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« on: September 02, 2013, 06:01:27 PM »

Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 06:06:30 PM »

Ok...

Sorry, what exactly are you trying to say? Just commenting a thought or wanting some insight into what you perceive to be "Jewish Christianity?"

I'm asking because I would like to read more or either.
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 06:30:24 PM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 06:36:17 PM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

You just described me (well, I have a non-Jewish father), and I became Orthodox. Huh
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 06:41:24 PM »

Jewish Christianity is based off the notion that Jesus was Jewish and was a Jew of His time

While most Christians are Gentiles (Just regular Christians)

Some can still be Jewish or Jews

This sort of thing is usually connoted as the Abrahamic religion.
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 07:06:11 PM »

If you are saying that Christianity is a Jewish religion, then yes.

If you are saying Christianity follows Jewish precepts, then no.

Judaizing is forbidden.

Jesus was a Jew, and Christianity is a Jewish religion.

In fact, Christianity is the True Judaism.
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 09:04:07 PM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

You just described me (well, I have a non-Jewish father), and I became Orthodox. Huh

I don't mean to "pick" on you, but I've got a question for you and any other Jewish converts to Orthodoxy.  To what extent do you (try to or continue to) keep the Law?  Do you continue any practices of your former Judaism in terms of prayer, daily living, etc.?   
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 09:16:33 PM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

You just described me (well, I have a non-Jewish father), and I became Orthodox. Huh

I don't mean to "pick" on you, but I've got a question for you and any other Jewish converts to Orthodoxy.  To what extent do you (try to or continue to) keep the Law?  Do you continue any practices of your former Judaism in terms of prayer, daily living, etc.?   

Well, having left Orthodox Judaism before coming to Orthodox Christianity, I was all too ready to accept that the Law had been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ. My experience of living under the Law of Moses was pretty miserable; everyone's trying to outdo each other, and there's a constant feeling of graceless inadequacy and utter worthlessness.
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2013, 09:23:37 PM »

If you are saying that Christianity is a Jewish religion, then yes.

If you are saying Christianity follows Jewish precepts, then no.

Judaizing is forbidden.

Jesus was a Jew, and Christianity is a Jewish religion.

In fact, Christianity is the True Judaism.

Ditto
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2013, 09:46:03 PM »

Well, having left Orthodox Judaism before coming to Orthodox Christianity, I was all too ready to accept that the Law had been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ. My experience of living under the Law of Moses was pretty miserable; everyone's trying to outdo each other, and there's a constant feeling of graceless inadequacy and utter worthlessness.

I can't speak for the Jewish experience, so I'll take your word for it.  But what I was curious about was whether, in your catechesis, this was ever brought up.  My reading of the NT leads me to believe that, in allowing the Gentiles not to follow the Mosaic Law, there was never any idea that the Jews were similarly "off the hook" as well.  Even if our typical convert is a Gentile, I wondered if the Church ever encouraged Jewish converts to Orthodoxy to be both Jewish and Christian, as were the first Jewish converts in the NT.  Or does conversion today basically amount to becoming a Gentile, if not in actuality then in practice?   
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2013, 09:54:05 PM »

Well, having left Orthodox Judaism before coming to Orthodox Christianity, I was all too ready to accept that the Law had been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ. My experience of living under the Law of Moses was pretty miserable; everyone's trying to outdo each other, and there's a constant feeling of graceless inadequacy and utter worthlessness.

I can't speak for the Jewish experience, so I'll take your word for it.  But what I was curious about was whether, in your catechesis, this was ever brought up.  My reading of the NT leads me to believe that, in allowing the Gentiles not to follow the Mosaic Law, there was never any idea that the Jews were similarly "off the hook" as well.  Even if our typical convert is a Gentile, I wondered if the Church ever encouraged Jewish converts to Orthodoxy to be both Jewish and Christian, as were the first Jewish converts in the NT.  Or does conversion today basically amount to becoming a Gentile, if not in actuality then in practice?   

