The Devil

[TheTrisagion]

Evil does not "exist" as an independent entity.  Evil is a distortion or absence of good.  Similarly a vacuum does not "exist" as an independent entity, it is simply the non-existence of matter. Evil ceases to exist as you fill it with good just as a vacuum ceases to exist when you fill it with matter.

[edati]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

First of all, thanks, for your calm reply.

Please realize that the scripture can be interpreted in many ways, some doing so by cherry picking, and some without proper guidance. What you see, may not be the same with others. It then comes down to what is reasonable interpretation. But we need not get down to hermeneutics, unless we have to.

In the beginning, there is no Devil. Perhaps you forgot about this, in Ezekiel 28 he was described as

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice that he was described as having full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. This isn't a description of what is evil. Moreover, he was the anointed cherub that covers. As I see it, since there were cherubim, then among them he was "the". His nearness with God is so that he covers. This is really, really close. He was perfect in his ways.

He became the evil when iniquity was found in him.

Does this clarify what is the relationship of Lucifer with God before the former became evil?

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

But "evil" here is open to other translation such as calamity which NASB used. In any case, we have to be careful how we read text, and shouldn't take things as it appeared.

Since God created all things good, the covering cherub then became evil, not from God but as the fathers had put it by deprivation of what is good. It is not God who deprived of what is good, on the contrary, he gave him things that are good. Rather, it is Lucifer himself who rejected the goodness of his state and relationship with God, for in Ezekiel again,

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So here, we see him as himself being the source of his own corruption, and not God, for angels have free will, just as we. Makes sense?

I knew that according to Christianity Satan was "Lucifer" and angel of light. But what is his relation with God now? How does Satan relate with God?

He is God's enemy. The opposer.

Can God have an enemy, an adversary, unless he wants to?

This assertion is incorrect. If God is all good, then he will only create good things. What would be the point of having an adversary? To show that he is sovereign? God has no need of that just to prove him so. He is, whether one reckons it or not.

If A comes to B in a friendly manner, and B rejected that and started opposing A, and started regarding A as B's enemy, did A cause B to be A's enemy? Yes or no?
 

And where did Satan drawed his iniquity from? Wasn't Satan created from God and doesn't Satan still have the essence of God in him?

I already answered that from the previous post. As an individual, Satan, like us, has freedom to choose. He could remain in his state, but like other angels who went out with him abandoned where they used to be, i.e. being in the presence of God.

That means that evil pre-existed satan as he had evil as an option.

No, it doesn't. Free will presupposes that one can choose to do and not to do. It is neutral in the face of good or evil. Evil will then only exist after rejecting what is good. Since God was before all creation, that is, goodness has preexistence, evil then existed after.

Perhaps, you need to clarify your statements. How can he have God's essence? If he has God's essence then he is God, and not a created being. What do you mean by having God's essence? God's goodness? That would be absurd given that his activities consist of opposing what is good.

Isn't life God's essence? Isn't the essence of God that of which all creation is made?

There is life, there is also God's creative power. But they are not God's essence. I don't think we can even begin to grasp God's very life. What we see are just energies of God, not his essence.

If no how could he still be alive?

He is "dead", just as sinners are, being separated from God.

I see sinners still breathing, moving, etc, and having that something to return to God, the image of God in them, not being entirely evil in their essence.

Yes, that is correct.

Isn't God the one that sustains all life, and LIFE itself and isn't all creation emerging from Him being part of Him and His doing, having His essence which is Life as the Scriptures say that God is Life? The Logos is the truth the way and the life.. The life of men.. etc..

God sustains life in that he provides what we need to live. As for angels, like men, it will continue existing, whether they are good or evil. Life is given, not for destruction but to live. Again, it is absurd that God would give life with a purpose of destroying it. In Calvinism doctrine, yes. But as to the teaching handed down by the apostles, no.

I don't care about Calvinism and if you mean predestination, destiny, etc learn that this controversy predates calvinism with more than half of millennium. It was mostly consumed in Gaul(France today). Isn't God the source of all life? "In him we live, we move and have our being" (Cretan proverb + Scripture + Paul) . So the demons must also live move and have their being in God, who if life. And according to that it follows that the being of God is also evil. A=B , B=C, C=A.

You are confusing things, and that made you argument faulty. The demons have will of their own. Their will is their own, not God's. Do not confuse them.

If the Devil still has this divine essence in him how can he be the very incarnation and entity of evil,pure evil,If God is entirely good,benevolent ? What is evil according to you and where does it originate from? Can something exist without God who is the source and support of all creation, and as the Scriptures say if he takes back his support they will perish?(If we are bragging and battleling in Scripture, note to LBK)

Already answered this. Please re-read my previous post.

Where cause I do not see where you touched this.

To reprise, the source of evil is in depriving one's self of what is good. Rejecting what is good effected what is evil in one's person.

[lovetzatziki]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

First of all, thanks, for your calm reply.

Please realize that the scripture can be interpreted in many ways, some doing so by cherry picking, and some without proper guidance. What you see, may not be the same with others. It then comes down to what is reasonable interpretation. But we need not get down to hermeneutics, unless we have to.

In the beginning, there is no Devil. Perhaps you forgot about this, in Ezekiel 28 he was described as

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice that he was described as having full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. This isn't a description of what is evil. Moreover, he was the anointed cherub that covers. As I see it, since there were cherubim, then among them he was "the". His nearness with God is so that he covers. This is really, really close. He was perfect in his ways.

He became the evil when iniquity was found in him.

Does this clarify what is the relationship of Lucifer with God before the former became evil?

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

But "evil" here is open to other translation such as calamity which NASB used. In any case, we have to be careful how we read text, and shouldn't take things as it appeared.

