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Author Topic: Keep the Filioque  (Read 7101 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 13, 2013, 01:28:58 PM »

What do you think?

http://www.keepthefilioque.com/2013/09/reasons-why-the-filioque-should-be-maintained/

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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 01:35:13 PM »


Apologia for heresy
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 01:36:04 PM »

Stupid. It cites St. Gregory Palamas as a proponent of the filioque.
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 01:36:31 PM »

End well: not gonna.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 01:38:37 PM »

Quote
Apologia for heresy

Ditto.
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 02:00:22 PM »

Third rate "scholarship." A more reasoned analysis of the Filioque is here: "The Filioque: a Church-Dividing Issue? An Agreed statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation Saint Paul's College, Washington, d.c. October, 2003"
http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/2003filioque.html
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 02:02:53 PM »

Can't keep what we don't have. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 02:03:28 PM »

Interesting article, but the reasons given for keeping the filioque are actually the reasons why it should be abandoned. Nevertheless, I must say that it is refreshing when a Westerner unequivocally says that the filioque does involve giving causal power to the Son in the procession of origin of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I prefer that older approach to the filioque debate to the modern approach taken by many Westerners where they - in spite of the teaching of the Council of Florence - pretend that the Father is still the sole cause of the Spirit's subsistence. It is always best to be honest.
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 02:09:25 PM »

The Church has again and again rejected the Filioque and nothing produced here even begins to provide a case for overturning this. This is the clear expression of the mind of the Church.
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 02:10:29 PM »

Can't keep what we don't have. Wink
and what we don't want.
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 02:13:21 PM »

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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »


Answer: As a Catholic, I believe in the Filioque.
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 05:17:45 PM »

Quote
Apologia for heresy

Ditto.

As an Orthodox Christian I view it as a heresy.. 
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 05:18:09 PM »


As a Catholic you don't have a choice.
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 06:02:49 PM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 07:22:21 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 08:12:15 PM »

As Catholics, we don't have a choice: we must condemn it as heresy, as all the Orthodox Fathers of the Catholic Church have.
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 08:14:14 PM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 
At least it is up front with its heresy:
Quote
The point of the filioque is that the Son is also the source of the Holy Spirit along with the Father. The Holy Spirit receives the divine essence not only from the Father, but also from the Son.
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 08:15:33 PM »

My favorite reason was # 3:  The Reformed Churches kept it, therefore the filioque must be correct.  The Reformed Churches also kept the Catholic understanding of penal satisfaction and atonement.  Because the Reformed Churches have never taught heresy.
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 08:22:35 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2013, 01:31:57 AM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?
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« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2013, 01:45:52 AM »

As Catholics, we don't have a choice: we must condemn it as heresy, as all the Orthodox Fathers of the Catholic Church have.
LOL!
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« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2013, 02:50:28 AM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.
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« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2013, 07:43:50 AM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.     

Quote
...if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.

You'd think Rome would be more painstakingly careful about such things.  The procession of the Holy Spirit deserves at least as responsible and comprehensive a treatment as the Pope, women's ordination, Anglican orders, and/or abortion.
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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2013, 08:00:06 AM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 

They also sponsor another page,  bringbackthepopemobile.org.   Wink
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« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 08:28:00 AM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 

They also sponsor another page,  bringbackthepopemobile.org.   Wink

Server's down. Oh well.
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« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2013, 02:48:02 PM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
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« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »

Keepthefilioque.com...just when I thought I'd heard it all. 

Reminds me of http://keepthesabbath.com/
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« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2013, 05:45:41 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.
Ιτ must be believed by all because the Pope said so... which is why Orthodox are not in communion with Rome. It should be "believed by all" because that's what Christ taught us. That it proceeds from the Father. (John 15:26)
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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »

I like how they've got the dove on the website banner. Really helps establish their expertise on traditional Christian theology about the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2013, 06:27:41 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.
There is a real difference between excluding the Filioque from the recitation of the Creed, and rejecting the dogma as heretical.
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2013, 06:28:29 PM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
True. EC's just don't have to include it in the Creed.
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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2013, 07:25:53 PM »

True. EC's just don't have to include it in the Creed.

