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Author Topic: Annihilationism and disbelief in immaterial souls  (Read 10608 times) Average Rating: 0
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Didyma
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« on: September 07, 2013, 05:09:29 PM »

My sister wants to know if it is acceptable for Orthodox to believe in the annihilationist view of Hell, and to disbelieve in the existence of immaterial souls for humans.  I told her that I am almost certain that it isn't, but she wants to be sure.  She said that she heard that Richard Swinburne is an EO annihilationist.  I don't know who that is or if it's true.

FYI:  Annihilationists believe that the damned do not go to any sort of Hell when they die, but are instead destroyed.  I think what my sister's view is basically this: the materialistic souls of humans need the intervention of God to continue to exist (or become immaterial) after death.  Since the damned ultimately do not want God or God's help, God does not make their souls immaterial and thus immortal, effectively allowing them to be destroyed. 
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 05:21:04 PM »

Correction: she believes that the damned souls will be destroyed after the final resurrection.
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 06:09:14 PM »

Annihilationism s not the teaching of the Church, nor is it the teaching of the Church that the soul is mateiral, i.e. part of the body.
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 06:15:28 PM »

I think what my sister's view is basically this: the materialistic souls of humans need the intervention of God to continue to exist (or become immaterial) after death. 

Yes.

Quote
Since the damned ultimately do not want God or God's help, God does not make their souls immaterial and thus immortal, effectively allowing them to be destroyed. 

We believe they continue to exist by the very grace that they reject.

A side note, we believe in the resurrection of the body, for everyone, regardless of where they stand before God.

John 5:28-19
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 08:11:01 PM »

I have heard people claim that there is patristic support for Annihilationism, but I have never actually see anyone come up with any convincing evidence to back that up (although to be fair, I have not really spent a substantial amount of time researching it).  It seems to have become much more of a phenomenon with the Seventh Day Adventist movement.
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 04:56:34 AM »

I have read the gospels, the epistles, the Revelation of John and what I have gathered is that after Christ's resurrection it clearly conveys that Christ is sitting on the right hand of power as the almighty judge.

That being the case, then what happened after Christ's resurrection?

Saint Paul tells us that Christ started the long awaited reurrection of the dead after been raised to glory. Peter's epistle also talks about the many captives that he led up into heaven as the resurrected white angelic cloud. Matthew tells us that he opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints.

But what emphasis all these points is the Revelation of John that points to a heavenly measured court as opposed to the unmeasured outer court of the unbelieving Gentiles. It is also interesting that the two symbolic witnesses represents the witnessing empowerment of the apostolic church to the world at large in a race against time to preach the gospel and call many to Christ.

I have always been interested in why at the altar there are two candles on either side. Then by reading the gospel accounts I have come to the understanding that what happened on the mount of transfiguration was a display of these two candles who were Moses and Elijah representing the Law and the Prophets. Jesus would tell his disciples to tell no man until the transfer of the Holy Ghost anointing by his Holy Ghost breath would commission the 1st century Apostolic church as the two symbolic witnesses of John's revelation to preach the gospel to the unmeasured outer court through the 42 symbolic months. 42 symbolising what the Apostolic Church goes through where 40 represents tribulation and 2 represents their witnessing power. That explains why Jesus sent them of in twos in each town to the jews first to preach the gospel.

Having said that the heavenly measured court must therefore be all the resurrected saints since when the Christ opened the tombs and annulled death on the cross at Calvary. If Revelation of John says that there is both a heavenly measured inner court and an unmeasured outer court then that confirms the already established heavenly kingdom New Jerusalem and that the resurrection of the dead had been commenced by Christ during the time the two symbolic witnesses would be first commissioned in the great commission and  continue witnessesing until the end of harvest.

I gathered if the kingdom exists and Christ is already sitting on the throne of David as judge then judgement had already commenced when he ascended up on high to sit on the right hand of power as the almighty judge in separating the sheep from the goats. Saint Paul does say that all men are destined to die once then immediately face judgement.

So if the Kingdom exists and the resurrection of the dead has started and judgement for all departed has been an ongoing process for every departed individual, then that would explain the 1000 years better in context.

If we have a look at A MILLENIUNISM  we see the letter A implies AN INDEFINITE ARTICLE. I don't hold to any eschatological views whether futurists, preterists, idealists or historicist but what I want to convey is that for the heavenly measured inner court that now appears to be all those who have departed and had taken part in the first resurrection are reigning A 1000 years notice the indefinite article A because there is no time restriction in the established heavenly reign because it is eternal and timeless, where as the unmeasured outer court seems to be placed under a time constraint as to say a race against time to preach the gospel before the end of harvest. Therefore we see a definite article THE 1000 years where a time constraint is placed upon the two witnesses to finish their testimony before they are killed by the beast of the bottomless Pitt who is Satan.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I need all your inputs to discuss these findings.