By the time I had approached my priest, I had disowned by Jewish identity. I asked him if I could still attend holidays/synagogue services for family reasons, and he didn't have a problem with that. Then again, my family are all Reform Jews (and only some of them go to services at all), so those get togethers are pretty secular and probably don't present dogmatic conflicts. It was actually a bigger concern when I was an Orthodox Jew.

I was told by the Roman Catholic deacon that I consulted with that the Catholic faith is Jewish in origin. After my chrismation and baptism, my Orthodox deacon told me that I was now a "fulfilled" Jew.

My thoughts on the matter are best summed up by St. Paul:

Quote from: Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 10:44:12 PM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

No. Jewish converts to Orthodoxy do not follow the practices of modern, Rabbinic Judaism.
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 11:29:44 PM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

You just described me (well, I have a non-Jewish father), and I became Orthodox. Huh

I don't mean to "pick" on you, but I've got a question for you and any other Jewish converts to Orthodoxy.  To what extent do you (try to or continue to) keep the Law?  Do you continue any practices of your former Judaism in terms of prayer, daily living, etc.?   

Well, having left Orthodox Judaism before coming to Orthodox Christianity, I was all too ready to accept that the Law had been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ. My experience of living under the Law of Moses was pretty miserable; everyone's trying to outdo each other, and there's a constant feeling of graceless inadequacy and utter worthlessness.

It really isn't the Law of Moses, but the interpretation of Rabbis of the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses talks about Priesthood, Incense, Offerings, Tithes and many other things that Jews don't practice and that have been done away by Christ.

That's one of the reasons, in my mind, why Judaism was not a "legitimate successor" to the Second Temple practices of Judaism at the time of Christ. Many ritualistic aspects of "Second Temple Judaism" are inherent in Christianity, but totally absent from the Rabbinical tradition. I think of the Melchizedek Priesthood that St. Paul talks about having fulfilled the Levitical Priesthood.
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 11:50:10 PM »

My reading of the NT leads me to believe that, in allowing the Gentiles not to follow the Mosaic Law, there was never any idea that the Jews were similarly "off the hook" as well.  Even if our typical convert is a Gentile, I wondered if the Church ever encouraged Jewish converts to Orthodoxy to be both Jewish and Christian, as were the first Jewish converts in the NT.  Or does conversion today basically amount to becoming a Gentile, if not in actuality then in practice?   
Mor,

You are pointing to a very interesting issue that has changed over time. The Messianic movement portrays the earliest Christians as closely following Mosaic rules. However, considering Jesus' overruling of ritual cleanliness rules and Peter's vision of many foods becoming edible, I am doubtful about that. My best guess is that the early Christians of Jewish descent were really finding their way when it came to these questions. Even in the 4th century you can find different attitudes among Christians of Jewish background on this question.

Later in the Middle Ages the Church made some rules that would make it very hard for any Christian to follow important Mosaic rules. In the modern era the Church is much more liberal about this, as there are at least a few converts to Orthodoxy who still keep dietary rules with the approval of their superiors.

My own opinion is that despite the canons from the Middle Ages, the modern amount of permissiveness is fine, and it should be optional how much they want to follow the rules, since we follow the spirit, rather than the letter of law as St. Paul explained. St. Paul himself circumcized Timothy and performed Temple sacrifices. Personally, I think it is nice if Jewish Orthodox want to keep some of the rules. But if it became a serious focus, then it would tend to push people away from eachother, when they are supposed to be in unity.
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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 12:28:35 PM »

The Leviticus priesthood is where they have a High Priest performing the Temple services (By a Kohane Gadol ie Jewish Priest) ...

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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2013, 12:17:39 AM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

You just described me (well, I have a non-Jewish father), and I became Orthodox. Huh

I don't mean to "pick" on you, but I've got a question for you and any other Jewish converts to Orthodoxy.  To what extent do you (try to or continue to) keep the Law?  Do you continue any practices of your former Judaism in terms of prayer, daily living, etc.?   

Well, having left Orthodox Judaism before coming to Orthodox Christianity, I was all too ready to accept that the Law had been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ. My experience of living under the Law of Moses was pretty miserable; everyone's trying to outdo each other, and there's a constant feeling of graceless inadequacy and utter worthlessness.

