Author Topic: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven  (Read 2607 times)

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Offline JoeS2

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

My question is: If this is can be taken more than two ways, who the heck is writing his material?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 11:43:42 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline TheTrisagion

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I hope that there is a different side to this story.  Telling those who have no faith in God that they can make it to heaven by just following their conscience sounds excessively dangerous.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Not sure of the context of the quotes here, but considering how the writer of the story took the quote from the last paragraph out of context, I'm skeptical as to their reporting...
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Offline Gunnarr

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Not sure of the context of the quotes here, but considering how the writer of the story took the quote from the last paragraph out of context, I'm skeptical as to their reporting...

I agree
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The media is desperate to cultivate a "liberal" Pope. These poor Popes are always being pigeonholed politically. I suspect Pope Francis understands that people with political agendas will always try to parse his words to suit their own ends. But he will keep promoting the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church either way. I'm no fan of the Papacy, but I am becoming a fan of Pope Francis. May God guide and protect him.


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« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:29:38 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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I feel in my heart that the remarks if true have merit in the sense that we are not the judges, and so it is only God who matters.

Too often people are quick to judge and the effects leads to more suffering, Jesus said to do good to those who hate us.What he is saying is based on Gospels such as,
 Luke 6
Love for Enemies

27“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

And if we did these things instead of accusing them of heresy and worse we all would be better off.

God will decide who should be forgiven.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:41:35 AM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Offline Alpo

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One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 06:49:45 AM by Alpo »

Offline scamandrius

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One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.

I do, too.  Benedict XVI was a theological thinker of the highest order not some wishy-washy hack who almost always appears as if he tries so desperately to have everyone like him.  
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 11:11:28 AM by scamandrius »
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Offline Punch

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One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.

I do, too.  Benedict XVI was a theological thinker of the highest order not some wishy-washy hack who almost always appears as if he tries so desperately to have everyone like him.  

Beginning to agree.  If the Pope did indeed say what is reported, we may be looking at the Antichrist (who will be loved by all - at first).
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Shiny

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One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.

I do, too.  Benedict XVI was a theological thinker of the highest order not some wishy-washy hack who almost always appears as if he tries so desperately to have everyone like him.  
Yeah and all that thinking did nothing with the sex abuses.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 12:58:07 PM »
One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.

I do, too.  Benedict XVI was a theological thinker of the highest order not some wishy-washy hack who almost always appears as if he tries so desperately to have everyone like him.  

Beginning to agree.  If the Pope did indeed say what is reported, we may be looking at the Antichrist (who will be loved by all - at first).
Wow. That's an original thought.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 12:58:20 PM »
One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.

I do, too.  Benedict XVI was a theological thinker of the highest order not some wishy-washy hack who almost always appears as if he tries so desperately to have everyone like him.  

Beginning to agree.  If the Pope did indeed say what is reported, we may be looking at the Antichrist (who will be loved by all - at first).

 :D Pope Francis is as orthodox as they come. A worthy Shepard. Its not his fault the media twist his words like the time the media claimed he said atheists have salvation when he actually said atheists are redeemed.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 01:28:53 PM »
:D Pope Francis is as orthodox as they come.

Funny. I've never seen him at liturgy, and if he were to show up, he could not commune.

Quote
Its not his fault the media twist his words like the time the media claimed he said atheists have salvation when he actually said atheists are redeemed.

Reminds me of Matthew 5:37, about letting your yes be yes and your no be no. Such plain-speaking (as other Roman Popes have been known for, much to your church's credit) would do wonders to correct situations like this. As it is, I think Pope Francis, while well-meaning, is a good example of the tendency shown by the RCC in some contexts to say things that don't need to be said, for appearance's sake. This is a detestable trait in an organization (or the leader of said organization) which claims to proclaim the fullness of the Truth (Christ) to all the world.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 02:46:21 PM »
:D Pope Francis is as orthodox as they come.

Funny. I've never seen him at liturgy, and if he were to show up, he could not commune.

Yeah that's because he's orthodox... Not Orthodox  ;D

Quote
Quote
Its not his fault the media twist his words like the time the media claimed he said atheists have salvation when he actually said atheists are redeemed.

Reminds me of Matthew 5:37, about letting your yes be yes and your no be no. Such plain-speaking (as other Roman Popes have been known for, much to your church's credit) would do wonders to correct situations like this. As it is, I think Pope Francis, while well-meaning, is a good example of the tendency shown by the RCC in some contexts to say things that don't need to be said, for appearance's sake. This is a detestable trait in an organization (or the leader of said organization) which claims to proclaim the fullness of the Truth (Christ) to all the world.

But if anything Pope Francis is own of the dew modern popes who speak in plain terms. Its not his fault the media intentionally twist what he says even when it is pretty straight forward. Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Alas! The media go on , in spite of a such plain self explanatory statement, and say "The pope says atheists are SAVED" ... facepalm... I guess Satan is desperate.

in what Francis said, he proclaimed a truth and one of the most essential truths of the Catholic religion.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:48:35 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 02:58:22 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 04:09:29 PM »
:D Pope Francis is as orthodox as they come.