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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 05:11:12 AM »

Neither is true. Well proofs?
After the Second udgement the rejectors will be put into fire that they choose, they choose to be there forever. It is written in the Bible.
Souls are not material. If it was so they would not be able to pass from material. The Saints and Christ do so.
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 06:29:37 PM »

Neither is true. Well proofs?
After the Second udgement the rejectors will be put into fire that they choose, they choose to be there forever. It is written in the Bible.
Souls are not material. If it was so they would not be able to pass from material. The Saints and Christ do so.

Could you please be clear and succinct and state what isn't true?

1) Heavenly Kingdom of Christ has been established.  Yes/No?

2) Christ is sitting on the throne of David. yes/No?

3) Christ has been judging the nations from when he ascend up on high to sit on the right hand of power as God Almighty. yes/No?

4) The resurrection of the dead was started by Christ after his resurrection and is tied to his resurrection. yes/No?

5) The measured inner heavenly court is already residing with Christ as heavenly judges in the heavenly country New Jerusalem. Yes/No?

You said second judgment. What is second judgement in context to Christ's resurrection? What do you mean by second judgement and in what context?

Who are they that choose to be there and where is it written in the Bible?

This statement you made is really is disconcerting to say the least:

Quote
Souls are not material. If it was so they would not be able to pass from material. The Saints and Christ do so.

Are you saying that Christ along with the Saints are immaterial souls?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 06:30:47 PM by Serpentslayer » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 07:03:57 PM »

Neither is true. Well proofs?
After the Second udgement the rejectors will be put into fire that they choose, they choose to be there forever. It is written in the Bible.
Souls are not material. If it was so they would not be able to pass from material. The Saints and Christ do so.

Could you please be clear and succinct and state what isn't true?

1) Heavenly Kingdom of Christ has been established.  Yes/No?

2) Christ is sitting on the throne of David. yes/No?

3) Christ has been judging the nations from when he ascend up on high to sit on the right hand of power as God Almighty. yes/No?

4) The resurrection of the dead was started by Christ after his resurrection and is tied to his resurrection. yes/No?

5) The measured inner heavenly court is already residing with Christ as heavenly judges in the heavenly country New Jerusalem. Yes/No?

You said second judgment. What is second judgement in context to Christ's resurrection? What do you mean by second judgement and in what context?

Who are they that choose to be there and where is it written in the Bible?

This statement you made is really is disconcerting to say the least:

Quote
Souls are not material. If it was so they would not be able to pass from material. The Saints and Christ do so.

Are you saying that Christ along with the Saints are immaterial souls?

I believe Nikolaos Greek was referring to my OP.
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 07:09:21 PM »

In reference to your other posts, that's what I thought.  Except for one of Melodist's comments:

I think what my sister's view is basically this: the materialistic souls of humans need the intervention of God to continue to exist (or become immaterial) after death.

Yes.


The Orthodox believe that souls are material?
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 07:20:15 PM »

Clearly souls are material in that they are created; if they were truly immaterial (like God) then they would be uncreated and eternal; as it stands they do need the grace of God to help them continue existing. Of course in normal discussion people speak of souls as immaterial, as a sort of dumbing-down or simplification of theology so as not to confuse the masses; and in most cases this is an accurate enough way of speaking. Anyway, regardless, the Church has never taught annihilationism, so far as I can tell.
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2013, 07:46:52 PM »

The Orthodox believe that souls are material?

Without getting into that,  my point was that everything requires God's grace to exist, including our souls, whether or not they are united with our physical bodies. Therefore, if our souls continue to exist beyond physical death to this world, then it is only by being sustained in existence by God.
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2013, 08:39:17 PM »

Clearly souls are material in that they are created; if they were truly immaterial (like God) then they would be uncreated and eternal; as it stands they do need the grace of God to help them continue existing. Of course in normal discussion people speak of souls as immaterial, as a sort of dumbing-down or simplification of theology so as not to confuse the masses; and in most cases this is an accurate enough way of speaking. Anyway, regardless, the Church has never taught annihilationism, so far as I can tell.

What do you mean a soul is material. In terms of the definition material it is formed by atoms, molecules and sub molecular particles that articulate certain processes and functions. The materialistic worldly realm we live in is deterministic by nature and is by definition separate from the living consciousness that is the mind of each individual who is unique and separate from the mind and consciousness of his peers.

Therefore a soul is an immaterial unknown in quantity and mass that is NOT deterministic by natural processes and functions.

The soul identifies who we are at a conscious level minus our earthly experiences. It simply is a immaterial conscious state of being aware and the ability to reflect and discern love, charity, jealousy and other causal effects that the soul manifests in the earthly realm through its experiences.

Having said all that my question is that the soul WITHOUT the resurrection body is a state of nakedness according to Saint Paul's testimony and that is why he emphatically declared that we are given The Holy Spirit in earnest so that we are not left naked WITHOUT a resurrection body after we die, but rather be clothed with immortality. The word clothed is in context to a heavenly body of an angel.

