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Author Topic: Affliction / Suffering / Punishment  (Read 1694 times) Average Rating: 0
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lovetzatziki
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« on: September 09, 2013, 10:30:11 AM »

Is it possible to suffer affliction in your life for your own evil? Is all suffering justifiable? Personally I often feel I am suffering unjustly, and think there is no God to repay my affliction, more I see the ones who made me suffer unjustly being or feeling somehow blessed on it, feeling great, and looking like God has just rewarded them on it. More this gives them more and more courage against me.. I feel like the bible says "the say where is his(their) God" . I think the Scripture says come God and repay them lest they say "where is his God?" I feel like they feel there is no one to repay them, as also they don't quite believe in God probably the same way I do or at all. To them it is like also a confirmation that my God does not exist. That God is not with me, as they also know me as someone who is into this religious things. What shall it be to me?

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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 10:37:31 AM »


Don't worry about their "prosperity" and seeming rewards of others.  With prosperity comes additional responsibility.

God never promised us riches on earth.  In fact, He warned us that it would NOT be easy, but, the reward would be great.

There are some saints who bless those who ridicule and insult them, because it aids them in gaining humility.  It's hard to be humble when someone is making a fool of you....but, it's also very "freeing" not being concerned what others think, and having to please them.

You only have to please God.

Do not "react"...just be at peace.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 11:07:18 AM »


Don't worry about their "prosperity" and seeming rewards of others.  With prosperity comes additional responsibility.

God never promised us riches on earth.  In fact, He warned us that it would NOT be easy, but, the reward would be great.

There are some saints who bless those who ridicule and insult them, because it aids them in gaining humility.  It's hard to be humble when someone is making a fool of you....but, it's also very "freeing" not being concerned what others think, and having to please them.

You only have to please God.

Do not "react"...just be at peace.



It is not about making a foul out of me, but trowing me in the pit, causing me actual harm, not just by words. I was not speaking as much about their prosperity but about their spiritual state. They seem like having spiritual content and euphoria after causing me purposely evil and injustice, alimenting my suffering more, while increasing their joy, having a state of joy and contention over it. It's totally effed up.. if u ask me.. It's like wanting me to become evil on purpose or something, or like there is no God at all..
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:08:11 AM by lovetzatziki » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 11:10:45 AM »


Why bring God in to this, at all?

If the people are being mean to you, causing you harm, and even rejoicing at your pain....this has nothing to do with God.

They certainly are not following God's directive to "love one another".
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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 11:29:25 AM »


Why bring God in to this, at all?

If the people are being mean to you, causing you harm, and even rejoicing at your pain....this has nothing to do with God.

They certainly are not following God's directive to "love one another".


They receive good things after doing this things to me(good things happen in their life afterwards both spiritually and materially) while I more bad things... I noticed this not in a singular episode. The question is why would God bless them after they cause me injustice, and why would i fall deeper in the pit(spiritually and materially crashed) after suffering injustice? Where is the justice in that? Why would God repay them that do evil with good and those that do good with evil?
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 11:39:42 AM »


What makes you think their reward is from God?
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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 11:40:40 AM »

I'm sure it sounds trite, but you really have no idea what is going on in the long term.  We don't understand why God allows the things to happen that He does.  If we could understand Him, He wouldn't be God.
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 11:42:40 AM »

I'm sure it sounds trite, but you really have no idea what is going on in the long term.  We don't understand why God allows the things to happen that He does.  If we could understand Him, He wouldn't be God.

Than why does he give them to us if we are not meant to understand? Guess what I don't need things in the long term, I need them now. Time is merciless. You can never be 26 again.
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 11:43:50 AM »


What makes you think their reward is from God?

I'm trying to find this things out, hence all the topics, esspecially the "the deeds of the devil and the deeds of God" from Faith Issues. But so far responses have been rudely there.
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 11:49:26 AM »


Don't interpret them as "rude" only adamant in their beliefs!  Wink

You have a tendency to talk in circles, and not accept what others are trying to explain....and therefore, they become agitated and seem rude to you.

You need to be open and willing to "listen" to the answers people provide.


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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 11:51:22 AM »


Don't interpret them as "rude" only adamant in their beliefs!  Wink

You have a tendency to talk in circles, and not accept what others are trying to explain....and therefore, they become agitated and seem rude to you.

You need to be open and willing to "listen" to the answers people provide.




How you actually looked at that topic. They were being rudely from first replies.. Adamant in faith? Not at all.. Just plain ignorants .. At least that is how they looked to me.
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 11:52:01 AM »

I'm sure it sounds trite, but you really have no idea what is going on in the long term.  We don't understand why God allows the things to happen that He does.  If we could understand Him, He wouldn't be God.

Than why does he give them to us if we are not meant to understand? Guess what I don't need things in the long term, I need them now. Time is merciless. You can never be 26 again.
Don't I know it, that was 8 years ago for me!  Wink

Knowledge is not the greatest of all things.  Being able to accept what is given to us is much greater.

I hope I have not come across as rude, I certainly do not intend so.
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 06:52:43 AM »

Can someone who has the Holy Spirit be miserable? Is social happiness a sin?
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 08:07:58 AM »

Can someone who has the Holy Spirit be miserable? Is social happiness a sin?
I don't really know how to answer the first question, but the second question is no.

