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Author Topic: Fellowship with the Campus Crusade for Christ  (Read 1389 times) Average Rating: 0
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xOrthodox4Christx
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« on: September 06, 2013, 11:06:00 AM »

Nope. No Orthodox Fellowship here, but the Campus Crusade for Christ is here. Here's the question. I know the council of Laodicea, council of Carthage or something prohibits fellowship and praying with heretics and schismatics.

Okay, given that, would fellowship with the Campus Crusade for Christ be fellowship of heretics and schismatics and as a result a violation of Canon Law?

Would this be okay?

How far does that council that says all those darned things go?
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 11:15:39 AM »

Contact an old friend who grew up.in our parish with my children and now the National Chaplain for the OCF, Fr. Michael Ellis now of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh. He can point you in the right direction and put you in contact with other Orthodox students. http://www.ocf.net/pages/RegionalReps.aspx
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 11:16:57 AM »

Contact an old friend who grew up.in our parish with my children and now the National Chaplain for the OCF, Fr. Michael Ellis now of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh. He can point you in the right direction and put you in contact with other Orthodox students. http://www.ocf.net/pages/RegionalReps.aspx

I already know a few students, that's not really what I am asking.

Would it be against the Church Canon Law to be in fellowship with these... fellows?
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 11:21:03 AM »

Whether or not it violates canon law isn't so much an issue as whether you're going to get yourself into a situation that will take you away from the Church.
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 11:23:19 AM »


Why not just form a chapter of the OCF?

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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 11:25:53 AM »

Whether or not it violates canon law isn't so much an issue as whether you're going to get yourself into a situation that will take you away from the Church.

I will meditate on this...
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 11:27:11 AM »

Define fellowship.  Hanging out with them isn't bad.  If you start believing as they do, well, that's different.
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2013, 11:30:19 AM »

1. If you are an inquirer, you aren't bound by canon law, so at this point the issue is moot.
2. If you become Orthodox, it would be something you would discuss with your priest.
3. Technically, if you are Orthodox and following the plain reading of the canon law, you would not pray with them.
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 01:59:59 AM »

Yes, go ahead those canons are outdated obviously!

If Patriarchs do not need to follow them, I am sure you don't need to follow them!

Joining this fellowship will be a union of love of brothers and the work of the holy spirit and such ect ect ect

oh, I almost forgot

That is why we pray for the "Union of all"! (this is quoted without mistake always!)
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 02:22:35 AM »


Why not just form a chapter of the OCF?



+1

You may also consider fellowshipping with Campus Crusade for Christ with the goal of promoting Orthodoxy. You can find plenty of literature by Father Peter Gilquist, who was one of the founding members Campus Crusade for Christ and led a mass conversion of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy. Perhaps you could print out some info and give it those involved with Campus Crusade for Christ. Be respectful and tactful of course. Just an idea.  Smiley

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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 10:22:11 PM »

I have decided against it in accord with the Canon, but more importantly because of the bad reputation they give to Christianity. They were of the Fundamentalist brand... You know, anti-Catholic, Bible-thumping and Young Earth.

I'd rather just pray in the Campus garden by myself than go to their crazy seminars.

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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2013, 10:28:58 AM »

IIRC the canon talks about celebrating the Liturgy, but I could be wrong. Anyways, CCFC are nutcases..the whole lot of em.
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2013, 10:47:02 AM »

Define fellowship.  Hanging out with them isn't bad.  If you start believing as they do, well, that's different.
as it would only involve drinking tea, i'd find more engaging hang-outs.
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2013, 11:51:31 AM »

Define fellowship.  Hanging out with them isn't bad.  If you start believing as they do, well, that's different.
as it would only involve drinking tea, i'd find more engaging hang-outs.

Agreed!
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2013, 04:47:22 AM »

   From what I have seen of CCF, they promote a revivalist take on the Gospel that doesn't explain a sacramental worldview, and politically they have ties to the Right and their religious views are congruent with that sort of politics.  I find it odd the local Episcopalians sponsor CCF, though they do have a tendency to be out of step with the national church.   I was always uncomfortable with that aspect of the local Episcopalians, and this is among several reasons I am not one.
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 08:40:41 AM »

Quote
You may also consider fellowshipping with Campus Crusade for Christ with the goal of promoting Orthodoxy.

