Priest shortage taking it's toll

[JoeS]

Keeler taps first layperson to lead a parish in diocese
Appointment reflects worsening priest shortage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Rivera
Sun Staff
Originally published January 16, 2003



In a sign of the worsening shortage of Catholic priests in the United States, Cardinal William H. Keeler has chosen a former health-care executive as the first layperson to lead a Baltimore-area parish.

The appointment of Anne Buening to lead St. Clement I in Lansdowne marks the first time a married lay woman will lead a parish in the Baltimore Archdiocese.

"I'm humbled by the honor and responsibility to be the servant leader of this community," said Buening, 50, who has worked full time on the ministerial staff of St. Louis Catholic Church in Clarksville since 1998.

Until now, nuns typically have been tapped to serve as "pastoral life directors" to lead the few parishes that have no full-time priests, overseeing budgets and religious education programs and counseling parishioners.

But with six parishes in the Baltimore Archdiocese now without priests as pastors, a number expected to rise substantially in coming decades, church officials say they will increasingly appoint deacons, nuns and laypeople to administer parishes. Buening is a pioneer in the church's strategy to deal with the priest shortage, which includes efforts to recruit more men to the priesthood. Those efforts were laid out in The Hope That Lies Before Us, a report released last year that was overshadowed by the clergy sexual abuse scandal.

The crisis in Baltimore reflects the priest shortage nationally. Between 1965 and 2000, the number of priests in the United States declined 20 percent, even as the number of Catholics rose 27 percent to 62 million, according to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate.

In the Baltimore Archdiocese, the number of Catholics has increased 1 percent since 1965 to 486,000 in 2000, while priest ranks have declined by 29 percent to 196. Based on those figures, an archdiocese study projected that by 2005, 24 parishes will be staffed by pastoral life directors. A decade later, nearly a third of all parishes could be led by someone who is not a priest.

Nationally, between 500 and 600 parishes are led by a deacon, nun, brother or layperson, said Monsignor Philip J. Murnion, director of the National Pastoral Life Center.

There has been resistance to having laypeople as parish leaders. Last year, a group of conservative Catholics in Lexington, Ky., filed a complaint with the Vatican after the archdiocese announced plans to shift some responsibilities from priests to laypeople. But Murnion said there can be advantages to having a layperson, particularly a woman, as parish leader. "Our data show they're more likely to do things like home visitations, or to show support for people in difficulties."

Baltimore church officials stressed that parishes with pastoral life directors will not be priestless. Each has a priest assigned to it who will be regularly available to provide the sacraments, including Mass, baptisms and funerals.

"One of the concerns people have is, what happens when someone dies?" said Patrick M. Carrion, director of the Division of Clergy Personnel. "There's a sense that they're not going to see a priest again."

By appointing a priest to consistently provide sacraments for a parish with a pastoral life director, "we create a relationship between the people and the priest so that when they do want to be married or baptized or buried, they don't feel the priest is a stranger," he said.

In this case, parish staffing has been exacerbated by the clergy sexual abuse scandal. Two of the personnel moves announced this week were made to fill vacancies created by priests who were removed from their posts because of accusations of sexual indiscretions. At St. Clement I, where Buening will take over, the pastor was removed in March after allegations surfaced in March that he used crack cocaine and solicited a male prostitute.

Buening, who is married with two children - one of whom will be ordained a priest for Baltimore in May - had been a clinical social worker in a hospice. She then entered the health-care management field and climbed the corporate ladder before having a religious awakening about four years ago.

"What I saw was money had become the most significant thing in health care, more significant than I was comfortable with," she said. "It was one of those conversions."

She began attending classes at the Washington Theological Union and was hired in 1998 by Monsignor Joseph L. Luca to oversee social justice, bereavement and adult education programs at St. Louis parish in Clarksville.

Buening says she knows she faces a challenge in her new assignment, as the parish still grieves over losing its pastor. "It's a challenge of reconciliation and healing and love," she said.

She faces other problems as well. The parish budget is in the red, and the facility is in poor shape. "But leaking roofs and unbalanced budgets are no match for love and goodness," she said.

At Sunday's Mass, she introduced herself for the first time.

"One of the things I said to them upfront is 'I am a lay married woman. I'm not a priest, I'm not a deacon,'" she said. "On Sunday, I think the most important place I can be is in the back of the church, hugging people, loving people, asking 'How is your mother, your father, your son, your daughter?'"