The Church collective has the Holy Spirit.  We individuals have the Holy Spirit only in so much as we are connected to the Church.  If you are asking if someone can be faithful to God and still have significant emotional struggle, then I would say yes.  God is not an anti-depressant pill that we take and get and endorphin high.  The struggles are for our own good.  It is how we grow.  Plants struggle to burst forth from their seed and push up through the ground, women struggle to give birth, we struggle to grow closer to God.  Struggle and resistance is not a bad thing.

If you mean social happiness such as hanging out with friend and enjoying their company, I don't know why that could be considered a sin unless your companionship is leading you to forsake God.
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 08:13:55 AM »

Can someone who has the Holy Spirit be miserable? Is social happiness a sin?
I don't really know how to answer the first question, but the second question is no.

The Church collective has the Holy Spirit.  We individuals have the Holy Spirit only in so much as we are connected to the Church.  If you are asking if someone can be faithful to God and still have significant emotional struggle, then I would say yes.  God is not an anti-depressant pill that we take and get and endorphin high.  The struggles are for our own good.  It is how we grow.  Plants struggle to burst forth from their seed and push up through the ground, women struggle to give birth, we struggle to grow closer to God.  Struggle and resistance is not a bad thing.

If you mean social happiness such as hanging out with friend and enjoying their company, I don't know why that could be considered a sin unless your companionship is leading you to forsake God.

I mean secular happiness.

If God is no endorphine high pill why bother in wanting and seeking God so much? Afaik one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is joy/happiness? So how can one be suffering, depressed and still have the Holy Spirit. Too much contradictions in our religion Smiley.
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 08:17:02 AM »

Social happiness is not a sin, in the proper context.  Jesus went to weddings, he spent time with friends.  He experienced human emotions, such as anger when he saw how his Father's house was being desecrated, he grieved when he heard of the death of Lazarus, even though he could raise him from the dead.   What Jesus promised was His Peace, he didn't say we were to be smiling, drooling mind-numb followers.  He gives us his Peace when we are facing adversity, dispair, and truly hard times.  Once I asked our priest why God allows suffering, his answer was there are many deep ideas on this but the one he shared that resonated with me personally was that we are not puppets being manipulated by God. We all have free will and we have the consequences of free will.
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 08:18:53 AM »

Can someone who has the Holy Spirit be miserable? Is social happiness a sin?
I don't really know how to answer the first question, but the second question is no.

The Church collective has the Holy Spirit.  We individuals have the Holy Spirit only in so much as we are connected to the Church.  If you are asking if someone can be faithful to God and still have significant emotional struggle, then I would say yes.  God is not an anti-depressant pill that we take and get and endorphin high.  The struggles are for our own good.  It is how we grow.  Plants struggle to burst forth from their seed and push up through the ground, women struggle to give birth, we struggle to grow closer to God.  Struggle and resistance is not a bad thing.

If you mean social happiness such as hanging out with friend and enjoying their company, I don't know why that could be considered a sin unless your companionship is leading you to forsake God.

I mean secular happiness.

If God is no endorphine high pill why bother in wanting and seeking God so much? Afaik one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is joy/happiness? So how can one be suffering, depressed and still have the Holy Spirit. Too much contradictions in our religion Smiley.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by secular happiness.  Do you mean being happy about things that are not religious, like going out to a pub? Or a sports game?  I don't see any sin in those unless you get smashed drunk and lose control of yourself.

Just because it is a fruit of the Spirit does not mean it is always expressed or manifested emotionally.  Jesus did not seem to have emotional joy and peace as He wept in the garden prior to His crucifixion, yet He is called the Prince of Peace.
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2013, 08:34:26 AM »

Can someone who has the Holy Spirit be miserable? Is social happiness a sin?
I don't really know how to answer the first question, but the second question is no.

The Church collective has the Holy Spirit.  We individuals have the Holy Spirit only in so much as we are connected to the Church.  If you are asking if someone can be faithful to God and still have significant emotional struggle, then I would say yes.  God is not an anti-depressant pill that we take and get and endorphin high.  The struggles are for our own good.  It is how we grow.  Plants struggle to burst forth from their seed and push up through the ground, women struggle to give birth, we struggle to grow closer to God.  Struggle and resistance is not a bad thing.

If you mean social happiness such as hanging out with friend and enjoying their company, I don't know why that could be considered a sin unless your companionship is leading you to forsake God.

I mean secular happiness.

If God is no endorphine high pill why bother in wanting and seeking God so much? Afaik one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is joy/happiness? So how can one be suffering, depressed and still have the Holy Spirit. Too much contradictions in our religion Smiley.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by secular happiness.  Do you mean being happy about things that are not religious, like going out to a pub? Or a sports game?  I don't see any sin in those unless you get smashed drunk and lose control of yourself.

Just because it is a fruit of the Spirit does not mean it is always expressed or manifested emotionally.  Jesus did not seem to have emotional joy and peace as He wept in the garden prior to His crucifixion, yet He is called the Prince of Peace.

Did not seem or didn't have? There is a difference between the two.

Yes secular happiness : a good job, big house, car, social structure and dignity, material things, etc.. What I mean is to be happy in this world in a secular way.
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2013, 08:39:40 AM »

Quote
Yes secular happiness : a good job, big house, car, social structure and dignity, material things, etc..

