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Author Topic: OK here's a puzzle  (Read 7831 times) Average Rating: 0
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2003, 06:44:28 PM »

Robert, they are called secret prayers for a reason. I've never read anything instructing or allowing them to be read allowed.

The only "secret prayer" that my newly-ordained Acting Rector, a dyed-in-the-wool traditionalist priest, does aloud during the Divine Liturgy is the Epiklesis, and the congregation responds with loud "Amens!" at its conclusion when the Archdeacon is away serving with the bishop or is at the cathedral.  With no Adult Education whatsoever during the 44 years of the previous Rector's pastorate, the new priest is doing this to educate the Faithful that a deep bow (metany) should be done at this point of the Sunday Liturgy--no more uncanonical kneeling!  I think it is justified in this case--St. John of Kronstadt would have approved, I'm sure!

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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2003, 06:45:59 PM »

JMJ

Nor have I Nik.  Actually the practice of "secret" or "silent" prayers goes all the way back to the apostles and one could presume that it also happened in the Old Testement Temple.  This case is made in "How Christ Said the First Mass" available from TAN books (TANbooks.com).  Although this is a Traditional Roman Book it very clearly indicates how many of the Traditions common to both East and West go all the way back to Moses and Aaron and from their to Mt. Sinai and from their to Eternity in Heaven.  

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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2003, 07:24:53 PM »

JMJ

Nor have I Nik.  Actually the practice of "secret" or "silent" prayers goes all the way back to the apostles and one could presume that it also happened in the Old Testement Temple.  This case is made in "How Christ Said the First Mass" available from TAN books (TANbooks.com).  Although this is a Traditional Roman Book it very clearly indicates how many of the Traditions common to both East and West go all the way back to Moses and Aaron and from their to Mt. Sinai and from their to Eternity in Heaven.  

Joe Zollars

What you are referring to are "rubrics" (that which was written in "red"), which were inserted on the sides of the pages of the priest's copy of the Liturgy, often by unknowns over the centuries, and becoming "law" in their own right.  However, it most certainly is within the competence/authority of a Synod of Bishops to "adjust" the rubrics for pastoral reasons, e.g., the edification of the Faithful, the participation of the Faithful in the liturgical action, the cessation of clericalism (like "private" priest-only Masses in the West) where it raises its ugly head.

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2003, 07:28:46 PM »

Frobisher...

You and your Latin Mass magazine...
Do you still receive that in the mail?

Bobby

No, that was YOU. Are they still sending you yours? I have never even touched a copy of the magazine, though I just today looked at their website.

Matt, getting the record straight
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« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2003, 07:31:17 PM »

This thread is getting too much about the Latins. I propose that the discussion go back to the previous topic (iconostases) or that it be locked.

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« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2003, 07:35:06 PM »

And perhaps a new thread, in the appropriate section, about the silent prayers that Robert opposes.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2003, 07:53:03 PM »

And perhaps a new thread, in the appropriate section, about the silent prayers that Robert opposes.

Only the "rubrics" designate certain prayers as "silent prayers," Nik.  There is also the opposite kind of rubric found in the Greek and Antiochian churches, but *not* in the Slavic, concerning the Trisagion.  Some unknown monk at some time wrote, in Greek, the word "Louder!" in the margin of the Liturgy book.  Over time this directive (rubric) accidentally found its way into the text of the Byzantine Greek and Antiochian recensions of the Divine Liturgy itself: The deacon now shouts: "Louder!" for the final "Holy God" of the Trisagion, and the choir repeats: "Louder!" before the final singing of "Holy God."  That was never the original intention (which was only a directive to the chanter), but try to remove it (it's now become an important and "necessary" liturgical "high point"), and you'll get steamrollered over in a Greek or Antiochian church!

The same could be said about the insertion of the Prayer of the Third Hour before the Epiklesis in the Russian recension.  The rubric designating the recitation of this prayer is totally unknown outside of the Russian tradition.  Is a Liturgy "invalid" without the (silent) recitation of the Prayer of the Third Hour before the Epiklesis in, let us say, Cyprus then, Nik?

