Author Topic: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.  (Read 5729 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bogoliubtsy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,268
Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« on: February 08, 2005, 02:26:12 AM »
Interesting. It seems Archimandrite Daniel, a convert from Islam who studied at Holy Cross and brought Orthodox Christianity to Indonesia while under the EP  is now with the Russian Church Abroad. Here's a bit on him and his mission:

http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/41/The%20Birth%20of%20the%20Orthodox%20Church%20in%20Indonesia.htm

And here's mention of it in a recent ROCOR news article.
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/bpetrnamesday.html

And who says ROCOR is too exclusively Russian! ;)
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline Ian Lazarus

  • The Main Man!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,545
  • yIjah, Qey' 'oH!
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2005, 12:48:47 PM »
Nice. :)

A friend of mine recently visited Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, and thought it a beautiful experience.  But he tried to look them up on the web, and didnt find a web site for them.  Anyone know if they have a direct site?

Ian Lazarus :grommit:
"For I am With thee, withersoever thou goest"

Joshua 1:9

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2005, 01:53:53 PM »
Ian Lazarus,

Try:

http://www.jordanville.org/framework/frameset.html

Even the website is impressive.

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,497
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2005, 04:09:32 PM »
I met Fr Daniel. He seemd to really be on top of things when he lectured to our class at SVS two years ago.  He spoke of some of the problems he had had with his hierarch pertaining to the role of inculturation, etc.

I had no idea he went ROCOR.

Anastasios
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2005, 06:38:30 PM »
I met Fr Daniel. He seemd to really be on top of things when he lectured to our class at SVS two years ago. He spoke of some of the problems he had had with his hierarch pertaining to the role of inculturation, etc.

I had no idea he went ROCOR.

Anastasios

Neither had I. Fr. Daniel gave an impressive presentation here in PA last year. I wonder if he left the EP with 'permission'?  I would like to think so, but then I am probably being overly hopeful.

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Robert

  • "Amazing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,442
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2005, 06:43:00 PM »
Welcome back Demetri.

Long time no talk!


Offline CCTE

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2009, 11:12:36 AM »
Christ is Risen

I have read the story of the Indonesian Orthodox Church, but i do not understand why they left Ecumenical Patriarchat - Metropolis of Hong Kong, and join ROCOR. What happened there? There was any fight?
Now there are two jurisdictions OMHKSEA and ROCOR.
How are the relations between them. They are in communion or co-celebration?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 11:14:12 AM by CCTE »

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2009, 02:22:22 PM »
I've read somewhere that they left EP because it was to much Greek.
http://www.friendsofindonesia.org/about/ioc/history/
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline CCTE

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 02:40:49 AM »
It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native indonesian church. Sad...

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 06:00:16 AM »
It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native indonesian church. Sad...

Why sad? They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move. Perhaps he recognized ROCOR as better able, more experienced in guiding this church? No matter...many years.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 07:07:10 AM »
I've read somewhere that they left EP because it was to much Greek.
http://www.friendsofindonesia.org/about/ioc/history/

The brief history does not give any information as to why he's in ROCOR.  However, having spoken with Fr. Daniel on a number of occasions, I know that Greek didn't play a factor in it at all - the mission has been using the Indonesian dialects since the beginning, with no expectation otherwise.

Having said that, technically (in Indonesia) only the clergy themselves are members of ROCOR, since legally in Indonesia no foreigner can head up a Church (from the History article, gleaned from the website in the quote above).  It's an odd situation, but understandable considering the (largely negative) impact of European conquerors/colonists/missionaries in East Asia.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 08:01:05 AM »
Quote
In the month of September 1996, Indonesia was put under the care of a newly created
Archdiocese, with a foreign hierarch located in headquarters outside of Indonesia. This was
the second time the Church of Indonesia founded by Fr. Daniel had to be under the
leadership of a foreigner who resided in a foreign country with foreign taste and interests. Fr.
Daniel was at first happy to have a Bishop of a similar age to himself, thinking that if they
were of the same generation the new Bishop would understand his original vision and
principles for missionary work in Indonesia. Later he came to realize this was a wishful
thinking.
(...)
From time to time the Divine Liturgy was conducted in a foreign Consulate office in Jakarta.
However, Archimandrite Daniel felt that conducting Liturgy in a foreign Embassy would be
detrimental for future mission work in Indonesia, and also would not be conducive in
reaching local people.

from: http://www.friendsofindonesia.org/docs/history.pdf
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 08:01:22 AM by mike »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline CCTE

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 09:36:09 AM »
It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native Indonesian church. Sad...