It really isn't the Law of Moses, but the interpretation of Rabbis of the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses talks about Priesthood, Incense, Offerings, Tithes and many other things that Jews don't practice and that have been done away by Christ.

That's one of the reasons, in my mind, why Judaism was not a "legitimate successor" to the Second Temple practices of Judaism at the time of Christ. Many ritualistic aspects of "Second Temple Judaism" are inherent in Christianity, but totally absent from the Rabbinical tradition. I think of the Melchizedek Priesthood that St. Paul talks about having fulfilled the Levitical Priesthood.

That's correct, although I would still use the term "Law of Moses," since Jews believe that Moses appointed the rabbis (the "elders") to interpret the Law as needed. It might be based on interpretation, but Rabbinical Judaism is still the child of Ancient Israel, just like the Church. The question is, of course, who is the genuine Kingdom of God? Those who follow Christ and a Higher Law, or those who continue to follow the Law and reject Christ? I would hope my response to this question is obvious. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2013, 12:50:30 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 07:49:08 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 08:25:43 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.

They would probably institute stoning for adulterers too, hey, it's in the law. So is slavery, we might as well reinstitute that because that worked so well.

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"3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” ... 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 08:28:53 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!

Because that would entail messing with the Dome of the Rock and then the poopstorm would really begin.
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 08:35:08 AM »

If you have a Jewish mother and Father and want to be a Christian then they adopt Christian practices acceptable to Modern Judaism.

I think you are conflating religion (Judaism) and ethnicity (Jewry) to Huh result.
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 08:37:21 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!

Hey, they are working on it!  Roll Eyes

http://www.templeinstitute.org/
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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 08:50:35 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!

Hey, they are working on it!  Roll Eyes

http://www.templeinstitute.org/
Lol slush fund.
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 08:56:21 AM »

I'm not gonna lie, their model of the proposed Third Temple is way cooler than the mosque that is currently there.  On that basis, I am totally in favor of risking WWIII to have the Dome blown up.  Cool architecture trumps everything.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 08:59:48 AM »

I'm not gonna lie, their model of the proposed Third Temple is way cooler than the mosque that is currently there.  On that basis, I am totally in favor of risking WWIII to have the Dome blown up.  Cool architecture trumps everything.  Grin

They tried really hard to copy Hagia Sophia.
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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2013, 09:02:44 AM »

I'm not gonna lie, their model of the proposed Third Temple is way cooler than the mosque that is currently there.  On that basis, I am totally in favor of risking WWIII to have the Dome blown up.  Cool architecture trumps everything.  Grin

They tried really hard to copy Hagia Sophia.
Huh?  Huh

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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2013, 09:19:21 AM »

I apologize for being vague.  Dome of the rock was modeled after Hagia Sophia.  The Temple has too many square angles.
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2013, 10:24:30 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.

I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built. 
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2013, 10:46:50 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.

I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built. 
Dang, and I was so looking forward to that cool architectural masterpiece.  Cry
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2013, 10:51:50 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.

I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built. 
Dang, and I was so looking forward to that cool architectural masterpiece.  Cry
If I won the lottery and was eccentric enough, I'd build it here in ’MERICA.
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2013, 11:01:58 AM »

Do Jewish rabbis use any liturgical vestments when they preside over ceremonies?
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2013, 11:14:40 AM »

Do Jewish rabbis use any liturgical vestments when they preside over ceremonies?

Other than tallit, tfilin and kippa (which all male Jews can wear) - none that I'm aware of.
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2013, 11:21:26 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.
I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built. 
Dang, and I was so looking forward to that cool architectural masterpiece.  Cry
If I won the lottery and was eccentric enough, I'd build it here in ’MERICA.

In Jackson County, Missouri, no doubt.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2013, 11:26:47 AM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.
I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built.  
Dang, and I was so looking forward to that cool architectural masterpiece.  Cry
If I won the lottery and was eccentric enough, I'd build it here in ’MERICA.