All these things do not necessarily bring happiness, secular or otherwise. There are plenty of folks with all these things and more, yet are miserable. Others are not satisfied, and keep wanting more.
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 08:41:33 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 08:52:17 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2013, 09:01:49 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
I would say that we can find things that we personally don't prefer.  I don't prefer to be judged for my sins, I would much rather He just let it all slide like a senile grandfather, but that isn't the way it works. If you are referring to morality, I do not believe God exercises any negative morality. I may not understand why He does the things that He does, but that doesn't mean what He is doing is wrong.
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2013, 10:47:25 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
I would say that we can find things that we personally don't prefer.  I don't prefer to be judged for my sins, I would much rather He just let it all slide like a senile grandfather, but that isn't the way it works. If you are referring to morality, I do not believe God exercises any negative morality. I may not understand why He does the things that He does, but that doesn't mean what He is doing is wrong.

You said in God there is not only joy and happiness, etc... What contrasts would you say there are in God, than?
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2013, 11:05:06 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
I would say that we can find things that we personally don't prefer.  I don't prefer to be judged for my sins, I would much rather He just let it all slide like a senile grandfather, but that isn't the way it works. If you are referring to morality, I do not believe God exercises any negative morality. I may not understand why He does the things that He does, but that doesn't mean what He is doing is wrong.

You said in God there is not only joy and happiness, etc... What contrasts would you say there are in God, than?

First of all, happiness is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit.  Joy is, but it is not necessarily an emotional joy.  It is the joy we can have knowing that God is in control despite unfortunate circumstances we might be in. We can take joy in our trials, knowing that God is using them to help us to grow.
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
I would say that we can find things that we personally don't prefer.  I don't prefer to be judged for my sins, I would much rather He just let it all slide like a senile grandfather, but that isn't the way it works. If you are referring to morality, I do not believe God exercises any negative morality. I may not understand why He does the things that He does, but that doesn't mean what He is doing is wrong.

You said in God there is not only joy and happiness, etc... What contrasts would you say there are in God, than?

First of all, happiness is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit.  Joy is, but it is not necessarily an emotional joy.  It is the joy we can have knowing that God is in control despite unfortunate circumstances we might be in. We can take joy in our trials, knowing that God is using them to help us to grow.

How do you know when is God or when the devil? If your suffering was implemented for your perdition or for your own good?
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2013, 11:58:06 AM »

Quote from: Prayer of the Optina Elders
Grant unto me, O Lord, that with peace of mind I may face all that this new day is to bring.

Grant unto me to dedicate myself completely to Thy Holy Will.

For every hour of this day, instruct and support me in all things.

Whatsoever tidings I may receive during the day, do Thou teach me to accept tranquilly, in the firm conviction that all eventualities fulfill Thy Holy Will.

Govern Thou my thoughts and feelings in all I do and say.

When things unforeseen occur , let me not forget that all cometh down from Thee.

Teach me to behave sincerely and rationally toward every brother and sister, that I may bring confusion and sorrow to none.

Bestow upon me, my Lord, strength to endure the fatigue of the day, and to bear my part in all its passing events.

Guide Thou my will and teach me to pray, to believe, to hope, to suffer, to forgive, and to love.

Amen

Also, what Job said to his wife:

Quote from: Job 2:10
If we have received good at the hand of the Lord, shall we not receive evil?
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2013, 12:48:01 PM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
I would say that we can find things that we personally don't prefer.  I don't prefer to be judged for my sins, I would much rather He just let it all slide like a senile grandfather, but that isn't the way it works. If you are referring to morality, I do not believe God exercises any negative morality. I may not understand why He does the things that He does, but that doesn't mean what He is doing is wrong.

You said in God there is not only joy and happiness, etc... What contrasts would you say there are in God, than?

First of all, happiness is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit.  Joy is, but it is not necessarily an emotional joy.  It is the joy we can have knowing that God is in control despite unfortunate circumstances we might be in. We can take joy in our trials, knowing that God is using them to help us to grow.

How do you know when is God or when the devil? If your suffering was implemented for your perdition or for your own good?
I don't.  I don't need to know the reasoning behind something bad happening to me.  It isn't important.  What is important is how I react to it.  Do I use it as an opportunity to complain or an opportunity to glorify God?
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2013, 01:30:37 PM »

As Trisagion said, it is really about how we react to negative things.  I don't remember where I heard this, but it has been of great help to me, "Don't be so right that you become wrong."  I have no doubt that bad things have happened to you, lovetzatziki, and I won't tell you that you are wrong to feel hurt by them, but by dwelling on how one has been wronged and focusing on the seeming lack of God's retribution, one can lose focus and be so consumed with being correct that they expend their own freedom and become enslaved to the circumstances of the person that wronged them.  I am speaking of freedom of the heart.  I encourage you to read St. Paul's letter to the Philippians.  Paul was in prison when he wrote it and makes mention of prison a number of times.  Paul had endured much, but writes with such freedom and joy, and even takes joy in all that had happened to him because he knew it was for the furtherance of the Gospel. 

"But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ; and most of the brethren in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold to speak the word without fear...  Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."

At the end of the first chapter he exhorts the Philippians to,

"...let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.  For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me."

None of this is easy, but it transforms our hearts and saves us.
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2013, 02:20:53 AM »

Nothing wrong with those things unless you allow them to be you end goal and focus in life.  There are plenty of miserable people who have all that stuff.  It doesn't make you happy.

Either way.  Jesus did not have emotional peace and joy at that time.  It doesn't take away anything from Him.  As I said, God isn't a happy pill you take and all your problems cease.