Well yes if we defince "orthodox" by "holding this or that set of abstract doctrines".

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 05:16:26 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And yet this is basic theology, no brilliance needed. Just a simple google search will explain the difference. Yet the media aren't bothered by it. They are more concerned with what sells. So sometimes as the case was here, they deliberately misrepresent what Pope Francis taught as this was more controversial and would sell better.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 06:09:31 PM »
Expecting the media to get their facts right is a stretch to far, after all as the saying goes, why let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I suppose they'll be putting a spin on his acquisition of an old Renault 4.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 06:46:13 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And the disciples that the Lord himself chose were not "theologians", in fact those were the guys who being experts , rejected Christ because of their knowledge of scriptures.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 07:51:30 PM »
I think he phrases things like that on purpose to force people to question and think about what he actually said and how it could be interpreted.

Just my opinion. I don't think it's a bad thing.
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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 08:26:54 PM »
I think he phrases things like that on purpose to force people to question and think about what he actually said and how it could be interpreted.

Just my opinion. I don't think it's a bad thing.

I lean that way too.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 09:03:54 PM »
If the Pope did indeed say what is reported, we may be looking at the Antichrist (who will be loved by all - at first).

He's NOT the Antichrist. He's just a very naughty boy!  :P
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:04:32 PM by theistgal »
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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 09:06:13 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And the disciples that the Lord himself chose were not "theologians", in fact those were the guys who being experts , rejected Christ because of their knowledge of scriptures.

The original apostles were not theologians?  Balderdash!   We accept the term theologian as one who submits himself to God in prayer at all times, then the apostles all fit that category.  I know we use the term "theologian" as one who parses theistic dicta and comes up with brilliant formulations, but even that was a later gifting thanks to Pentecost.
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Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 09:16:06 PM »
I love the pope.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2013, 09:28:38 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And the disciples that the Lord himself chose were not "theologians", in fact those were the guys who being experts , rejected Christ because of their knowledge of scriptures.
I'm pretty sure that St. John the Theologian could be considered a "theologian". Hence, the title.  ;)
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2013, 09:31:10 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And the disciples that the Lord himself chose were not "theologians", in fact those were the guys who being experts , rejected Christ because of their knowledge of scriptures.
I'm pretty sure that St. John the Theologian could be considered a "theologian". Hence, the title.  ;)

Don't get snarky with me.
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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2013, 09:37:07 PM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And the disciples that the Lord himself chose were not "theologians", in fact those were the guys who being experts , rejected Christ because of their knowledge of scriptures.
I'm pretty sure that St. John the Theologian could be considered a "theologian". Hence, the title.  ;)

Don't get snarky with me.
Huh?  I didn't respond to you.  ???
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2013, 01:10:42 AM »
One shouldn't really trust into anything what media writes about the RCC. It's mostly grossly misinterpreted.

That said, I miss pope Benedict.

I do, too.  Benedict XVI was a theological thinker of the highest order not some wishy-washy hack who almost always appears as if he tries so desperately to have everyone like him.  

I miss Pope Benedict as well, but I like this Pope too.  He throws me for a loop often, but I like him. 

Here is an English translation of the letter of Pope Francis referred to in the article in the OP.  Hardly the words of a wishy-washy hack, IMO. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2013, 03:15:50 AM »
Probably his lunch order translated by a journalist who doesn't speak Italian

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2013, 08:34:10 AM »
Redemption and salvation are two different things. He said atheists are redeemed. How much more straight toward can you be?

Journalists generally aren't brilliant theologians.

And the disciples that the Lord himself chose were not "theologians", in fact those were the guys who being experts , rejected Christ because of their knowledge of scriptures.
I'm pretty sure that St. John the Theologian could be considered a "theologian". Hence, the title.  ;)

Don't get snarky with me.
Huh?  I didn't respond to you.  ???

Don't get snarky with me, either. :P ;D :D
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2013, 09:14:22 AM »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

My question is: If this is can be taken more than two ways, who the heck is writing his material?

I guess my original point was that if the Vatican puts out a blurb to the media it should be simple and well thought out where there would be no question as to the point of the subject at hand ESPECIALLY a topic of this nature.  Or, maybe they intentionally put out stuff that may be taken more than two ways.

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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2013, 09:18:32 AM »
Considering that the source of the article is not the Vatican media office, it really doesn't matter.  "They" (non-Vatican media) can write any way they choose.
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Re: Pope Francis assurs sceptics you dont have to believe in God to go to heaven
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2013, 09:48:34 AM »
It's really nothing new; AFAIK the some Orthodox teach something similar, that those who don't properly understand Christian theology & thus reject it can still be saved if they are following what they do understand, as best they can.
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