In Jackson County, Missouri, no doubt.  Smiley
Which would give me a reason to go there. Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2013, 12:15:38 PM »

I'm not gonna lie, their model of the proposed Third Temple is way cooler than the mosque that is currently there.  On that basis, I am totally in favor of risking WWIII to have the Dome blown up.  Cool architecture trumps everything.  Grin
http://www.templeinstitute.org/gallery_49.htm
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2013, 12:31:38 PM »

I'm not gonna lie, their model of the proposed Third Temple is way cooler than the mosque that is currently there.  On that basis, I am totally in favor of risking WWIII to have the Dome blown up.  Cool architecture trumps everything.  Grin
http://www.templeinstitute.org/gallery_49.htm

The photo galley reminds me of Jehovah's Witnesses' literature.
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2013, 12:44:51 PM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.
I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built.  
Dang, and I was so looking forward to that cool architectural masterpiece.  Cry
If I won the lottery and was eccentric enough, I'd build it here in ’MERICA.

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Which would give me a reason to go there. Cheesy

You can see the Temple Lot there even now!    Claimed by many LDS groups.   
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2013, 12:50:07 PM »

Why doesnt the modern Jewish God rebuild his temple already, it is time to see some animal sacrifices and a high priest!
Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.
I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built.  
Dang, and I was so looking forward to that cool architectural masterpiece.  Cry
If I won the lottery and was eccentric enough, I'd build it here in ’MERICA.

In Jackson County, Missouri, no doubt.  Smiley
Which would give me a reason to go there. Cheesy

You can see the Temple Lot there even now!    Claimed by many LDS groups.  

That's pretty hilarious.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/independence/

Quote
The Temple Lot is located in Jackson County—revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith to be the location of the Garden of Eden.

No, I would build the Temple in Lebanon, KS, generally considered the geographic center of the contiguous United State of America.  I would make sure to have lots of American flags around it.
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« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2013, 01:56:58 PM »

Well, there is only one God and he is the High Priest and the sacrifice.  He rebuilt the Temple in three days, too.  Jews just don't believe that it's Jesus Christ.

I agree.  Any rebuilding has already been done by Christ Himself.   The physical temple will most likely never be built.  

Some words are a mouthful, some paragraphs are an "eyeful"!



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« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2013, 06:16:24 PM »

I am a Jewish convert and feel no need to practice anything but my Orthodox Christian faith.  Has anyone read Fr. James Bernstein's, "Surprised by Christ?"  Fr. James speaks lovingly of his Jewish background and his conversion to EO.  It is also one of the best and clearest explanations of our faith.
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2013, 06:20:05 PM »

I enjoyed that book and have seen a talk of his on Youtube.
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2013, 09:41:41 PM »

I am a Jewish convert and feel no need to practice anything but my Orthodox Christian faith.  Has anyone read Fr. James Bernstein's, "Surprised by Christ?"  Fr. James speaks lovingly of his Jewish background and his conversion to EO.  It is also one of the best and clearest explanations of our faith.
I read the book and liked it alot. Fr. Bernstein does not propose in it that Jewish converts should follow unique Mosaic customs, although I remember hearing on the forum that he was keeping Kosher himself.
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2013, 10:07:59 PM »

I am a Jewish convert and feel no need to practice anything but my Orthodox Christian faith.  Has anyone read Fr. James Bernstein's, "Surprised by Christ?"  Fr. James speaks lovingly of his Jewish background and his conversion to EO.  It is also one of the best and clearest explanations of our faith.
I read the book and liked it alot. Fr. Bernstein does not propose in it that Jewish converts should follow unique Mosaic customs, although I remember hearing on the forum that he was keeping Kosher himself.

I'd be surprised if the Jewish Christian communities in Israel/Palestine didn't keep kosher. I've known a few non-observant Jews in the U.S. who keep kosher (albeit not the strict standards that halakha requires).
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2013, 10:16:13 PM »

I am a Jewish convert and feel no need to practice anything but my Orthodox Christian faith.  Has anyone read Fr. James Bernstein's, "Surprised by Christ?"  Fr. James speaks lovingly of his Jewish background and his conversion to EO.  It is also one of the best and clearest explanations of our faith.
I read the book and liked it alot. Fr. Bernstein does not propose in it that Jewish converts should follow unique Mosaic customs, although I remember hearing on the forum that he was keeping Kosher himself.

