Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.

[Bogoliubtsy]

Interesting. It seems Archimandrite Daniel, a convert from Islam who studied at Holy Cross and brought Orthodox Christianity to Indonesia while under the EP  is now with the Russian Church Abroad. Here's a bit on him and his mission:

http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/41/The%20Birth%20of%20the%20Orthodox%20Church%20in%20Indonesia.htm

And here's mention of it in a recent ROCOR news article.
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/bpetrnamesday.html

And who says ROCOR is too exclusively Russian!

[Ian Lazarus]

Nice.

A friend of mine recently visited Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, and thought it a beautiful experience.  But he tried to look them up on the web, and didnt find a web site for them.  Anyone know if they have a direct site?

Ian Lazarus :grommit:

[Αριστοκλής]

Ian Lazarus,

Try:

http://www.jordanville.org/framework/frameset.html

Even the website is impressive.

Demetri

[Anastasios]

I met Fr Daniel. He seemd to really be on top of things when he lectured to our class at SVS two years ago.  He spoke of some of the problems he had had with his hierarch pertaining to the role of inculturation, etc.

I had no idea he went ROCOR.

Anastasios

[Αριστοκλής]

I met Fr Daniel. He seemd to really be on top of things when he lectured to our class at SVS two years ago. He spoke of some of the problems he had had with his hierarch pertaining to the role of inculturation, etc.

I had no idea he went ROCOR.

Anastasios

Neither had I. Fr. Daniel gave an impressive presentation here in PA last year. I wonder if he left the EP with 'permission'?  I would like to think so, but then I am probably being overly hopeful.

Demetri

[Robert]

Welcome back Demetri.

Long time no talk!

[CCTE]

Christ is Risen

I have read the story of the Indonesian Orthodox Church, but i do not understand why they left Ecumenical Patriarchat - Metropolis of Hong Kong, and join ROCOR. What happened there? There was any fight?
Now there are two jurisdictions OMHKSEA and ROCOR.
How are the relations between them. They are in communion or co-celebration?

[Michał Kalina]

I've read somewhere that they left EP because it was to much Greek.
http://www.friendsofindonesia.org/about/ioc/history/

[CCTE]

It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native indonesian church. Sad...

[Αριστοκλής]

It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native indonesian church. Sad...

Why sad? They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move. Perhaps he recognized ROCOR as better able, more experienced in guiding this church? No matter...many years.

[Fr. George]

I've read somewhere that they left EP because it was to much Greek.
http://www.friendsofindonesia.org/about/ioc/history/

The brief history does not give any information as to why he's in ROCOR.  However, having spoken with Fr. Daniel on a number of occasions, I know that Greek didn't play a factor in it at all - the mission has been using the Indonesian dialects since the beginning, with no expectation otherwise.

Having said that, technically (in Indonesia) only the clergy themselves are members of ROCOR, since legally in Indonesia no foreigner can head up a Church (from the History article, gleaned from the website in the quote above).  It's an odd situation, but understandable considering the (largely negative) impact of European conquerors/colonists/missionaries in East Asia.

[Michał Kalina]

In the month of September 1996, Indonesia was put under the care of a newly created
Archdiocese, with a foreign hierarch located in headquarters outside of Indonesia. This was
the second time the Church of Indonesia founded by Fr. Daniel had to be under the
leadership of a foreigner who resided in a foreign country with foreign taste and interests. Fr.
Daniel was at first happy to have a Bishop of a similar age to himself, thinking that if they
were of the same generation the new Bishop would understand his original vision and
principles for missionary work in Indonesia. Later he came to realize this was a wishful
thinking.
(...)
From time to time the Divine Liturgy was conducted in a foreign Consulate office in Jakarta.
However, Archimandrite Daniel felt that conducting Liturgy in a foreign Embassy would be
detrimental for future mission work in Indonesia, and also would not be conducive in
reaching local people.

from: http://www.friendsofindonesia.org/docs/history.pdf

[CCTE]

It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native Indonesian church. Sad...

Why sad? They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move. Perhaps he recognized ROCOR as better able, more experienced in guiding this church? No matter...many years.

Because someone leaves a jurisdiction not for a good, or happy think. It is a possibility that there was some problems, and problems are sad.

[ialmisry]

It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native Indonesian church. Sad...

Why sad? They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move. Perhaps he recognized ROCOR as better able, more experienced in guiding this church? No matter...many years.

Because someone leaves a jurisdiction not for a good, or happy think. It is a possibility that there was some problems, and problems are sad.

Not really.  Some of the OCA parishes in Australia left for a local jurisdiction.  No problems at all.  Ditto the Patriarchal parishes which have transferred to the OCA.

[CCTE]

They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move.