At the end of the Mass, she walked to the back of the church with the priest.

"I was greeted with hugs and tears," she said. "And people said, 'All we wanted was someone to say they loved us.

[jude]

The year is 2025 and....


"Today's guest celebrant of Holy Mass is the Reverend Mother Sheila Kelly, recently appointed chancellor of our diocese by the Most Reverend Joan O'Leary, who was recently consecrated Bishop by Her Holiness, Pope Bernice the First....etc., etc.,.."

Jude

[Schultz]

Friends,

My sister-in-law's family attended St. Clement's during their formative years and my neice and nephew were both educated at the parish school.  They've really hit hard times there, with the pastor being accused of drug abuse and solicitation of male prostitution, as the article stated.  The people there could really use all of your prayers.

As for the female administrator, it is really for nothing more than the daily running of the parish.  She is not on the altar celebrating Mass, she is not assisting the priest, she is not hearing confessions.  She's merely the administrator of the parish.  Why not a lay "man", you might ask?  Well, at that parish, it seems that the men really don't give a damn, to be a little blunt.  Just like the old adage that the babas are really the torchbearers of Orthodoxy, the women at St. Clement's are trying to keep their parish afloat.  Regardless of doctrinal differences, the people at St. Clement's could use all the prayerful help they can get, and that includes us here.

[JoeS]

So, in effect she will fill in on non-priestly duties for the parish.  I guess this is how some parishes are surviving.  

JoeS

Friends,

My sister-in-law's family attended St. Clement's during their formative years and my neice and nephew were both educated at the parish school.  They've really hit hard times there, with the pastor being accused of drug abuse and solicitation of male prostitution, as the article stated.  The people there could really use all of your prayers.

As for the female administrator, it is really for nothing more than the daily running of the parish.  She is not on the altar celebrating Mass, she is not assisting the priest, she is not hearing confessions.  She's merely the administrator of the parish.  Why not a lay "man", you might ask?  Well, at that parish, it seems that the men really don't give a damn, to be a little blunt.  Just like the old adage that the babas are really the torchbearers of Orthodoxy, the women at St. Clement's are trying to keep their parish afloat.  Regardless of doctrinal differences, the people at St. Clement's could use all the prayerful help they can get, and that includes us here.

[Amadeus]

Dear jude, the obscure:

Perhaps, the following statistical figures help explain the priest shortage in the U.S. Catholic Church (Latin) today:

                      1965          2001

Catholics      49,000,000      64,000,000
Parishes              17,637             19,143
Priests:
      Diocesan        35,925             30,223
      Religious        22,707             14,968                
Ordinations               994                  509
Seminarians           8,325               3,483

However, I don't think your scenario for 2025 truly reflects the future state of the Catholic Church in the U.S.


AmdG

[Ebor]

The year is 2025 and....


"Today's guest celebrant of Holy Mass is the Reverend Mother Sheila Kelly, recently appointed chancellor of our diocese by the Most Reverend Joan O'Leary, who was recently consecrated Bishop by Her Holiness, Pope Bernice the First....etc., etc.,.."

Jude

That's low.  

 The woman in the article can work at getting the bills paid and parish members helped and the church kept up as well as a man and that's what she's to do. Nothing sacramental.

[NDHoosier]

For what it's worth...

I do believe that Latin Church canon law says that only clerics may be parish administrators.

[jude]

The year is 2025 and....


"Today's guest celebrant of Holy Mass is the Reverend Mother Sheila Kelly, recently appointed chancellor of our diocese by the Most Reverend Joan O'Leary, who was recently consecrated Bishop by Her Holiness, Pope Bernice the First....etc., etc.,.."

Jude

That's low.  

 The woman in the article can work at getting the bills paid and parish members helped and the church kept up as well as a man and that's what she's to do. Nothing sacramental.

It wasn't meant to be low...or high...or medium.

But it seems more than one or two Roman Catholics--on the liberal side and the conservative side, one side positively and the other side negatively--believe this represents the future of the Catholic Church.

I'm not against women priests, so I would have no negative presuppositions about the parish administrator; she certainly will be a better "pastor" and example of a "priestly" person than her predecessor, whom one poster describes as a fellow seriously morally impaired.

PAX,

Jude

[Robert]

Jude,

Please define "Not against woman priests".

Are you saying you'd believe women would make valid priests??