Since God the Holy Spirit indwells the justified in Christ believer, therefore it is he who sees the question of salvation through from sanctification right up to resurrection as he is THE RESURRECTION. So that those who are sealed are sealed not by Christ's earthly coming when the world has ended (End of Harvest) but Christ's appearing which is when the thief (death) comes in a day and hour that no man knows when he ends up destroying (killing) your earthly house (body). That is why Saint Paul states there is already (present tense participle) a heavenly house awaiting us to be clothed with ONCE our earthly house is DISOLVED, meaning it dies. That is why Saint Paul would say to his immediate audience that there is the crown of righteousness already laid up for me after I die but not only me, but also those who love Christ at his APPEARING (present tense participle). This APPEARING is in context to when Saint Paul was to be offered as a drink offering meaning that he was going to be martyred.

So it is clear that a Christian who is sealed for the resurrection by God the Holy Spirit will in fact be resurrected by the Holy Spirit who also raised up Jesus (Romans 8:11). Therefore judgement as it stands is immediately after a Christian believer dies and not after the End of Harvest. For it is written those that don't have part in the first resurrection stay dead as disembodied souls in outer darkness (conscious state of awareness) until the end of harvest when Christ puts them out of their misery by the second death, the death of the soul in the lake of fire.

So for a sancitified christian by the hand of God the Holy Spirit there is no second judgement but rather only the first to be rewarded for the things done in the Adam One body, whilst the wicked will face both the first and second judgements and as it is written they will die twice, first their material body will perish, then their immaterial body their soul will also perish, in the lake of fire at the end of harvest. That is why it is written blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection for the second death, the death of the soul is to no effect (has no power over them) and there and then is the confirmation that there is no second judgement for a sanctified believer in Christ.
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2013, 09:08:21 PM »

What do you mean a soul is material.

See here for something to start with. I am currently working on a more precise working out of it, though I don't expect to have made much progress any time soon.
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 09:48:38 PM »

I'm pretty sure Christ's words concerning when all will be called from the grave and St Paul's words concerning the dead in Christ rising first point to the general resurrection and final judgment at the second coming.
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2013, 09:55:38 PM »

What do you mean a soul is material.

See here for something to start with. I am currently working on a more precise working out of it, though I don't expect to have made much progress any time soon.

God likes a straight answer, either a Yes/No?

According to the definition of material below:

Quote
ma·te·ri·al 
/məˈti(ə)rēəl/
Noun
The matter from which a thing is or can be made.
Adjective
Denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit.
Synonyms
noun.     matter - fabric - substance - cloth
adjective.     physical - corporeal - substantial - bodily

Note: Material is not a mind that relates to the living consciousness and is not a spirit which is the essence of life itself.

Material must be quantified and qualified, fro example:

Quote
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So please answer the question directly according to the proper definition without redefining according to your own definition or definition of others!

Do you consider a soul material or immaterial? Yes/No!
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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2013, 09:57:48 PM »

The answer is obvious.
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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2013, 10:16:21 PM »

I'm pretty sure Christ's words concerning when all will be called from the grave and St Paul's words concerning the dead in Christ rising first point to the general resurrection and final judgment at the second coming.

Appear-ING as far as Saint Paul was concerned was in context to when his earthly body would immediately be dissolved upon his martyrdom and hence that is why he uses ING, by signifying a present tense particle of the verb to be.

This appear-ING is all throughout the epistles where even John uses the immediate verb to be in

Quote
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Now to John and his immediate audience it is a verb in the immediate present tense when the antichrists were on their heals and martyrdom seemed only an hour away.

John uses these clichés to identify with his immediate audience the 1st century Apostolic Church that they are soon to face persecution onto death. This is the context of the thief who destroys the earthly house and also is coherent to Saint Paul's testimony when he says to his immediate audience that after our bodies are dissolved, in the twinkling of an eye we will put on immortality, because we who are given the Spirit in earnest will not be found naked and will be clothed with the resurrection spirit body like our lord, that is a heavenly angelic body.

Again there is no final judgement for a sanctified by God the Holy Spirit faithful in Christ, by saying this you deny the PRESENT power of Christ's Holy Spirit who is the RESURRECTION. Also by implying that God the Holy Spirit doesn't complete the question of salvation in every sanctified believer that he single handedly sanctifies after they die and that the believer is left as a disembodied immaterial soul (living consciousness) without a resurrection garment until Christ comes the second time, some 2000 years in the making to finish what his Holy Spirit has not, is the complete opposite to what scripture teaches.

The theology of a second coming resurrection denies the present power of God the Holy Spirit as the RESURRECTION in the same way Martha denied the present power of Christ who stated that he is the RESURRECTION. The reason Jesus wept was because of the people's unbelief, that right there and then the power of God was to be manifest, yet they were looking to the past and the future but not the present.

It was the same spirit of unbelief that Gideon projected, when he questioned God after God told him that he will make him into a man of valour. Gideon too denied the present power of God to achieve this right there and then.

Take for example the Samaritan women at the well, she too would not look at Christ in the present and thereby deny the power of God that was present in Christ right there and then by replying to Christ that when the messiah comes he will teach us everything. Christ replied back saying I AM he! Notice he said I AM and not I WAS or I WILL BE!