Somewane on wikipedia said that they didn't had the permission from the Metropolitan.

Not really.  Some of the OCA parishes in Australia left for a local jurisdiction.  No problems at all.  Ditto the Patriarchal parishes which have transferred to the OCA.

OK, I did'n now.

[Αριστοκλής]

They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move.

Somewane on wikipedia said that they didn't had the permission from the Metropolitan.

Not really.  Some of the OCA parishes in Australia left for a local jurisdiction.  No problems at all.  Ditto the Patriarchal parishes which have transferred to the OCA.

OK, I did'n now.

What do you expect from wikipedia?

[CCTE]

What I should expect? 

[sohma_hatori]

Its good to know that the jurisdictions of our Geographical neighbors, aren't as cold and suspicious of each other as in ours. Many Years for Fr. Daniel Byantoro!

[Theoprovlitos]

Fr Daniel is a very active priest. However as most archimandrites he had expectations and ambitions to become a bishop. When the EP founded the new Diocese of Hong Kong and placed there as a bishop a Greek-American, this was FR Daniel's first disapointment, having someone else over his head.

Then Fr Daniel -though with rather only few years in the newlly etablished orthodoxy in Indonesia- no matter he had qualities, he was trying to introduce cultural elements into the Indonesian Church while the local bishop strongly disagreed for the church being too young to go many steps further.

What is happening now in the Church of Finland is a good example why when a church cosnists almost EXCLUSIVELY of converts who hadn't had the time to absorb the essence of Orthodoxy, novelties are being introduced to it which are not always correct and which reflect the convert's ethnic or dogmatic background.

So Fr Daniel, when in America, went under secret negotiations with the ROCOR who  -according to a missionary priest of the church of Greece- promised him to make him a bishop sooner or later, and he left the EP to join the ROCOR, taking with him the Church buldings and other installations that were built also thanks to the money of the Greek Orthodox, and that was a scandal.

This has practically causes a "schism" since in the New Church of Indonesia we already have 2 jurisdictions causing confusion to Indonesians.

The local EP bishop apparently was not that good for his role and maybe this is the reason why he was replaced. However for this new situation with having 2 Orthodox jurisdictions in a 10-year old church I am affraim Fr Daniel is to be blamed.

Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

This is sad. Let us at least hope that it won't have a negative effect on Indonesian mission by causing confusion.

[Theoprovlitos]

Some addtition:

ivien Liturgies were held in the Embassy for the fear of fundamantalis muslims, since Indonesia is a Myslim country. Maybe some people rememebr that at the very same period fanatics were burning Churches, killing and prersectuig its faithfull.

According to Islam converts to Christianity are the worst kind of people there can be on earth. By presenting the Indonesian Church as "Greek" as possible, doing services in Greek even in the embassy the church was protected. Becasue the fanatics can easily burn down an Indonesian Church that has services in Indonesian but they most propably wouldn't touch a "Greek" church because this becomes automatically a diplomatic issue.

Fr Daniel thanks to his zeal could not understand that an Orthodox CHurch as "greek" as possible is being protected by muslim terrorists and fundamentalists.

[LBK]

...  ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

Theoprovlitos, please be careful, and brush up on your church history. ROCOR was never an "uncanonical" church, despite what some might say.

[Theoprovlitos]

Concerning ROCOR, no matter it was canonical when it comes to Apostolic succession and dogmas, however it was not in communion with any other Church till recently. Its synod was formed without a decision from other churches. This is considered as "uncanonical" no matter I fully undrestand the historical reasons that caused the problem. It is the same with the Archdiocese of Ohrid which is uncanonical because it is not in communion with any other church.

[Michał]

Concerning ROCOR, no matter it was canonical when it comes to Apostolic succession and dogmas, however it was not in communion with any other Church till recently.

It was in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem.

It is the same with the Archdiocese of Ohrid which is uncanonical because it is not in communion with any other church.

You mean the Macedonian Orthodox Church, right? Because the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric under the Serbs is, obviously, canonical.

[Theoprovlitos]

Yes that's what I meant. However the name "Archdiocese of Ohrid" which is the only historical one was offered to them but they rejected it due to their ultra-nationalism. And it is then when the Serbs ordained Jovan as a canonical Bishop of Ohrid

[Irish Hermit]

Concerning ROCOR, no matter it was canonical when it comes to Apostolic succession and dogmas, however it was not in communion with any other Church till recently. Its synod was formed without a decision from other churches. This is considered as "uncanonical" ...