I think that's a great idea. I can't help but to think of Fr. Peter Gilquist, author of Becoming Orthodox, who helped start the Campus Crusades while at the same time he had no idea that God was working on moving him to Orthodoxy. How many more like him are participating in the organization? Jesus was often criticized for going to the lost and meeting with them in their own world to minister to them there.
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 12:26:44 PM »

Quote
You may also consider fellowshipping with Campus Crusade for Christ with the goal of promoting Orthodoxy.

Jesus was often criticized for going to the lost and meeting with them in their own world to minister to them there.
I don't think that's comparable to attending CRU meetings.

On the flipside, how would you feel about a Jehovah's Witness who joined OCF with the intention of promoting the Watchtower Society? And "fellowship," of course.
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2013, 01:16:19 PM »

Hmm, "crazy", "nutcases" could these points have been made just as well without denigrating anyone?   I know the local CCFC leader in our area, one of the perks of being an ex-Protestant minister I suppose.  Very nice young man with a zeal for Christ I would imagine our missionary Saints such as my own patront Saint Innocent of Alaska must have had.  Genuinely cares for people.  I was invited to be on their board,  college for me being a long way in the past, and h knows where my beliefs are too. I'm not going to because thier beliefs are too far separated from ours and I wouldn't feel right promoting that without saying something, which I don't think they would like.  Which is kinda the position you may be in Orthodox4Christ. Of course maybe I should put that out there and let them decide.  After all Father Peter and company came from there and God used that to bring them to truth.
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 02:06:24 PM »

Bob,

Have you considered that your familiarity and previous involvement with these groups means that what we see as problems, you do not see as problems?

I mean, you speak their language, for one.
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 02:42:22 PM »

Possibly so, but insofar as I cited the distance between their beliefs and ours as being a reason to not hook up with them if you could elaborate it would be helpful.
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 02:49:35 PM »

Where do you go to school?
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 02:55:25 PM »

Possibly so, but insofar as I cited the distance between their beliefs and ours as being a reason to not hook up with them if you could elaborate it would be helpful.
Well, perhaps you are sympathetic to the way they describe and talk about conversion. It could be that you would not shift uncomfortably when they asked you their liturgical questions and prayed their liturgical prayers "have you accepted..." "Lord I just wanna". It may be that their jargon ('yoked' in every possible context, biblical, witness on, covenant with, submission, Lord is doing big things X, etc.) is not disturbing to you.

It is also the case that every organization which claims to be "a-political", given the right conditions, will betray this claim with the following justification: "This isn't a political issue, this is an X issue." (abortion= human rights issue, homeless = Christian issue, election = American issue, etc.) So it may be the case, and here I am speculating, that you agree with the reasons this particular organization chooses to deviate from its apolitical claim from time to time; just what those reasons are can be discussed at another time.

I say this because people like me who were never a part of such organizations, often find their behavior and ethos to be very disturbing.
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2013, 03:50:52 PM »

Bob:

I wasn't saying they were all crazy or anti-Catholic. I was only giving what my impression was. Some of them were very nice and cool people. But it doesn't mean I agree with them.

I have fundamentalist and Muslims who I talk to and who I am fine with.
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2013, 08:37:18 PM »

Nicholas, thank you for clarifying.

As for politics I know Orthodox Christians both cradle and converts who I would consider to be politically liberal and who I would consider to be politically conservative. So as it happens I can be just as comfortable or scandalized depending on my own political leanings by the conversations around me at coffee hour as I can by the non-gospel oriented stances taken by CCFC or any Protestant organization for that matter.

Regarding the language, I would guess I am more comfortable than you may be with certain phrases used by CCFC type people because I know what they mean. I would also guess that I'm more uncomfortable than you may be with certain phrases used by CCFC type people because I "know" what they mean.

Having said that I'm still not certain what the main point of your initial response was. Let me ask therefore rather than assume, are you objecting to my objection on calling people "nutcases" and "crazy"? You may not be, as I said I'm not certain I understood your main point.
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2013, 08:46:23 PM »

Orthodox4Christ, thank you, I assumed that you didn't mean all. But all or a few or one, can we disagree with the content of the seminars (which I believe I would for some , if not many) without labeling them "crazy"?

Ie. "I'd rather just pray in the Campus garden by myself than go to their crazy seminars seminars I would only disagree with".
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2013, 02:24:16 AM »

  How exactly do you feel Campus Crusades beliefs are different from Orthodoxy to the point that it is problematic?

