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Author Topic: Annihilationism and disbelief in immaterial souls  (Read 9919 times) Average Rating: 0
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2013, 07:50:08 PM »

^Yep. That's about right.  It's too bad I can't tap into my vast arsenal of reaction faces.  TT__TT 

They are still around pushing their doctrines whilst calling members of the body of Christ heretics and not Christian. In the same spirit of the Roman Catholic Church who burnt alive and tortured the true Christians.

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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2013, 08:45:34 PM »

^Yep. That's about right.  It's too bad I can't tap into my vast arsenal of reaction faces.  TT__TT 

They are still around pushing their doctrines whilst calling members of the body of Christ heretics and not Christian. In the same spirit of the Roman Catholic Church who burnt alive and tortured the true Christians.



Ha ha! Nice.  I see you visit Deviantart as well.
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« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2013, 09:13:21 PM »

Welp, here's her essay on the topic of annihilationism:

_________________________________________________
As many Christians have noticed, one of the main issues non-Christians have with Christianity is the doctrine of the eternal conscious torment of the unsaved in Hell. The doctrine of ECT (as Eternal Conscious Torment will be called here on out) understandably clashes with most people’s sense of justice.  It clashes with mine, too. In fact, I’m sure that the vast majority of Christians have had at least`some emotional distress when they thought about the traditional view of Hell.  Of course, just because something is emotionally displeasing doesn’t mean that it isn’t true, and which view of Hell is true is one of the most crucial things one can know.  Hell is too important for careless thinking and taking one’s own view for granted.  Christians must make sure whether such a major doctrine such as ECT aligns with the Bible.  If it doesn’t fit with Scripture, well,  I’m sure God is very displeased His followers are saying such things about Him.  So, does the Bible really require us to believe that God will keep people alive in Hell forever just to suffer?
 
I won’t beat around the bush any longer.  I don’t think so.  I’m a Conditionalist.  You may have heard of other views of Hell held by Christians besides the majority ECT one, which I will sometimes refer to as Traditionalism.  The largest alternative view of Hell is Universalism, also known as Universal Reconciliation.  Conditionalism, also known as Annihilationism or Conditional Immortality, is less famous (or infamous, I suppose) than Universalism.  Simply put, it holds that eternal life is a gift from God, so the unsaved just won’t live forever. 

A more detailed explanation of Conditionalism is that the unsaved will be resurrected, but unlike the saved, will not be gifted with immortality.  Instead, they will be punished with permanent destruction, which includes a certain degree of suffering during the destruction.  Though the amount and strength of the finite suffering that is involved in the destruction will vary person to person according to divine justice, all the unsaved will eventually cease to exist.  Though the suffering will be finite, the punishment (complete destruction) will be eternal, since there will be no coming back from oblivion after this Second Death. 

“Which verses support your view?” you are right to ask.  Before I tell you, however, I would like to point something out.  Many, or even most Christians are committed to the belief that the soul is either indestructible or will never be destroyed.  While this may not be the only factor that causes someone is a Traditionalist (or a Universalist, for that matter), it’s inevitable that this would affect what a Christian believes about Hell.  I would like any reader who holds this view about the human soul to at least acknowledge how this could affect how they take the defense of my view.  It is very likely that you have read the verses that I am about to quote many times over, but through a sort of ECT “filter.”  I would therefore ask you to acknowledge this figurative filter, and to try to remove it, if possible, just for the sake of trying to understand my position.

Now, on to the scriptural support.  In this essay, I will focus on the Biblical language of destruction, since the argument for Conditional Immortality that is based on it is the most straightforward.   

John 3:16 is among the most quoted verses, and for good reason.  It very succinctly explains the gospel in a way that is easy to understand.  Since it is so commonplace, it is easy to miss important messages in the text.  “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”   

I can’t think of a clearer way of saying it. 

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« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2013, 09:15:54 PM »

... continued

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« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2013, 09:17:36 PM »

Hey...what's with these dang question marks?  Ugh.  Well, here's a link to the essay.  http://anditworked.deviantart.com/art/A-Simple-Argument-for-Conditionalism-353874657
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« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2013, 10:04:11 PM »

Many, or even most Christians are committed to the belief that the soul is either indestructible or will never be destroyed.  
We don't.