Would you say that in God we find both negative and positive things?
I would say that we can find things that we personally don't prefer.  I don't prefer to be judged for my sins, I would much rather He just let it all slide like a senile grandfather, but that isn't the way it works. If you are referring to morality, I do not believe God exercises any negative morality. I may not understand why He does the things that He does, but that doesn't mean what He is doing is wrong.

You said in God there is not only joy and happiness, etc... What contrasts would you say there are in God, than?

First of all, happiness is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit.  Joy is, but it is not necessarily an emotional joy.  It is the joy we can have knowing that God is in control despite unfortunate circumstances we might be in. We can take joy in our trials, knowing that God is using them to help us to grow.

How do you know when is God or when the devil? If your suffering was implemented for your perdition or for your own good?
I don't.  I don't need to know the reasoning behind something bad happening to me.  It isn't important.  What is important is how I react to it.  Do I use it as an opportunity to complain or an opportunity to glorify God?

It is important to know the reasoning behind something bad happening to know how to react to the idea of "God". To me this kind of things tell me there is no God. This kind of negative things without an answer why, in the sense of retaliation keep repeating in my life. What is more strange is that those who seem to cause them seem like being REWARDED by God for doing so, and I feel blame, yes even blame for false accusations, I feel like even God himself is saying I am to be blamed and blames me for something I did not do. Who does he think he is to play with our lives in this manner ? I don't trust this God. And I surely won't want his salvation and the afterlife of servitude towards such a God. I am sorry but to me he is not worthy. I want to be happy now, here! I am looking and I see some people who are. People who enjoy their youth, their life and have a good cousy life. What I am saying perhaps God does not exist. There is a lot of corruption in this world and the such. If he exists he is doing a really bad job. And I am not interested about his heaven, or nirvana or etc. Once he screwed things here chances are he can screw them anywhere. I don't want a boring heaven, where i sit with the angels and worship God all day, or read the bible with the Christians Smiley, and things like that. To me it is extremely idiotic to hang upon something like that(the afterlife) and base your own life's philosophy around that. In an afterlife things will fix, resolve, God will repay justly. Guess what no one returned from the death to tell us how it's there. More there are poltergeist stories of kind souls who are extremely tormented with what they found after death and that start wondering back on this world.
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2013, 02:31:50 AM »

Social happiness is not a sin, in the proper context.  Jesus went to weddings, he spent time with friends.  He experienced human emotions, such as anger when he saw how his Father's house was being desecrated, he grieved when he heard of the death of Lazarus, even though he could raise him from the dead.   What Jesus promised was His Peace, he didn't say we were to be smiling, drooling mind-numb followers.  He gives us his Peace when we are facing adversity, dispair, and truly hard times.  Once I asked our priest why God allows suffering, his answer was there are many deep ideas on this but the one he shared that resonated with me personally was that we are not puppets being manipulated by God. We all have free will and we have the consequences of free will.

Except that we are like puppets manipulated by God. It is he that plays with us and our lives, and take our lives back to him, make us sick, brings disasters and so on. From my poor knowledge not even the fathers nor the Church or the councils say that we have absolute free-will. So your God is playing with us like toys. Except that I don't have Jesus' peace when I encounter such things of injustice (that is the problem to me). There is no comfort no peace, but even the contrary I even feel remorse for things I haven't done and am unjustly accused with any evidence. How can that be? I keep asking myself. Also some weird coincides and circumstances have happened that incriminate me. Too strange. It's like God himself created this particular situation. Why?!?!??!?! Is he an bad word removed - MK? Well I want to be smilling, drooling mind-numb in this world, here, now , not after I die in some strange world that I don't know and no one knows where I could be separated from people I like, love, etc. And we have no guarantee of an afterworld now don't we? If I am worshipping God now I want good things now, not in the future. If he gives them in the future than I will worship him in the future or when he does this things.
For profanities you are being put under 30 day-long moderation. I also sincerely advice you to calm down and aquire less aggresive style than you present recently with insulting all the other members on the forum - MK
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2013, 02:39:16 AM »

As Trisagion said, it is really about how we react to negative things.  I don't remember where I heard this, but it has been of great help to me, "Don't be so right that you become wrong."  I have no doubt that bad things have happened to you, lovetzatziki, and I won't tell you that you are wrong to feel hurt by them, but by dwelling on how one has been wronged and focusing on the seeming lack of God's retribution, one can lose focus and be so consumed with being correct that they expend their own freedom and become enslaved to the circumstances of the person that wronged them.  I am speaking of freedom of the heart.  I encourage you to read St. Paul's letter to the Philippians.  Paul was in prison when he wrote it and makes mention of prison a number of times.  Paul had endured much, but writes with such freedom and joy, and even takes joy in all that had happened to him because he knew it was for the furtherance of the Gospel. 

"But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ; and most of the brethren in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold to speak the word without fear...  Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."

At the end of the first chapter he exhorts the Philippians to,

"...let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.  For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me."

None of this is easy, but it transforms our hearts and saves us.

Except that I feel that this things are for my perdition and their salvation (evil, no?). I have yet to see a man happy in suffering. And Paul? He was crying his ass out in front of the court. Talking about happiness and the such. To me he looked like desparated and like someone who wanted out. And we don't have any certainty that Paul , Jesus, the apostles or anyone was how the bible describes them or that they existed at all. If I can't get happiness, justice in this world, here, now, what guarentess do I have that I would get them in another world I don't know about and no one knows about and that chances are it doesn't even exist.