Bobby

[The young fogey]

I am happy nothing like this ever will happen in Eastern Orthodoxy. There already are lay-led groups, even small mission churches, and services such as the hours and the Typika/-+-¦-¦-¦-+-+-Ã¥-¦ they can do, without all this secondhand secular feminist business of woman-led ‘priestless parishes’.

NTS, I stand with apostolic, catholic, orthodox, historic Christendom and thus say no to the notion of trying to ordain women to the presbyterate or episcopate. I don’t pretend to understand all the reasons but I trust the historic Church on this one, not the secular world (despite its arguments in the name of charity and justice in this matter) that we all know is so wrong on so many other things. The sexes are equal but complementary.

[sinjinsmythe]

The sexes are equal but complementary.

What do you mean by this?  I am curious to hear your explanation.

Anyway, I agree with you Serge.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

This brings up the question, Why does Cardinal Keeler need a laywoman "Pastor" if he has 449 ACTIVE Priests and only 162 Parishes? It seems to be part of an agenda, not a matter of need.

[Schultz]

Nik,

Many of those "active priests" are really, really old (I'm talking in their 70s and 80s) and are definitely not up to the task of adminstrating a parish.

I think everyone is blowing this way, way too out of propotion.  Cardinal Keeler is not a supporter of the "woman priest" movement and has been a staunch defender of orthodox practice of Catholocism for quite some time.  All this woman is doing is handling the day to day activities of keeping the parish up and running: paying bills, contacting maintenance if necessary, making sure there's a priest coming for Sunday masses.

She is decidedly NOT hearing confessions, counselling families, celebrating the sacraments, or teaching AmChurch doctrine.  She is an ADMINISTRATOR, nothing more.  The people of St. Clement's have had the rug pulled out from under their feet after Father Steve was caught with his pants down.  For the time being, I think Cardinal Keeler made a wise decision in putting someone who knows the parish in charge of the day to day runnings until he can find someone up to the task of continuing the healing process at the parish.  I pray it won't be long and I ask you all to join me.

[jude]

Jude,

Please define "Not against woman priests".

Are you saying you'd believe women would make valid priests??

Bobby

Ordained women are considered to be valid priests within the jurisdictions of the Old Catholic Churches of Holland, Switzerland, Croatia, Germany, and Greece, etc.

In that context, I would consider female priests "valid." Outside of that context, I wouldn't under current circumstances.

Jude

[The young fogey]

Ordained women are considered to be valid priests within the jurisdictions of the Old Catholic Churches of Holland, Switzerland, Croatia, Germany, and Greece, etc.

In that context, I would consider female priests "valid." Outside of that context, I wouldn't under current circumstances.

And Sun Myung Moon is considered to be the Messiah within the jurisdiction of the Unification Church, but that doesn’t make him so.

Are you Eastern Orthodox? EOxy doesn’t call clergy outside itself ‘valid’. If it’s in the Church, it has grace. If not, it’s a big unknown, or, as our friend Fr Serafim has explained on another board, there may be grace from without, as in all creation, but not grace in itself like the mysteries of the Church.

Besides which, the attempted ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopate is objectively impossible, according to both the Eastern Orthodox and to Roman Catholics, which is why the latter don’t consider these ladies priests even though their church recognizes ‘validity’ of sacraments outside itself.

Anyway, who cares what this goofy little rump sect in Middle Europe does?

[jude]

Serge,

I don't see you having to face the possibility of woman being ordained to the Orthodox priesthood during your lifetime.

But there are strong and powerful women within the Church--especially in Greece and America--who gave years of their lives to the service of the church, were raised within a culture of feminism that has its roots in ancient Greece, are well educated and intelligent, and believe women should not be barred from the priesthood.

Eventually they will have their way and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I just accept the inevitable.

Hegel wasn't exactly an orthodox Christian, but he was right about the inevitability of change.

Jude

[prodromos]

I find it disturbing that there are women who gave years of their lives to the service of the church and learned nothing of humility in all that time.

Regardless, I disagree that women priests are inevitable. The first bishop to ordain a woman would find himself excommunicated immediately. If they were to ordain women they would then not be in the church, by their very acts they would remove themselves from the body of Christ.

I don't think you give the Holy Spirit enough credit

John.

[JoeS]

What with the new edict from Rome which insists on a more severe investigation of novitiates at seminaries, coupled with an ever dwindling enrollment, it will be extremely difficult for the RCC to get back to the numbers of clerics it so desperately needs to serve the ever increasing parishes.  This is truly a crisis unknown in the modern RCC.