Since God created all things good, the covering cherub then became evil, not from God but as the fathers had put it by deprivation of what is good. It is not God who deprived of what is good, on the contrary, he gave him things that are good. Rather, it is Lucifer himself who rejected the goodness of his state and relationship with God, for in Ezekiel again,

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So here, we see him as himself being the source of his own corruption, and not God, for angels have free will, just as we. Makes sense?

I knew that according to Christianity Satan was "Lucifer" and angel of light. But what is his relation with God now? How does Satan relate with God?

He is God's enemy. The opposer.

Can God have an enemy, an adversary, unless he wants to?

This assertion is incorrect. If God is all good, then he will only create good things. What would be the point of having an adversary? To show that he is sovereign? God has no need of that just to prove him so. He is, whether one reckons it or not.

If A comes to B in a friendly manner, and B rejected that and started opposing A, and started regarding A as B's enemy, did A cause B to be A's enemy? Yes or no?

Except that this A is the All Mighty , All Powerfull and All Knowledgeable God. God cannot have an enemy, unless he chooses so. God could destroy the devil in the next second he chose to rebel and "cut the evil right from its roots" so that is why I am saying that God cannot have an enemy unless he wants to. Or are you saying that the devil is a heavier stone than God could life(crush)?

And where did Satan drawed his iniquity from? Wasn't Satan created from God and doesn't Satan still have the essence of God in him?

I already answered that from the previous post. As an individual, Satan, like us, has freedom to choose. He could remain in his state, but like other angels who went out with him abandoned where they used to be, i.e. being in the presence of God.

That means that evil pre-existed satan as he had evil as an option.

No, it doesn't. Free will presupposes that one can choose to do and not to do. It is neutral in the face of good or evil. Evil will then only exist after rejecting what is good. Since God was before all creation, that is, goodness has preexistence, evil then existed after.

Than there is no evil ontologically.

Perhaps, you need to clarify your statements. How can he have God's essence? If he has God's essence then he is God, and not a created being. What do you mean by having God's essence? God's goodness? That would be absurd given that his activities consist of opposing what is good.

Isn't life God's essence? Isn't the essence of God that of which all creation is made?

There is life, there is also God's creative power. But they are not God's essence. I don't think we can even begin to grasp God's very life. What we see are just energies of God, not his essence.

[/quote]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

If no how could he still be alive?

He is "dead", just as sinners are, being separated from God.

I see sinners still breathing, moving, etc, and having that something to return to God, the image of God in them, not being entirely evil in their essence.

Yes, that is correct. [/quote]

They are alive than.

Isn't God the one that sustains all life, and LIFE itself and isn't all creation emerging from Him being part of Him and His doing, having His essence which is Life as the Scriptures say that God is Life? The Logos is the truth the way and the life.. The life of men.. etc..

God sustains life in that he provides what we need to live. As for angels, like men, it will continue existing, whether they are good or evil. Life is given, not for destruction but to live. Again, it is absurd that God would give life with a purpose of destroying it. In Calvinism doctrine, yes. But as to the teaching handed down by the apostles, no.

I don't care about Calvinism and if you mean predestination, destiny, etc learn that this controversy predates calvinism with more than half of millennium. It was mostly consumed in Gaul(France today). Isn't God the source of all life? "In him we live, we move and have our being" (Cretan proverb + Scripture + Paul) . So the demons must also live move and have their being in God, who if life. And according to that it follows that the being of God is also evil. A=B , B=C, C=A.

You are confusing things, and that made you argument faulty. The demons have will of their own. Their will is their own, not God's. Do not confuse them.

Does anything happen without God's will and permission?

If the Devil still has this divine essence in him how can he be the very incarnation and entity of evil,pure evil,If God is entirely good,benevolent ? What is evil according to you and where does it originate from? Can something exist without God who is the source and support of all creation, and as the Scriptures say if he takes back his support they will perish?(If we are bragging and battleling in Scripture, note to LBK)

Already answered this. Please re-read my previous post.

Where cause I do not see where you touched this.

To reprise, the source of evil is in depriving one's self of what is good. Rejecting what is good effected what is evil in one's person.

And what is Good?

[lovetzatziki]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

The fruit of God is the world. Good and evil exist alike in the world like any other contrasts and adversities : day and night, summer and winter, hot and cold, north pole south pole, feminine masculine, death birth, etc.

[TheTrisagion]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

The fruit of God is the world. Good and evil exist alike in the world like any other contrasts and adversities : day and night, summer and winter, hot and cold, north pole south pole, feminine masculine, death birth, etc.

Nope.

[lovetzatziki]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

The fruit of God is the world. Good and evil exist alike in the world like any other contrasts and adversities : day and night, summer and winter, hot and cold, north pole south pole, feminine masculine, death birth, etc.

Nope.

You must live in your own world than .

[LBK]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

[lovetzatziki]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

[LBK]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

Is what you do "you"? Or is what you are "you"?

[lovetzatziki]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

Is what you do "you"? Or is what you are "you"?

God is not a man.

[LBK]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

Is what you do "you"? Or is what you are "you"?

God is not a man.

Actually, Christ is God and Man.

[Mor Ephrem]

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

Hi,

I'm sorry that you're going through such a tough time in your life.  I don't know what exactly it is that is causing you so much anguish, so I can't exactly say I know how you feel, but there are a lot of us who are struggling with difficulties at the moment, myself very much included.  Prayers!  

You've started a number of threads on very difficult subjects, and you don't seem satisfied with any of the responses you've received.  In another thread, you asked a few questions and concluded with "Less biblical quotations and more conversation".  Theoretical discussions about aspects of theology aren't going to help you get out of your rut (and I say that as someone who likes such things).  At best, they'll give you some information you may or may not find useful or be in a place to accept readily, and at worst your personal anguish will poke holes in and deflate everything until all you have left is your pain.  