Why sad? They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move. Perhaps he recognized ROCOR as better able, more experienced in guiding this church? No matter...many years.
Because someone leaves a jurisdiction not for a good, or happy think. It is a possibility that there was some problems, and problems are sad.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 09:40:48 AM »
It is a possibility . They wanted to do a native Indonesian church. Sad...

Why sad? They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move. Perhaps he recognized ROCOR as better able, more experienced in guiding this church? No matter...many years.
Because someone leaves a jurisdiction not for a good, or happy think. It is a possibility that there was some problems, and problems are sad.

Not really.  Some of the OCA parishes in Australia left for a local jurisdiction.  No problems at all.  Ditto the Patriarchal parishes which have transferred to the OCA.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline CCTE

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 09:51:34 AM »
They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move.


Somewane on wikipedia said that they didn't had the permission from the Metropolitan.



Not really.  Some of the OCA parishes in Australia left for a local jurisdiction.  No problems at all.  Ditto the Patriarchal parishes which have transferred to the OCA.
OK, I did'n now.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 09:52:01 AM by CCTE »

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 09:59:02 AM »
They properly asked for, and received, permission from the Patriarch of Constantinople for this move.


Somewane on wikipedia said that they didn't had the permission from the Metropolitan.



Not really.  Some of the OCA parishes in Australia left for a local jurisdiction.  No problems at all.  Ditto the Patriarchal parishes which have transferred to the OCA.
OK, I did'n now.

What do you expect from wikipedia?
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline CCTE

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 11:03:42 AM »
What I should expect?  ???

Offline sohma_hatori

  • Earthbending Novice
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 527
  • The Blind Bandit
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 11:21:18 AM »
Its good to know that the jurisdictions of our Geographical neighbors, aren't as cold and suspicious of each other as in ours. Many Years for Fr. Daniel Byantoro! :)


« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:22:44 AM by sohma_hatori »
""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

Offline Theoprovlitos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2009, 03:40:58 AM »
Fr Daniel is a very active priest. However as most archimandrites he had expectations and ambitions to become a bishop. When the EP founded the new Diocese of Hong Kong and placed there as a bishop a Greek-American, this was FR Daniel's first disapointment, having someone else over his head.

Then Fr Daniel -though with rather only few years in the newlly etablished orthodoxy in Indonesia- no matter he had qualities, he was trying to introduce cultural elements into the Indonesian Church while the local bishop strongly disagreed for the church being too young to go many steps further.

What is happening now in the Church of Finland is a good example why when a church cosnists almost EXCLUSIVELY of converts who hadn't had the time to absorb the essence of Orthodoxy, novelties are being introduced to it which are not always correct and which reflect the convert's ethnic or dogmatic background.

So Fr Daniel, when in America, went under secret negotiations with the ROCOR who  -according to a missionary priest of the church of Greece- promised him to make him a bishop sooner or later, and he left the EP to join the ROCOR, taking with him the Church buldings and other installations that were built also thanks to the money of the Greek Orthodox, and that was a scandal.

This has practically causes a "schism" since in the New Church of Indonesia we already have 2 jurisdictions causing confusion to Indonesians.

The local EP bishop apparently was not that good for his role and maybe this is the reason why he was replaced. However for this new situation with having 2 Orthodox jurisdictions in a 10-year old church I am affraim Fr Daniel is to be blamed.

Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

This is sad. Let us at least hope that it won't have a negative effect on Indonesian mission by causing confusion.

Offline Theoprovlitos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 03:49:35 AM »
Some addtition:

ivien Liturgies were held in the Embassy for the fear of fundamantalis muslims, since Indonesia is a Myslim country. Maybe some people rememebr that at the very same period fanatics were burning Churches, killing and prersectuig its faithfull.

According to Islam converts to Christianity are the worst kind of people there can be on earth. By presenting the Indonesian Church as "Greek" as possible, doing services in Greek even in the embassy the church was protected. Becasue the fanatics can easily burn down an Indonesian Church that has services in Indonesian but they most propably wouldn't touch a "Greek" church because this becomes automatically a diplomatic issue.

Fr Daniel thanks to his zeal could not understand that an Orthodox CHurch as "greek" as possible is being protected by muslim terrorists and fundamentalists.


Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,616
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2009, 08:12:02 AM »
Quote
...  ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

Theoprovlitos, please be careful, and brush up on your church history. ROCOR was never an "uncanonical" church, despite what some might say.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Theoprovlitos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2009, 08:49:17 AM »
Concerning ROCOR, no matter it was canonical when it comes to Apostolic succession and dogmas, however it was not in communion with any other Church till recently. Its synod was formed without a decision from other churches. This is considered as "uncanonical" no matter I fully undrestand the historical reasons that caused the problem. It is the same with the Archdiocese of Ohrid which is uncanonical because it is not in communion with any other church.

Offline Michał

  • ['mi:hɑʊ]
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 824
  • "Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2009, 09:20:33 AM »
Concerning ROCOR, no matter it was canonical when it comes to Apostolic succession and dogmas, however it was not in communion with any other Church till recently.

It was in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem.

It is the same with the Archdiocese of Ohrid which is uncanonical because it is not in communion with any other church.

You mean the Macedonian Orthodox Church, right? Because the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric under the Serbs is, obviously, canonical.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 09:21:20 AM by Michał »

Offline Theoprovlitos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2009, 09:31:29 AM »
Yes that's what I meant. However the name "Archdiocese of Ohrid" which is the only historical one was offered to them but they rejected it due to their ultra-nationalism. And it is then when the Serbs ordained Jovan as a canonical Bishop of Ohrid

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,991
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2009, 09:35:56 AM »
Concerning ROCOR, no matter it was canonical when it comes to Apostolic succession and dogmas, however it was not in communion with any other Church till recently. Its synod was formed without a decision from other churches. This is considered as "uncanonical" ...

Dear Theoprovlitos,

We were not in schism nor uncanonical.   A temporary anomaly may be a suitable term

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, the American Metropolia and the Exarchate in France were all canonically established by Ukase (Decree) 362 issued by Patriarch Saint Tikhon and the Holy Synod of the Church of Russia in November 1920.  The Patriarch and Synod instructed the hierarchs who were cut off from the Church by the Revolution to constitute themselves into what the decree terms "Higher Ecclesiastical Administrations."  This Decree is the canonical basis for all three "branches" of the Russian Church in the West existing through the decades of Communism.

Decree 362 stipulates that such temporary independence is to continue while there was no possibility of free communication with the Church in Russia.

The Russian refugee bishops were welcomed in Constantinople were they formed their first Synod in Exile.  Constantinople accepted that the refugee Russian bishops could organise themselves as a kind of Church in Exile.

In 1922 most of the bishops went from Constantinople to Serbia where they were warmly welcomed by the Serbian Church and also allowed, with the blesssing of the Serbian Patriarch, to have their own Synod and function as a Church in Exile for Russian refugees.


The Russian Church Abroad maintained full communion with Constantinople and ALL Orthodox Churches (except Russia) from 1917 until 1968.

Here is proof of this - a facsimile of the Yearbook of the Greek American Archdiocese in 1968 which shows the Russian Church Abroad as being in full communion with Constantinople
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/greekyearbook1968.jpg

After 1968 things went sour - the Russian Church Abroad issued three sharp Encyclicals protesting the excesses of ecumenism.  Concelebration ceased but not entirely and no side made any official statements about the rupture.  Priests, both Russian and Greek,  went on confessing, communing and marrying and burying the faithful of each other's Church.

At no time was communion and concelebration interrupted between the Russian Church Abroad and the Patriarchates of Jerusalem and Serbia. The Russian monasteries in the Holy Land were "staffed" by monks and nuns of the Russian Church Abroad and the Patriarchs of Jerusalem provided them with the necessary antimensia and the monasteries commemorated the Jerusalem Patriarch every day -as they still do of course.

Now of course the whole matter has been resolved by the May 2007 Act of Canonical Communion which united the Russian Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate and made the Russian Church Abroad a semi-autonomous Church of the Church of Russia.  Glory to God that the wound inflicted on the Russian Church by the atheistic regime has been healed.


Offline orthodoxlurker

  • Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,372
  • al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2009, 10:12:23 AM »


Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.


ROCOR has always been canonical, as witnessed by the communion with Jerusalem Patriarchate and Serbian Patriarchate.

If some other churches felt the other way around, they should explain why they kept the communion with Jerusalem and Pec.
Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2009, 10:59:16 AM »
Fr Daniel is a very active priest. However as most archimandrites he had expectations and ambitions to become a bishop. When the EP founded the new Diocese of Hong Kong and placed there as a bishop a Greek-American, this was FR Daniel's first disapointment, having someone else over his head.

Then Fr Daniel -though with rather only few years in the newlly etablished orthodoxy in Indonesia- no matter he had qualities, he was trying to introduce cultural elements into the Indonesian Church while the local bishop strongly disagreed for the church being too young to go many steps further.