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« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2003, 07:53:34 PM »

Obviously my coming back here was indeed too hasty.  Please pray for me as this will be the last time I come back here.

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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2003, 08:49:51 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

While I agree that the rubrics shouldn't be made dogmatic and pastoral reasons call the priest to pray the silent prays outloud, not all of them make sense to be read outloud...i.e. what the priest says silently during the Trisagion.  Silent prayers DO have a place in the history of Orthodoxy and it would be wrong to chuck them out the window; let's leave destroying liturgical heritage to Vatican II...
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2003, 09:09:30 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

While I agree that the rubrics shouldn't be made dogmatic and pastoral reasons call the priest to pray the silent prays outloud, not all of them make sense to be read outloud...i.e. what the priest says silently during the Trisagion.  Silent prayers DO have a place in the history of Orthodoxy and it would be wrong to chuck them out the window; let's leave destroying liturgical heritage to Vatican II...  

Nektarios, my friend, you'll get no argument from me on the points you raised, but only agreement.  Concerning rubrics, let prudence, i.e., "good common sense," and pastoral solicitude under the guidance and blessing of one's Synod of Bishops prevail.  Priests shouldn't be "doing their own thing" with the Divne Liturgy (or any Orthodox liturgical service for that matter, IMHO). There must be peace and concord in the churches, not confusion when one goes from one parish to another.  

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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2003, 10:11:59 PM »

I must concur completely.
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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2003, 11:05:05 PM »

Most of my points regarding the old Roman Mass are better taken up in private with Joe and others, so I will probably do that, but, without getting too off topic for this thread, I tend to agree with Bobby about silent prayers in the Liturgy.  Some prayers that are taken silently, both in the old Roman Mass and in the Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy, seem to me to clearly be prayers that were originally taken aloud and should be taken aloud now, because they are not prayers proper to the priest alone, but to the priest and the people.  For example, to refer to the revised Roman Mass of Vatican II, the prayers at the offertory where the priest washes his hands and bows toward the altar are silent prayers and should remain silent because they pertain to the priest alone; they are prayers to prepare the priest personally for what he is about to do.  But the Eucharistic Prayer/Canon/Anaphora clearly pertains to everyone at Mass, and not just the priest, and so it should be taken aloud.  So there should be silent prayers, but not everything that is taken silently was meant to be taken silently, and it would probably be beneficial to take them aloud.
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« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2003, 11:16:05 PM »

JMJ

If any discussion of the Western Catholic Tradition is forbidden on this forum, than perhaps its name needs to be changed to "Orthodox-EasternCatholic discussion."  Just a suggestion but if your not going to allow the discussion of Western Christianity you just should put it in the name instead of saying "whether East or West".

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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2003, 12:20:21 AM »

<skip>  Some prayers that are taken silently, both in the old Roman Mass and in the Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy, seem to me to clearly be prayers that were originally taken aloud and should be taken aloud now, because they are not prayers proper to the priest alone, but to the priest and the people.  For example, to refer to the revised Roman Mass of Vatican II, the prayers at the offertory where the priest washes his hands and bows toward the altar are silent prayers and should remain silent because they pertain to the priest alone; they are prayers to prepare the priest personally for what he is about to do.  But the Eucharistic Prayer/Canon/Anaphora clearly pertains to everyone at Mass, and not just the priest, and so it should be taken aloud.  So there should be silent prayers, but not everything that is taken silently was meant to be taken silently, and it would probably be beneficial to take them aloud.    

Right Mor.  But in the Orthodox Church the way that this happens is through organic development, slowly (almost imperceptibly) over time, seemingly from the bottom up, without major disruptions (except for the notable historical case of the Nikonian reforms in Russia), the Holy Tradition remaining wholly intact,without addition, subtraction or mutation.  In the Roman Church, however, it seems to happen by dictate from the Vatican or by a territorial Catholic Bishops' Conference, and major ruptures and iconoclasms in liturgical organic continuity occur as a result.  And then you have the "Novus Ordo-ists" vs. the Tridentines, the SSPX Society and the like.