Times of personal struggle are times to return to basics.  Open up to a trusted friend(s), a priest or monastic, someone and share with them your problems openly.  Even if you don't get "the answer" to all your problems, love and acceptance will take you far.  Keep your spiritual life simple but consistent.  Eat well and walk outside for at least thirty minutes a day, preferably in silence.  Do things you enjoy.  Don't focus on your problems or on theoretical matters, just focus on staying close to God.  Talk to him.  Complain to him.    But stay close to and hold on to the Lord.  

That doesn't sound like it will do any good, but the other stuff definitely won't help.  You may have to wait, be patient, and struggle valiantly, but you are less likely to drive yourself crazy if you do as much as you can to make things simple and keep things simple when life becomes complex.

[TheTrisagion]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

The fruit of God is the world. Good and evil exist alike in the world like any other contrasts and adversities : day and night, summer and winter, hot and cold, north pole south pole, feminine masculine, death birth, etc.

Nope.

You must live in your own world than .

You statement demonstrates the fallacy of equivocation. The two are not equivalent or contrasts.  One is the absence of the other. It is like saying the opposite of a bird is the non-existence of a bird.

[lovetzatziki]

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

Hi,

I'm sorry that you're going through such a tough time in your life.  I don't know what exactly it is that is causing you so much anguish, so I can't exactly say I know how you feel, but there are a lot of us who are struggling with difficulties at the moment, myself very much included.  Prayers!  

You've started a number of threads on very difficult subjects, and you don't seem satisfied with any of the responses you've received.  In another thread, you asked a few questions and concluded with "Less biblical quotations and more conversation".  Theoretical discussions about aspects of theology aren't going to help you get out of your rut (and I say that as someone who likes such things).  At best, they'll give you some information you may or may not find useful or be in a place to accept readily, and at worst your personal anguish will poke holes in and deflate everything until all you have left is your pain.  

Times of personal struggle are times to return to basics.  Open up to a trusted friend(s), a priest or monastic, someone and share with them your problems openly.  Even if you don't get "the answer" to all your problems, love and acceptance will take you far.  Keep your spiritual life simple but consistent.  Eat well and walk outside for at least thirty minutes a day, preferably in silence.  Do things you enjoy.  Don't focus on your problems or on theoretical matters, just focus on staying close to God.  Talk to him.  Complain to him.    But stay close to and hold on to the Lord.  

That doesn't sound like it will do any good, but the other stuff definitely won't help.  You may have to wait, be patient, and struggle valiantly, but you are less likely to drive yourself crazy if you do as much as you can to make things simple and keep things simple when life becomes complex.

We function differently. To me it helps a lot to discuss theological discussions. To me they are more than just theory. They are living things of my life. What I write is mostly what I also lived and perceived of the world, theology, psychology , God, etc, even studying many philosophies. I am recovering right now, but would still like to know this issues. To me if Christianity does not know this issues , its own issues and claims than it is false. I already said, I feel Christianity and Churchism have long been refuted. Society has developed a lot with democracy and secularism in the last houndreds years since it ditched the absolutisms of religion. To me that says quite a few things. I am currently in an atheistic country and things seem well for them, economically , environmentally, etc.. They were declared the happiest people in the world.(yes they the atheists)

As I said things are clarified to me as I have theological discussions. Cause I know a lot of things theologically and spiritually and they are all a mess in my head, but as I discuss them they come back and harmonise each other. As some would put it is always better to put things on paper, esspecially thoughts, etc..

[TheTrisagion]

How exactly does one "grade" happiness?  I am happy when I get chicken wings and beer for dinner.  I am sad when I get a stupid spinach salad for dinner.  How does my faith affect that? How does one grade and compile that data? 

[lovetzatziki]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

The fruit of God is the world. Good and evil exist alike in the world like any other contrasts and adversities : day and night, summer and winter, hot and cold, north pole south pole, feminine masculine, death birth, etc.

Nope.

You must live in your own world than .

You statement demonstrates the fallacy of equivocation. The two are not equivalent or contrasts.  One is the absence of the other. It is like saying the opposite of a bird is the non-existence of a bird.

And yours the belief in myths and fairytales. The oldest accounts of the world, historical, arhictectural, philosophical show that the world has been in adversity since forever and that this adversities coexisted together. Our raportation is reality, not fairytales. Besides is hard to match your fairytales into biology and geography. There are a lot of animals who are carnivores for one, so death must of always existed at least in the animal reign.

[TheTrisagion]

Ummm, if you have read any of my other posts in other threads, you would know that I am an evolutionist, so the concept of physical death being in existance since the start of life does not conflict with my faith at all.  If you would like to point out what "myths and fairytales" I believe in, I would be happy to discuss them with you.

[Rambam]

Who is the Devil? Is the Devil real? How do you know that the Devil is real?

Wow, I have no business posting here -- best to leave it to folks who are smarter than I am -- but I saw this tremendous video a week ago: a rabbi talking about  the role of Satan in the World.  Seems like it fits here. Samael, one of the archangels who plays "the accuser" role (or ha shetan, Satan, in Hebrew), is responsible for testing people in order to bring them back to God. It's a long watch, but it's compelling -- and yeah, he talks about the Gaza war (which will turn a lot of folks off), but in the first 30 minutes, he sets out the foundation for how we should think about Satan generally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJrfoERrqI

I know, I know -- we don't care what Judaism thinks -- but my priest says that as long as you stay within the parameters of the Church creed, it's OK to think about and debate this other stuff.

Feel free to flame away!

[edati]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

First of all, thanks, for your calm reply.

Please realize that the scripture can be interpreted in many ways, some doing so by cherry picking, and some without proper guidance. What you see, may not be the same with others. It then comes down to what is reasonable interpretation. But we need not get down to hermeneutics, unless we have to.

In the beginning, there is no Devil. Perhaps you forgot about this, in Ezekiel 28 he was described as

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice that he was described as having full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. This isn't a description of what is evil. Moreover, he was the anointed cherub that covers. As I see it, since there were cherubim, then among them he was "the". His nearness with God is so that he covers. This is really, really close. He was perfect in his ways.