It is very difficult to "beat" someone at this sort of word game, "What does age-lasting mean?" etc. Taking into account extra-biblical usage is helpful but often this reveals a deep distrust of Christians and Jews of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC and AD. And then we end up talking past each other.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:11:02 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2013, 10:12:01 PM »

Hey...what's with these dang question marks?  Ugh.  Well, here's a link to the essay.  http://anditworked.deviantart.com/art/A-Simple-Argument-for-Conditionalism-353874657
You can't read it unless you're logged in to the site.
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« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2013, 02:35:17 AM »

That teaching seems contrary to what the church has received.
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« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2013, 01:15:09 PM »

Hey...what's with these dang question marks?  Ugh.  Well, here's a link to the essay.  http://anditworked.deviantart.com/art/A-Simple-Argument-for-Conditionalism-353874657
You can't read it unless you're logged in to the site.

But... I am logged onto the site.  Technology! Who needs it?
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2013, 01:27:01 PM »

From the welcome page of rethinkginhell.com

Quote
The Bible is the final authority for Christian belief.

Well, they're you have it.  An assorted number of evangelical groups each with their own proof verses.
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« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2013, 01:50:35 PM »

I have found the idea of annihilationism very appealing as well, though I will accept the Church's decision regarding such things.  I am not sure though if there is a dogmatic view regarding this, since I have read that we are allowed to pray for the salvation of all even though the Church rejects universalism.  What perplexes me are the frequent references in the scriptures to "eternal life."  If the damned are to be bodily resurrected and live forever in hell, then it seems they have eternal life as well, albeit in a horrible place.  The only way around this is to play word games and say that real life is being with the Lord, and that those in hell are not really experiencing life.  Eternal life in the NT always seems to be reference only to the saved:

"what must I do to inherit eternal life" (Luke 18:18)

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)

"I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die." (John 11: 25-26)

"For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6: 40)

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord " (Romans 6:22-23)

Throughout it seems that eternal life is for the saved, so annihilationism for the damned makes sense to me.

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21-8)

While hell burns forever, I would like to think that the second death really means total destruction.  Again, I accept the Church's decision on these matters.

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« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2013, 04:10:38 PM »

Souls are material?
They are created. Yes. But have they material? I may be wrong... Please if you can use the fathers...
My mistake second judment I worte while I ment second coming. Embarrassed
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« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2013, 04:29:00 PM »

A note to Didyma.

I would see the theory of annihilationism as being totally separate from immateriality or immortality of the soul.  God created everything, and He can destroy anything He wants, so the nature of the soul and its existence is entirely up to Him.  No bearing on annihilationism at all that I can see. 
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« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2013, 09:34:42 PM »

Another resource that she uses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je3AW6QeXzk&autoplay=1
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« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2013, 11:24:22 PM »

It is a testimony of God's love that he does not destroy what he has made, even if it suffer eternally, having chosen not to receive that love. The love is still given.
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« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2013, 11:39:11 PM »

It is a testimony of God's love that he does not destroy what he has made, even if it suffer eternally, having chosen not to receive that love. The love is still given.

Does not compute!
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« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2013, 11:42:04 PM »

So you would rather that God hate than for God to love, right? 
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« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2013, 11:44:51 PM »

I would prefer nonexistence to suffering, especially of the eternal variety. I would also gladly make that choice for others if they gave me that power and were in a situation in which I had to act.

Also, I would agree with the suggestion (which I also said earlier in the thread) that materiality and what happens to humans are not necessarily connected. They can be to some extent, but in the end they it is not a decisive part of it IMO.
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« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2013, 11:45:10 PM »

It is a testimony of God's love that he does not destroy what he has made, even if it suffer eternally, having chosen not to receive that love. The love is still given.

Does not compute!

How so?

