This assertion is incorrect. If God is all good, then he will only create good things. What would be the point of having an adversary? To show that he is sovereign? God has no need of that just to prove him so. He is, whether one reckons it or not.
He is God's enemy. The opposer.
If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.
You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as
A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.
Is that possible?
I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.
In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.
I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.
First of all, thanks, for your calm reply.
Please realize that the scripture can be interpreted in many ways, some doing so by cherry picking, and some without proper guidance. What you see, may not be the same with others. It then comes down to what is reasonable interpretation. But we need not get down to hermeneutics, unless we have to.
In the beginning, there is no Devil. Perhaps you forgot about this, in Ezekiel 28 he was described as
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Notice that he was described as having full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. This isn't a description of what is evil. Moreover, he was the anointed cherub that covers. As I see it, since there were cherubim, then among them he was "the". His nearness with God is so that he covers. This is really, really close. He was perfect in his ways.
He became the evil when iniquity was found in him.
Does this clarify what is the relationship of Lucifer with God before the former became evil?
Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
But "evil" here is open to other translation such as calamity which NASB used. In any case, we have to be careful how we read text, and shouldn't take things as it appeared.
Since God created all things good, the covering cherub then became evil, not from God but as the fathers had put it by deprivation of what is good. It is not God who deprived of what is good, on the contrary, he gave him things that are good. Rather, it is Lucifer himself who rejected the goodness of his state and relationship with God, for in Ezekiel again,
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
So here, we see him as himself being the source of his own corruption, and not God, for angels have free will, just as we. Makes sense?
I knew that according to Christianity Satan was "Lucifer" and angel of light. But what is his relation with God now? How does Satan relate with God?
Can God have an enemy, an adversary, unless he wants to?
If A comes to B in a friendly manner, and B rejected that and started opposing A, and started regarding A as B's enemy, did A cause B to be A's enemy? Yes or no?
Except that this A is the All Mighty , All Powerfull and All Knowledgeable God. God cannot have an enemy, unless he chooses so. God could destroy the devil in the next second he chose to rebel and "cut the evil right from its roots" so that is why I am saying that God cannot have an enemy unless he wants to. Or are you saying that the devil is a heavier stone than God could life(crush)?
God didn't chose to have enemy. The possibility is there to have enemy because of free will. What we do see is an agent can turn what is good into an evil.
God could destroy Satan immediately after he chose to rebel, we might suppose, but I could not presume that since I don't have the knowledge of God, and neither you. Do we know where it actually started? If it's in the garden of Eden, then perhaps it would do more harm than good since man was already dragged into it.
Suppose Satan was destroyed immediately. Suppose even when warned of God not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil man ate, where are we then? It would be unfair not to destroy man, right? since God destroyed Satan immediately after he rebelled. What then comes of God? He would then be considered a failure because he started something that he could not finish, and in frustration destroyed his creation. Not very wise, isn't it?
No, it doesn't. Free will presupposes that one can choose to do and not to do. It is neutral in the face of good or evil. Evil will then only exist after rejecting what is good. Since God was before all creation, that is, goodness has preexistence, evil then existed after.
And where did Satan drawed his iniquity from? Wasn't Satan created from God and doesn't Satan still have the essence of God in him?I already answered that from the previous post. As an individual, Satan, like us, has freedom to choose. He could remain in his state, but like other angels who went out with him abandoned where they used to be, i.e. being in the presence of God.
That means that evil pre-existed satan as he had evil as an option.
Than there is no evil ontologically.
Well, there is since it is embodied now in the being of Satan. While a thing is a possibility we cannot say it has an ontological existence.
Superman doesn't exist just because someone made a movie.
There is life, there is also God's creative power. But they are not God's essence. I don't think we can even begin to grasp God's very life. What we see are just energies of God, not his essence.
Perhaps, you need to clarify your statements. How can he have God's essence? If he has God's essence then he is God, and not a created being. What do you mean by having God's essence? God's goodness? That would be absurd given that his activities consist of opposing what is good.
Isn't life God's essence? Isn't the essence of God that of which all creation is made?
What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.
The energies of God is God, but his essence is not his energies.
Yes, that is correct.
If no how could he still be alive?He is "dead", just as sinners are, being separated from God.
I see sinners still breathing, moving, etc, and having that something to return to God, the image of God in them, not being entirely evil in their essence.
They are alive than.
Yes, they are alive physically; they are also spiritually dead since they are separated from God who is life.
You are confusing things, and that made you argument faulty. The demons have will of their own. Their will is their own, not God's. Do not confuse them.
Isn't God the one that sustains all life, and LIFE itself and isn't all creation emerging from Him being part of Him and His doing, having His essence which is Life as the Scriptures say that God is Life? The Logos is the truth the way and the life.. The life of men.. etc.. God sustains life in that he provides what we need to live. As for angels, like men, it will continue existing, whether they are good or evil. Life is given, not for destruction but to live. Again, it is absurd that God would give life with a purpose of destroying it. In Calvinism doctrine, yes. But as to the teaching handed down by the apostles, no.
I don't care about Calvinism and if you mean predestination, destiny, etc learn that this controversy predates calvinism with more than half of millennium. It was mostly consumed in Gaul(France today). Isn't God the source of all life? "In him we live, we move and have our being" (Cretan proverb + Scripture + Paul) . So the demons must also live move and have their being in God, who if life. And according to that it follows that the being of God is also evil. A=B , B=C, C=A.
Does anything happen without God's will and permission?
There are things that God permits, but are not according to his will. God does not violate one's free will. Otherwise, it is no longer free.
To reprise, the source of evil is in depriving one's self of what is good. Rejecting what is good effected what is evil in one's person.
If the Devil still has this divine essence in him how can he be the very incarnation and entity of evil,pure evil,If God is entirely good,benevolent ? What is evil according to you and where does it originate from? Can something exist without God who is the source and support of all creation, and as the Scriptures say if he takes back his support they will perish?(If we are bragging and battleling in Scripture, note to LBK)Already answered this. Please re-read my previous post.
Where cause I do not see where you touched this.
And what is Good?
God is good. God's creation is good. God's plan is good. Obeying God's commandment is good.
You know these, so I'm not sure why you even asked.