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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2013, 02:47:29 AM »

Quote from: Prayer of the Optina Elders
Grant unto me, O Lord, that with peace of mind I may face all that this new day is to bring.

Grant unto me to dedicate myself completely to Thy Holy Will.

For every hour of this day, instruct and support me in all things.

Whatsoever tidings I may receive during the day, do Thou teach me to accept tranquilly, in the firm conviction that all eventualities fulfill Thy Holy Will.

Govern Thou my thoughts and feelings in all I do and say.

When things unforeseen occur , let me not forget that all cometh down from Thee.

Teach me to behave sincerely and rationally toward every brother and sister, that I may bring confusion and sorrow to none.

Bestow upon me, my Lord, strength to endure the fatigue of the day, and to bear my part in all its passing events.

Guide Thou my will and teach me to pray, to believe, to hope, to suffer, to forgive, and to love.

Amen

Also, what Job said to his wife:

Quote from: Job 2:10
If we have received good at the hand of the Lord, shall we not receive evil?

Do you really think this is how God works? Smiley.. Killing one's own familly and than giving other family instead of it? Does that bring back the children that have died? Or do the years of old age compare with those of youth and power? Didn't the psalmist say that life after 70 years is hard? Job sounds like an invented story. A good-night story for kids. Like most (if not all) of the Bible Smiley. Even writers and poets can invent more plausible stories.
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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2013, 03:32:19 AM »

Job sounds like an invented story. A good-night story for kids. Like most (if not all) of the Bible Smiley. Even writers and poets can invent more plausible stories.

The Kingdom of God is for kids: "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:17)
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« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2013, 03:36:54 AM »

Job sounds like an invented story. A good-night story for kids. Like most (if not all) of the Bible Smiley. Even writers and poets can invent more plausible stories.

The Kingdom of God is for kids: "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:17)

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

And please tell us when was the last time God spoke to you Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2013, 03:39:11 AM »

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

Whatever happens to you is part of "how God works".
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« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2013, 03:42:38 AM »

And please tell us when was the last time God spoke to you Smiley

The last time I was willing to listen...  Sad
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« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2013, 03:43:21 AM »

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

Whatever happens to you is part of "how God works".

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.
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« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2013, 03:47:57 AM »

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

Whatever happens to you is part of "how God works".

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.

Folks here have quoted scripture, you don't like it. Folks here have quoted from the Fathers, you reject it. Others have given other sorts of advice, and you refuse to accept it. People are trying to help, and you knock them back, criticizing what they say.

It's almost like you don't want to be helped.  Huh
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« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2013, 03:50:48 AM »

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.

If that's how you feel about it, forgive me and ignore what I wrote (which happens to be what I believe and think). No offence taken.  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2013, 03:51:05 AM »

And please tell us when was the last time God spoke to you Smiley

The last time I was willing to listen...  Sad

Was it something like this :

Quote
40 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said,

2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6 Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

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Exodus 3
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3 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

7 And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

 

If you are willing to listen you can hear even the walls speak. There are a lot of people who are willing to listen locked on nut houses. Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2013, 03:54:58 AM »

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.

If that's how you feel about it, forgive me and ignore what I wrote (which happens to be what I believe and think). No offence taken.  Smiley

Nope it doesn't. Most of your replies were just bare verse-pickings and abstract answers. Why don't you try some real communication?
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2013, 04:01:45 AM »

If you are willing to listen you can hear even the walls speak. There are a lot of people who are willing to listen locked on nut houses. Smiley

If you truly seek to know God's will for you, He will reveal it. Otherwise, we're just part of the big crowd: "seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand".
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2013, 04:16:43 AM »

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

Whatever happens to you is part of "how God works".

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.

Folks here have quoted scripture, you don't like it. Folks here have quoted from the Fathers, you reject it. Others have given other sorts of advice, and you refuse to accept it. People are trying to help, and you knock them back, criticizing what they say.

It's almost like you don't want to be helped.  Huh

Quoted from the Fathers?!? Who? Give some examples. Some people are internet yahoos with no occupation that just like to fight on everything. I doubt that all people were trying to actually help me. If they were they would respond to my petitions as I asked them and have an actual conversation with me, rather than just some cherry verse nitpickings , and some quotes, whom I may not read them as they do. What is your problem after all. It is evidence that you don't follow the threads but insist on calling me on things based on ignorance(no fathers were quoted in anything). Are you a troll or something? I told you no "telenovelas" . My suffering is real. Some people just seem to be insensitive internet yahoos.
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2013, 04:21:18 AM »

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

Whatever happens to you is part of "how God works".

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.

Folks here have quoted scripture, you don't like it. Folks here have quoted from the Fathers, you reject it. Others have given other sorts of advice, and you refuse to accept it. People are trying to help, and you knock them back, criticizing what they say.

It's almost like you don't want to be helped.  Huh

Quoted from the Fathers?!? Who? Give some examples. Some people are internet yahoos with no occupation that just like to fight on everything. I doubt that all people were trying to actually help me. If they were they would respond to my petitions as I asked them and have an actual conversation with me, rather than just some cherry verse nitpickings , and some quotes, whom I may not read them as they do. What is your problem after all. It is evidence that you don't follow the threads but insist on calling me on things based on ignorance(no fathers were quoted in anything). Are you a troll or something? I told you no "telenovelas" . My suffering is real. Some people just seem to be insensitive internet yahoos.