What made the priesthood attractive many years ago and not now?

Yes, the enrollments in the Orthodox seminaries has risen over the last few years but for how long?  We may be faced with similar problems. :-

JoeS

[Schultz]

What made the priesthood attractive many years ago and not now?


I think alot of it has to do with social pressure.  There are many young men who hear the call inside them, but there's so much static out there that it's becoming incresingly difficult to discern the call.  For some reason, I don't know what, people actively discourage friends and relatives from entering seminary.  When so many people are on your back, it takes a tremendous amount of faith to shake off that which is keeping you in the world and answer God's call.  Some may say, "Good riddance, we don't need lukewarm priests", but it's not that cut and dry.  We live in a society that, even though it denies it, does not cater to free choice in vocation.  Individuals get lost in the world and as a result, miss their calling or refuse to hear it.  

I'm currently discerning if I have a vocation or not.  Most of my friends and family keep trying to talk me out of it, mostly because I just broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years who I was ready to marry.  And I do see their point; I'm not going to make any decision right now when the wounds are so deep and I can't think straight.  But I know that I've always had a pull towards religious life.  Indeed, one of the reasons we broke up was because she always felt guilty about "keeping me away from God".  She supports my discernment (we are still teriffic friends, although it will be hard for a while).  It's very hard to think straight when you're constantly being assailed by naysayers and "well meaning" people who don't want you to "throw your life away".  The static can be unbearable at times, and in this age where so few have a deep Christian formation, the call can easily be ignored.

[jude]

I find it disturbing that there are women who gave years of their lives to the service of the church and learned nothing of humility in all that time.

Regardless, I disagree that women priests are inevitable. The first bishop to ordain a woman would find himself excommunicated immediately. If they were to ordain women they would then not be in the church, by their very acts they would remove themselves from the body of Christ.

I don't think you give the Holy Spirit enough credit

John.

But there are Greek women--both Catholic and Orthodox--studying at the Old Catholic Faculty in
Berne, who would remind us that some of the
Syriac Fathers referred to the Holy Spirit as the feminine principle of the Godhead.

Taking that into consideration, are we really willing to trust in the Spirit?  

And what of epektasis (reaching forward)?

Looking forward,

Jude

[sinjinsmythe]

Serge,

I don't see you having to face the possibility of woman being ordained to the Orthodox priesthood during your lifetime.

But there are strong and powerful women within the Church--especially in Greece and America--who gave years of their lives to the service of the church, were raised within a culture of feminism that has its roots in ancient Greece, are well educated and intelligent, and believe women should not be barred from the priesthood.

Eventually they will have their way and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I just accept the inevitable.

Hegel wasn't exactly an orthodox Christian, but he was right about the inevitability of change.

Jude

You are forgetting are the women matyrs and female saints who have existed.   The Orthodox church has given many examples of them.  Clearly, women are not disqualified from doing holy and pious things.  These women saints have done things that the average priest can only dream of doing.  What about the Theotokos?  These people also forget about how revered she is in Orthodoxy.  I think what it comes down to is pride and the era that we live in where gender is considered a choice.  

As for the Holy Spirit being feminine, isn't that a new age heresy?  I would like to see what the Holy Fathers have to say about that.

[jude]

Aphrahat, a Syriac Father, speaks of "God his Father and the Holy Spirit his Mother."

From the Western tradition, Lady Julian of Norwich, a medieval saint, speaks of God rejoicing that he is our 'Father' and God rejoicing that he is our "Mother.'  These saints were not devotees of new age theology, but orthodox Christians.

Every Catholic Greek or Orthodox Greek woman I know--who believes in the ordination of women--adheres to  traditional Marian theology. In no way do they hold her in low esteem, but glorify her and embrace her as Theotokos, and with the highest admiration and devotion.

And none of these women are concerned with "choosing their gender." They are perfectly satisfied to be what God intended them to be: superior to men.
 
Jude
 

[The young fogey]

jude,

You sound more like a dissenting liberal member of the Catholic Church or a mainstream Anglican than a member in good faith of an Eastern Christian church.

From the Western tradition, Lady Julian of Norwich, a medieval saint, speaks of God rejoicing that he is our 'Father' and God rejoicing that he is our "Mother.'  These saints were not devotees of new age theology, but orthodox Christians.