The eternal punishment is the affliction the resurrected, immortal person experiences as a consequence of having rejected the love of God. In a way, hell begins in this life. It is a voluntary condition. But in this life, a person has lots of things to distract him. After the general resurrection, there will be nothing he or she can do to hide from God, to suppress the truth. The "damned" will have no means of escape from the manifestation of love which they refuse--having missed the chance to accept it.
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« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2013, 11:55:35 PM »

I would prefer nonexistence to suffering, especially of the eternal variety. I would also gladly make that choice for others if they gave me that power and were in a situation in which I had to act.

The problem with such statements is that we have no idea what "nonexistence" is.  We assume it involves no suffering, or that it's like sleeping (no consciousness of pain) or death (an end to suffering), and so must be better than "suffering".  But "nonexistence" is as useful a category as "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus".  It's a statement necessarily rooted in profound ignorance, but presumes not only to choose such ignorance for oneself, but for others.     
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« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2013, 11:59:46 PM »

I feel the word with the content as seems best. As with faith, God, reason, etc.  Cool
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« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2013, 12:01:45 AM »

Didyma, I will dare to posit, perhaps I am wrong (hopefully Asteriktos will forgive my common misuse of certain terms) that the Annihilationalist position, as we receive it here, is itself the negative answer to a particular dualistic, clinical, stoic sort of question; a question that "traditonalists" answer in the positive.

That question is preceded by a declaration: "To live is to continue to exist. To die means to cease to exist. For humans, to continue to exist means that the mind/soul is functioning." And so the question then is, "Are those condemned at the last judgment still preserved as immortal, or do they cease to exist?"

But is that how Ancient Near Eastern peoples encountered death? Is that how they encountered life? I don't think we see that in Near Eastern texts. Let us examine, first, a version of the Gilgamesh story that comes down to us through the Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm
(see the last few paragraphs at the bottom).

The hero Gilgamesh requests that the god Enki pull a dead out of the realm of the dead. The dead man gives an account of what he saw there, the state of those who 'exist', or rather 'persist' there. They 'persist' in darkness and shadow, they are eaten by worms, they carry on in reflection of what exists in the realm of the living.

Are they "conscious"? It is difficult to say. At times they are "conscious" for the sake of the story, at times they are what you would see in a deaf, dumb and blind corpse. And for these Mesopotamians, the two are not contradictory. They are somehow depicting the mystery of death. One is almost reminded of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

In another legend (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) about the death of a goddess, the Mesopotamian scribes tell us: "The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." She eventually leaves the underworld. But for a while, she lingered there as meat on a hook. Is her soul-mind functioning? Is she sensate? I think that's almost beside the point. For these near eastern people, death shined forth as a woman lingering as meat on a hook.

We might see a similar sort of reality depicted in Job, Isaiah, and in other parts of the Scriptures; Proverbs, the Psalms, etc. And we speak here of the reality of being really dead; the state that the stoic identifies with the negative answer to that question. And yet the dead linger in Sheol. There are shades, there are lingerings. There persist as shadows reflecting the land of the living, the goings on in life, maybe even in a magnified sense. They sit deaf and mute and cold in the depths of the pit, below the freshwater sea.

 Is it not possible, at least, that, as the worshipers of the most high God, Ha Shem, came bearing a great deal of the cosmology common to the Near East, that they shared in the Near Eastern understanding of death, too? "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

And that is something to think about. Now! How this relates to the Second Death at the End of the Ages, when Sheol is destroyed and there are no tombs, that is the next question to ask. Because "Christ is Risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2013, 09:09:55 AM »

God destroys not what He created. Well the reason to prefer to be destroyed rather than suffer they way we choose it's selfish.
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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2013, 09:24:20 AM »

I would prefer nonexistence to suffering, especially of the eternal variety. I would also gladly make that choice for others if they gave me that power and were in a situation in which I had to act.