You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. No idea where you get this "telenovela" stuff from.
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« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2013, 04:23:44 AM »

Some people are internet yahoos with no occupation that just like to fight on everything. (...) Some people just seem to be insensitive internet yahoos.

What makes you exceptional other than your very unique and real "suffering"?
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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2013, 04:26:05 AM »

If you are willing to listen you can hear even the walls speak. There are a lot of people who are willing to listen locked on nut houses. Smiley

If you truly seek to know God's will for you, He will reveal it. Otherwise, we're just part of the big crowd: "seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand".

I think God is telling me there is no God.

Auto-suggestion is a strong thing. Children who are truly willing, believe in things such as the tooth fairy, the sandman, the easter bunny, santa claus, etc. It's not a virtue. Things should be obvious if God is God. Not left on our ability to hear / believe / etc. If God is God he can send the proper message that it is appealing to us to understand what he is doing. He should make us hear by His self-evidency , without us being forced to do so. If you can force yourself you can poop, you can hear and believe anything. Auto-suggestion.

I am not here for half-gods or half-truths. I am here because I want the truth. I am still waiting for the more spiritually experienced persons than me to post. Untill now sadly I am appearing to be the most experienced.
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« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 04:29:01 AM »

Do you really think that is how God works? Smiley .. Like in Job.

Whatever happens to you is part of "how God works".

I am speaking about you and what you believe and think. This worthless dogmatic and verse battling has often proove to be quite the diametrically oppose thing that people believe. Strange thing.. Some people just do it for the sake of argument. I am here for real and true conversation not for lousy verse picking and abstract situations.

Folks here have quoted scripture, you don't like it. Folks here have quoted from the Fathers, you reject it. Others have given other sorts of advice, and you refuse to accept it. People are trying to help, and you knock them back, criticizing what they say.

It's almost like you don't want to be helped.  Huh

Quoted from the Fathers?!? Who? Give some examples. Some people are internet yahoos with no occupation that just like to fight on everything. I doubt that all people were trying to actually help me. If they were they would respond to my petitions as I asked them and have an actual conversation with me, rather than just some cherry verse nitpickings , and some quotes, whom I may not read them as they do. What is your problem after all. It is evidence that you don't follow the threads but insist on calling me on things based on ignorance(no fathers were quoted in anything). Are you a troll or something? I told you no "telenovelas" . My suffering is real. Some people just seem to be insensitive internet yahoos.


You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. No idea where you get this "telenovela" stuff from.

Than please highlight what you consider the best advices to be and bring them here(quotes included). Other than that I would have the impression you are a troll.
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« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 04:32:03 AM »

Quote
I think God is telling me there is no God.

    Yesterday upon the stair
    I met a man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away

    When I came home last night at three
    The man was waiting there for me
    But when I looked around the hall
    I couldn’t see him there at all!
    Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
    Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

    Last night I saw upon the stair
    A little man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away

        (William Mearns, 1899)


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« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2013, 04:33:55 AM »


Than please highlight what you consider the best advices to be and bring them here(quotes included). Other than that I would have the impression you are a troll.

Go back and read the posts yourself, in all the threads you've started, not just this one.

I'll say it again: You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. It's like you don't want to be helped.
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« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2013, 04:36:29 AM »

I think God is telling me there is no God.

Some people just love to tell that to themselves. Ps. 14(13):1.

I am not here for half-gods or half-truths. I am here because I want the truth. I am still waiting for the more spiritually experienced persons than me to post. Untill now sadly I am appearing to be the most experienced.

 Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 04:43:00 AM »


Than please highlight what you consider the best advices to be and bring them here(quotes included). Other than that I would have the impression you are a troll.

Go back and read the posts yourself, in all the threads you've started, not just this one.

I'll say it again: You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. It's like you don't want to be helped.

It's funny how you know all the good advice were given to me even quotes from the fathers(wow!) but are not able to even point to a concrete one. Troll alert?
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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2013, 04:46:00 AM »


Than please highlight what you consider the best advices to be and bring them here(quotes included). Other than that I would have the impression you are a troll.

Go back and read the posts yourself, in all the threads you've started, not just this one.

I'll say it again: You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. It's like you don't want to be helped.

It's funny how you know all the good advice were given to me even quotes from the fathers(wow!) but are not able to even point to a concrete one. Troll alert?

Nope. Just pointing out the obvious. You're making no effort at using what help people here have offered to you.
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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2013, 04:52:56 AM »


Than please highlight what you consider the best advices to be and bring them here(quotes included). Other than that I would have the impression you are a troll.

Go back and read the posts yourself, in all the threads you've started, not just this one.

I'll say it again: You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. It's like you don't want to be helped.

It's funny how you know all the good advice were given to me even quotes from the fathers(wow!) but are not able to even point to a concrete one. Troll alert?

Nope. Just pointing out the obvious. You're making no effort at using what help people here have offered to you.

Perhaps they have offered nothing new. I am sure making a lot more effort than you, if I look at your last posts 90% were trolling and arguments to persons. Bored a lot? Troll a lot? Please don't use your bored time on me and my threads than. Go read the Bible, the Fathers or go see your priest Smiley.
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2013, 05:00:53 AM »


Than please highlight what you consider the best advices to be and bring them here(quotes included). Other than that I would have the impression you are a troll.