Is it compulsory for Romans?
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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2013, 07:33:53 PM »

True. EC's just don't have to include it in the Creed.

Is it compulsory for Romans?
It's in the Roman Liturgy, so for now, yes. Could this be changed? sure. It's a matter of discipline.
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« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2013, 09:06:05 PM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
The Armenian Creed is not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381); instead, it is a slightly modified form of the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). Rome, on the other hand, has modified the creed of the second ecumenical council (A.D. 381), while none of the other Churches (Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) using that creed have done that. On the usage of the creed during the liturgy the other Non-Chalcedonian Churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and probably because they were never as isolated as the Armenian Church has been at different times in Christian history.

I suppose Rome could switch to using the original Nicene Creed instead of the Creed of Constantinople, but I doubt that would really help solve the problems that exist between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. It would be easier for Rome to simply drop the filioque from its present creed.
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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2013, 10:35:11 PM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
The Armenian Creed is not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381); instead, it is a slightly modified form of the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). Rome, on the other hand, has modified the creed of the second ecumenical council (A.D. 381), while none of the other Churches (Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) using that creed have done that. On the usage of the creed during the liturgy the other Non-Chalcedonian Churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and probably because they were never as isolated as the Armenian Church has been at different times in Christian history.

I suppose Rome could switch to using the original Nicene Creed instead of the Creed of Constantinople, but I doubt that would really help solve the problems that exist between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. It would be easier for Rome to simply drop the filioque from its present creed.

But the problem is that the RC will still defend the Filioque theologically whether it is said in the Creed or not.  Unity of the faith must consist more than simply saying the same thing.
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« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2013, 01:29:37 AM »

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed...

"Your creed"?  I thought the RC's also accepted Nicaea and Constantinople.  Or are you admitting the universal Church's creed is not your own?  Because that's OK...being a non-Christian is not an insurmountable obstacle, it can be remedied if you want.

'"Your creed"?'

He was referring to each sui iuris (Melkite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc) Churches individual variations of the Creed. And before anyone starts saying that no variation in the Creed is allowed, here is the Armenian variation:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Source: http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/creed.pdf
The Armenian Creed is not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381); instead, it is a slightly modified form of the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). Rome, on the other hand, has modified the creed of the second ecumenical council (A.D. 381), while none of the other Churches (Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) using that creed have done that. On the usage of the creed during the liturgy the other Non-Chalcedonian Churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and probably because they were never as isolated as the Armenian Church has been at different times in Christian history.

I suppose Rome could switch to using the original Nicene Creed instead of the Creed of Constantinople, but I doubt that would really help solve the problems that exist between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. It would be easier for Rome to simply drop the filioque from its present creed.

But the problem is that the RC will still defend the Filioque theologically whether it is said in the Creed or not.  Unity of the faith must consist more than simply saying the same thing.
Perhaps that is why I am an "ecumenical pessimist."
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« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2013, 05:40:14 AM »


Except if you are Eastern Catholic; there some include it, others don't. Go figure.

If push comes to shove, an Eastern Catholic must agree with Rome on the Filioque......Don't doubt me.
Why not doubt you?

Because all Catholics must believe in Filioque. Its only optional to put it in your creed if you are eastern because of how it translates into a heresy in Greek. But it must be believed by all regardless.
must be believed by all because the Pope said so... which is why Orthodox are not in communion with Rome. It should be "believed by all" because that's what Christ taught us. That it proceeds from the Father. (John 15:26)

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

oh that verse is interesting because nowhere does it say The Holy Spirit proceeds from the father "ONLY". As such we too believe what is written  Grin

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others
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« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2013, 08:29:21 AM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others
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« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2013, 08:46:00 AM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others

Actually... St Maximus the confessor defensed the Latin teaching of filioque against the Greeks when questioned by them. He got his information from the Latins themselves and then went on to defend the orthodoxy of the teaching. "and the son".
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« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2013, 08:56:59 AM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others

Actually... St Maximus the confessor defensed the Latin teaching of filioque against the Greeks when questioned by them. He got his information from the Latins themselves and then went on to defend the orthodoxy of the teaching. "and the son".