The problem with such statements is that we have no idea what "nonexistence" is.  We assume it involves no suffering, or that it's like sleeping (no consciousness of pain) or death (an end to suffering), and so must be better than "suffering".  But "nonexistence" is as useful a category as "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus".  It's a statement necessarily rooted in profound ignorance, but presumes not only to choose such ignorance for oneself, but for others.     
There is no "nonexistence" that "is".  It "is" nothing.  It "is" the absence.  My son is nonexistent because I do not have a son.  It does not involve suffering or not suffering. It can't be equated with a "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus" as those terms are all things or ideas whether they be imaginary or not.  "Nonexistence" is not that, it is the absence of a thing or idea.

The desire for nonexistence is goal of suicide.  God has not given us that option though.  Each of us exists for a purpose, so while it is possible to wish longingly for nonexistence, the fact is we will never attain that, so there is no use longing for it.
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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2013, 10:00:05 AM »

There is no "nonexistence" that "is".  It "is" nothing.  It "is" the absence.  My son is nonexistent because I do not have a son.  It does not involve suffering or not suffering. It can't be equated with a "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus" as those terms are all things or ideas whether they be imaginary or not.  "Nonexistence" is not that, it is the absence of a thing or idea.

Nonexistence is the absence of existence, which is a thing/idea.  But the fact that we can speak of nonexistence and name it in spite of the fact that "it" does not exist makes it at least as "imaginary" as "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus".  If we can speak of the latter because its constituent descriptives are named things/ideas whether imaginary or not, I don't see why the same can't be done for nonexistence. 

Otherwise, I agree with what you wrote.  It underlines the absurdity of such comments as that to which I replied.  Nothing against Asteriktos, mind you.  He's as far from absurd as my unicorn is from reality.   
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2013, 11:32:10 AM »

So you would rather that God hate than for God to love, right? 

Whom are you addressing?
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2013, 11:36:51 AM »

That comment (reply #61) was in response to reply #60. 
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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2013, 11:38:40 AM »

Didyma, I will dare to posit, perhaps I am wrong (hopefully Asteriktos will forgive my common misuse of certain terms) that the Annihilationalist position, as we receive it here, is itself the negative answer to a particular dualistic, clinical, stoic sort of question; a question that "traditonalists" answer in the positive.

That question is preceded by a declaration: "To live is to continue to exist. To die means to cease to exist. For humans, to continue to exist means that the mind/soul is functioning." And so the question then is, "Are those condemned at the last judgment still preserved as immortal, or do they cease to exist?"

But is that how Ancient Near Eastern peoples encountered death? Is that how they encountered life? I don't think we see that in Near Eastern texts. Let us examine, first, a version of the Gilgamesh story that comes down to us through the Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm
(see the last few paragraphs at the bottom).

The hero Gilgamesh requests that the god Enki pull a dead out of the realm of the dead. The dead man gives an account of what he saw there, the state of those who 'exist', or rather 'persist' there. They 'persist' in darkness and shadow, they are eaten by worms, they carry on in reflection of what exists in the realm of the living.

Are they "conscious"? It is difficult to say. At times they are "conscious" for the sake of the story, at times they are what you would see in a deaf, dumb and blind corpse. And for these Mesopotamians, the two are not contradictory. They are somehow depicting the mystery of death. One is almost reminded of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

In another legend (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) about the death of a goddess, the Mesopotamian scribes tell us: "The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." She eventually leaves the underworld. But for a while, she lingered there as meat on a hook. Is her soul-mind functioning? Is she sensate? I think that's almost beside the point. For these near eastern people, death shined forth as a woman lingering as meat on a hook.

We might see a similar sort of reality depicted in Job, Isaiah, and in other parts of the Scriptures; Proverbs, the Psalms, etc. And we speak here of the reality of being really dead; the state that the stoic identifies with the negative answer to that question. And yet the dead linger in Sheol. There are shades, there are lingerings. There persist as shadows reflecting the land of the living, the goings on in life, maybe even in a magnified sense. They sit deaf and mute and cold in the depths of the pit, below the freshwater sea.

 Is it not possible, at least, that, as the worshipers of the most high God, Ha Shem, came bearing a great deal of the cosmology common to the Near East, that they shared in the Near Eastern understanding of death, too? "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

And that is something to think about. Now! How this relates to the Second Death at the End of the Ages, when Sheol is destroyed and there are no tombs, that is the next question to ask. Because "Christ is Risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."