He became the evil when iniquity was found in him.

Does this clarify what is the relationship of Lucifer with God before the former became evil?

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

But "evil" here is open to other translation such as calamity which NASB used. In any case, we have to be careful how we read text, and shouldn't take things as it appeared.

Since God created all things good, the covering cherub then became evil, not from God but as the fathers had put it by deprivation of what is good. It is not God who deprived of what is good, on the contrary, he gave him things that are good. Rather, it is Lucifer himself who rejected the goodness of his state and relationship with God, for in Ezekiel again,

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So here, we see him as himself being the source of his own corruption, and not God, for angels have free will, just as we. Makes sense?

I knew that according to Christianity Satan was "Lucifer" and angel of light. But what is his relation with God now? How does Satan relate with God?

He is God's enemy. The opposer.

Can God have an enemy, an adversary, unless he wants to?

This assertion is incorrect. If God is all good, then he will only create good things. What would be the point of having an adversary? To show that he is sovereign? God has no need of that just to prove him so. He is, whether one reckons it or not.

If A comes to B in a friendly manner, and B rejected that and started opposing A, and started regarding A as B's enemy, did A cause B to be A's enemy? Yes or no?

Except that this A is the All Mighty , All Powerfull and All Knowledgeable God. God cannot have an enemy, unless he chooses so. God could destroy the devil in the next second he chose to rebel and "cut the evil right from its roots" so that is why I am saying that God cannot have an enemy unless he wants to. Or are you saying that the devil is a heavier stone than God could life(crush)?

God didn't chose to have enemy. The possibility is there to have enemy because of free will. What we do see is an agent can turn what is good into an evil.

God could destroy Satan immediately after he chose to rebel, we might suppose, but I could not presume that since I don't have the knowledge of God, and neither you. Do we know where it actually started? If it's in the garden of Eden, then perhaps it would do more harm than good since man was already dragged into it.

Suppose Satan was destroyed immediately. Suppose even when warned of God not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil man ate, where are we then? It would be unfair not to destroy man, right? since God destroyed Satan immediately after he rebelled. What then comes of God? He would then be considered a failure because he started something that he could not finish, and in frustration destroyed his creation. Not very wise, isn't it?

And where did Satan drawed his iniquity from? Wasn't Satan created from God and doesn't Satan still have the essence of God in him?

I already answered that from the previous post. As an individual, Satan, like us, has freedom to choose. He could remain in his state, but like other angels who went out with him abandoned where they used to be, i.e. being in the presence of God.

That means that evil pre-existed satan as he had evil as an option.

No, it doesn't. Free will presupposes that one can choose to do and not to do. It is neutral in the face of good or evil. Evil will then only exist after rejecting what is good. Since God was before all creation, that is, goodness has preexistence, evil then existed after.

Than there is no evil ontologically.

Well, there is since it is embodied now in the being of Satan. While a thing is a possibility we cannot say it has an ontological existence.

Superman doesn't exist just because someone made a movie.

Perhaps, you need to clarify your statements. How can he have God's essence? If he has God's essence then he is God, and not a created being. What do you mean by having God's essence? God's goodness? That would be absurd given that his activities consist of opposing what is good.

Isn't life God's essence? Isn't the essence of God that of which all creation is made?

There is life, there is also God's creative power. But they are not God's essence. I don't think we can even begin to grasp God's very life. What we see are just energies of God, not his essence.

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

The energies of God is God, but his essence is not his energies.

If no how could he still be alive?

He is "dead", just as sinners are, being separated from God.

I see sinners still breathing, moving, etc, and having that something to return to God, the image of God in them, not being entirely evil in their essence.

Yes, that is correct.

They are alive than.

Yes, they are alive physically; they are also spiritually dead since they are separated from God who is life.

Isn't God the one that sustains all life, and LIFE itself and isn't all creation emerging from Him being part of Him and His doing, having His essence which is Life as the Scriptures say that God is Life? The Logos is the truth the way and the life.. The life of men.. etc..

God sustains life in that he provides what we need to live. As for angels, like men, it will continue existing, whether they are good or evil. Life is given, not for destruction but to live. Again, it is absurd that God would give life with a purpose of destroying it. In Calvinism doctrine, yes. But as to the teaching handed down by the apostles, no.

I don't care about Calvinism and if you mean predestination, destiny, etc learn that this controversy predates calvinism with more than half of millennium. It was mostly consumed in Gaul(France today). Isn't God the source of all life? "In him we live, we move and have our being" (Cretan proverb + Scripture + Paul) . So the demons must also live move and have their being in God, who if life. And according to that it follows that the being of God is also evil. A=B , B=C, C=A.

You are confusing things, and that made you argument faulty. The demons have will of their own. Their will is their own, not God's. Do not confuse them.

Does anything happen without God's will and permission?

There are things that God permits, but are not according to his will. God does not violate one's free will. Otherwise, it is no longer free.

If the Devil still has this divine essence in him how can he be the very incarnation and entity of evil,pure evil,If God is entirely good,benevolent ? What is evil according to you and where does it originate from? Can something exist without God who is the source and support of all creation, and as the Scriptures say if he takes back his support they will perish?(If we are bragging and battleling in Scripture, note to LBK)

Already answered this. Please re-read my previous post.

Where cause I do not see where you touched this.

To reprise, the source of evil is in depriving one's self of what is good. Rejecting what is good effected what is evil in one's person.

And what is Good?

God is good. God's creation is good. God's plan is good. Obeying God's commandment is good.

You know these, so I'm not sure why you even asked.

[Nikolaostheservant]

If you know you are real, and you are a separate entity than God, why do you have a hard time believing the devil is a separate individual?  Why would you even consider him to be God?

Nonsense.