I'd be surprised if the Jewish Christian communities in Israel/Palestine didn't keep kosher. I've known a few non-observant Jews in the U.S. who keep kosher (albeit not the strict standards that halakha requires).


Indeed. I know an Athiest of Jewish raising that basically became a vegetarian because its just easier to keep track of the 'rules' that he can't bring himself to break. Despite his general non belief.

And that's here in the States.
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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2013, 12:09:05 PM »

Fr. James is my priest.  He does not follow any kosher diet.
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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2013, 07:21:14 PM »

Fr. James is my priest.  He does not follow any kosher diet.
Thank you for the clarification. I don't know where I got that from.
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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2013, 08:33:50 PM »

Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew

In my journey to Holy Orthodoxy I was involved with "Jews for Jesus" to some extent. And at the time I was a fallen away Roman Catholic who was disillusioned by the post happenings of VATII.  Keep in mind that my journey involved from not going to church at all to investigating other forms of Christianity.  I looked into Evangelicals, Pentecostalism, Anglicanism, etc. I hit upon Jews for Jesus and thought that maybe this was a fundamental means to salvation only to learn that all they were was a pseudo Protestant group using the OT as a way of luring Jews into Christianity.  Once I found Holy Orthodoxy I knew that this Jews for Jesus did not fulfill my need for the ancient and mystical Church of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2013, 09:44:14 PM »

Maybe there's a bunch of different strains of "Jewish Christianity" ?  When I was growing up, my folks got us all involved in a group like this -- but we called it Messianic Judaism. It was mostly Christians who were dissatisfied with the smorgasbord of Protestant options and wanted to "do it like Jesus did." In other words, a bunch of Christians who worshiped like Jews. We'd come together on Saturday nights and have a havdalah service, sing, dance, and learn the Bible (both OT and NT).  I actually look back on those times fondly, and still try to make challah whenever I can.

It ultimately brought me to Orthodoxy, so I can't complain.



Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew

In my journey to Holy Orthodoxy I was involved with "Jews for Jesus" to some extent. And at the time I was a fallen away Roman Catholic who was disillusioned by the post happenings of VATII.  Keep in mind that my journey involved from not going to church at all to investigating other forms of Christianity.  I looked into Evangelicals, Pentecostalism, Anglicanism, etc. I hit upon Jews for Jesus and thought that maybe this was a fundamental means to salvation only to learn that all they were was a pseudo Protestant group using the OT as a way of luring Jews into Christianity.  Once I found Holy Orthodoxy I knew that this Jews for Jesus did not fulfill my need for the ancient and mystical Church of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2013, 09:59:56 PM »

Maybe there's a bunch of different strains of "Jewish Christianity" ?  When I was growing up, my folks got us all involved in a group like this -- but we called it Messianic Judaism. It was mostly Christians who were dissatisfied with the smorgasbord of Protestant options and wanted to "do it like Jesus did." In other words, a bunch of Christians who worshiped like Jews. We'd come together on Saturday nights and have a havdalah service, sing, dance, and learn the Bible (both OT and NT).  I actually look back on those times fondly, and still try to make challah whenever I can.

It ultimately brought me to Orthodoxy, so I can't complain.



Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew

In my journey to Holy Orthodoxy I was involved with "Jews for Jesus" to some extent. And at the time I was a fallen away Roman Catholic who was disillusioned by the post happenings of VATII.  Keep in mind that my journey involved from not going to church at all to investigating other forms of Christianity.  I looked into Evangelicals, Pentecostalism, Anglicanism, etc. I hit upon Jews for Jesus and thought that maybe this was a fundamental means to salvation only to learn that all they were was a pseudo Protestant group using the OT as a way of luring Jews into Christianity.  Once I found Holy Orthodoxy I knew that this Jews for Jesus did not fulfill my need for the ancient and mystical Church of Jesus Christ.