I don't quite understand.
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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2013, 06:23:26 PM »

Didyma, I will dare to posit, perhaps I am wrong (hopefully Asteriktos will forgive my common misuse of certain terms) that the Annihilationalist position, as we receive it here, is itself the negative answer to a particular dualistic, clinical, stoic sort of question; a question that "traditonalists" answer in the positive.

That question is preceded by a declaration: "To live is to continue to exist. To die means to cease to exist. For humans, to continue to exist means that the mind/soul is functioning." And so the question then is, "Are those condemned at the last judgment still preserved as immortal, or do they cease to exist?"

But is that how Ancient Near Eastern peoples encountered death? Is that how they encountered life? I don't think we see that in Near Eastern texts. Let us examine, first, a version of the Gilgamesh story that comes down to us through the Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm
(see the last few paragraphs at the bottom).

The hero Gilgamesh requests that the god Enki pull a dead out of the realm of the dead. The dead man gives an account of what he saw there, the state of those who 'exist', or rather 'persist' there. They 'persist' in darkness and shadow, they are eaten by worms, they carry on in reflection of what exists in the realm of the living.

Are they "conscious"? It is difficult to say. At times they are "conscious" for the sake of the story, at times they are what you would see in a deaf, dumb and blind corpse. And for these Mesopotamians, the two are not contradictory. They are somehow depicting the mystery of death. One is almost reminded of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

In another legend (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) about the death of a goddess, the Mesopotamian scribes tell us: "The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." She eventually leaves the underworld. But for a while, she lingered there as meat on a hook. Is her soul-mind functioning? Is she sensate? I think that's almost beside the point. For these near eastern people, death shined forth as a woman lingering as meat on a hook.

We might see a similar sort of reality depicted in Job, Isaiah, and in other parts of the Scriptures; Proverbs, the Psalms, etc. And we speak here of the reality of being really dead; the state that the stoic identifies with the negative answer to that question. And yet the dead linger in Sheol. There are shades, there are lingerings. There persist as shadows reflecting the land of the living, the goings on in life, maybe even in a magnified sense. They sit deaf and mute and cold in the depths of the pit, below the freshwater sea.

 Is it not possible, at least, that, as the worshipers of the most high God, Ha Shem, came bearing a great deal of the cosmology common to the Near East, that they shared in the Near Eastern understanding of death, too? "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

And that is something to think about. Now! How this relates to the Second Death at the End of the Ages, when Sheol is destroyed and there are no tombs, that is the next question to ask. Because "Christ is Risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."

I don't quite understand.

My point is that many Near Eastern peoples might not have even understood the exist/not exist conscious/unconscious clinical understanding of death. And so the question of "ECT" or whatever is a foreign question.
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« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2013, 06:27:52 PM »

What's more clinical than not breathing, no heartbeat, and starting to rot?
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« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2013, 10:01:16 PM »

Didyma, I will dare to posit, perhaps I am wrong (hopefully Asteriktos will forgive my common misuse of certain terms) that the Annihilationalist position, as we receive it here, is itself the negative answer to a particular dualistic, clinical, stoic sort of question; a question that "traditonalists" answer in the positive.

That question is preceded by a declaration: "To live is to continue to exist. To die means to cease to exist. For humans, to continue to exist means that the mind/soul is functioning." And so the question then is, "Are those condemned at the last judgment still preserved as immortal, or do they cease to exist?"

But is that how Ancient Near Eastern peoples encountered death? Is that how they encountered life? I don't think we see that in Near Eastern texts. Let us examine, first, a version of the Gilgamesh story that comes down to us through the Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm
(see the last few paragraphs at the bottom).

The hero Gilgamesh requests that the god Enki pull a dead out of the realm of the dead. The dead man gives an account of what he saw there, the state of those who 'exist', or rather 'persist' there. They 'persist' in darkness and shadow, they are eaten by worms, they carry on in reflection of what exists in the realm of the living.