What is happening now in the Church of Finland is a good example why when a church cosnists almost EXCLUSIVELY of converts who hadn't had the time to absorb the essence of Orthodoxy, novelties are being introduced to it which are not always correct and which reflect the convert's ethnic or dogmatic background.

So Fr Daniel, when in America, went under secret negotiations with the ROCOR who  -according to a missionary priest of the church of Greece- promised him to make him a bishop sooner or later, and he left the EP to join the ROCOR, taking with him the Church buldings and other installations that were built also thanks to the money of the Greek Orthodox, and that was a scandal.

This has practically causes a "schism" since in the New Church of Indonesia we already have 2 jurisdictions causing confusion to Indonesians.

The local EP bishop apparently was not that good for his role and maybe this is the reason why he was replaced. However for this new situation with having 2 Orthodox jurisdictions in a 10-year old church I am affraim Fr Daniel is to be blamed.

Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

This is sad. Let us at least hope that it won't have a negative effect on Indonesian mission by causing confusion.

Some addtition:

ivien Liturgies were held in the Embassy for the fear of fundamantalis muslims, since Indonesia is a Myslim country. Maybe some people rememebr that at the very same period fanatics were burning Churches, killing and prersectuig its faithfull.

According to Islam converts to Christianity are the worst kind of people there can be on earth. By presenting the Indonesian Church as "Greek" as possible, doing services in Greek even in the embassy the church was protected. Becasue the fanatics can easily burn down an Indonesian Church that has services in Indonesian but they most propably wouldn't touch a "Greek" church because this becomes automatically a diplomatic issue.

Fr Daniel thanks to his zeal could not understand that an Orthodox CHurch as "greek" as possible is being protected by muslim terrorists and fundamentalists.



Answered here:

Is this yet another example of the universality of the Phanar?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2015, 06:56:53 AM »
He secretly sought ROCOR while under suspension without notifying his Bishop.  He was accepted without Canonical release, and when his Bishop found out he was defrocked.

ROCOR in Indonesia is not in Communion with the Metropolinate of Singapore.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Partisan Pro-Chalcedonian Fanatic
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,631
  • #FeelTheBern
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2015, 07:07:16 AM »
Fr Daniel is a very active priest. However as most archimandrites he had expectations and ambitions to become a bishop. When the EP founded the new Diocese of Hong Kong and placed there as a bishop a Greek-American, this was FR Daniel's first disapointment, having someone else over his head.

Then Fr Daniel -though with rather only few years in the newlly etablished orthodoxy in Indonesia- no matter he had qualities, he was trying to introduce cultural elements into the Indonesian Church while the local bishop strongly disagreed for the church being too young to go many steps further.

What is happening now in the Church of Finland is a good example why when a church cosnists almost EXCLUSIVELY of converts who hadn't had the time to absorb the essence of Orthodoxy, novelties are being introduced to it which are not always correct and which reflect the convert's ethnic or dogmatic background.

So Fr Daniel, when in America, went under secret negotiations with the ROCOR who  -according to a missionary priest of the church of Greece- promised him to make him a bishop sooner or later, and he left the EP to join the ROCOR, taking with him the Church buldings and other installations that were built also thanks to the money of the Greek Orthodox, and that was a scandal.

This has practically causes a "schism" since in the New Church of Indonesia we already have 2 jurisdictions causing confusion to Indonesians.

The local EP bishop apparently was not that good for his role and maybe this is the reason why he was replaced. However for this new situation with having 2 Orthodox jurisdictions in a 10-year old church I am affraim Fr Daniel is to be blamed.

Besides when he left the EP to ROCOR, ROCOR at that time wasn't even considered to be a canonical church.

This is sad. Let us at least hope that it won't have a negative effect on Indonesian mission by causing confusion.

Some addtition:

ivien Liturgies were held in the Embassy for the fear of fundamantalis muslims, since Indonesia is a Myslim country. Maybe some people rememebr that at the very same period fanatics were burning Churches, killing and prersectuig its faithfull.

According to Islam converts to Christianity are the worst kind of people there can be on earth. By presenting the Indonesian Church as "Greek" as possible, doing services in Greek even in the embassy the church was protected. Becasue the fanatics can easily burn down an Indonesian Church that has services in Indonesian but they most propably wouldn't touch a "Greek" church because this becomes automatically a diplomatic issue.

Fr Daniel thanks to his zeal could not understand that an Orthodox CHurch as "greek" as possible is being protected by muslim terrorists and fundamentalists.



