Author Topic: For me, there's just no getting around it...  (Read 1003 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
For me, there's just no getting around it...
« on: September 09, 2013, 10:45:21 AM »
I'm talking about praying with non-Orthodox.  I'm the only Orthodox Christian in my family.  My wife has expressed interest, but she's still currently Lutheran (MO Synod).  Her grandparents are Baptists.  My family are Baptists. 

I've been told before that praying with non-Orthodox is a canonical no-no but for me, that's impossible.  So, when we get together and someone 'asks the blessing', I try to be very respectful but say an Orthodox prayer to myself.

I hope and pray that won't scandalize any y'all.
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,399
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 10:52:39 AM »
I'm talking about praying with non-Orthodox.  I'm the only Orthodox Christian in my family.  My wife has expressed interest, but she's still currently Lutheran (MO Synod).  Her grandparents are Baptists.  My family are Baptists. 

I've been told before that praying with non-Orthodox is a canonical no-no but for me, that's impossible.  So, when we get together and someone 'asks the blessing', I try to be very respectful but say an Orthodox prayer to myself.

I hope and pray that won't scandalize any y'all.

I would be concerned if you did not join your Christian loved ones in prayer. Not a liturgical or ritualistic one, but a blessing before/after a meal, the Lord's Prayer, a psalm, a reflective memorial or a giving of thanks...there are plenty of prayers which one can say without being heretical. Be at peace and don't worry about the opinions of the self assured.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,004
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 11:00:19 AM »

You could always volunteer to "lead" the prayer, thereby, making the others join in an Orthodox prayer.

I think it is okay.  We all do it at one time or another.  Either at graduations, sporting events, even public memorial services.  Often even Orthodox Clergy will pray alongside RC clergy, etc. at a memorial services - ie. Veterans, etc.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,685
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 11:22:21 AM »
You are far from alone in this situation. I don't get myself turned inside out about praying at meals or at other simple gatherings. Being respectful is just being polite. I don't even have a problem with attending certain special events, especially family centred ones, at other churches (weddings, funerals, etc.) However, I would stop short of attending anything on a regular basis.

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,685
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 11:27:43 AM »

You could always volunteer to "lead" the prayer, thereby, making the others join in an Orthodox prayer.


I'm going to gently disagree with you a bit on this one - and only a bit. Not sure I like your wording of "making the others join"  :), though I'm sure you don't intend any harshness. For me the flip side comes when they visit me. Then I lead in Orthodox prayer. If invited to pray by others outside my own home, I would pray as an Orthodox Christian, but not sure I would want to volunteer in order to be a bit subversive. YMMV

Online TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,311
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 11:42:14 AM »
I'm talking about praying with non-Orthodox.  I'm the only Orthodox Christian in my family.  My wife has expressed interest, but she's still currently Lutheran (MO Synod).  Her grandparents are Baptists.  My family are Baptists. 

I've been told before that praying with non-Orthodox is a canonical no-no but for me, that's impossible.  So, when we get together and someone 'asks the blessing', I try to be very respectful but say an Orthodox prayer to myself.

I hope and pray that won't scandalize any y'all.
By your priest or by internet yahoos?
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 12:03:29 PM »
This has come up a lot for me since my father joined an anti-Christian cult a few years ago, around the time when I became Orthodox. Following my priests' advice, we certainly pray separately (even if it occurs at the same time, such as before meals), and I ask that we both be guarded and guided to the truth that is Christ and His Church. I imagine that would be just as good to pray for the less blatantly heretical, such as the Protestants in your own families.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:03:48 PM by dzheremi »

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 10:36:26 PM »
I'm talking about praying with non-Orthodox.  I'm the only Orthodox Christian in my family.  My wife has expressed interest, but she's still currently Lutheran (MO Synod).  Her grandparents are Baptists.  My family are Baptists. 

I've been told before that praying with non-Orthodox is a canonical no-no but for me, that's impossible.  So, when we get together and someone 'asks the blessing', I try to be very respectful but say an Orthodox prayer to myself.

I hope and pray that won't scandalize any y'all.
By your priest or by internet yahoos?

Well it is Orthodox Canon.  (Canon of the Holy Apostles)

Thing is I don't know what they exactly meant in those canons.  Was it engaging in a "worship" service, or what?   Praying before a meal?  Eucharist/Liturgy?
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Justin Kissel

  • *
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 32,252
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 11:01:26 PM »
By your priest or by internet yahoos?