"With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause (aitian) of the Spirit - they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by ekporeusis (procession) - but that they have manifested the procession through him (to dia autou proienai) and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence."

The Latins of today teach that the Father and the Son are the aitia of the Holy Spirit, quite unlike what they believed in St. Maximus' days. Do you believe that the Father is the "only cause of the Son and the Spirit"?
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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2013, 12:44:08 PM »

It must be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church polar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the orthodoxy of the the filioque clause such as St.Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine of hippo, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Hilary of Potiers and St Thomas Aquinas among others

It must not be believed because the Holy Spirit guides the church of Christ in all truth and through the church its has been taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. He has spoken through the church ... That is why we are supposed to believe because the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Various doctors of the church and saints have explained the heresy of the the filioque clause such as St. Photius the Great, St.John Damascene, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Gregory Palamas among others

Actually... St Maximus the confessor defensed the Latin teaching of filioque against the Greeks when questioned by them. He got his information from the Latins themselves and then went on to defend the orthodoxy of the teaching. "and the son".

"With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause (aitian) of the Spirit - they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by ekporeusis (procession) - but that they have manifested the procession through him (to dia autou proienai) and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence."

The Latins of today teach that the Father and the Son are the aitia of the Holy Spirit, quite unlike what they believed in St. Maximus' days. Do you believe that the Father is the "only cause of the Son and the Spirit"?

St.Augustine shows this best :

Quote
At the same time they (learned and distinguished investigators of the Scriptures) hold by this position, namely, to predicate the Holy Spirit neither as begotten, like the Son, of the Father; for Christ is the only one [so begotten]: nor as [begotten] of the Son, like a Grandson of the Supreme Father: while they do not affirm Him to owe that which He is to no one, but [admit Him to owe it] to the Father, of whom are all things; lest we should establish two Beginnings without beginning (ne duo constituamus principia sine principio), which would be an assertion at once most false and most absurd, and one proper not to the catholic faith, but to the error of certain heretics".[19][20][21]

The one from whom principally the Holy Spirit proceeds is called God the Father. I have added the term ‘principally’ because the Holy Spirit is found to proceed also from the Son" ibid., 15:17:29).

and yet still he taught
Quote
If that which is given has for its principle the one by whom it is given, because it did not receive from anywhere else that which proceeds from the giver, then it must be confessed that the Father and the Son are the principle of the Holy Spirit, not two principles, but just as the Father and the Son are one God . . . relative to the Holy Spirit, they are one principle" (The Trinity 5:14:15 [A.D. 408]).

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2013, 12:51:17 PM »

So, do you, like St.Maximus, confess that the Father is the sole source of the Holy Spirit and the Son?
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2013, 01:26:06 PM »

So, do you, like St.Maximus, confess that the Father is the sole source of the Holy Spirit and the Son?

Not just me but the Catholic Church teaches monarchy of the father.
This source goes into the issue and does a good job of showing this:

Quote
In the seventh century, the Byzantines were shocked by a confession of faith made by the Pope and including the Filioque with reference to the procession of the Holy Spirit; they translated the procession inaccurately by ekporeusis. St. Maximus the Confessor then wrote a letter from Rome linking together the two approaches — Cappadocian and Alexandrian — to the eternal origin of the Spirit: the Father is the sole Principle without Principle (in Greek, aitia) of the Son and of the Spirit; the Father and the Son are consubstantial source of the procession (to proienai) of this same Spirit. "For the procession they (the Romans) brought the witness of the Latin Fathers, as well, of course, as that of St. Cyril of Alexandria in his sacred study on the Gospel of St. John. On this basis they showed that they themselves do not make the Son cause (aitia) of the Spirit. They know, indeed, that the Father is the sole cause of the Son and of the Spirit, of one by generation and of the other by ekporeusis — but they explained that the latter comes (proienai) through the Son, and they showed in this way the unity and the immutability of the essence" (Letter to Marin of Cyprus, PG 91, 136 A-B).