As far as the second coming doctrine is concerned this is in reference to the seventh trumpet of God being sounded by the Christ when he comes as the brilliant angelic light with his already resurrected white angelic cloud, who are the resurrected saints throughout the great harvest from when the Christ opened the tombs right up the last to be invited as the wedding guests to the wedding of the lamb of God at the end of the world (End of Harvest).

This final coming of Christ is in context to a new heaven and a new earth, when he declares time no longer the earthly realm as we know it is dissolved forever and the eternal timeless heavenly realm New Jerusalem comes into full view as the only ark of safety for all the resurrected saints throughout the period of grace that encompassed the first and only resurrection.

As far as the end judgement for the remaining dead that were cast into outer darkness as disembodied souls is concerned, these are they that had no part in the resurrection of the dead, they are literally awaiting their execution in the lake of fire, which is the second death, the death of the soul.

So for the sanctified by God the Holy Spirit Bourne Again Christians there is no death or nakedness for our souls as we are pardoned from the final judgement, to immediately migrate directly from life in the earthly tent to life with Christ in the heavenly tent.

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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2013, 08:47:28 AM »

Who's the Orthodox guy that my sister heard was annihilationist?  Does anyone know?  I'll try to get her to elaborate her views a little more so that you can be more clear as to what exactly the Church doesn't affirm.
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2013, 09:22:30 AM »

I don't know much at all about Swinburne. It appears he spent his last years as an Orthodox Christian, but his apologetic/ theological work has very little influence in the Orthodox world. He seems to get more attention among certain sectors of Christian academia in the West.

Annihilationism is definitely not taught by the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2013, 07:58:03 PM »

his earthly body would immediately be dissolved upon his martyrdom

Where is this recorded as historically happening?

Quote
after our bodies are dissolved, in the twinkling of an eye we will put on immortality, because we who are given the Spirit in earnest will not be found naked and will be clothed with the resurrection spirit body like our lord, that is a heavenly angelic body.

This happens at the second coming.

Quote
Again there is no final judgement for a sanctified by God the Holy Spirit faithful in Christ,

Everyone faces the final judgment, not all are condemned.

Quote
by saying this you deny the PRESENT power of Christ's Holy Spirit who is the RESURRECTION.

Believing in the general resurrection at the second coming doesn't deny the power of God to raise the dead, but rather affirms it.

Quote
Also by implying that God the Holy Spirit doesn't complete the question of salvation in every sanctified believer that he single handedly sanctifies after they die and that the believer is left as a disembodied immaterial soul (living consciousness) without a resurrection garment until Christ comes the second time, some 2000 years in the making to finish what his Holy Spirit has not, is the complete opposite to what scripture teaches.

And the dead in Christ shall rise first...

Quote
The theology of a second coming resurrection denies the present power of God the Holy Spirit as the RESURRECTION in the same way Martha denied the present power of Christ who stated that he is the RESURRECTION.

No it doesn't.

Quote
The reason Jesus wept was because of the people's unbelief, that right there and then the power of God was to be manifest, yet they were looking to the past and the future but not the present.

Why doth the Evangelist carefully in several places mention that “He wept,” and that, “He groaned”? That thou mayest learn that He had of a truth put on our nature. For when this Evangelist is remarkable for uttering great things concerning Christ more than the others, in matters relating to the body, here he also speaketh much more humbly than they. For instance, concerning His death he hath said nothing of the kind; the other Evangelists declare that He was exceedingly sorrowful, that He was in an agony; but John, on the contrary, saith, that He even cast the officers backwards. So that he hath made up here what is omitted there, by mentioning His grief. When speaking of His death, Christ saith, “I have power to lay down My life” ( c. x. 18 ), and then He uttereth no lowly word; therefore at the Passion they attribute to Him much that is human, to show the reality of the Dispensation. And Matthew proves this by the Agony, the trouble, the trembling, and the sweat; but John by His sorrow. For had He not been of our nature, He would not once and again have been mastered by grief. What did Jesus? He made no defense with regard to their charges; for why should He silence by words those who were soon to be silenced by deeds? a means less annoying, and more adapted to shame them.

Quote
It was the same spirit of unbelief that Gideon projected, when he questioned God after God told him that he will make him into a man of valour. Gideon too denied the present power of God to achieve this right there and then.

I don't deny that God has the power to do anything, only that He will exercise that power in a manner consistent with how He has revealed that He will. In fact, I celebrate that he has the power to do it in the present age every year on August 15th, and celebrate it as a sign of what awaits all who die in Christ.

Quote
Take for example the Samaritan women at the well, she too would not look at Christ in the present and thereby deny the power of God that was present in Christ right there and then by replying to Christ that when the messiah comes he will teach us everything. Christ replied back saying I AM he! Notice he said I AM and not I WAS or I WILL BE!

Your bolded words remind me of one of the hymns in Revelation. He said that He is who He is, not that He is there to presently teach her everything, even though He did promise His disciples that the Holy Spirit wold teach them all things on the day of Pentecost (speaking in the future tense of when He said those words.

