\" - Padre Pio<br /><br />\"He inquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,816


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2013, 08:56:59 AM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others

Actually... St Maximus the confessor defensed the Latin teaching of filioque against the Greeks when questioned by them. He got his information from the Latins themselves and then went on to defend the orthodoxy of the teaching. "and the son".

"With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause (aitian) of the Spirit - they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by ekporeusis (procession) - but that they have manifested the procession through him (to dia autou proienai) and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence."

The Latins of today teach that the Father and the Son are the aitia of the Holy Spirit, quite unlike what they believed in St. Maximus' days. Do you believe that the Father is the "only cause of the Son and the Spirit"?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:58:46 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
Wandile
Peter the Roman
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 1,151


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2013, 12:44:08 PM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others

Actually... St Maximus the confessor defensed the Latin teaching of filioque against the Greeks when questioned by them. He got his information from the Latins themselves and then went on to defend the orthodoxy of the teaching. "and the son".

"With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause (aitian) of the Spirit - they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by ekporeusis (procession) - but that they have manifested the procession through him (to dia autou proienai) and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence."

The Latins of today teach that the Father and the Son are the aitia of the Holy Spirit, quite unlike what they believed in St. Maximus' days. Do you believe that the Father is the "only cause of the Son and the Spirit"?

St.Augustine shows this best :

Quote
At the same time they (learned and distinguished investigators of the Scriptures) hold by this position, namely, to predicate the Holy Spirit neither as begotten, like the Son, of the Father; for Christ is the only one [so begotten]: nor as [begotten] of the Son, like a Grandson of the Supreme Father: while they do not affirm Him to owe that which He is to no one, but [admit Him to owe it] to the Father, of whom are all things; lest we should establish two Beginnings without beginning (ne duo constituamus principia sine principio), which would be an assertion at once most false and most absurd, and one proper not to the catholic faith, but to the error of certain heretics".[19][20][21]

The one from whom principally the Holy Spirit proceeds is called God the Father. I have added the term ‘principally’ because the Holy Spirit is found to proceed also from the Son" ibid., 15:17:29).

and yet still he taught
Quote
If that which is given has for its principle the one by whom it is given, because it did not receive from anywhere else that which proceeds from the giver, then it must be confessed that the Father and the Son are the principle of the Holy Spirit, not two principles, but just as the Father and the Son are one God . . . relative to the Holy Spirit, they are one principle" (The Trinity 5:14:15 [A.D. 408]).

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Per oc.rules you can not copy and paste long parts of material from non oc.net sources.  Also you must provide sources.  The rule is to paste a sentence or two AND a description of the article.  consider this your informal warning -username! section moderator
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 09:13:27 PM by username! » Logged

\"Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament.\" - Padre Pio<br /><br />\"He inquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,816


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2013, 12:51:17 PM »

So, do you, like St.Maximus, confess that the Father is the sole source of the Holy Spirit and the Son?
Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
Wandile
Peter the Roman
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 1,151


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2013, 01:26:06 PM »

So, do you, like St.Maximus, confess that the Father is the sole source of the Holy Spirit and the Son?

Not just me but the Catholic Church teaches monarchy of the father.
This source goes into the issue and does a good job of showing this:

Quote
In the seventh century, the Byzantines were shocked by a confession of faith made by the Pope and including the Filioque with reference to the procession of the Holy Spirit; they translated the procession inaccurately by ekporeusis. St. Maximus the Confessor then wrote a letter from Rome linking together the two approaches — Cappadocian and Alexandrian — to the eternal origin of the Spirit: the Father is the sole Principle without Principle (in Greek, aitia) of the Son and of the Spirit; the Father and the Son are consubstantial source of the procession (to proienai) of this same Spirit. "For the procession they (the Romans) brought the witness of the Latin Fathers, as well, of course, as that of St. Cyril of Alexandria in his sacred study on the Gospel of St. John. On this basis they showed that they themselves do not make the Son cause (aitia) of the Spirit. They know, indeed, that the Father is the sole cause of the Son and of the Spirit, of one by generation and of the other by ekporeusis — but they explained that the latter comes (proienai) through the Son, and they showed in this way the unity and the immutability of the essence" (Letter to Marin of Cyprus, PG 91, 136 A-B).

