Author Topic: Life and Death  (Read 761 times)

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Offline Ansgar

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Life and Death
« on: September 08, 2013, 05:39:45 AM »
So, I read something that made me think.

We believe that with the Fall of Man, Death came into the World. And yet, we know that, long before Man, there existed countless creatures, who lived, died and ate each other.

How would the Church explain this?
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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 09:20:31 AM »
That's why old earth and evolution contradicts our religion.
Myself I believed old earth before( not evolution) but then just this question came in mind and I discussed it and so that's the proof.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 09:33:22 AM »
That's why old earth and evolution contradicts our religion.
Myself I believed old earth before( not evolution) but then just this question came in mind and I discussed it and so that's the proof.

But that doesn't make sense. It is clear that life is much older than Man. Saying that the Earth is only a few thousand years old contradicts all scientific discoveries made in the last 150 years.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:34:07 AM by Ansgar »
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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 09:40:46 AM »
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:50:32 AM by Nikolaos Greek »
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 10:06:50 AM »
It still doesn't make sense.

We have found fossils of animals, that have never been known to Mankind. Dinosaurs, the Hyanodon and prehistoric whales like Castorocauda, just to name a few.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:07:13 AM by Ansgar »
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 10:08:29 AM »
Never been known? The flood killed many animals and after many were lost also. Dinosaurs couldn't coexist with humans?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/oect/problems-other-interpretations
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:13:44 AM by Nikolaos Greek »
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 10:27:13 AM »
Never been known? The flood killed many animals and after many were lost also. Dinosaurs couldn't coexist with humans?

Think logically. The remains we have found from Dinosaurs are fossils. Fossilization is a very long process. It doesn't happen in a couple of thousand years.

Besides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:34:47 AM by Ansgar »
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Offline John of Patmos

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 12:40:36 PM »
Never been known? The flood killed many animals and after many were lost also. Dinosaurs couldn't coexist with humans?

Think logically. The remains we have found from Dinosaurs are fossils. Fossilization is a very long process. It doesn't happen in a couple of thousand years.

Besides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

Couldn't it just mean that the first sin of Adam and Eve introduced death to rational beings, ie humans?
People try way too hard to explain Genesis in regards to fossils. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 12:42:02 PM by John of Patmos »
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 11:27:39 AM »
So, I read something that made me think.

We believe that with the Fall of Man, Death came into the World. And yet, we know that, long before Man, there existed countless creatures, who lived, died and ate each other.

How would the Church explain this?

I do not think they can.

Regards
DL

Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 02:03:45 PM »
Well there are many proofs for their mistakes.
Anyway science make a lot of mistakes.
The creation of stars theory has been proven wrong now because they found a double star which ahs a planet while this contracted their theory whcih was a sure.
Now it was proven wrong. I don't see a problem.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 02:29:56 PM »
So, I read something that made me think.

We believe that with the Fall of Man, Death came into the World. And yet, we know that, long before Man, there existed countless creatures, who lived, died and ate each other.

How would the Church explain this?

One hypothesis:
We passed from a young earth to a decrepit, corrupted earth. We corrupted the earth's very history.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 02:49:12 PM »
Never been known? The flood killed many animals and after many were lost also. Dinosaurs couldn't coexist with humans?

Think logically. The remains we have found from Dinosaurs are fossils. Fossilization is a very long process. It doesn't happen in a couple of thousand years.

Besides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

Couldn't it just mean that the first sin of Adam and Eve introduced death to rational beings, ie humans?
People try way too hard to explain Genesis in regards to fossils. 

I think there is also some patristic evidence behind this line of thinking as well. IIRC, some fathers say that it was only due to the the Garden of Eden that mankind was immortal, expulsion from which meant death. Also, some fathers mention that the animals and plants were created to be "impermanent", and that only Man was meant for immortality.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 02:58:04 PM »
My opinion FWIW is that the death referenced in Scripture is a spiritual death.  When God said in the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die.  Yet, they did not physically die that day, but they died a spiritual death as they were no longer in communion with God.  Christ then conquered death.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2013, 06:19:01 AM »
So, I read something that made me think.

We believe that with the Fall of Man, Death came into the World. And yet, we know that, long before Man, there existed countless creatures, who lived, died and ate each other.

How would the Church explain this?

We tried this and no matter how much you try, the symbol minded get it kicked into the abyss that is the evolution thread. A tactic they use to keep any discussion which precludes symblicity from happening.

Good luck.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 06:19:38 AM »
My opinion FWIW is that the death referenced in Scripture is a spiritual death.  When God said in the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die.  Yet, they did not physically die that day, but they died a spiritual death as they were no longer in communion with God.  Christ then conquered death.

If your spirit is dead. You are dead. Physically and everything else.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 06:34:24 AM »
i don't think there is evidence that any animals that died before adam and eve left the garden of eden ate each other.
after all, even humans were not allowed to eat meat until after the flood.

the flood caused fossilisation to happen much more quickly than without extra tons of pressure from the weight of the water.
so there may have been physical death before adam and eve's sin (after all insects have short life spans), but there is not scientific evidence of spiritual death.
also the years and generations in the Bible are not precise, so you can't (in my opinion) use the Bible to measure the age of the earth, just as you can't use the fossil record (incomplete and often forged as it is) to measure spiritual death.

it seems likely that both the modern evolutionary theory and also the modern protestant creationist theory that originated in the developed countries are both deficient.
a search for a patristic orthodox creation theory is more likely to lead to headache than to any useful information.

just accept we'll understand it better in the next life...

Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 06:44:37 AM »
That's exactly what I am saying. And those dragons in old tales should be dinosaurs.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2013, 06:55:23 AM »
That's exactly what I am saying. And those dragons in old tales should be dinosaurs.

That's what the Creation Science Museum would say . . .
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2013, 07:13:07 AM »
I think there is also some patristic evidence behind this line of thinking as well. IIRC, some fathers say that it was only due to the the Garden of Eden that mankind was immortal, expulsion from which meant death. Also, some fathers mention that the animals and plants were created to be "impermanent", and that only Man was meant for immortality.

Can you please give some examples?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Life and Death
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2013, 12:33:24 AM »
My opinion FWIW is that the death referenced in Scripture is a spiritual death.  When God said in the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die.  Yet, they did not physically die that day, but they died a spiritual death as they were no longer in communion with God.  Christ then conquered death.

So to you, A & E having their eyes opened and as God himself says, becoming as Gods in the knowing of good and evil, ---- a spiritual awakening to most,  ---- is somehow a spiritual death to you.

Care to explain your rather reversed view as compared to God's?

Regards
DL