I attended Jewish services with one of my buddies when I was at MP school. I found it far more edifying and spiritually uplifting than the Protestant services that were provided. If I had to pinpoint one event that started my search for the Ancient Church this would probably be it.
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« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2013, 04:09:51 AM »

I find with messianic Judaism there is this often not so subtle attempt to get people to go under the old law.

"well Jesus was baptised and ate kosher, why don't you?"

It also seems an attempt to invent a relatively ancient form of Christianity, although it is not a legitimate form of Christianity. There are some really weird messianic groups out there with a tonne of different beliefs.
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« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2014, 06:37:31 PM »

Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew
You mean Messianic Jews?
They are the fastest growing stream of Judaism and I find them very fascinating as they are normal Jews , or Complete Jews/Fulfilled Jews as they all themselves, but at the same time accept Jesus as their Messiah. They strictly follow their Jewish traditions as well as believing in Jesus and, frankly, I think that's how Jesus may have wanted it ...Matthew 5:17
"Jesus: Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."
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« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2014, 06:39:10 PM »

Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew
You mean Messianic Jews?
They are the fastest growing stream of Judaism and I find them very fascinating as they are normal Jews , or Complete Jews/Fulfilled Jews as they all themselves, but at the same time accept Jesus as their Messiah. They strictly follow their Jewish traditions as well as believing in Jesus and, frankly, I think that's how Jesus may have wanted it ...Matthew 5:17
"Jesus: Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

So, Andrew, should Christians be circumcised or baptized? Should they keep the Passover, or celebrate the Resurrection?
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« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2014, 06:42:47 PM »

Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew
You mean Messianic Jews?
They are the fastest growing stream of Judaism and I find them very fascinating as they are normal Jews , or Complete Jews/Fulfilled Jews as they all themselves, but at the same time accept Jesus as their Messiah. They strictly follow their Jewish traditions as well as believing in Jesus and, frankly, I think that's how Jesus may have wanted it ...Matthew 5:17
"Jesus: Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

So, Andrew, should Christians be circumcised or baptized? Should they keep the Passover, or celebrate the Resurrection?
Why is it a matter of or rather than of and?
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« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2014, 06:46:44 PM »

Jewish Christianity is the religious outlook & perspective adopted by a Jew
You mean Messianic Jews?
They are the fastest growing stream of Judaism and I find them very fascinating as they are normal Jews , or Complete Jews/Fulfilled Jews as they all themselves, but at the same time accept Jesus as their Messiah. They strictly follow their Jewish traditions as well as believing in Jesus and, frankly, I think that's how Jesus may have wanted it ...Matthew 5:17
"Jesus: Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

So, Andrew, should Christians be circumcised or baptized? Should they keep the Passover, or celebrate the Resurrection?
Why is it a matter of or rather than of and?

That is the very crux of the matter. Hint: the dispute in Acts, and St Peter's vision.

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« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2014, 06:49:51 PM »


That is the very crux of the matter. Hint: the dispute in Acts, and St Peter's vision.


The dispute in Acts was different though. Wink

Paul objected to the imposition of the Law on Gentiles. His problem was with the Jewish doctrine that one has to follow the Mosaic Law to be saved/justified.
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« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2014, 06:53:28 PM »


That is the very crux of the matter. Hint: the dispute in Acts, and St Peter's vision.


The dispute in Acts was different though. Wink

Paul objected to the imposition of the Law on Gentiles. His problem was with the Jewish doctrine that one has to follow the Mosaic Law to be saved/justified.

And Paul was right. The Mosaic Law did not need to be followed, as, now that Christ has come, there is neither Jew nor Greek. So, again, what of Peter's vision, and Passover/Resurrection? These are only a couple of examples.
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« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2014, 06:57:24 PM »


That is the very crux of the matter. Hint: the dispute in Acts, and St Peter's vision.