  When I attended the Episcopal Church (I was raised mainline Methodist, non-evangelical, "liberal"), the local cathedral supported Campus Crusade (we are in the same town after all, Orlando), and that made me a bit concerned because I was very suspicious of "The Four Spiritual Laws" as a representation of Christian faith, it seemed to contradict some of the things we did in the church, such as Baptism and the Eucharist, and the importance of those things (not "accepting Jesus", especially in "classical" Anglican theology, this idea is problematic.  Salvation isn't a "decision for Christ").   In addition, I was into reading non-evangelicals like Brian McLaren or NT Wright whose theologies were not exactly "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior".

  Needless to say, I rubbed shoulders with alot of "evangelicals" at that church- I started getting used to some of it, even.  It seems ubiquitous in the South to have that sort of thing happening, even in a denomination known for its liberalism.
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2013, 03:31:42 PM »

. Let me ask therefore rather than assume, are you objecting to my objection on calling people "nutcases" and "crazy"? You may not be, as I said I'm not certain I understood your main point.

I was trying to get at a perhaps more precise and charitable understanding of "nutcases" to bridge the gap here.
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2013, 05:09:49 PM »

. Let me ask therefore rather than assume, are you objecting to my objection on calling people "nutcases" and "crazy"? You may not be, as I said I'm not certain I understood your main point.

I was trying to get at a perhaps more precise and charitable understanding of "nutcases" to bridge the gap here.
Okay, are you asking me to translate for you so that you can come up with a better descriptive word for them? Is that the idea or am I still way off, forgive my denseness if so.   Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2013, 05:31:56 PM »

 How exactly do you feel Campus Crusades beliefs are different from Orthodoxy to the point that it is problematic?

  When I attended the Episcopal Church (I was raised mainline Methodist, non-evangelical, "liberal"), the local cathedral supported Campus Crusade (we are in the same town after all, Orlando), and that made me a bit concerned because I was very suspicious of "The Four Spiritual Laws" as a representation of Christian faith, it seemed to contradict some of the things we did in the church, such as Baptism and the Eucharist, and the importance of those things (not "accepting Jesus", especially in "classical" Anglican theology, this idea is problematic.  Salvation isn't a "decision for Christ").   In addition, I was into reading non-evangelicals like Brian McLaren or NT Wright whose theologies were not exactly "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior".

  Needless to say, I rubbed shoulders with alot of "evangelicals" at that church- I started getting used to some of it, even.  It seems ubiquitous in the South to have that sort of thing happening, even in a denomination known for its liberalism.
If your asking me, or even if your not since I did indicate that I disagreed with them, I can say from my perspective some of the same things you said. But to elaborate sola scriptura, total depravity, an opposition to any synergistic cooperation in salvation,  Eternal Security. There's probably a couple more but hopefully that will do. But it's not just them, I just see them as a microcosm of Protestant Christianity.
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2013, 05:32:47 PM »

Where do you go to school?
Who are you asking?
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2013, 05:53:07 PM »

Where do you go to school?
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2013, 08:48:28 PM »

Define fellowship.  Hanging out with them isn't bad.  If you start believing as they do, well, that's different.

+1.  Have a beer (or five) with them.  Anything more than socializing and discussing and maybe doing charitable works together, don't get sucked in.
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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2013, 10:20:58 PM »

I apologize for the lengthy tome.  I usually post a paragraph at most, but boy did this OP strike a nerve.  

I would agree with the suggestion to start your own Orthodox fellowship group on your campus.  

I would also agree with canon law here, as well, if I'm understanding it correctly.  

I'll tell you what--if this isn't canon law, it needs to be.

I don't think that that law is designed to 'quarantine' Orthodox from other Christians, but rather exists because of the caustic nature of heretical, schismatic doctrines, and the aggressive way that the followers of heterodoxical sects spread their doctrines.  I've been 'the victim' of these efforts, and they try every trick in the book, always claiming that their efforts were out of love.  That kinda love, I don't need.  I've been told I'm going to hell, that I'm am in 'Satan's grip,' and that I hate God.  

As with all conversion efforts, the idea is to get you into their church.  Problem is, the Orthodox Church is the only Church, so actually, the whole point is to pull you out of church.  