Quote
This final coming of Christ is in context to a new heaven and a new earth, when he declares time no longer the earthly realm as we know it is dissolved forever and the eternal timeless heavenly realm New Jerusalem comes into full view as the only ark of safety for all the resurrected saints throughout the period of grace that encompassed the first and only resurrection.

This is why it is appointed for the resurrection to happen at this time.

Quote
As far as the end judgement for the remaining dead that were cast into outer darkness as disembodied souls is concerned, these are they that had no part in the resurrection of the dead, they are literally awaiting their execution in the lake of fire, which is the second death, the death of the soul.

And what about receiving in the body the things done in the body?

Quote
So for the sanctified by God the Holy Spirit Bourne Again Christians there is no death or nakedness for our souls as we are pardoned from the final judgement, to immediately migrate directly from life in the earthly tent to life with Christ in the heavenly tent.

To say that those who stand at Christ's right hand at the final judgment won't be at the final judgement is to deny the nature of the final judgement everywhere that it is mentioned.

I find it odd that you reject the resurrection of the body after quoting where Jesus invites the Apostles to physically touch His body.
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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2013, 08:03:19 PM »

Quote
So for the sanctified by God the Holy Spirit Bourne Again Christians there is no death or nakedness for our souls as we are pardoned from the final judgement, to immediately migrate directly from life in the earthly tent to life with Christ in the heavenly tent.

Is this like Jason Bourne who can jump out of helicopters and wipe out dozens of people with one magazine clip?  'Cause I would really like to meet some Christians like that.  I bet they are rock stars at evangelizing.
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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2013, 08:45:16 PM »

Quote
So for the sanctified by God the Holy Spirit Bourne Again Christians there is no death or nakedness for our souls as we are pardoned from the final judgement, to immediately migrate directly from life in the earthly tent to life with Christ in the heavenly tent.

Is this like Jason Bourne who can jump out of helicopters and wipe out dozens of people with one magazine clip?  'Cause I would really like to meet some Christians like that.  I bet they are rock stars at evangelizing.

You have no idea how much effort it took for me not to post something Jason Bournesque the first time I read the post you quoted. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2013, 08:58:45 PM »

I don't hold to any man made doctrine concerning eschatology such as futurists, preterists, historicists or idealists.

I am however confused what annihilationism means in terms of judgement (both first and second), the resurrection of the dead, the heavenly Kingdom of Christ, the identity of Christ and the FINAL coming of Christ.

Can anyone shed some light to why Christians are defining themselves by these human terms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

Quote
Annihilationism (from Latin annihilō) is a Christian belief that apart from salvation the final punishment of human beings results in their total destruction (annihilation) rather than their everlasting torment. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life.

If Annihilation is the question of the state of the soul after the person dies, corresponding to the first death, that is the death of the earthly body, then scripture is clear about the soul as being an immaterial conscious state, where it is either clothed with the heavenly body like our Lord's or it is sent into a state of conscious outer darkness away from the light of The Lord.

However without looking at any scholastic definition we are told in scripture that there are two judgements. The first is when we are all destined to die once, then immediately following is the FIRST JUDGEMENT. The other is the SECOND and FINAL JUDGEMENT at the end of the great harvest when Christ sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer.

If we contextualise what scripture is teaching, we can understand that the first judgement pertains to when the earthly house is dissolved and we come face to face with Christ to be judged by him for the works done in the body, for that is what is being clearly conveyed by the gospel and epistle accounts that when we die, we are immediately to face the first judgement.

This first judgement becomes the white throne judgement of Christ who sits on the right hand of power as God almighty and judges the nations from when he ascended up on high into New Jerusalem to when he comes for the final time to declare the end of all Adam One life including the earthly realm (first heaven and fist earth have passed away). It is clear that the first judgement is in context to what the epistles teach as the Lord's appear-ING. The word APPEARING is the present tense participle of the verb APPEAR to be.

Quote
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now having said that we look towards scripture to how God sees these two judgements:

As The Lord clearly conveyed that there are two judgements, one for the body which is the first death and one for the soul, which is the second death.

Quote
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So we know the term hell is used to imply two deaths for both the material Adam One body and the immaterial soul.

It becomes clear and succinct that first resurrection is tied to the FIRST JUDGEMENT after our earthly bodies are dissolved. Notice the second death that is awaiting those who have no part in the resurrection of the dead after the first judgement. These disembodied immaterial conscious souls are said to be in a state of conscious darkness, a hell as a state of being.

Notice most importantly that the thousand years separate the first and the second deaths correlating to the first and second judgements. It is very easy to see. Once you discern scriptural facts then you can understand in context to the 1000 years that first judgement of the separating of the sheep and goats has been happening for the last almost 2000 years when people die to face the first judgement at the present tense participle verb to be in the LORD's APPEARING. Both the good and the wicked will face the first judgement, in a day and hour unbeknown to them, to either be clothed with the heavenly spirit bodies like our Lord's (first resurrection) or are sent into outer darkness of hell awaiting final execution in the lake of fire.