See my quotation on ‘Inclusive Language’ on the Faith page of my site, from the orthodox gentleman and retired Anglican bishop Edwin Barnes, with whom I once had the honor of being acquainted.

IIRC Barnes said that in a way God includes both sexes and transcends sex, but in scripture, in salvation history, He consistently revealed Himself as male, especially in the Incarnation, the hypostatic union or God-Man, Jesus, who is the Christ.

Sex (meaning maleness and femaleness) is part of our essence as human beings, not an accident or a construct as the ‘gender’ politicians would have one believe. (Which is one reason to restore the right use of the word ‘sex’ and not say ‘gender’ to mean maleness or femaleness.)

But there are Greek women--both Catholic and Orthodox--studying at the Old Catholic Faculty in
Berne, who would remind us that some of the Syriac Fathers referred to the Holy Spirit as the feminine principle of the Godhead.

All that proves is that orthodoxy isn’t genetic! It and ethnicity are separate things. And again, who on this board cares what that little sect — basically Dutch and German Anglicans at this point — does?

IIRC the Fathers individually were fallible. They could and sometimes did make honest mistakes, holding views later rejected by the Church as a whole. Like the Bible, they can only be read profitably in the context of the teaching Church.

[sinjinsmythe]

Aphrahat, a Syriac Father, speaks of "God his Father and the Holy Spirit his Mother."

From the Western tradition, Lady Julian of Norwich, a medieval saint, speaks of God rejoicing that he is our 'Father' and God rejoicing that he is our "Mother.'  These saints were not devotees of new age theology, but orthodox Christians.

Every Catholic Greek or Orthodox Greek woman I know--who believes in the ordination of women--adheres to  traditional Marian theology. In no way do they hold her in low esteem, but glorify her and embrace her as Theotokos, and with the highest admiration and devotion.

And none of these women are concerned with "choosing their gender." They are perfectly satisfied to be what God intended them to be: superior to men.
 
Jude

I don't know about women being superior to men.  I mean there are a lot of evil women out there to.  I am so sick and tired of people not believing that women are capable of doing the same evil that men can do.  Look at St. Mary of Egypt, before she repented, she lived a totally wicked life.

[The young fogey]

On the notion that women are better than men, for more on the feminization of domestic life and of American religion, check out John Weldon Hardenbrook’s Missing From Action. Probably beneath a self-conscious ‘progressive’ like jude but a fun, easy read with lots of common-sense wisdom and historical knowledge for the rest of us.

[jude]

Of course, there is no sexuality within the Godhead. Masculine or feminine references to God are not to be taken literally; they are purely symbolic. However, it can't be denied that in both Scripture and Tradition, God reveals Himself to us in symbolism that is almost universally masculine.

However, there exists--in the real Orthodox world, as opposed to the internet world--a small and vocal minority of Orthodox Christians, both clergy and lay, even Bishops such as Kallistos Ware and the martyred priest of blessed memory, Alexander Men,  who believe the issue of the ordination of women should be studied and debated in depth, since Orthodoxy is a protean belief system and the consensus of faith is organic. Certainly, these devout Orthodox Christians are anything but liberal Catholics, Old Catholics, or Anglicans. And we shouldn't forget that a late Patriarch of Alexandria was in favor of the ordination of women to the priesthood.

This issue has been an object of ongoing debate within the world of devout Greek Orthodox Christians for many years; longer than the vast majority of the members of this community have been Orthodox.  It will continue to be so for generations to come.

Jude

[jude]

Aphrahat, a Syriac Father, speaks of "God his Father and the Holy Spirit his Mother."

From the Western tradition, Lady Julian of Norwich, a medieval saint, speaks of God rejoicing that he is our 'Father' and God rejoicing that he is our "Mother.'  These saints were not devotees of new age theology, but orthodox Christians.

Every Catholic Greek or Orthodox Greek woman I know--who believes in the ordination of women--adheres to  traditional Marian theology. In no way do they hold her in low esteem, but glorify her and embrace her as Theotokos, and with the highest admiration and devotion.

And none of these women are concerned with "choosing their gender." They are perfectly satisfied to be what God intended them to be: superior to men.
 
Jude

I don't know about women being superior to men.  I mean there are a lot of evil women out there to.  I am so sick and tired of people not believing that women are capable of doing the same evil that men can do.  Look at St. Mary of Egypt, before she repented, she lived a totally wicked life.

You missed my , as in self-deprecating humor, guy.

