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Author Topic: What's So Bad About the Enlightenment?  (Read 2407 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2013, 07:24:23 PM »


God forbis to kill innocent. Reason alone without God doesn't. So my analogy stands, yours falls.

But that is not the point of this discussion. You claimed that it was widely regarded as enlightened and justifiable to massacre people. I disputed that statement and now, you keep changing the subject to questions about the ethical problems of "Reason Alone". That is all nice, but it was not what we were talking about.

Please, be kind and proof to me that a majority of enlightenment thinkers supported the mass slaughtering of the French Revolution, because that was what you claimed.

I never claimed it, post my quote of me saying that, then we continue, because you are boring me. But i will spare your time, i said:

Quote
The rest of its flaws come from it. That was considered enlightenment

It is far from saying:

Quote
a majority of enlightenment thinkers supported the mass slaughtering of the French Revolution, because that was what you claimed.

Then you say:

Quote
I disputed that statement and now, you keep changing the subject to questions about the ethical problems of "Reason Alone".

But here is my first post you replied to:

Quote
The main problem of enlightenment is its postulate that one does not need Christ and the Church to be enlighted.

So no i didnt change the subject, it has always been what i was talking about. Now learn how to read before trying to reply.

When you are saying "That was considered enlightenment", end the sentence with a colon and then proceeds to post pictures showing mass executions and massacres, it is not me who made a mistake. You should reconsider how you build up your posts.

I didnt say the majority of their thinkers approved it so you did make a mystake. You also made one saying i kept changing subject when it was my subject from the beggining. But i'll try to explain myself better next time, you are right and i apologize for the unnecesary hard words.

No offence taken.

A colon is usually used to inform the reader that what follows the colon, is an explanation of the preceeding sentence. Therefore the pictures, you posted, could easily be seen in connection with the last sentence you wrote.

All in all, I can see that our discussion most likely stems from a grammatical misunderstanding. Therefore, I too wish to apologize if I have offended you.
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« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2013, 12:01:46 AM »

The problem with the Enlightenment is that the unenlightened often lose their heads.



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« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2013, 12:10:41 AM »

This thread turned out better than I expected, to be honest Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2013, 05:29:43 AM »

The Enlightenments goal: To have a happy (hedonistic) life on earth - using all possible means. "Heaven" on earth despite the fact of Death. To worship humans mind.
It's a quite hopeless ideology.
And although it allows us (for people in the  northern hemisphere ) to have in the last decades a quite wealthy and cold-hearted harmonic life, it's a time bomb, a matter of time when this hedonistic ideology will destroy our planet.

The Goal of Christianity/Orthodoxy: To live and believe in that way, how you can love at the best your neighbor, to be in full communion with God, to be a full person; and to be worth to go to heaven after Death.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 05:30:17 AM by Nathanael » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2013, 04:51:20 PM »

"God is dead, everything is allowed"

Those are actually two separate quotes by different authors that are oftentimes erroneously combined.

Nietzsche famously wrote "God is dead," the latter statement is from Dostoevsky.
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »

"God is dead, everything is allowed"

Those are actually two separate quotes by different authors that are oftentimes erroneously combined.

Nietzsche famously wrote "God is dead," the latter statement is from Dostoevsky.

Dostoevsky is always right
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2013, 05:31:47 PM »

"God is dead, everything is allowed"

Those are actually two separate quotes by different authors that are oftentimes erroneously combined.

Nietzsche famously wrote "God is dead," the latter statement is from Dostoevsky.

Dostoevsky is always right

It's a travesty that westerners are clamoring for the canonization of Tolkien and Lewis and Chesterton, yet easterners have sat on their hands for well over a century when it comes to the glorification of the big D. This must end.
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2013, 07:12:49 PM »

"God is dead, everything is allowed"

Those are actually two separate quotes by different authors that are oftentimes erroneously combined.

Nietzsche famously wrote "God is dead," the latter statement is from Dostoevsky.

Dostoevsky is always right

It's a travesty that westerners are clamoring for the canonization of Tolkien and Lewis and Chesterton, yet easterners have sat on their hands for well over a century when it comes to the glorification of the big D. This must end.
As is tradition, we mustneeds an icon first.
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2013, 09:01:09 PM »

This is the best I could find.  Someone needs to commission such an icon posthaste!

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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2013, 09:04:23 PM »

Nope, this works.  It's suitable for veneration. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2013, 09:07:51 PM »

The disjointed image is symbolic of the complicated life Dostoevsky led. There is other symbolism as well: for example, notice how he lived primarily in the blue (Tsars), and that is what colored his world view... yet the red (communists) were coming soon enough.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 09:09:19 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2013, 09:08:04 PM »

"God is dead, everything is allowed"

Those are actually two separate quotes by different authors that are oftentimes erroneously combined.

Nietzsche famously wrote "God is dead," the latter statement is from Dostoevsky.

Dostoevsky is always right
And Nietzshe is still dead.

He did get one thing right: "What does not kill you makes you stronger."
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2013, 09:10:48 PM »

The disjointed image is symbolic of the complicated life Dostoevsky led. There is other symbolism as well: for example, notice how he lived primarily in the blue (Tsars), and that is what colored his world view... yet the red (communists) were coming soon enough.
We just need LBK to come and point out the errors.  Then it would be a true icon.  laugh
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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2013, 09:20:00 PM »

He needs a blessing hand!
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« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2013, 11:42:49 PM »

I first thought that was Lenin. He has incorrupt relic anyways.