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« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2003, 10:26:23 AM »

JMJ

Hypo-Ortho:

Organic development is the exact reason we do not support the NO.  The Novus Ordo was composed by 6 Protestant Ministers and one heretical freemason posing as an ArchBishop.  Than, despite 2/3 of the Latin Rite Bishops objecting, it was imposed by Paul VI.  However Paul VI issued an encyclical shortly after entitled "The Need for Latin Still Remains."

That is why we oppose the NO.  The NO is not a process of organic development.  It was, for the first time in Christian History, an engineered Liturgy.

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« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2003, 12:47:26 PM »

Dear Joe,

I think what Bobby was getting at was that this thread is for discussion of Orthodox and Catholic relations or issues like that.  For liturgical discussions, there is always the Liturgy forum.  It's just a matter of everything being in its proper place.

I was very interested in hearing your remark that over 2/3 of RC bishops objected to the new Mass.  Where can one read more on this?

Dear Hypo,

I completely agree with you regarding organic development.  

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« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2003, 02:27:11 PM »

Dear Mor Ephrem:

Let me do some digging and find my source for you.  I believe it was mentioned in a book about  the Ottaviani Intervention.  Let me do some digging.

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« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2003, 06:54:26 PM »

A few random thoughts.

I'm pro-silent prayers and like the fact that they parallel the Tridentine Mass. One of my best memories (and I know the purists here won't like it) is of going to a spoken 'Holy Mass' (how the old priest translated -ü-+-â-¦-¦-¦ -æ-+-¦i) nearly 20 years ago at a Ukrainian Catholic church in New Jersey, where you had the best of all possible worlds — English (American congregation, not-fluent foreign-born priest), congregational responses AND the mystery and reverence of the priest behind the screen, facing God, offering God's Sacrifice with prayers sotto voce. Incidentally there was no incense either (not good), during the service the priest walked through the church with the collection basket personally, saying 'God bless you' to each person who put something in (it was a tiny church) and at Communion everybody knelt on the step in front of the beautiful iconostasis and the priest had them pass down his hand cross to kiss before he gave them the Sacrament.

The legitimate RC liturgical movement did want to get rid of Low Masses and make Solemn Mass the norm everywhere, drawing part of its inspiration for this from the Eastern rites. (Definitely good for Sundays but I don't see it being practical for daily Mass, which is a longtime part of Roman Catholic piety.) They were betrayed in the '60s.

<digression to Joe's long RC posting>
Finally, I learnt something from Joe's posting I never saw articulated before. I just assumed England's proximity to Catholic Europe was the reason why it had things like the Brompton Oratory (doing services with continental panache) and the Irish-formed US Catholics didn't. Of course its proximity made somebody like Wiseman possible.

Thomas Day does a great job of explaining why Irish-bred RC culture in the US is the way it is. Solemnity as such (as in solemn Masses, incense, etc.) wasn't really Anglican (they didn't start doing it till the mid-1800s and even then it was opposed by most Anglicans), but Day points out that every time the persecuted Irish saw a pretty church with stained glass, and heard majestic organ music and choral and congregational singing coming from it, it was a Protestant, specifically English and Anglican, church.
</digression>
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2003, 11:57:53 PM »

This thread is getting too much about the Latins. I propose that the discussion go back to the previous topic (iconostases) or that it be locked.



Amen, amen, amen!!!  Unless it's tied in with Orthodoxy somehow, Frobie, much of this stuff should be on the liturgical section of an RC Forum, IMO.  Again, I admit my own guilt in contributing to the expansion of this Latin stuff here, so I'm bowing out completely on further discussion on this thread.

Hypo-Ortho
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