What God does, His actions, in the end are all in order to bring us closer to Him, and for our own salvation....even if we don't see it that way at the time.

The devil tempts us daily, trying to get us to stumble, he sews anger, discontent, jealousy, he whispers gossip in our ears, and makes us doubt not only ourselves, but, others.....

Why?

In order to drive us further from God.

Polar opposites.

So even the worst evil is made to bring us closer to God? Than who is the architecht of all this "evil" if not God?

I was not speaking of separateness but about being part of God. Isn't it God ALL, THE WHOLE and more than it?

My question to you is how do you know who and when is the Devil and that he exists as an Entity? How do you know he is real? Tell me.

Sounds like you have deeper issues than whether or not the Devil is real.  If you don't believe Jesus is real, then why believe in the existence of the Devil?

The story of Jesus can be seen as a narcisist and unnecessary act. After all God is God if exists, he has no limitations. Always look at the results. How did that influence the world and made it a better place ? It just put God on the spot, and bring more fear and terror to people, especially by the idea of hell and hell eternal and other errors. Perhaps there is more to this world than 'narrow-minded, hypocrite and violent' Christianity (before you jump on my head I did not totally excluded the possibility of the existence of a good Christianity or the totall exclusion of Christianity from truth).. I used this epithetes because this was the Christianity of most fathers, a narrow-minded , violent Apologetics with shades of hypocrisy always hidden under the cover of 'the Church' , and Church grandomania. Perhaps the Christian story was misread all this years (there are many branches of Christianity today that consider Jesus just a main man, who achieved his potential and etc, hell there is even a branch called Atheistic Christianity). So you see even being Atheistic I am covered as a Christian , of having faith in Christ (being historical or not) and picking and choosing(in the end everybody picks and chooses from the Bible as in to how to interpret certain events). The bible is not the Epigraph of Ethicism and Morality. Esspecially if not read and understood in a most non-literal manner. My idea is.. perhaps there is no God.. and perhaps no Devil.. One thing is sure If A(God) exists than B(the Devil) does not have to exist. The existence of the Devil is just engrafting and bolding more the concept and idea of evil, in a such big manner as to entithise it. While doing this it also creates all sort of desperate religious psychotic states of fear, cowardice, desperateness and paranoia. This is why I think the Devil is not true. Or if he is, than God must also be evil or at least perverted into seing evil fulfilled. But perhaps evil is not evil, in the paranoic, extreme and exaggerated way religious has made us conceptualise it. Perhaps all this religious concepts (evil,the devil, hell,etc) are wrong. They only create and induce mental fear and paranoia. I am sorry I am not quite seing that loving God everyone is preaching about at this moment in my life. A lot of bad things have happened to me, most of them very strange(feeling like being directly inflicted by God to me). Like what could go wrong did. In a Christian Orthodox mentality(brought about) the things that happened in my life drove me nuts, paranoic and psychotic. My suffering is more bitter as I see those who causing me purpoited injustice (in the extremist christian view they seem like devils or worse, but I am beggining to think that this is the way life just is, this is the way people are) feeling happy afterwards and perhaps even rejoicing, calming and feeling great(after big lawlessness, according to the Bible God should punish them and struck them or something, instead I see myself going lower and they higher and in dementia). Having all sort of thoughts as to who God is, why is he allowing that and MORE why is he doing this great unjustice repaying their evil with good and my goodness with evil. So this is where I am right now. I am in a foreign country currently. I knew it was trouble with the person who brought me here, from the times I was in my own country. I was very stressed about it and nervous, and one night before I left I had a dream, like a vision it calmed me entirely in an instant. I saw the blue skyes and the with clouds and upside a Church, I felt like it was the greatest holiday there existed there. Instant peace and calmness came upon me in an instant. I took that as a divine sign to go that everything will be good. Just that night I had decided to not go anymore. Anyway after all this bad things occured to me, I am also having bad dreams, that in the dream dictionary mean failure, dissaster, pain, suffering etc. Dreams that also mark me (but dreams can also be the result of represed emotions so I am taking them non-theistically to be just that).. Where I am now.. I am inclining towards atheism and disbelief in God, at least in some personal christian way. To me it's better than an unjust and evil God. I keep looking and looking and I don't seem to find what I did to deserve this and that makes me more depressed(of course if I think with a theistic head). So all my theism is causing me more and more pain and suffering. My theist perception of this things are causing me all this. So here I am giving theism one more chance. Explain this things to me. A lot of people said talk to your priest. Well my priest is 1500 kms away.

Humm, i guess i will answer what i can from my personal experience.
I was (am) like you in the sence of everything going wrong. EVGERYTHING! if i had a choice or right or left i would take the wrong choice. one day gicing someone a ride somwhere i expressed to them my problemand view of the cause. p told them everything always goes wrong and i said i must be great entertainment for GOd. he must be laughing away at me misforrtone. i then said why does god do this to me.
 
and the person said in a loud and kinda agitated tone.

its not god...its the devil!

it was like they hit me in the head with a brick, suddenly it all made sence, of course, why did i not see it. why did i blame god for everything. why did i not even consider the devil causing all this and laughing at my misofrtum.

the answer is because i was entangled with bad things in my life and i was in the clutches of the devil who was able to make me no only suffer but to blame GOd as the cause of suffering in my life!  

this was a turning point in my life, going closer to god and back to my Orthodoxy of my childhood.

dont have much time to answer but also take into consideration that the posibility exists that you cannot comprihend what God is doing. like a mentaly retarted person will never be able to understand certain concepts. ie: a five dollar bill is worth more then a 1 dollar bill.