I think you greatly overestimate how great a difference there is between your average priest and your average internet yahoo.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:01:36 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 11:21:13 PM »
I don't think it's a difficult problem to solve. If your non-Orthodox relatives are praying, bow your head (or wave your arms in the air, whichever) and silently pray the Jesus Prayer or some other appropriate Orthodox prayer.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,883
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 12:51:33 AM »
I'm LOLing here imagining the OP waving his hands in the air and swaying while muttering under his breath Κύριε Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ, Υἱὲ τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἐλέησόν με. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

  • Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,033
  • The Lord helps those who help others
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 03:16:06 AM »
When people gather at a wedding , baptism , funeral, etc, we all pray together regardless of what particular denomination, also when families gather for holidays, they are rarely all the same, and yet it is common for us to all pray the lords prayer, even people at AA meetings do that.

So do not worry about the church people who insist on this or that, God loves when we pray and he alone is all we should worry about as the Gospel here says.

Luke 12
4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

◄ Matthew 18:20 ►

For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,934
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 03:34:51 AM »
I'm LOLing here imagining the OP waving his hands in the air and swaying while muttering under his breath Κύριε Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ, Υἱὲ τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἐλέησόν με. 

i am literally LOLing now too... hahaha thank you
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,934
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 03:39:36 AM »
I'm talking about praying with non-Orthodox.  I'm the only Orthodox Christian in my family.  My wife has expressed interest, but she's still currently Lutheran (MO Synod).  Her grandparents are Baptists.  My family are Baptists. 

I've been told before that praying with non-Orthodox is a canonical no-no but for me, that's impossible.  So, when we get together and someone 'asks the blessing', I try to be very respectful but say an Orthodox prayer to myself.

I hope and pray that won't scandalize any y'all.
By your priest or by internet yahoos?

Well it is Orthodox Canon.  (Canon of the Holy Apostles)

Thing is I don't know what they exactly meant in those canons.  Was it engaging in a "worship" service, or what?   Praying before a meal?  Eucharist/Liturgy?

maybe by "pray" it just meant "pray" nothing more nothing less ;p
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,399
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 06:33:22 AM »
Follow the Lord, the teaching about the Samaritan woman, St. Photoni, is instructive.

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,144
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2013, 07:03:11 AM »
I'm talking about praying with non-Orthodox.  I'm the only Orthodox Christian in my family.  My wife has expressed interest, but she's still currently Lutheran (MO Synod).  Her grandparents are Baptists.  My family are Baptists. 

I've been told before that praying with non-Orthodox is a canonical no-no but for me, that's impossible.  So, when we get together and someone 'asks the blessing', I try to be very respectful but say an Orthodox prayer to myself.

I hope and pray that won't scandalize any y'all.
By your priest or by internet yahoos?

By internet yahoos, I can guarantee you.

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,934
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 09:31:41 AM »
the fathers are internet yahoos, they should never have written such silly canons
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 10:22:21 AM »
Remember that time I said something foolish about praying to the Orthodox conception of the Trinity and these heretics don't pray to the same God?

Those were good times.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,144
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 06:05:25 PM »
the fathers are internet yahoos, they should never have written such silly canons

The canons aren't rules to be followed by the letter, and Bishops are the ones who interpret and apply the canons.

Offline Nikolaos Greek

  • Last among equals
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 04:39:20 PM »
Well. Hear me or not.
It is a sin to pray with non-Orthodox. When I became  Orthodox and my fatehr still was heretic I elft alone on a room to do the pray before eating to God. He may felt bad, I may felt bad. Yet God was not sad. Everythign must be sacrificed for Christ.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

  • Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,033
  • The Lord helps those who help others
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 05:17:41 PM »
Well. Hear me or not.
It is a sin to pray with non-Orthodox. When I became  Orthodox and my fatehr still was heretic I elft alone on a room to do the pray before eating to God. He may felt bad, I may felt bad. Yet God was not sad. Everythign must be sacrificed for Christ.

Tell me, when people get married does the priest first tell all who are not Orthodox to leave the Church? How about a funeral at Orthodox church, or a baptism. Or when the priest is at a church festival and gives a prayer before dinner? How about when someone wants to see a service and possibly convert? How about the photographer at the wedding?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 05:23:48 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline lovesupreme

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,330
  • At Jacob's Well you were proved well named
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 12:55:52 AM »
It's not your job to interpret the canons. If you're really concerned, you should talk to your priest. He'll probably tell you to stop worrying.

Offline Nikolaos Greek

  • Last among equals
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: For me, there's just no getting around it...
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 09:13:04 AM »
Well, the theme is different. Praying personal is okay or with people that want to convert. For that in Divine Liturgy those who are under catechism stay for around half of it.
Better discuss it with your priest. As for the non-orthodox to go out, in our nation at least it happens not because Greeks are all almost Orthodox. So I don't know.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.