The versus in Matthew 24:26:51 are a prelude to the day and hour that no man knows when we are destined to die, when our earthly body is dissolved, then to face the first judgement at the Lord's APPEARING.

Quote
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Notice the verse below describe those wicked after the first judgement, after their earthly body was dissolved who were not chosen as sheep were sent of as goats who were waiting in hell (immaterial conscious state of being) until their day of execution where the context of the second death is to put a permanent end to the disembodied soul.

Notice also that death was also swallowed up by the lake of fire because after this second judgement, there is no more Adam One life remaining as all those who were chosen to be invited as guests to the wedding of the lamb of God at the end of the great harvest, are already present through the first resurrection (resurrection of the dead) that encompassed the 1000 symbolic years from when the Christ opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints and took them into New Jerusalem as the heavenly inner measured court of the redeemed from the world. (Revelation 11:1-3)

The thousand years therefore becomes across the age of grace from when the Apostolic Church was commissioned to preach the gospel as the two symbolic witnesses of John's Revelation wearing the priestly SACKCLOTH FROM TOP TO BOTTOM as written in Revelation 11:3.

Quote
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2013, 09:03:44 PM »

This thread takes me back to when I used to argue with Protestants in chat rooms. Except I don't remember being this disgusted. Maybe I'm getting more curmudgeonly in my old age.
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2013, 09:12:48 PM »

The word BOURNE is to be carried or transported by. The word BORNE AGAIN is the Adjective of BORN by the reason that justified by the blood of Christ faithful are CARRIED BY God the Holy Spirit in their essential walk by faith with the Holy Heavenly Father.


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borne 
/bôrn/
Adjective
Carried or transported by: "waterborne bacteria"; "insect-borne pollen".
Synonyms
born
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2013, 09:39:52 PM »

I don't hold to any man made doctrine
Unlike on a certain other forum I believe you frequent, this sort of rhetoric doesn't do you much good here.
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2013, 09:51:41 PM »

Many prophesy to be Christians but they are far from Christ. Jesus taught us that you will know them by their works, in discerning whether they are wielded by God the Holy Spirit or they are wielded by spiritual forces of darkness in high places.

We look at the beatitudes of Christ to discern the real Christians from the fraudsters who say Lord, Lord and Lord but inside they are not his sheep but ravenous wolves who are amidst the sheep, dressed up as the grandmother in the little red riding hood novel.


THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS


"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


First and for most is the first step to the stair way to Christ's heaven, is to recognise that you are a filthy rotten sinner in need of grace. You need to be a broken and contrite heart and regard yourself as a person who is absolutely broke and has nothing to offer to Christ. This is what is meant by the POOR IN SPIRIT. Many Christians from the way they speak these days, don't even appear to be on the first sequential ladder rung to the stair way to Christ's heaven. They are full of malice and putrid hatred.

Rather than having this spiritual attitude:

Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to the cross I cling

They conspire to bring division to the body of Christ by persecuting the true Christians and followers of Christ.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.


Before one can mourn spiritual they must have already stepped on the first sequential rung on the ladder in recognising how poor and miserable they really are without Christ. So these true Christians are mourning their broken, poor and contrite spirit amongst all the worldly evil that surrounds them.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.


Once your have stepped on the first and second sequential rung by recognising your poor state of spirit as a rotten sinner, then you mourned for your state of being, then you become meek in the way you treat others by the way Christ treated others and not according to the way the world treats others.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.


The fourth rung in sequence will bring you into God's light by always knocking and asking God to give you spiritual drink and feed you the heavenly bread that is his Holy Word through the sequence of first recognising your spiritual impoverished state, mourning for your state of being, showing meekness as God showed meekness to others.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.


Once you step on the fifth rung of the sequential ladder you then realise how much merciful God has been to you and you like Christ show mercy to theirs by obeying Christ's instruction to forgive and care for your enemies. This fifth ladder rung cannot be achieved unless the person follows through the first sequential four.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.


I like this one, you see once you have asked for Christ's righteousness and mercy to be manifest through you, you then become circumcised in the heart and become a pure bride for Christ. It is at this point that you can come into the presence of God. This is the sixth sequential ladder rung to the stair way to Christ's heaven.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.


Once you have being purified in the heart by God, you then can follow in the steps of the Prince of Peace Christ Jesus to be true witnesses for his cause.  

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."


Lastly we see here the eight sequential ladder rung to Christ's stair way to heaven by understanding the IF THEN CONDITION that must happen to satisfy the IF clause.

You must be persecuted by the world whether they are secular or Christian for this is the necessary result of having come to the eighth rung, because now you are well and truly in Satan's radar and he will send enemy after enemy after you, to persecute and to kill you spiritual or physically in order to silence you. He doesn't fear you, he fears the Christ in you:

Quote
1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

Therefore persecution is inevitable by the hands of the captive vessels who are wielded by the spiritual powers of darkness in high places.