According to St. Maximus, echoing Rome, the Filioque does not concern the ekporeusis of the Spirit issued from the Father as source of the Trinity, but manifests his proienai (processio) in the consubstantial communion of the Father and the Son, while excluding any possible subordinationist interpretation of the Father's Monarchy.

The fact that in Latin and Alexandrian theology the Holy Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son in their consubstantial communion does not mean that it is the divine essence or substance that proceed in him, but that it is communicated from the Father and the Son who have it in common. This point was confessed as dogma in 1215 by the fourth Lateran Council: "The substance does not generate, is not begotten, does not proceed; but it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, the Holy Spirit who proceeds: so that there is distinction in persons and unity in nature. Although other (alius) is the Father, other the Son, other the Holy Spirit, they are not another reality (aliud), but what the Father is the Son is and the Holy Spirit equally; so, according to the orthodox and catholic faith, we believe that they are consubstantial. For the Father, generating eternally the Son, has given to him his substance... It is clear that, in being born the Son has received the substance of the Father without this substance being in any way diminished, and so the Father and the Son have the same substance. So the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from them both, are one same reality" (DS 804-805).

In 1274, the second Council of Lyons confessed that "the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles but as from one single principle (tamquam ex uno principio)" (DS 850). In the light of the Lateran Council, which preceded the second Council of Lyons, it is clear that it is not the divine essence that can be the "one principle" for the procession of the Holy Spirit. The Catechism of the Catholic Church interprets this formula in no.248 as follows: "The eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as the 'principle without principle,' is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Spirit proceeds" (Council of Lyons II, DS 850).
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1176&CFID=10011463&CFTOKEN=62100802
 

 

Even Bishop Kalistos Ware taught that after years of study into the filioque, he realized that the west and the east are teaching the same thing bit rather the issue was all due to semantics and misunderstandings. :
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2013, 02:37:44 PM »

So, do you, like St.Maximus, confess that the Father is the sole source of the Holy Spirit and the Son?
The Roman Catholic Church has issued a clarification on the filioque, which is really quite inadequate, because it refuses to alter the teaching put forth at the Council of Lyons II and the Council of Florence, neither of which can be conformed to the teaching of the Eastern Churches as exemplified in the letter of St. Maximos to Marinus.

The idea that the Father and the Son together cause the subsistent being of the Holy Spirit (see the Florentine decree [1]), is not compatible with the doctrine of the procession (ἐκπόρευσις) of origin of the Spirit as understood in the East. Moreover, the teaching of Lyons II, which introduced the novel idea that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son together as from "one principle" [2], is again contrary to the Eastern understanding that procession (ἐκπόρευσις) can be said to come only from the Father as the font of divinity. It is important to note that the Eastern Fathers make a real distinction between procession (ἐκπόρευσις) and progression (προϊέναι), a distinction that Westerners - at least since the Medieval period - do not make, where the former term concerns the Spirit's origin as person coming from the Father alone as cause (αἰτία), while the latter term concerns the manifesting progression (προϊέναι) of the Spirit's energies from the Father through the Son, understood both temporally and eternally. That said, the division between the East and the West will continue until the West unequivocally affirms the monarchy of God the Father as the sole cause (αἰτία) of the Son by generation (γέννησιν), and the sole cause of the Spirit by procession (ἐκπόρευσιν) [3], and although it does appear that the Roman authorities are moving in that direction, it is clear that they are reluctant to affirm the monarchy of God the Father as that doctrine has been traditionally understood in the East.


Notes:

[1] Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), pages 526-527.

[2] Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), page 314.

[3] St. Maximos the Confessor, Letter to Marinus, no. 2 (Greek text).
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