Go back and read the posts yourself, in all the threads you've started, not just this one.

I'll say it again: You come here for help, people offer all sorts of advice, and you refuse to take it. It's like you don't want to be helped.

It's funny how you know all the good advice were given to me even quotes from the fathers(wow!) but are not able to even point to a concrete one. Troll alert?

Nope. Just pointing out the obvious. You're making no effort at using what help people here have offered to you.

Perhaps they have offered nothing new. I am sure making a lot more effort than you, if I look at your last posts 90% were trolling and arguments to persons. Bored a lot? Troll a lot? Please don't use your bored time on me and my threads than. Go read the Bible, the Fathers or go see your priest Smiley.

People have offered all sorts of help and advice. It's not their fault you refuse to use it.
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2013, 07:59:58 AM »

FWIW, I was sincerely trying to address your questions until it became clear that you are more interested in pushing your personal agenda and mocking theism in general.  At that point, there really isn't much more to talk about because that topic doesn't really interest me.  If I wanted to do that, I would go to an atheist forum.  Undecided
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2013, 08:05:17 AM »

Quote

Perhaps they have offered nothing new. I am sure making a lot more effort than you, if I look at your last posts 90% were trolling and arguments to persons. Bored a lot? Troll a lot? Please don't use your bored time on me and my threads than. Go read the Bible, the Fathers or go see your priest Smiley.
 
You should take your own advice.
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2013, 08:22:33 AM »

FWIW, I was sincerely trying to address your questions until it became clear that you are more interested in pushing your personal agenda and mocking theism in general.  At that point, there really isn't much more to talk about because that topic doesn't really interest me.  If I wanted to do that, I would go to an atheist forum.  Undecided
I didn't meant you. LBK, podk.... in the most. And I am serious. I am sorry your theism is being tested and it seems to fail. That is what is going on in here. Not here to mock anyone and anything. I am just hurt.

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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2013, 08:28:23 AM »

Quote

Perhaps they have offered nothing new. I am sure making a lot more effort than you, if I look at your last posts 90% were trolling and arguments to persons. Bored a lot? Troll a lot? Please don't use your bored time on me and my threads than. Go read the Bible, the Fathers or go see your priest Smiley.
 
You should take your own advice.

I was being sarcastic. That was his advice.

You realise that to me and to anyone who is losing faith this things lose value : bible, fathers, priests, etc. I already said I read the Bible the fathers, church history, dogma, maybe way too much. I was reading some patristics the other day but I cannot believe their claims anymore and this is not what I think life is. And if I look at their lives they were not immaculated virgins not even after their "pious" times. As regarding priests I already expressed my impossibility to see my priest, not that I had an actual priest-confessor, because I used to confess rarely and to different priests. To me the Christianity of the last century is outdated and already. I always thought this way. I could never fully embrace and entirely believe all the claims of our religion. There are just a lot of things that are very bad. Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2013, 09:43:18 AM »

Quote
I think God is telling me there is no God.

    Yesterday upon the stair
    I met a man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away

    When I came home last night at three
    The man was waiting there for me
    But when I looked around the hall
    I couldn’t see him there at all!
    Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
    Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

    Last night I saw upon the stair
    A little man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away

        (William Mearns, 1899)




How lovely!  Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2013, 09:44:33 AM »

Quote
I think God is telling me there is no God.

    Yesterday upon the stair
    I met a man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away

    When I came home last night at three
    The man was waiting there for me
    But when I looked around the hall
    I couldn’t see him there at all!
    Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
    Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

    Last night I saw upon the stair
    A little man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away

        (William Mearns, 1899)




How lovely!  Smiley

We aim to please.  Wink Kiss
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2013, 09:47:15 AM »

You suffer because you are a sinner or to become better so all justifiable. God exists. Did Theotokos had a life full of comofrts? No, she was living poor.
Evil get more good in their life? Happiness which is empty... I think you stil lthink the hapiness of the world is good. And yes... They feel happy but for thigns that are bad, while we have always to fight. Jesus said that the door is too small and full of hardnesses. The Holy spirit brings hapiness yes. Social hapiness is soemthing we Christians chase not because it ahs no meaning to ourselves. We chase it only for others, not us.
God is perfect, yet while He love us with all our wrongs we still don't liek Him while He is perfect. But God will never become like what we want Him, we will become like what he want us to be.
Bad things= no God, it seems like this I am blind= light does not exist.  I don't think it is true God does not exist.
Well then seems you think you have no sin. And loo kyou want hapiness of the world. Well, God loves you. He is doing a bad job? We do a bad job by doing and saying things as you say now. And yes I ahve turned against God too. How fool I was... . God loves me without end and I turned against Him. But I could not stand all the bad things and turned to Him. Not because He didn't want to help He elt all that but ebcause I left from Him. Awayi could not stand alone nor anyone else can.
If we were puppets then why would we do what we want and not what He wants?
Hmm...  I think I answered to most of your questions posted.


Brother one lst thing if it is for you to see light I hope you see it while I lose it. I would prefer both of us to see it,w  but if it is let it be, Take the light and see God as He is and not as you want Him to be.
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« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2013, 05:16:22 AM »

I'm sure it sounds trite, but you really have no idea what is going on in the long term.  We don't understand why God allows the things to happen that He does.  If we could understand Him, He wouldn't be God.

Brother this is not trite at all. This is about the most vulgar, insulting, and pointless apologetic ever. Congratulations.