The IF THEN becomes clearly seen in every Christian believer as the countless enemies who are sent by satan to silence them is evident, because the wicked in high places know that the truth of Christ is in you.

Saint Paul tells Timothy the IF THEN conditional statement that applies to the true church and that is:

IF YOU SUFFER PERSECUTION FOR CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS
         THEN YOU ARE LIVING GODLY IN CHRIST JESUS

Quote
2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


Where are many prophesying Christians on the sequential LADDER RUNG according to Christ's beatitudes?


Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2013, 10:01:37 PM »

This thread takes me back to when I used to argue with Protestants in chat rooms. Except I don't remember being this disgusted. Maybe I'm getting more curmudgeonly in my old age.

Do you have the right to be disgusted! Really do you!

Are you in a position to be disgusted?

Come on spit it out, what are you disgusted about, me or Christ?

I live not for myself but Christ. So if you have an issue internally speak it out or forever hold your peace!

Don't say you are disgusted by not mentioning why or to whom you are saying it to and just walk away. You have committed a cowardly act!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 10:06:04 PM by Serpentslayer » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2013, 10:15:51 PM »

You have committed a cowardly act!

 Cheesy I like your style.
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2013, 10:53:24 PM »

This thread takes me back to when I used to argue with Protestants in chat rooms. Except I don't remember being this disgusted. Maybe I'm getting more curmudgeonly in my old age.

+1
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2013, 10:54:27 PM »

This thread takes me back to when I used to argue with Protestants in chat rooms. Except I don't remember being this disgusted. Maybe I'm getting more curmudgeonly in my old age.

Do you have the right to be disgusted! Really do you!

Are you in a position to be disgusted?

Come on spit it out, what are you disgusted about, me or Christ?

I live not for myself but Christ. So if you have an issue internally speak it out or forever hold your peace!

Don't say you are disgusted by not mentioning why or to whom you are saying it to and just walk away. You have committed a cowardly act!

Heresy is disgusting.
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2013, 10:59:40 PM »

I don't hold to any man made doctrine
Unlike on a certain other forum I believe you frequent, this sort of rhetoric doesn't do you much good here.

Can you speak and specify what sort of rhetoric you are implying to and to whom?

When you finally come around to explaining this rhetoric HuhHuh that you have mysteriously veiled in the secret place of your heart, because you failed to specify what this rhetoric is that you are implying. If you had specified it in a genuine and transparent manner, then the body of Christ can decide by their God given right to determine if it true or false and to whether it is edifying to the body of Christ.

You are not the judge in this matter to be a law giver,  a judge and an executioner, even though you make your self to be by the mannerism of this fallacious statement of yours.

This is the exact attitude that Christ rebuked, when he rebuked the self centred arrogant Pharisees. This attitude is that of a lawyer who states something in opposition to an individual without giving the reason to why, how, when and where, then walks away as if to imply that the verdict of guilt is already placed on that individual.

Is this what you have learnt from Christ as a Christian to condemn others in the fashion that you have served this fallacious and judgemental statement of yours.

God be my witness I forgive for your judgemental statement that you have made against me and thereby rebuke and correct you to abide in Christ and all his eight beatitudes.
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2013, 11:06:53 PM »

This thread takes me back to when I used to argue with Protestants in chat rooms. Except I don't remember being this disgusted. Maybe I'm getting more curmudgeonly in my old age.

Do you have the right to be disgusted! Really do you!

Are you in a position to be disgusted?

Come on spit it out, what are you disgusted about, me or Christ?

I live not for myself but Christ. So if you have an issue internally speak it out or forever hold your peace!

Don't say you are disgusted by not mentioning why or to whom you are saying it to and just walk away. You have committed a cowardly act!

Heresy is disgusting.

Who are you a rotten sinner like me and all men to accuse me of heresy?

Who are you to say that you are disgusted?

Are you your own or are you Christ's, because this attitude of yours is not in harmony with the beatitudes of Christ and is unbecoming of a Christian.

You, you amongst all men judge me?

Who do you think you are!

Your actions have been noted by the body of Christ to how you have wrongly judged and persecuted a member of the body of Christ.

I urge you to start on the first rung of the sequential ladder of Christ's beatitudes and recognise how spiritually impoverished you truly are as I once did and do today.

Your ability to lash out at a member of the body of Christ is unlawful according to the law of love (agape). You can't compete with the truth that The Lord has placed in me on a spiritual scriptural manner and so you revert to spiritual assassination by wanting me to be evicted from this forum.

What does that make you?

Personal attack removed by moderator  -PtA
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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2013, 11:09:44 PM »

Have a look at yourselves seriously you are attacking me like a pack of wolves, like a bunch of hyenas.

This is totally uncalled for!

May The Lord have mercy on your souls.
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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2013, 11:12:45 PM »

This thread takes me back to when I used to argue with Protestants in chat rooms. Except I don't remember being this disgusted. Maybe I'm getting more curmudgeonly in my old age.

Do you have the right to be disgusted! Really do you!

Are you in a position to be disgusted?

Come on spit it out, what are you disgusted about, me or Christ?