Dear Theoprovlitos,

We were not in schism nor uncanonical.   A temporary anomaly may be a suitable term

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, the American Metropolia and the Exarchate in France were all canonically established by Ukase (Decree) 362 issued by Patriarch Saint Tikhon and the Holy Synod of the Church of Russia in November 1920.  The Patriarch and Synod instructed the hierarchs who were cut off from the Church by the Revolution to constitute themselves into what the decree terms "Higher Ecclesiastical Administrations."  This Decree is the canonical basis for all three "branches" of the Russian Church in the West existing through the decades of Communism.

Decree 362 stipulates that such temporary independence is to continue while there was no possibility of free communication with the Church in Russia.

The Russian refugee bishops were welcomed in Constantinople were they formed their first Synod in Exile.  Constantinople accepted that the refugee Russian bishops could organise themselves as a kind of Church in Exile.

In 1922 most of the bishops went from Constantinople to Serbia where they were warmly welcomed by the Serbian Church and also allowed, with the blesssing of the Serbian Patriarch, to have their own Synod and function as a Church in Exile for Russian refugees.


The Russian Church Abroad maintained full communion with Constantinople and ALL Orthodox Churches (except Russia) from 1917 until 1968.

Here is proof of this - a facsimile of the Yearbook of the Greek American Archdiocese in 1968 which shows the Russian Church Abroad as being in full communion with Constantinople
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/greekyearbook1968.jpg

After 1968 things went sour - the Russian Church Abroad issued three sharp Encyclicals protesting the excesses of ecumenism.  Concelebration ceased but not entirely and no side made any official statements about the rupture.  Priests, both Russian and Greek,  went on confessing, communing and marrying and burying the faithful of each other's Church.

At no time was communion and concelebration interrupted between the Russian Church Abroad and the Patriarchates of Jerusalem and Serbia. The Russian monasteries in the Holy Land were "staffed" by monks and nuns of the Russian Church Abroad and the Patriarchs of Jerusalem provided them with the necessary antimensia and the monasteries commemorated the Jerusalem Patriarch every day -as they still do of course.

Now of course the whole matter has been resolved by the May 2007 Act of Canonical Communion which united the Russian Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate and made the Russian Church Abroad a semi-autonomous Church of the Church of Russia.  Glory to God that the wound inflicted on the Russian Church by the atheistic regime has been healed.

[orthodoxlurker]

Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

ROCOR has always been canonical, as witnessed by the communion with Jerusalem Patriarchate and Serbian Patriarchate.

If some other churches felt the other way around, they should explain why they kept the communion with Jerusalem and Pec.

[ialmisry]

Fr Daniel is a very active priest. However as most archimandrites he had expectations and ambitions to become a bishop. When the EP founded the new Diocese of Hong Kong and placed there as a bishop a Greek-American, this was FR Daniel's first disapointment, having someone else over his head.

Then Fr Daniel -though with rather only few years in the newlly etablished orthodoxy in Indonesia- no matter he had qualities, he was trying to introduce cultural elements into the Indonesian Church while the local bishop strongly disagreed for the church being too young to go many steps further.

What is happening now in the Church of Finland is a good example why when a church cosnists almost EXCLUSIVELY of converts who hadn't had the time to absorb the essence of Orthodoxy, novelties are being introduced to it which are not always correct and which reflect the convert's ethnic or dogmatic background.

So Fr Daniel, when in America, went under secret negotiations with the ROCOR who  -according to a missionary priest of the church of Greece- promised him to make him a bishop sooner or later, and he left the EP to join the ROCOR, taking with him the Church buldings and other installations that were built also thanks to the money of the Greek Orthodox, and that was a scandal.

This has practically causes a "schism" since in the New Church of Indonesia we already have 2 jurisdictions causing confusion to Indonesians.

The local EP bishop apparently was not that good for his role and maybe this is the reason why he was replaced. However for this new situation with having 2 Orthodox jurisdictions in a 10-year old church I am affraim Fr Daniel is to be blamed.

Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

This is sad. Let us at least hope that it won't have a negative effect on Indonesian mission by causing confusion.

Some addtition:

ivien Liturgies were held in the Embassy for the fear of fundamantalis muslims, since Indonesia is a Myslim country. Maybe some people rememebr that at the very same period fanatics were burning Churches, killing and prersectuig its faithfull.

According to Islam converts to Christianity are the worst kind of people there can be on earth. By presenting the Indonesian Church as "Greek" as possible, doing services in Greek even in the embassy the church was protected. Becasue the fanatics can easily burn down an Indonesian Church that has services in Indonesian but they most propably wouldn't touch a "Greek" church because this becomes automatically a diplomatic issue.

Fr Daniel thanks to his zeal could not understand that an Orthodox CHurch as "greek" as possible is being protected by muslim terrorists and fundamentalists.

Answered here:

Is this yet another example of the universality of the Phanar?

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