The thing is... yeah... I said it is the Devil , that doesn't do it for me.. the question then is why does the devil (is allowed to) have so much power. Why does God let him do all this things? If we look in the book of Job Satan is asking permission from God to do things and God grants him. It is like God and Satan are making cosmical bets about us, and playing games. Look what poor Job had to suffer just for the entertainment of some game/bet between God and Satan. And in the end he also had to suffer the triumphalist speech of God on top of that. It is God that allows and stands with all this, according to our doctrines and the Bible, no? Satan just looks like that evil kid with a dumb or evil parent that let's him do all the disasters that come to his mind. Perhaps God is even himself evil or perverted, other than that why would he do such things and put up with them, more why do this things that also hurt my soul. I feel like I've been in the Dark Night most of my life, always being put down by God or whosoever, not being able to feel and think right and etc.. So you see in the end is all God's fault, because he allows all this and nothing happens without his accord. Why did God put up with all this evil from all times if he is not evil aswell.. But perhaps... just perhaps this ontologycal and entithised religious evil does not exist and it is just a psychological disorder brought by religion. I'm sorry but if God is as Christianity says, than he is to blame for absolutely all, or he is limited and not all powerful. In the later case I would trouble more if I was a Christian.. Who knows maybe one day Satan(the other God) can defeat your God or cause him harm. Maybe your God is an emotional and psychological wreck.. Just look at ur bible.. Easily harmed, offended, causing harm and commending crimes.. The funny thing is that his people in the bible always lost and was worthless and insignificant on the map of the world. This should make you wonder about the gods of the other peoples that were really great and profitable in time... because this God seems inferior to them.. To me the old God of Christianity is obsolete. Old Christianity has long been refuted, in my eyes. Only the fools the blind , the immatures and the ignorants still buy it. All this stuff about God, evil, hell, the devil, all this Extremist Grandisment  Churchism, and other Medieval superstitions. Just look at the people who are practicant Christians. No offence they are the lowest of society. That is not my goal. That is not who I want to be in life. Looking also to contemporan saints I have nothing to say but the same things. This people look like crazy, psychologically disordered, a bit schizophrenic.  I don't want to be rude.. No wonder they see devils and fight with them and stuff..  I wonder why NONE of the prophecy of this so regarded saints and esteemed Christians never came to be? Esspecially of those on our contemporan times and before them... There were some monks in the 19th century who predicated the end. None of the dates fit.. Guess what we are still here.. Reality refutes this people and all their religion and life's devotion.

About the works of the devil and the works of God, as you said lately I don't know who is who( though I am trying to recover from this theism. I opened a thread called "The deeds of the devil and the deeds of God" . You are invited to write there. I hope i'll see no more of this violent, rude and agressive ignorance hiding(like LBK and podk...) oops I mean apologetics.

no sure but it sounds like you have your mind made up already? i just hope its not 100% yet and that oukeep looking.
We on this forum here are very analitical, wqanting to debat everything and to be given concret proof of a situation regarding god or religion. i have said it before, thats not how it works. Faith is where its at, it is the true test for us when we die.

also id like to touch on the point i made regarding us not being able to understand god. this is how i belive it could work, here is an example. the child wants to go out and playin the yard. the parent will not let the child go out in the yard to play cause he knows wolves have been seen in the area. But, you see the child is only 4 yrs old and realy cant understand why the parent will not let him play outside.
that is how i view us and god, we are not biologically able to understand/comprihend what god knows. how do we know that god did not allow sept 11 to happen caus if it did not then something even more deadly would happen?

i just let gods will be as it is and i dont try to hard to understand him, but yet i know he has our best intrest in mind like th parent and child who want to play outside. thats just me.

also i dont pretend as im so valuable and importand a being that god needs to inform me of his reasoning>

[Justin Kissel]

I remember when I believe in a "symbolic satan" concept. Good times.  Easier to swallow as well.   

[TheTrisagion]

What is the big deal with the devil?  He is just an angel who went bad.  Everybody gets all crazy and tries to blame everything on him.

[Justin Kissel]

There are demons screwing with your mind right now when you say things like that. They're in the room with you as I type this.

Or so the belief says.

[TheTrisagion]

*swats demon*

I squished one.

[Justin Kissel]

Wormwood just reported you to Screwtape.

[lovetzatziki]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

Is what you do "you"? Or is what you are "you"?

God is not a man.

Actually, Christ is God and Man.

Divine nature is not human nature not even in Christ.

[LBK]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

Is what you do "you"? Or is what you are "you"?

God is not a man.

Actually, Christ is God and Man.

Divine nature is not human nature not even in Christ.

Do you deny that Christ is fully God and fully Man? 

[lovetzatziki]

Hi OP,

If, as you seem to project, you are looking for the truth, could you perhaps start with your profile? Say, your faith is "Atheism" and not Christianity, that is if you are fully convinced of what you believe now.

You say, perhaps God and the devil are the same, how did you arrive at that? You gave examples such as the experience of Job, and suggested you value what is logical, could you then please create a well formed argument? Such as

A is B.
B is C.
Therefore, A is C.

Is that possible?

Thanks.

I am confused. I am in a bit delicate time of my life. That is why I opened all this threads around the same subject. I don't know who God is anymore or who the devil is.

In the book of Job, God and the devil seem to work together or atleast play dice over Job. In Isaiah 45 God says he creates evil/calumny. AFAIK in Judaism the agent of calumny is Satan, and also the prosecutor in the court of judgement.

I guess what I am asking is who the Devil is and what are his relations with God.

First of all, thanks, for your calm reply.

Please realize that the scripture can be interpreted in many ways, some doing so by cherry picking, and some without proper guidance. What you see, may not be the same with others. It then comes down to what is reasonable interpretation. But we need not get down to hermeneutics, unless we have to.

In the beginning, there is no Devil. Perhaps you forgot about this, in Ezekiel 28 he was described as

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice that he was described as having full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. This isn't a description of what is evil. Moreover, he was the anointed cherub that covers. As I see it, since there were cherubim, then among them he was "the". His nearness with God is so that he covers. This is really, really close. He was perfect in his ways.

He became the evil when iniquity was found in him.