Jude

[The young fogey]

Of course, there is no sexuality within the Godhead. Masculine or feminine references to God are not to be taken literally; they are purely symbolic.

If that’s so, it’s still not true of Jesus, who is a man.

However, it can't be denied that in both Scripture and Tradition, God reveals Himself to us in symbolism that is almost universally masculine.

Right. One point, as this is an Eastern Orthodox-oriented forum: in EOxy, one doesn’t speak of two sources of revelation, scripture AND tradition, but one, holy tradition, of which scripture is just a part. The two-sources thing IIRC is peculiar to Western Christianity, either in this thing’s positive (Catholic) or negative (Protestant) form.

However, there exists--in the real Orthodox world, as opposed to the internet world--a small and vocal minority of Orthodox Christians, both clergy and lay, even Bishops such as Kallistos Ware and the martyred priest of blessed memory, Alexander Men,  who believe the issue of the ordination of women should be studied and debated in depth, since Orthodoxy is a protean belief system and the consensus of faith is organic.

That’s what university-level theology is about: debating every point in the catechism, as a Roman Catholic priest friend once put it. But such study and debate isn’t an endorsement of attempted ordination of women. The goal is to defend the faith, not change it.

Certainly, these devout Orthodox Christians are anything but liberal Catholics, Old Catholics, or Anglicans.

I hope not.

And we shouldn't forget that a late Patriarch of Alexandria was in favor of the ordination of women to the priesthood.

If that’s true, and yes, I read that in Kallistos too, no, let’s forget. The Church is bigger than any one person, even if that person was a bishop and even a patriarch.

This issue has been an object of ongoing debate within the world of devout Greek Orthodox Christians for many years; longer than the vast majority of the members of this community have been Orthodox.  It will continue to be so for generations to come.

If the Greek Church does cave on this, which I don’t see happening BTW, so what? All it would mean is it left the Orthodox communion. Orthodoxy as such would be the same.

Are you claiming to be Greek Orthodox? I detect a whiff of cradle/ethno-snobbery from you: ‘I’m a born Orthodox and you’re all not so you have to listen to me’.

[Anastasios]

Jude,

Please define "Not against woman priests".

Are you saying you'd believe women would make valid priests??

Bobby

Ordained women are considered to be valid priests within the jurisdictions of the Old Catholic Churches of Holland, Switzerland, Croatia, Germany, and Greece, etc.

In that context, I would consider female priests "valid." Outside of that context, I wouldn't under current circumstances.

Jude

I don't think the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht admits to women priests.  That's why they went into imperfect communion with the Anglican Church when she ordained women priests.

in Christ,

anastasios

[The young fogey]

anastasios,

The Old Catholic Church is in the same situation (breaking up) as the Anglicans: its tiny churches in Germany and Austria ‘ordain’ women as priests (since 1989). Most of its churches are in full communion with the Anglicans except, interestingly, its lone representative in America, the Polish National Catholic Church, who used to be in full communion with the Episcopalians (starting in 1946) but ended that in 1977 when the latter approved women’s ordination.

[sinjinsmythe]

I am afraid that I may sound like a traditionalist but people like Ware and the Patriarch of Alexandria are modernists.   Ware seems to be watering down on everything(just look at his recent edition of the Orthodox church) There was a female deaconate in the early church, however no women priests.  Why must women be priests?  There are many women who are saints, and served as vessels of God's glory...just because they are not priests does not mean that they cannot contribute to the church.  We are so obsessed with equality, equal this or equal that.  Equality has become the god they serve. The sexes, as Serge says, are complimentary to each other, however that is not how it is viewed today.  

Here is another thing.  Orthodoxy is gaining a large amount of  converts from Christian sects that have allowed the ordination of women.  People seem to realize that this is not right at all.  I don't want Orthodoxy to become like the Episcopalians or the Anglicans...that would be a terrible tragedy.

[jude]

Jude,

Please define "Not against woman priests".

Are you saying you'd believe women would make valid priests??

Bobby

Ordained women are considered to be valid priests within the jurisdictions of the Old Catholic Churches of Holland, Switzerland, Croatia, Germany, and Greece, etc.

In that context, I would consider female priests "valid." Outside of that context, I wouldn't under current circumstances.