No matter which the denomination, the tactics are the same:
1)Instill confusion.  
2)Appeal to self-interests--the "what's in it for me" angle.
3)Threaten eternal damnation.

The way Satan is going to try to get at us is the exact same way he got at Eve.  This whole scenario has already played out once, in Genesis 3, and it continues to play out, over and over and over again, through the ages, as though we're never going to come to our senses.

Gen 3:1
Instill confusion.  Make you question what you think you know about what God has told us and what He expects of us.  Are you sure He told you not to eat from the tree?  The snake can't sway Eve until he can get Eve to question what she already knows.  Instill confusion.  Protestantism reared its ugly head, and then almost immediately hemorrhaged into 32,000 doctrinally distinct offshoots, each claiming to be the sole possessor of truth and the only pathway to God.  How's that for confusion?  The false church would logically and necessarily not be the first Church.  It was a church yet to come, and here you have tens of thousands, scattering Christendom to every crack and crevice.  Think of the way in which tempered glass shatters--not in large pieces, but like sands to the wind.  This is why I take this seriously.  Who/what could possibly be working through these ministries?  

Gen 3:2-3
Eve wasn't subjected to others' interpretation of scripture.  There was no Bible, and she got these instructions from God Himself. She knows which trees she can eat from and the one she can't.  She proves that here, by reciting these instructions back to the serpent, indicating she heard them clearly and in their entirety, and that she understood them.

Gen 3:4
Here the serpent tells her she can do what she wants, surely she "will not die!"  Dying, here, means losing the soul to eternal damnation, not keeling over from stroke or heart attack.  This snake is telling her she can do whatever she wants and will not go to hell.  Sound familiar?  If you've ever been within 183 feet of any Protestant trying to convert you, you've heard this before.  The argument always being that we all fall short, and if you try, it means you think you can earn it, and so therefore, don't try.  Do what you want.  Christ already died for us and we can do what we want because all are saved...as long as you belong to a specific church.  I'll say, now, what I tell every Protestant who comes at me with this, because explaining to them that we must cooperate with grace just does not sink in--it wouldn't.  

Satan does NOT want us cooperating with Grace, and that is why this is one of the first--if not the very first--way that these people come at you.  What I always say to these people, whether I encounter them out in the world or they knock on my door, is this:  the only person in the Bible who ever spoke that lie was the snake.  Everyone who speaks it now is a snake.  Harsh, yes, but how polite are we to be with someone aggressively trying to cause us harm?  I'll start out polite, but invariably, efforts to convince me are stepped up, and if they're going to start telling me I'm going to hell and that I hate God, then I draw the line and politeness is no longer a moral compulsion for me.  

See Matthew 16:23.  Was He not loud here?  Yes, I think that's what the '!' is for.  Was he not firm?  Did He say in a quivering voice "Pardon my uppity-ness, but you're a stumbling block to me, and would you mind very much, um, uh, er" ?  No, what He said was "Get behind me, Satan!"  

And not just that first clause--the whole verse pertains.  "You are a stumbling block to me."  Pertains, no?  Yes, actually.  It pertains.
"...for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”  Again, this pertains, no?  Telling you that you can do what you want and will still go to heaven--that's setting one's mind on human things, specifically self-interest and the ego, right?  

And that is a chronic, consistent strategy of these people.  Do not try.  Do not cooperate with grace or even think that you're supposed to cooperate with grace.  Don't even speak those words out loud--this is blasphemy to them.  No, do whatever you want, and you're going to heaven.  This is why I firmly believe that the snake is what works through these people.  They're not evil or consciously trying to harm us, but in the end, my response has to be the same--Matt 16:23 and not holding back.  

I don't presume ill will in these people--they're just lost, and I know they were seeking God just as we did and are, but they refuse to consider that the snake is both who and what is working through them, and in the end, all they can do is damage.  They're trying to keep us from doing what we know God wants us to do, and they're actively and even aggressively trying to pull us out of church, so who else could possibly be working through such a person?  I don't care if it's a friend, relative, school buddy, coworker, or the insurance man.  Or, as we have it here, these on-campus, so-called 'non-denominational' ministries whose call to 'fellowship' is nothing more than the spider trying to get the fly to come to him.  Why?  Because that's how it hunts.    