Does this clarify what is the relationship of Lucifer with God before the former became evil?

Isn't God the source of all things, you might say. The answer is no. While God is the source, he is the source of all things good, since good begets good, a tree is known by its fruit. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Sure, the KJV translated Isaiah 45:7 as

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

But "evil" here is open to other translation such as calamity which NASB used. In any case, we have to be careful how we read text, and shouldn't take things as it appeared.

Since God created all things good, the covering cherub then became evil, not from God but as the fathers had put it by deprivation of what is good. It is not God who deprived of what is good, on the contrary, he gave him things that are good. Rather, it is Lucifer himself who rejected the goodness of his state and relationship with God, for in Ezekiel again,

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So here, we see him as himself being the source of his own corruption, and not God, for angels have free will, just as we. Makes sense?

I knew that according to Christianity Satan was "Lucifer" and angel of light. But what is his relation with God now? How does Satan relate with God?

He is God's enemy. The opposer.

Can God have an enemy, an adversary, unless he wants to?

This assertion is incorrect. If God is all good, then he will only create good things. What would be the point of having an adversary? To show that he is sovereign? God has no need of that just to prove him so. He is, whether one reckons it or not.

If A comes to B in a friendly manner, and B rejected that and started opposing A, and started regarding A as B's enemy, did A cause B to be A's enemy? Yes or no?

Except that this A is the All Mighty , All Powerfull and All Knowledgeable God. God cannot have an enemy, unless he chooses so. God could destroy the devil in the next second he chose to rebel and "cut the evil right from its roots" so that is why I am saying that God cannot have an enemy unless he wants to. Or are you saying that the devil is a heavier stone than God could life(crush)?

God didn't chose to have enemy. The possibility is there to have enemy because of free will. What we do see is an agent can turn what is good into an evil.

God could destroy Satan immediately after he chose to rebel, we might suppose, but I could not presume that since I don't have the knowledge of God, and neither you. Do we know where it actually started? If it's in the garden of Eden, then perhaps it would do more harm than good since man was already dragged into it.

Suppose Satan was destroyed immediately. Suppose even when warned of God not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil man ate, where are we then? It would be unfair not to destroy man, right? since God destroyed Satan immediately after he rebelled. What then comes of God? He would then be considered a failure because he started something that he could not finish, and in frustration destroyed his creation. Not very wise, isn't it?

Too much fuzz over a myth. Ok.. Better leave this nice Devil mock and destroy the human race and future creation. Niceee. If its creation is wrong than the fault is with the creator. If a painter makes a bad tableaux , people don't say it's the tableaux is unskilled, but the painter.

And where did Satan drawed his iniquity from? Wasn't Satan created from God and doesn't Satan still have the essence of God in him?

I already answered that from the previous post. As an individual, Satan, like us, has freedom to choose. He could remain in his state, but like other angels who went out with him abandoned where they used to be, i.e. being in the presence of God.

That means that evil pre-existed satan as he had evil as an option.

No, it doesn't. Free will presupposes that one can choose to do and not to do. It is neutral in the face of good or evil. Evil will then only exist after rejecting what is good. Since God was before all creation, that is, goodness has preexistence, evil then existed after.

Than there is no evil ontologically.

Well, there is since it is embodied now in the being of Satan. While a thing is a possibility we cannot say it has an ontological existence.

If evil exist ontologically and satan was good along with all beings in the beginning than evil must of preceded Satan's rebellion, and where else to come if not from God?

Superman doesn't exist just because someone made a movie.

Perhaps, you need to clarify your statements. How can he have God's essence? If he has God's essence then he is God, and not a created being. What do you mean by having God's essence? God's goodness? That would be absurd given that his activities consist of opposing what is good.

Isn't life God's essence? Isn't the essence of God that of which all creation is made?

There is life, there is also God's creative power. But they are not God's essence. I don't think we can even begin to grasp God's very life. What we see are just energies of God, not his essence.

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

The energies of God is God, but his essence is not his energies.

If no how could he still be alive?

He is "dead", just as sinners are, being separated from God.

I see sinners still breathing, moving, etc, and having that something to return to God, the image of God in them, not being entirely evil in their essence.

Yes, that is correct.

They are alive than.

Yes, they are alive physically; they are also spiritually dead since they are separated from God who is life.

Can something really be Separated ontologically from God? Do you have argumentation for your claims?

Isn't God the one that sustains all life, and LIFE itself and isn't all creation emerging from Him being part of Him and His doing, having His essence which is Life as the Scriptures say that God is Life? The Logos is the truth the way and the life.. The life of men.. etc..

God sustains life in that he provides what we need to live. As for angels, like men, it will continue existing, whether they are good or evil. Life is given, not for destruction but to live. Again, it is absurd that God would give life with a purpose of destroying it. In Calvinism doctrine, yes. But as to the teaching handed down by the apostles, no.

I don't care about Calvinism and if you mean predestination, destiny, etc learn that this controversy predates calvinism with more than half of millennium. It was mostly consumed in Gaul(France today). Isn't God the source of all life? "In him we live, we move and have our being" (Cretan proverb + Scripture + Paul) . So the demons must also live move and have their being in God, who if life. And according to that it follows that the being of God is also evil. A=B , B=C, C=A.

You are confusing things, and that made you argument faulty. The demons have will of their own. Their will is their own, not God's. Do not confuse them.

Does anything happen without God's will and permission?

There are things that God permits, but are not according to his will. God does not violate one's free will. Otherwise, it is no longer free.

Free-will is a myth. If God created free-will and free-will harms him than he is a fool and/or perverse. Esspecially if it harms him in the manner of putting billions into an eternal hell. Free-will is inconsistent with all-mightiness, or God has issues. And whenever anything happens against someone's will in this life (gee I guess that happens enough in this world now doesn't it?) his free-will is violated. So don't tell me God respects free will, because I see people's free-will being violated a lot in this world. And do you have any proof from any fathers , councils, etc, at all that there exists absolute free-will? Because what I am getting from the fathers and the councils is that it doesn't! All in all scenarios, your God is not cool.