Jude

I don't think the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht admits to women priests.  That's why they went into imperfect communion with the Anglican Church when she ordained women priests.

in Christ,

anastasios

Old Catholics - New Doctrines

The Roman Catholic Cardinal Archbishop of Utrecht says that the selection of an ex-Roman Catholic priest, Fr. Joris Vercammen, to lead the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht adds an "extra problem" to relations between the two churches, but that the larger difficulty is women's ordination in some Old Catholic bodies. Fr. Vercammen was ordained in the Roman Catholic Church in 1979 and became Old Catholic in 1988.
Old Catholics reject papal infallibility and certain other positions upheld by Rome, though Old Catholic Orders have been (until recently) recognised by Rome.

The 400,000 member Union of Utrecht is officially in communion with the Canterbury led Anglican Communion, with the exception of the Union's largest body, the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) in North America.

The PNCC broke communion with the Anglican churches of Canada and America, as well as the Church of England in 1992, over women's ordination, and now is estranged from several European Old Catholic bodies which have moved to ordain women. The PNCC has broken communion with Old Catholic churches in Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland over the innovation.

The significant percentage of ex-Roman Catholics in leadership of European Old Catholic churches seem, in fact, to have catalysed the movement of these bodies to accept female ordination.

Cardinal Simonis is reported to have said that the opening of the priesthood for women in Old Catholic churches is an "insuperable problem" in the search for church unity. He was quoted as saying that the Old Catholic Church had become a protestant body and "that is very tragic".
***************************
Personally, I have found the European Old Catholics to be very devout and pastorally committed.

Jude
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[Economan]

Of course, there is no sexuality within the Godhead. Masculine or feminine references to God are not to be taken literally; they are purely symbolic. However, it can't be denied that in both Scripture and Tradition, God reveals Himself to us in symbolism that is almost universally masculine.

However, there exists--in the real Orthodox world, as opposed to the internet world--a small and vocal minority of Orthodox Christians, both clergy and lay, even Bishops such as Kallistos Ware and the martyred priest of blessed memory, Alexander Men,  who believe the issue of the ordination of women should be studied and debated in depth, since Orthodoxy is a protean belief system and the consensus of faith is organic. Certainly, these devout Orthodox Christians are anything but liberal Catholics, Old Catholics, or Anglicans. And we shouldn't forget that a late Patriarch of Alexandria was in favor of the ordination of women to the priesthood.

This issue has been an object of ongoing debate within the world of devout Greek Orthodox Christians for many years; longer than the vast majority of the members of this community have been Orthodox.  It will continue to be so for generations to come.

Jude

Jude,

Prior to the mid-20th century, when was the ordination of women a burning issue in either Eastern Christendom or the Catholic Church? IOW, where was this issue for the previous 1950 years or so?

Economan

[Mexican]

well, there are many bishops of the Roman Church, specially in Holand who unblattantly supports the ordaination of women in the future.

About the PNCC, they are quite broad in many aspects, I listened to a record of a PNCC Mass and the service was in modern English, accopnaied by piano, and guitars. In fact it's very similar to a modern Catholic Mass or a modern Episcopal service. Though they're not as scandalous in their liberalisms as the Anglicans, they're quite like a modern RC, it's probable that communion will be established with the RC soon (several parishes have been received recently).

Is it true that they wanted to be Orthodox when the PNCC schism appeared?

[jude]

Of course, there is no sexuality within the Godhead. Masculine or feminine references to God are not to be taken literally; they are purely symbolic. However, it can't be denied that in both Scripture and Tradition, God reveals Himself to us in symbolism that is almost universally masculine.

However, there exists--in the real Orthodox world, as opposed to the internet world--a small and vocal minority of Orthodox Christians, both clergy and lay, even Bishops such as Kallistos Ware and the martyred priest of blessed memory, Alexander Men,  who believe the issue of the ordination of women should be studied and debated in depth, since Orthodoxy is a protean belief system and the consensus of faith is organic. Certainly, these devout Orthodox Christians are anything but liberal Catholics, Old Catholics, or Anglicans. And we shouldn't forget that a late Patriarch of Alexandria was in favor of the ordination of women to the priesthood.

This issue has been an object of ongoing debate within the world of devout Greek Orthodox Christians for many years; longer than the vast majority of the members of this community have been Orthodox.  It will continue to be so for generations to come.

Jude

Jude,

Prior to the mid-20th century, when was the ordination of women a burning issue in either Eastern Christendom or the Catholic Church? IOW, where was this issue for the previous 1950 years or so?