Answered here:

Is this yet another example of the universality of the Phanar?

Perfect answer.  If that was the position of the Apostles toward the Roman Empire, we wouldn't be Christians; only a handful of Palestinians would be.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 07:07:38 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (5/30/2015)

I am scaling back posting because the crack in my computer screen makes it harder and harder to type.

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,771
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2015, 09:37:11 AM »
Interesting thread resurrection.  I have been reading a bit about Christianity in Indonesia recently.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2015, 12:19:25 PM »
He secretly sought ROCOR while under suspension without notifying his Bishop.  He was accepted without Canonical release, and when his Bishop found out he was defrocked.

ROCOR in Indonesia is not in Communion with the Metropolinate of Singapore.

He wouldn't have received his release because ROCOR used to be in schism back then. Not that I am supporting either side since both seem to be wrong but the schism is over for 7 years for now and they can finally acknowledge that fact.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Rhinosaur

  • Homo Vivius
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 520
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2015, 01:02:01 PM »
I thought necromancy was deemed un-Christian.

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,771
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2015, 01:49:58 PM »
He secretly sought ROCOR while under suspension without notifying his Bishop.  He was accepted without Canonical release, and when his Bishop found out he was defrocked.

ROCOR in Indonesia is not in Communion with the Metropolinate of Singapore.

He wouldn't have received his release because ROCOR used to be in schism back then. Not that I am supporting either side since both seem to be wrong but the schism is over for 7 years for now and they can finally acknowledge that fact.

Do you have any current news about Bishop Daniel?  I can find a website for the EP Church in Jakarta, but that is about it.  His website doesn't look to have been updated since 2012.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:53:50 PM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2015, 02:00:51 PM »
He secretly sought ROCOR while under suspension without notifying his Bishop.  He was accepted without Canonical release, and when his Bishop found out he was defrocked.

ROCOR in Indonesia is not in Communion with the Metropolinate of Singapore.

He wouldn't have received his release because ROCOR used to be in schism back then. Not that I am supporting either side since both seem to be wrong but the schism is over for 7 years for now and they can finally acknowledge that fact.

Do you have any current news about Bishop Daniel?  I can find a website for the EP Church in Jakarta, but that is about it.  His website doesn't look to have been updated since 2012.

On whom now?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,771
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2015, 02:14:03 PM »
He secretly sought ROCOR while under suspension without notifying his Bishop.  He was accepted without Canonical release, and when his Bishop found out he was defrocked.

ROCOR in Indonesia is not in Communion with the Metropolinate of Singapore.

He wouldn't have received his release because ROCOR used to be in schism back then. Not that I am supporting either side since both seem to be wrong but the schism is over for 7 years for now and they can finally acknowledge that fact.

Do you have any current news about Bishop Daniel?  I can find a website for the EP Church in Jakarta, but that is about it.  His website doesn't look to have been updated since 2012.

On whom now?

Fr. Daniel Byantoro...I think I accidentally promoted him to Bishop, far exceeding the privileges of an altar server!   ;)  I believe he is an Archimandrite.

Or, any information on ROCOR in Indonesia would be of interest.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2015, 12:14:54 AM »
He was defrocked by his Bishop.  If I am not mistaken, even in ROCOR he is only supposed to teach and not function as a Priest.

In other word, he is only a Titular Clergy.  Because he was accepted without Canonical release.

Offline davinpa

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2015, 10:53:29 AM »
He was defrocked by his Bishop.  If I am not mistaken, even in ROCOR he is only supposed to teach and not function as a Priest.

In other word, he is only a Titular Clergy.  Because he was accepted without Canonical release.

AFAIK, he is currently opening a new mission and is a parish priest somewhere to the west of Jakarta.

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2015, 03:34:53 AM »
Yes.  It is all over Facebook.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,365
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2015, 10:57:28 PM »
Yes.  It is all over Facebook.

The arbiter of truth. :)

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2015, 11:21:50 PM »
The photos of Daniel Byantoro serving Liturgy in the aforementioned West Jakarta community are (were) all over Facebook.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,079
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2015, 11:43:21 PM »
He secretly sought ROCOR while under suspension without notifying his Bishop.  He was accepted without Canonical release, and when his Bishop found out he was defrocked.

ROCOR in Indonesia is not in Communion with the Metropolinate of Singapore.
Are you always this enthusiastic about resurrecting threads that have been dead for years?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Kyrillios Anthonios

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Orthodoxy in Indonesia and ROCOR.
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2015, 11:50:11 PM »
Only interesting ones.