Are they "conscious"? It is difficult to say. At times they are "conscious" for the sake of the story, at times they are what you would see in a deaf, dumb and blind corpse. And for these Mesopotamians, the two are not contradictory. They are somehow depicting the mystery of death. One is almost reminded of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

In another legend (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) about the death of a goddess, the Mesopotamian scribes tell us: "The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." She eventually leaves the underworld. But for a while, she lingered there as meat on a hook. Is her soul-mind functioning? Is she sensate? I think that's almost beside the point. For these near eastern people, death shined forth as a woman lingering as meat on a hook.

We might see a similar sort of reality depicted in Job, Isaiah, and in other parts of the Scriptures; Proverbs, the Psalms, etc. And we speak here of the reality of being really dead; the state that the stoic identifies with the negative answer to that question. And yet the dead linger in Sheol. There are shades, there are lingerings. There persist as shadows reflecting the land of the living, the goings on in life, maybe even in a magnified sense. They sit deaf and mute and cold in the depths of the pit, below the freshwater sea.

 Is it not possible, at least, that, as the worshipers of the most high God, Ha Shem, came bearing a great deal of the cosmology common to the Near East, that they shared in the Near Eastern understanding of death, too? "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

And that is something to think about. Now! How this relates to the Second Death at the End of the Ages, when Sheol is destroyed and there are no tombs, that is the next question to ask. Because "Christ is Risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."

I don't quite understand.

My point is that many Near Eastern peoples might not have even understood the exist/not exist conscious/unconscious clinical understanding of death. And so the question of "ECT" or whatever is a foreign question.

What would the Near Eastern peoples understand death as?
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« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2013, 10:30:48 PM »

From my sister:

"They seem to be getting confused because you posted two views of mine that aren't really related, and some of them seem to think that I'm an annihilationist because I'm an anthropological materialist (which is another reason why you should have done separate threads). 
Please explain that I'm an annihilationist because the Bible very clearly says that God can and will destroy the risen wicked. 
Also, you posted the Church fathers who were conditionalists video, which is good, but you didn't really explain it.  Please explain that I'm sharing it to provide evidence that some early church fathers were annihilationists/conditionalists, as someone asked early on for proof. (It would also be good to post the link again after explaining that so they don't have to go hunting for it.)
Could you tell them that I applied to join the forum so that I could talk to them directly?"
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« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2013, 10:42:23 PM »

I believe part of the materialism thing is my fault, as it is a bit of a pet concept I like to post about, and I should not have pushed that part of it. I apologize for that.
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« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2013, 01:19:22 AM »

Didyma, I will dare to posit, perhaps I am wrong (hopefully Asteriktos will forgive my common misuse of certain terms) that the Annihilationalist position, as we receive it here, is itself the negative answer to a particular dualistic, clinical, stoic sort of question; a question that "traditonalists" answer in the positive.

That question is preceded by a declaration: "To live is to continue to exist. To die means to cease to exist. For humans, to continue to exist means that the mind/soul is functioning." And so the question then is, "Are those condemned at the last judgment still preserved as immortal, or do they cease to exist?"

But is that how Ancient Near Eastern peoples encountered death? Is that how they encountered life? I don't think we see that in Near Eastern texts. Let us examine, first, a version of the Gilgamesh story that comes down to us through the Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm
(see the last few paragraphs at the bottom).

The hero Gilgamesh requests that the god Enki pull a dead out of the realm of the dead. The dead man gives an account of what he saw there, the state of those who 'exist', or rather 'persist' there. They 'persist' in darkness and shadow, they are eaten by worms, they carry on in reflection of what exists in the realm of the living.

Are they "conscious"? It is difficult to say. At times they are "conscious" for the sake of the story, at times they are what you would see in a deaf, dumb and blind corpse. And for these Mesopotamians, the two are not contradictory. They are somehow depicting the mystery of death. One is almost reminded of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

In another legend (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) about the death of a goddess, the Mesopotamian scribes tell us: "The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." She eventually leaves the underworld. But for a while, she lingered there as meat on a hook. Is her soul-mind functioning? Is she sensate? I think that's almost beside the point. For these near eastern people, death shined forth as a woman lingering as meat on a hook.