According to St. Maximus, echoing Rome, the Filioque does not concern the ekporeusis of the Spirit issued from the Father as source of the Trinity, but manifests his proienai (processio) in the consubstantial communion of the Father and the Son, while excluding any possible subordinationist interpretation of the Father's Monarchy.

The fact that in Latin and Alexandrian theology the Holy Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son in their consubstantial communion does not mean that it is the divine essence or substance that proceed in him, but that it is communicated from the Father and the Son who have it in common. This point was confessed as dogma in 1215 by the fourth Lateran Council: "The substance does not generate, is not begotten, does not proceed; but it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, the Holy Spirit who proceeds: so that there is distinction in persons and unity in nature. Although other (alius) is the Father, other the Son, other the Holy Spirit, they are not another reality (aliud), but what the Father is the Son is and the Holy Spirit equally; so, according to the orthodox and catholic faith, we believe that they are consubstantial. For the Father, generating eternally the Son, has given to him his substance... It is clear that, in being born the Son has received the substance of the Father without this substance being in any way diminished, and so the Father and the Son have the same substance. So the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from them both, are one same reality" (DS 804-805).

In 1274, the second Council of Lyons confessed that "the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles but as from one single principle (tamquam ex uno principio)" (DS 850). In the light of the Lateran Council, which preceded the second Council of Lyons, it is clear that it is not the divine essence that can be the "one principle" for the procession of the Holy Spirit. The Catechism of the Catholic Church interprets this formula in no.248 as follows: "The eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as the 'principle without principle,' is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Spirit proceeds" (Council of Lyons II, DS 850).
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1176&CFID=10011463&CFTOKEN=62100802
 

 

Even Bishop Kalistos Ware taught that after years of study into the filioque, he realized that the west and the east are teaching the same thing bit rather the issue was all due to semantics and misunderstandings. :
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 01:27:55 PM by Wandile » Logged

\"Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament.\" - Padre Pio<br /><br />\"He inquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,389


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2013, 02:37:44 PM »

So, do you, like St.Maximus, confess that the Father is the sole source of the Holy Spirit and the Son?
The Roman Catholic Church has issued a clarification on the filioque, which is really quite inadequate, because it refuses to alter the teaching put forth at the Council of Lyons II and the Council of Florence, neither of which can be conformed to the teaching of the Eastern Churches as exemplified in the letter of St. Maximos to Marinus.

The idea that the Father and the Son together cause the subsistent being of the Holy Spirit (see the Florentine decree [1]), is not compatible with the doctrine of the procession (ἐκπόρευσις) of origin of the Spirit as understood in the East. Moreover, the teaching of Lyons II, which introduced the novel idea that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son together as from "one principle" [2], is again contrary to the Eastern understanding that procession (ἐκπόρευσις) can be said to come only from the Father as the font of divinity. It is important to note that the Eastern Fathers make a real distinction between procession (ἐκπόρευσις) and progression (προϊέναι), a distinction that Westerners - at least since the Medieval period - do not make, where the former term concerns the Spirit's origin as person coming from the Father alone as cause (αἰτία), while the latter term concerns the manifesting progression (προϊέναι) of the Spirit's energies from the Father through the Son, understood both temporally and eternally. That said, the division between the East and the West will continue until the West unequivocally affirms the monarchy of God the Father as the sole cause (αἰτία) of the Son by generation (γέννησιν), and the sole cause of the Spirit by procession (ἐκπόρευσιν) [3], and although it does appear that the Roman authorities are moving in that direction, it is clear that they are reluctant to affirm the monarchy of God the Father as that doctrine has been traditionally understood in the East.


Notes:

[1] Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), pages 526-527.

[2] Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), page 314.

[3] St. Maximos the Confessor, Letter to Marinus, no. 2 (Greek text).
Warned for a week for violating the rule about copy and pasting entire articles from non-oc.net sources.  Read the rules for the rule.
username! section moderator


 warning removed since it was poster's original content
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:35:10 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.192 seconds with 73 queries.