I think Mother Theresa put it best: "We can fail, but we do have to try."   And trying to suggest that that means we think we can 'earn it' is a reach, and a twisted argument.  It is manipulation in order to pull His people off the path.  We do have to try.  

There's something else going on here.  This event took place I don't even know how long before the Bible was written, and yet, what is the serpent doing here?  To both God and this serpent, scripture is already written.  They both know what's to come and they both know the will of God.  They're not sitting around waiting on the printing press.  And what is scripture at its core?  Not just God's Word and laws, but His will for us, not words on a page.  Eve had received instruction here, and that instruction constituted what?  God's will for her and Adam.  What is this snake doing, trying to instill confusion and make Eve question what she knows?  

That serpent is interpreting scripture.  And he's doing it in a way that is inaccurate.  That muddies the water.  He's doing it in a way that twists the meaning back toward the interests of the hearer--in this case, Eve--in order to get her to defy the will of God.  Sound familiar?  She received those instructions directly, and yet takes the word of the snake.  

One thing I'm sure I have in common with everyone in here is that I haven't met a single member of any other church who wasn't able to logically reinterpret scripture, and I think that's an intentional characteristic of the Bible.  Contradictions abound (though many are not real contradictions) and this is why you get proof-texting from these people.  Two verses lie in apparent opposition, and they will accept one and dispense with the other, either claiming it doesn't pertain to the first one at all, or calling that troublesome verse a mystery or parable or otherwise not to be taken literally.

In this way, the Bible itself--as with every other thing on planet Earth--can be used for both good and evil.  That doesn't mean it's flawed.  

That means that it is perfect.

One more thing:  What is the approach of the serpent?  Is it hissing?  Taking the posture of a cobra about to strike?  Baring its fangs?

No.  It's smiling.  It's appearing to look out for Eve's interests and welfare.  If it had arms, it would have gently placed one around her shoulders and pulled her near.  This is also an unchanging event in our history.  Remember this:  in order to make any inroads into humanity, evil must gently knock on the door and beg admission with a smile on its face.  Most of the time, it creeps in through the back door.  It must convince us it's harmless.  Even friendly.  Remember that.  If it presented itself at our front door, looking, acting, and speaking the very evil that it is to its core, down to its blood and bone, would we let it in?  

No.

And it knows that.  

Lecture over.  My advice: socialize with them, but do not commune in fellowship in any religious setting, which is what a fellowship ministry is.  Go with canon law on this one.    
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 10:30:33 PM by newtoorthodoxy » Logged

Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith.  Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.
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« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2013, 11:12:30 PM »

I think it is OK to go occasionally, for friendship. It can also persuade one or more of them about Orthodoxy. But one should also think about having an OCF group too, even if it is just 2 or 3 people.

I think I visited the various religious groups on my rural campus a handful of times. The Catholic group was the best because they had their own ministry "house" near campus. I went there about once a week. Looking back I wish I had tried to find more Orthodox students, but in all fairness they woul dhave been very few if any. Later on they had a group when I was an alumnus, but the students were not really interested in me at that point, and they had only a few students or so.
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2013, 01:19:33 AM »

I tried to start an OCF chapter in college, but could get zero people to join. So I visited a nearby OCF group, and it was totally pointless and really boring.

There was an (unofficially) Protestant group on campus and, I stuck around after getting used to them. I made a couple of close friendships there, while other members of the group learned about the Orthodox Church and came to respect it, even those who had a Fundamentalist bent. Granted, if you are in the Bible Belt, you may be going more against the grain.

Obviously some people here are really insecure about their Orthodoxy, but at no point did I feel like I was in danger of losing my Orthodox faith because of Protestant influences. Only the Orthodox have been able to make me feel antagonistic towards my native Church.

In accordance with my gut and, as I later learned, the canons, I did not join in worship with non-Orthodox.

Just in case the OP would like a real-life story instead of advice fresh out of people's imaginations.
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2013, 07:02:58 AM »

At the college I went to, there was a Baptist group, Catholic group, and a Methodist group, as well as a few random independent Bible study groups.  I visited them, but didn't feel connected to any of them.  The closest Orthodox church at the time was still a 45 minute drive and I never went.  I should have.  At one time, I and several others tried starting a chapter of a non-denominational group, to give another option to students.  It didn't last long, because we weren't offering anything different from the other groups.  All for the best, looking back.
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