I live not for myself but Christ. So if you have an issue internally speak it out or forever hold your peace!

Don't say you are disgusted by not mentioning why or to whom you are saying it to and just walk away. You have committed a cowardly act!

Heresy is disgusting.

Who are you a rotten sinner like me and all men to accuse me of heresy?

Who are you to say that you are disgusted?

Are you your own or are you Christ's, because this attitude of yours is not in harmony with the beatitudes of Christ and is unbecoming of a Christian.

You, you amongst all men judge me?

Who do you think you are!

Your actions have been noted by the body of Christ to how you have wrongly judged and persecuted a member of the body of Christ.

I urge you to start on the first rung of the sequential ladder of Christ's beatitudes and recognise how spiritually impoverished you truly are as I once did and do today.

Your ability to lash out at a member of the body of Christ is unlawful according to the law of love (agape). You can't compete with the truth that The Lord has placed in me on a spiritual scriptural manner and so you revert to spiritual assassination by wanting me to be evicted from this forum.

What does that make you?

Personal attack removed by moderator  -MK

You aren't a member of the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2013, 01:02:11 AM »

Have a look at yourselves seriously you are attacking me like a pack of wolves, like a bunch of hyenas.

This is totally uncalled for!

May The Lord have mercy on your souls.


The Christian F-bomb.  Well played. 
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2013, 01:08:07 AM »

Tis a shame he won't be around long enough to have more fun with this.  I give him a week.

SerpentSlayer, if you come on to an ORTHODOX Christian forum, and spout all kinds of silliness and theories that are contrary to ORTHODOX Church teachings, you can kind of expect everyone to look at you a bit strangely.  If I went to your protestant forums and started posting akathists to the Theotokos, I'm sure I would receive a negative reaction as well.
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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2013, 04:45:11 AM »

Tis a shame he won't be around long enough to have more fun with this.  I give him a week.

SerpentSlayer, if you come on to an ORTHODOX Christian forum, and spout all kinds of silliness and theories that are contrary to ORTHODOX Church teachings, you can kind of expect everyone to look at you a bit strangely.  If I went to your protestant forums and started posting akathists to the Theotokos, I'm sure I would receive a negative reaction as well.

I would hope that denial of basic Christian doctrines like the resurrection of (all) the dead and the universality of the final judgment would be just as much accepted by most Protestants as it is here.
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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2013, 07:55:19 AM »

Tis a shame he won't be around long enough to have more fun with this.  I give him a week.

SerpentSlayer, if you come on to an ORTHODOX Christian forum, and spout all kinds of silliness and theories that are contrary to ORTHODOX Church teachings, you can kind of expect everyone to look at you a bit strangely.  If I went to your protestant forums and started posting akathists to the Theotokos, I'm sure I would receive a negative reaction as well.

I would hope that denial of basic Christian doctrines like the resurrection of (all) the dead and the universality of the final judgment would be just as much accepted by most Protestants as it is here.
I would hope that as well, but when you have 40k denominations, there is a good chance that there is a certain percentage who have come up with their own opinion on the matter.
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2013, 09:37:21 AM »

Have a look at yourselves seriously you are attacking me like a pack of wolves, like a bunch of hyenas.

This is totally uncalled for!

May The Lord have mercy on your souls.



or



I am confused.  Baffled, even.
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2013, 10:16:00 AM »

I really want to post a reaction face to this thread, but whenever I try there's just one of those ? boxes.  I'll just have to go with typed ones for now.  Here you go:

...........................................________
....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,
.............................,.-”...................................“-.,
.........................,/...............................................”:,
.....................,?......................................................\,
.................../...........................................................,}
................./......................................................,:`^`..}
.............../...................................................,:”........./
..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`........_/
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../
...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`.....}............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|..............`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\
................................`:,,...........................`\..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_\..........._,-%.......`\
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`\
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2013, 10:23:25 AM »

I believe this one may properly express your thoughts on this thread.  Grin

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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Didyma
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I believe we youths are using anime pictures now


« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2013, 10:39:48 AM »

^Yep. That's about right.  It's too bad I can't tap into my vast arsenal of reaction faces.  TT__TT 

Anyway, I asked my sister to elaborate on her views so that we could respond more specifically.
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Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2013, 07:10:50 PM »

Tis a shame he won't be around long enough to have more fun with this.  I give him a week.

SerpentSlayer, if you come on to an ORTHODOX Christian forum, and spout all kinds of silliness and theories that are contrary to ORTHODOX Church teachings, you can kind of expect everyone to look at you a bit strangely.  If I went to your protestant forums and started posting akathists to the Theotokos, I'm sure I would receive a negative reaction as well.

I would hope that denial of basic Christian doctrines like the resurrection of (all) the dead and the universality of the final judgment would be just as much accepted by most Protestants as it is here.
I would hope that as well, but when you have 40k denominations, there is a good chance that there is a certain percentage who have come up with their own opinion on the matter.

That's not counting all those denominations of one a la Alfred and Data Swami.
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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