If the Devil still has this divine essence in him how can he be the very incarnation and entity of evil,pure evil,If God is entirely good,benevolent ? What is evil according to you and where does it originate from? Can something exist without God who is the source and support of all creation, and as the Scriptures say if he takes back his support they will perish?(If we are bragging and battleling in Scripture, note to LBK)

Already answered this. Please re-read my previous post.

Where cause I do not see where you touched this.

To reprise, the source of evil is in depriving one's self of what is good. Rejecting what is good effected what is evil in one's person.

And what is Good?

God is good. God's creation is good. God's plan is good. Obeying God's commandment is good.

You know these, so I'm not sure why you even asked.

Develop please.

Creation is not good (a lot of evil, corruption, etc). Or perhaps you have a different deffinition of goodness?

If God is entirely good and evil exists entithetically, separately and incontrolably from God than we have two Gods. How do you know the other one won't win in the end? He sure seems to win in the world we are living in now doesn't he?

[Romaios]

Free-will is a myth. 

Yet you seem to write here what you freely will and God allows it.

[lovetzatziki]

Free-will is a myth. 

Yet you seem to write here what you freely will and God allows it.

How do you know it is not God writing it? =))

[Romaios]

How do you know it is not God writing it? =))

Philological expertise. 

[lovetzatziki]

Either God has free-will and humans don't or humans and all creations have free-will and God doesn't.

[lovetzatziki]

How do you know it is not God writing it? =))

Philological expertise. 

Sure if you want to limit God. B-)

What happened with all that willing to listen thind ?

[lovetzatziki]

What is the diference between essence and energy? Are you saying that the whole world has God's energies but not his essence? I thought that God's energies = God.

God's essence is what God is. God's energies is what God does.

But aren't God's energies part of his essence and somehow connected to his essence?

Is what you do "you"? Or is what you are "you"?

God is not a man.

Actually, Christ is God and Man.

Divine nature is not human nature not even in Christ.

Do you deny that Christ is fully God and fully Man? 

Do you deny that you are a troll?

According to Chalcedonian Chrystology the two natures in Christ are not mixed and Divine nature is DISTINCT from human nature.

[Romaios]

Either God has free-will and humans don't or humans and all creations have free-will and God doesn't.

Non sequitur.

Humans have free will (autexousia - self-determination), but are not omnipotent.

[Romaios]

How do you know it is not God writing it? =))

Philological expertise. 

Sure if you want to limit God. B-)

What happened with all that willing to listen thind ?

Listening involves distinguishing one voice from others or noise - God is coherent.

"My sheep hear My voice: and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:27)

[lovetzatziki]

Either God has free-will and humans don't or humans and all creations have free-will and God doesn't.

Non sequitur.

Humans have free will (autexousia - self-determination), but are not omnipotent.

If humans have free-will and God doesn't than at least one's free-will is broken and not respected. If people have free-will and their will goes against the will of God than God does not have free-will.

[lovetzatziki]

How do you know it is not God writing it? =))

Philological expertise. 

Sure if you want to limit God. B-)

What happened with all that willing to listen thind ?

Listening involves distinguishing one voice from others or noise - God is coherent.

"My sheep hear My voice: and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:27)

Perhaps you're just not listening.

This is what happens when people are not entirely honest in forum debates and seek other things, they end up contradicting themselves. You said you only hear the voice of God when you are listening.

[Romaios]

If humans have free-will and God doesn't than at least one's free-will is broken and not respected. If people have free-will and their will goes against the will of God than God does not have free-will.

No. Free will cannot be "broken". And God surely respects it.

As I said, free will (aut-exousia) is not to be confused with omnipotence. It means you are free to choose from several (not infinite!) options that are available to you and thus determine your future.

You cannot "free-will" yourself out of a terminal illness or choose to live in another galaxy. That's not what free will is about.     

[Romaios]

Perhaps you're just not listening.

Perhaps there's not much worth listening to. Listening is always selective.

This is what happens when people are not entirely honest in forum debates and seek other things, they end up contradicting themselves. You said you only hear the voice of God when you are listening.

Yes. Now I only hear your voice.

[lovetzatziki]

If humans have free-will and God doesn't than at least one's free-will is broken and not respected. If people have free-will and their will goes against the will of God than God does not have free-will.

No. Free will cannot be "broken". And God surely respects it.

As I said, free will (aut-exousia) is not to be confused with omnipotence. It means you are free to choose from several (not infinite!) options that are available to you and thus determine your future.

You cannot "free-will" yourself out of a terminal illness or choose to live in another galaxy. That's not what free will is about.     

Either God's will is being done in the world and with the world or not. In the first case God is the main responsible for everything that happens in the world. If not that would put a lot of questions towards his omnipotence.

[TheTrisagion]

I don't think you understand what "free will" means, or "omnipotence", or "responsible".

[lovetzatziki]

I don't think you understand what "free will" means, or "omnipotence", or "responsible".

Enlighten me than. I doubt you can create a spider web around Christian doctrine.

[Nikolaos Greek]

The devil exists because he foughts me.
God is not devil because He loves me.
Jesus haven't in a way stated this?
Matthew 12 25-28: Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
If God is both God and devil then he would fight Himself. Afterall God wants to save everyone. He lets devil trying to make us sin to become better or because we allow it.
My friend no of your questions can get unanswered.

[TheTrisagion]

I don't think you understand what "free will" means, or "omnipotence", or "responsible".

Enlighten me than. I doubt you can create a spider web around Christian doctrine.

Free Will - the ability, but not obligation, to make a choice between two or more options

Omnipotence - the ability to take any action consisent with your nature

Responsible - having the obligation to take some action

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