We might see a similar sort of reality depicted in Job, Isaiah, and in other parts of the Scriptures; Proverbs, the Psalms, etc. And we speak here of the reality of being really dead; the state that the stoic identifies with the negative answer to that question. And yet the dead linger in Sheol. There are shades, there are lingerings. There persist as shadows reflecting the land of the living, the goings on in life, maybe even in a magnified sense. They sit deaf and mute and cold in the depths of the pit, below the freshwater sea.

 Is it not possible, at least, that, as the worshipers of the most high God, Ha Shem, came bearing a great deal of the cosmology common to the Near East, that they shared in the Near Eastern understanding of death, too? "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

And that is something to think about. Now! How this relates to the Second Death at the End of the Ages, when Sheol is destroyed and there are no tombs, that is the next question to ask. Because "Christ is Risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."

I don't quite understand.

My point is that many Near Eastern peoples might not have even understood the exist/not exist conscious/unconscious clinical understanding of death. And so the question of "ECT" or whatever is a foreign question.

What would the Near Eastern peoples understand death as?

Lingering as meat on a hook, in darkness and shadow, with no alleluia.
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« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2013, 06:36:09 AM »

Didyma, I will dare to posit, perhaps I am wrong (hopefully Asteriktos will forgive my common misuse of certain terms) that the Annihilationalist position, as we receive it here, is itself the negative answer to a particular dualistic, clinical, stoic sort of question; a question that "traditonalists" answer in the positive.

That question is preceded by a declaration: "To live is to continue to exist. To die means to cease to exist. For humans, to continue to exist means that the mind/soul is functioning." And so the question then is, "Are those condemned at the last judgment still preserved as immortal, or do they cease to exist?"

But is that how Ancient Near Eastern peoples encountered death? Is that how they encountered life? I don't think we see that in Near Eastern texts. Let us examine, first, a version of the Gilgamesh story that comes down to us through the Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm
(see the last few paragraphs at the bottom).

The hero Gilgamesh requests that the god Enki pull a dead out of the realm of the dead. The dead man gives an account of what he saw there, the state of those who 'exist', or rather 'persist' there. They 'persist' in darkness and shadow, they are eaten by worms, they carry on in reflection of what exists in the realm of the living.

Are they "conscious"? It is difficult to say. At times they are "conscious" for the sake of the story, at times they are what you would see in a deaf, dumb and blind corpse. And for these Mesopotamians, the two are not contradictory. They are somehow depicting the mystery of death. One is almost reminded of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

In another legend (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) about the death of a goddess, the Mesopotamian scribes tell us: "The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook." She eventually leaves the underworld. But for a while, she lingered there as meat on a hook. Is her soul-mind functioning? Is she sensate? I think that's almost beside the point. For these near eastern people, death shined forth as a woman lingering as meat on a hook.

We might see a similar sort of reality depicted in Job, Isaiah, and in other parts of the Scriptures; Proverbs, the Psalms, etc. And we speak here of the reality of being really dead; the state that the stoic identifies with the negative answer to that question. And yet the dead linger in Sheol. There are shades, there are lingerings. There persist as shadows reflecting the land of the living, the goings on in life, maybe even in a magnified sense. They sit deaf and mute and cold in the depths of the pit, below the freshwater sea.

 Is it not possible, at least, that, as the worshipers of the most high God, Ha Shem, came bearing a great deal of the cosmology common to the Near East, that they shared in the Near Eastern understanding of death, too? "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

And that is something to think about. Now! How this relates to the Second Death at the End of the Ages, when Sheol is destroyed and there are no tombs, that is the next question to ask. Because "Christ is Risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."

I don't quite understand.

My point is that many Near Eastern peoples might not have even understood the exist/not exist conscious/unconscious clinical understanding of death. And so the question of "ECT" or whatever is a foreign question.

What would the Near Eastern peoples understand death as?

Lingering as meat on a hook, in darkness and shadow, with no alleluia.