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« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2013, 11:43:41 PM »

I first thought that was Lenin. He has incorrupt relic anyways.
You remember what Pat. St. Tikhon said on that score.
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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2013, 12:02:55 AM »

This is an enlightening thread. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2013, 02:55:27 PM »

It's a travesty that westerners are clamoring for the canonization of Tolkien and Lewis and Chesterton, yet easterners have sat on their hands for well over a century when it comes to the glorification of the big D. This must end.
As is tradition, we mustneeds an icon first.

Oh, like this?  Grin

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« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2013, 02:58:04 PM »

Ah, the sainted pipe!
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« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2013, 05:00:23 PM »

This thread turned out better than I expected, to be honest Smiley

No kidding.  Big thanks to Iconodule for his contributions.
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« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2013, 05:08:24 PM »

I first thought that was Lenin. He has incorrupt relic anyways.



Lenin's remains have been an extreme example of the embalmer's work and cannot be regarded as naturally incorrupt.
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« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2013, 05:13:11 PM »

I first thought that was Lenin. He has incorrupt relic anyways.



Lenin's remains have been an extreme example of the embalmer's work and cannot be regarded as naturally incorrupt.

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« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2013, 05:23:05 PM »

I'm somewhat suprised this was written by Iconodule since I've been thinking him as a liberal leftist*

The left and the right are equally indebted to the Enlightenment; however, my sympathies tend to place me in the left camp but often with different reasons and purposes than the typical leftists. That said, some interesting, if not altogether correct, critiques of the enlightenment, modernity, etc. come from the left (e.g. Adorno).

I think pining for a return to monarchy, confessional states, or anything of that sort is a dead end. That system also had plenty of failures and good riddance to it.

Some things which were encouraged by the Enlightenment are undoubtedly good, though not for the projected reasons. Among these, I include especially free speech and religious toleration. Of course the Enlightenment thinkers tended to believe these would bring about a general spirit of honest inquiry in society that would bring everyone nearer the Truth- that hasn't really happened. But it has kept a lot of people from being killed or imprisoned needlessly.

+1. 
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« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2013, 06:02:24 PM »

I'm somewhat suprised this was written by Iconodule since I've been thinking him as a liberal leftist*

The left and the right are equally indebted to the Enlightenment; however, my sympathies tend to place me in the left camp but often with different reasons and purposes than the typical leftists. That said, some interesting, if not altogether correct, critiques of the enlightenment, modernity, etc. come from the left (e.g. Adorno).

I think pining for a return to monarchy, confessional states, or anything of that sort is a dead end. That system also had plenty of failures and good riddance to it.

Some things which were encouraged by the Enlightenment are undoubtedly good, though not for the projected reasons. Among these, I include especially free speech and religious toleration. Of course the Enlightenment thinkers tended to believe these would bring about a general spirit of honest inquiry in society that would bring everyone nearer the Truth- that hasn't really happened. But it has kept a lot of people from being killed or imprisoned needlessly.

+1. 

Have noticed among not a few what might be termed very traditionalist Orthodox, regardless of what Calendar adherence, are inclined to a left of centre stance. Remember one Monastic elder referring to Margaret Thatcher with unmitigated disapproval.
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« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2013, 03:52:29 PM »

I will summarize my objections which are generally applicable to the various ideologies and philosophies that emerged from the "Enlightenment."

1. An exaltation of individual reasoning, and the accompanying progressive improvement and emendation of ideas, rejecting tradition and revelation as having any binding authority. Diacritical reasoning is considered man's highest faculty and any spiritual faculties are ignored, dismissed, or given lip-service. The reification of the individual as arbiter of truth.

2. A reductive, narrow approach to the natural world, in varying shades of dualism, empiricism, or materialism. A blanket exaltation of "science" and a degradation of "superstition" including any sense of wonder or mythos. A sometimes mechanistic conception of nature and ultimately of man.

3. The conviction that man, by his own will and reason, can make himself, society, and the world perfect, with the various utopian ideologies that result; the belief that, where individuals are free to exercise public reason, the truth will inevitably emerge.

Really, to identify the basic problems with the Enlightenment, one need look no further than Kant's essay "What is Enlightenment?" His answer: "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed tutelage"- such self-imposed tutelage includes any doctrine or tradition which contradicts an individual's personal reasoning and experience. Dogmas are considered fetters to be thrown off in favor of a supposedly free inquiry into the truth.

I think history has well enough demonstrated the limitations and dangers of these ideas- nay, dogmas- which emanate from the enlightenment, but the same old cliches continue to be disseminated through the schools, the media, and the average "freethinking" conformist.
I thought about this post when I heard this song on the radio today. (Thank you, Roger Hodgson. Smiley)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k3JVfxluFU

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, a miracle, it was beautiful, magical
And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily, joyfully, playfully, watching me
But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible, logical, responsible, practical
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable, clinical, intellectual, cynical

There are times when all the world's asleep
The questions run too deep for such a simple man
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned
I know it sounds absurd but please tell me who I am
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