Have you learned nothing in my absence? I figured perhaps my light shone too brightly as to blind you to the truth, thus I hid away hoping the dimmer glow of others would have a chance to allow you to see the beginning of the way of out of the newage darkness which surrounds you.

Oh well.

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« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2013, 05:22:01 AM »

Also, what Job said to his wife:

Quote from: Job 2:10
If we have received good at the hand of the Lord, shall we not receive evil?

An honest appraisal of the situation to be sure, but this says more about the quality of character of Job than it is does of his Maker, something which seems to be missed by nearly everyone who reads the book of Job. Job is about as ambivalent portrait of God as there is in the entirety of Scripture.

Not that I will ever see the reply, but what is the general scholarly consensus nowadays when the story of Job took its general shape?

Ever see The Tree of Life? For my money one of the best treatments of the text.

Hope you are well.
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« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2013, 05:32:09 AM »

I think God is telling me there is no God.

Some people just love to tell that to themselves. Ps. 14(13):1.

Seems to be an honest admission of the status of one's relationships to all persons is the first step to any meaningful relationship.

I've sat in cult meeting with many people who often talk about God telling them there ain't no God.

Gotta love the logic of that. Sometimes God does say just that. Many persons do. This is the language of frustration in a relationship, not necessarily the end of it.

God's freedom cannot be chained by the endless demand to be present. Just cause Saints and Goofy 70s-80s Evangelic pr0n in hindsight see God there all the time, doesn't mean it was so when God wasn't.
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« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2013, 06:13:41 PM »

I'm sure it sounds trite, but you really have no idea what is going on in the long term.  We don't understand why God allows the things to happen that He does.  If we could understand Him, He wouldn't be God.

Brother this is not trite at all. This is about the most vulgar, insulting, and pointless apologetic ever. Congratulations.

Have you learned nothing in my absence? I figured perhaps my light shone too brightly as to blind you to the truth, thus I hid away hoping the dimmer glow of others would have a chance to allow you to see the beginning of the way of out of the newage darkness which surrounds you.

Oh well.



welcome back orthonorm.
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« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2013, 08:48:12 PM »

Quote

Perhaps they have offered nothing new. I am sure making a lot more effort than you, if I look at your last posts 90% were trolling and arguments to persons. Bored a lot? Troll a lot? Please don't use your bored time on me and my threads than. Go read the Bible, the Fathers or go see your priest Smiley.
 
You should take your own advice.

I was being sarcastic. That was his advice.

You realise that to me and to anyone who is losing faith this things lose value : bible, fathers, priests, etc. I already said I read the Bible the fathers, church history, dogma, maybe way too much. I was reading some patristics the other day but I cannot believe their claims anymore and this is not what I think life is. And if I look at their lives they were not immaculated virgins not even after their "pious" times. As regarding priests I already expressed my impossibility to see my priest, not that I had an actual priest-confessor, because I used to confess rarely and to different priests. To me the Christianity of the last century is outdated and already. I always thought this way. I could never fully embrace and entirely believe all the claims of our religion. There are just a lot of things that are very bad. Smiley

If you don't like the Christianity of the last century, I would agree with you, having grown up in Pentecostal churches.  Orthodoxy is far more ancient than that.  From your post, it seems that you have never developed a relationship with any priest.  Are you expecting more from the faith than you put in?  Although reading is all well and good, it doesn't replace living the faith every day.  If you aren't willing to deny yourself, pick up your cross (whatever it may be), and follow Christ every moment, I can't justify your lack of faith.  If I kept going down the road I was heading, I would be an atheist.
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« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2013, 04:08:41 PM »

Quote

Perhaps they have offered nothing new. I am sure making a lot more effort than you, if I look at your last posts 90% were trolling and arguments to persons. Bored a lot? Troll a lot? Please don't use your bored time on me and my threads than. Go read the Bible, the Fathers or go see your priest Smiley.
 
You should take your own advice.

I was being sarcastic. That was his advice.

You realise that to me and to anyone who is losing faith this things lose value : bible, fathers, priests, etc. I already said I read the Bible the fathers, church history, dogma, maybe way too much. I was reading some patristics the other day but I cannot believe their claims anymore and this is not what I think life is. And if I look at their lives they were not immaculated virgins not even after their "pious" times. As regarding priests I already expressed my impossibility to see my priest, not that I had an actual priest-confessor, because I used to confess rarely and to different priests. To me the Christianity of the last century is outdated and already. I always thought this way. I could never fully embrace and entirely believe all the claims of our religion. There are just a lot of things that are very bad. Smiley

If you don't like the Christianity of the last century, I would agree with you, having grown up in Pentecostal churches.  Orthodoxy is far more ancient than that.  From your post, it seems that you have never developed a relationship with any priest.  Are you expecting more from the faith than you put in?  Although reading is all well and good, it doesn't replace living the faith every day.  If you aren't willing to deny yourself, pick up your cross (whatever it may be), and follow Christ every moment, I can't justify your lack of faith.  If I kept going down the road I was heading, I would be an atheist.

Yes I expect more. The whole, full and perfect experience of life and the whole Universe, not some exclusivist 'it is true because we say it' club. The world is full with such "messianic" figures as the christian church, as christ, christianity, islam , judaism, etc.

What does it mean to you to pick up your cross and follow Christ in every moment? What will that result in (concrete and palpably speaking) ?
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