For some reason, that is more terrifying than the hell-fire imagery I grew up with.
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« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2013, 11:46:31 AM »

I would prefer nonexistence to suffering, especially of the eternal variety. I would also gladly make that choice for others if they gave me that power and were in a situation in which I had to act.

The problem with such statements is that we have no idea what "nonexistence" is.  We assume it involves no suffering, or that it's like sleeping (no consciousness of pain) or death (an end to suffering), and so must be better than "suffering".  But "nonexistence" is as useful a category as "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus".  It's a statement necessarily rooted in profound ignorance, but presumes not only to choose such ignorance for oneself, but for others.     

Of course there are no "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus." Unicorns can't digest lasagna. It is you who are ignorant, sir.
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« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2013, 11:50:45 AM »

Of course there are no "homosexual Republican lasagna-eating unicorns with lupus." Unicorns can't digest lasagna. It is you who are ignorant, sir.

Four out of five ain't bad.  That's the same percentage of dentists who recommend any toothpaste I use. 
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« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2013, 02:40:40 PM »

Where it says God will destroy the wicked?
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« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2013, 08:02:59 PM »

Quote
Lingering as meat on a hook, in darkness and shadow, with no alleluia.

For some reason, that is more terrifying than the hell-fire imagery I grew up with.
Yes. But hear the Paschal Nocturne:

"By my own will the earth covers me, O Mother.
But the gatekeepers of Hades tremble as they behold me
Clothed in the bloodstained garment of vengeance:
For on the Cross as God have I struck down my enemies
and I shall rise again and magnify you.

Let the creation rejoice exceedingly, let all those born on earth be glad
For Hades, the enemy, has been despoiled.
Ye women, come to meet me with sweet spices:
For I am delivering Adam and Eve with all their offspring,
and on the third day I shall rise again."
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 08:03:50 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2013, 08:09:03 PM »

What's more clinical than not breathing, no heartbeat, and starting to rot?
What is more mysterious and veiled in the heart of a man?
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« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2013, 08:12:19 AM »

Quote
So for the sanctified by God the Holy Spirit Bourne Again Christians there is no death or nakedness for our souls as we are pardoned from the final judgement, to immediately migrate directly from life in the earthly tent to life with Christ in the heavenly tent.

Is this like Jason Bourne who can jump out of helicopters and wipe out dozens of people with one magazine clip?  'Cause I would really like to meet some Christians like that.  I bet they are rock stars at evangelizing.

You have no idea how much effort it took for me not to post something Jason Bournesque the first time I read the post you quoted. 

I thought it was someone writing in Englandish using the pointless and unnecessary vowels and they like to do.
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« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2013, 08:13:34 AM »

What's more clinical than not breathing, no heartbeat, and starting to rot?
What is more mysterious and veiled in the heart of a man?

Is this poetry for plaque?
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« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2013, 08:16:24 AM »

The Christian view on the immortality of the soul is somewhat different from the Platonist view. The Platonists believed the soul to be immortal because it was so by very nature (vide the Phaedo). The more traditional Christian view is that the soul is immortal by the grace of God. A small, but sometimes important, detail.
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« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2013, 08:18:16 AM »

I believe part of the materialism thing is my fault, as it is a bit of a pet concept I like to post about, and I should not have pushed that part of it. I apologize for that.

No you should push. It ain't that hard. People are on a forum for an somewhat informed discussion about Orthodoxy. If they can't get their minds around these basics, they should stick to sports and absolutely avoid the politics forum.

So, please everyone till I work out the approved list, stick to the sports thread.
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« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2013, 08:21:54 AM »

The Christian view on the immortality of the soul is somewhat different from the Platonist view. The Platonists believed the soul to be immortal because it was so by very nature (vide the Phaedo). The more traditional Christian view is that the soul is immortal by the grace of God. A small, but sometimes important, detail.

So then, the soul is not immortal as such. Really, most of your Fathers were just rearranging chairs on the deck of the Platonic.

That is also not the more "traditional view", perhaps the more Patristic. A huge difference there.
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