The dispute in Acts was different though. Wink

Paul objected to the imposition of the Law on Gentiles. His problem was with the Jewish doctrine that one has to follow the Mosaic Law to be saved/justified.

And Paul was right. The Mosaic Law did not need to be followed, as, now that Christ has come, there is neither Jew nor Greek. So, again, what of Peter's vision, and Passover/Resurrection? These are only a couple of examples.

Peter's vision was about the proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles. The Church did not allow the Mosaic Law to be an obstacle in the conversion of the Gentiles to Christianity.
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« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2014, 09:21:20 PM »


That is the very crux of the matter. Hint: the dispute in Acts, and St Peter's vision.


The dispute in Acts was different though. Wink

Paul objected to the imposition of the Law on Gentiles. His problem was with the Jewish doctrine that one has to follow the Mosaic Law to be saved/justified.

And Paul was right. The Mosaic Law did not need to be followed, as, now that Christ has come, there is neither Jew nor Greek. So, again, what of Peter's vision, and Passover/Resurrection? These are only a couple of examples.

Peter's vision was about the proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles. The Church did not allow the Mosaic Law to be an obstacle in the conversion of the Gentiles to Christianity.

So what do these "Messianic Jews" do? Eat the Passover lamb, and, a few days or weeks later, celebrate the resurrection? And whatever happened to The shadow of the Law has passed away? I'm sorry, but there are major conflicts between "full" Judaic practice, and Christian practice.


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« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2014, 09:31:25 PM »

:/ The thing is, the person who does this (a general term, no one in this thread in particular) does a disservice to both faiths. It's dishonorable to both Judaism and Christianity. They are both two different religions. You should pick one and not misrepresent the other.
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« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2014, 09:58:36 PM »

I'd be surprised if the Jewish Christian communities in Israel/Palestine didn't keep kosher. I've known a few non-observant Jews in the U.S. who keep kosher (albeit not the strict standards that halakha requires).

It's a bit strange, innit, that quite a few Jewish people who are atheists still maintain dietary laws and other rules (even Shimon Peres, who says that he's not religious, made quite a scene when he refused to travel on Saturdays and thus could not make it to the Olympic ceremonies last summer from his hotel), but here in America we can't even get many Orthodox Christians to fast at all, even half-assedly (I'll admit that I am terrible with fasting m'self)

Anyway, has anyone here ever been to Israel and met people from the Israeli community? I have a love of all Jewish languages, so I was bored one day and Googled "Yiddish translation of Saint John Chrysostom" (I really have no life; maybe my friends are right in that I should go clubbing with them  Cheesy). While I haven't found Yiddish (yet!), I have found Hebrew, and the story of how refugees from the Soviet Union who were sometimes only 1/16th or 1/8th Jewish claimed the Right of Return and settled in Israel. Some have retained the Russian language, others have embraced Hebrew. This is all I could find on the liturgy in Hebrew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGSM9oRr1Mo&lc=GfjJdS06bt4kAxZ6IjeR_m4EI0I0Z12ggr3TCQ91lcg.

Also, I was surprised to find out that there are more Jewish Christians in Russia than I ever thought (not that I ever thought that there were many, or that I ever really thought about it at all). The best example I can think of is that a speaker in the Knesset, Yuli Edelstein, is the son of a priest, Georgy Edelstein, who serves in Karabanovo. Does anyone know of any more interesting stories about Jewish Orthodox-Christians?
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« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2014, 10:18:25 PM »

:/ The thing is, the person who does this (a general term, no one in this thread in particular) does a disservice to both faiths. It's dishonorable to both Judaism and Christianity. They are both two different religions. You should pick one and not misrepresent the other.

Precisely. It should be one or the other, not a misguided mishmash.
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« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »

I don't think you can delete accidental posts?
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« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2014, 10:27:54 PM »

Does anyone know of any more interesting stories about Jewish Orthodox-Christians?
Israel Shamir is one.
www.israelshamir.net
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« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2014, 06:31:05 PM »

Does anyone know of any more interesting stories about Jewish Orthodox-Christians?

Acts of the Apostles?
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