Economan

Many years--for me--would be from about the mid-1950's, when I would have been about seven and it was the hot topic of debate at home and among the female members of our large extended family of proto-feminists of the Greek persuasion. But the issue is older than that, dating to the 1920's, maybe even previous to that.

I can't speak to the issue of the ordination of women within the Roman church.

For some, it is an issue whose time has come. That is the salient point.

[Economan]

Jude,

1. The Church is not a democracy
2. Therefore it is irrelevant what the laity want in this regard. "Proto-feminists" don't make polity and doctrine.
3. Orthodox believe their Church is different than the Catholicism or Protestantism. Our Church is indeed the True Faith and will not falter i.e. ordaining women. Even if 99% of Orthodox bishops agreed to do so, they would be the ones cutting themselves off from the Church.

Economan

[The young fogey]

Is it true that they wanted to be Orthodox when the PNCC schism appeared?

Given the historic Polish antipathy to the Russians and their rite, probably not.

[jude]

Jude,

1. The Church is not a democracy
2. Therefore it is irrelevant what the laity want in this regard. "Proto-feminists" don't make polity and doctrine.


Economan

Woman might not make polity, but they sure do influence  how it is admininstered--at least at the parish level-- and they will have a much greater say about polity in the future.

Greek women are no longer Ottoman beasts- of- burden and the Bishops of the various Greek jurisdictions are certainly aware of that.

If the Bishops of the Ecumenical Church meet in Council and decree that, indeed, women shall be admitted to Holy Orders, then those who dissent shall be in schism from the True Faith.

Never say never.

Jude

[Hypo-Ortho]

Jude the obscure<<Greek women are no longer Ottoman beasts- of- burden and the Bishops of the various Greek jurisdictions are certainly aware of that.

If the Bishops of the Ecumenical Church meet in Council and decree that, indeed, women shall be admitted to Holy Orders, then those who dissent shall be in schism from the True Faith.>>

Jude, Greeks make up only one local Church.  If they decided to ordain women without the concurrence of the other Orthodox Churches, it is they who would be in schism.  Frankly, I cannot see Serbians, Russians, etc., even coming close to the position you seem to infer is espoused by the Greeks on the subject of the ordination of women.  And I haven't met the type of Greek women among the Orthodox in America that seek ordination to the presbyterate eitheir.  One or two radicals does not represent an entire group.

Hypo-Ortho

[jude]

In my earlier posts,I admitted that only a minority of Orthodox would--at this time--be in favor of admitting women to Holy Orders. But we live in an epoch of unprecedented change.

Like I wrote before, it would take the Bishops of the Ecumenical Church, meeting in Council, to modify those canons that qualify who is eligible or not eligible for Holy Orders within the Universal Church.

God is more patient than we are.

Jude

[prodromos]

Jude, I've never come across this minority after 10 years of living in Greece though there are a number of Protestant sects where such a minority might find a home, never in the Orthodox church though (at least not in the ones I go to) ((Ha! I said "never"))

If it did ever come to an ecumenical council, it would merely be to defend orthodoxy against such a practise as Serge noted earlier. That's why they were convened after all, not to make changes, but to defend that which had been passed down in the church against error. It would not even matter if they were a majority, after all, Arianism was in the majority for a while, at least in the East, but that didn't make it orthodox did it? Perhaps you would have accepted Arianism as being inevitable, had you lived a few centuries ago?

John.

[jude]

You probably are right--never just might mean never.

Besides, there are alternatives available for Greeks who are no longer comfortable within the Orthodox fold, and it is probably best for them (and the Orthodox and Catholic Greeks) to leave and find a spiritual home elsewhere.

Like you mention, there are more and more Greeks who self-identify as Protestants, former Greek RC's who self-identify as Old Catholics, even former Orthodox who have "returned" to the 'folk and gods' sects of ancient Hallas, and even some young Greeks who have become--inexplicably--Sufis!

We do seem to be living in an epoch of unprecedented change.

Jude

[prodromos]

... even former Orthodox who have "returned" to the 'folk and gods' sects of ancient Hellas

Were they ever Orthodox to begin with? I can't remember their website address but I do recall that they were loudly and offensively anti-christian.

John.

[Joe T]

To all:

Did the article in the first post deal with the issue of priest shortages or the ordination of women to the presbyterate?  I'm somewhat confused with what I read in the article and what I read in the responses to that article.  Please clarify.  Thank you.

Joe T

[David]

That's funny...I thought this thread was about monks being rebaptized on Mt. Athos?

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