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Author Topic: Im trying to be forgiving  (Read 1793 times) Average Rating: 0
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andrewlya
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« on: September 02, 2013, 03:03:36 PM »

Hi all,

I'd just like to share my frustration.

I love debating on religious topics,when I speak to agnostics etc I like speaking to them as long as they are being respectful and not insulting or calling God bad names or anything as it can put me off people big time, although id forgive them as we are meant to and it will be up to God to judge them after but I wont be able to think of them in the same way as before if they are being insulting about God. Sometimes I reluctant to talk about religion with my friends in case they say something I dont like and it may put them off them, its happened before as God comes 1st and I pray for God to forgive them and open their eyes.

Ive spoken to some agnostic today and who is a very good man, but a non believer and sadly he said something that quite hurt me when we were talking about Christianity, he after realised that he had upset me and kept appologising as he's a got a good character but anti religious,shamefully..

One of the things he was saying is that the OT is so violent, many wars and killings have been because of the religion, but I said atheists have killed many people too etc. I was saying that we ,as Christians, not meant to kill people and be kind, but he was referring to the OT saying it is vindictive referring to people were ordered to kill non believers,gays,so basically because of religion there is so much trouble in the world.

 Ive tried to defend by saying how loving Christianity is and kind but he and some other person kept talking about the OT atrocities, killings,fighting etc. I said we are not to follow it as the Old Scripture had been fulfilled etc. But ,nevertheless, the OT is par of the Bible,so they said because of the amount of violence in the OT, the NT was brought out to soften the religion sort of thing...

How can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion if people keep referring to the OT violence and a call to kill people in the name of religion?? If the Jews still follow the OT, then they are encouraged to kill non believers or non Jews as according to Torah, right?
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 03:43:10 PM »

The Jews were commanded to destroy certain nations, but for other nations, the LORD gave them laws of war.  I also do not think that the Talmud, which quite a few Jews follow to one degree or another, encourages violence.
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 03:46:07 PM »

The sort of response your looking for in a full paragraph is usually the work of an Apologist.


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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 03:53:37 PM »

The thing is that I have such a strong faith & try to be an appologist myself ,but if someone read the OT and some of the atrocities in it will just back up his theory that religion creates violence within people/nations,can could people be ordered to kill other people just because they don't have a belief? They should just be judged in there after life rather than being told to kill them in this life, my humble opinion..
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 05:54:38 PM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 05:59:26 PM by lovesupreme » Logged
andrewlya
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 06:02:54 PM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).

What you think when they say that "we pick and chose what to follow and what not" I.e. Follow the good parts as they are compatible with modern civilization and human way of life and ignore the violent "orders" that imposed on us in the Scriptures?
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 06:26:11 PM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).

What you think when they say that "we pick and chose what to follow and what not" I.e. Follow the good parts as they are compatible with modern civilization and human way of life and ignore the violent "orders" that imposed on us in the Scriptures?

I would say that they lack an understanding of what it means to be in Christ's body, i.e. the Church. But I would not fault them for their misunderstanding, because they probably absorbed it from the culture around them.

As Orthodox Christians, we don't adhere to the Bible alone; we adhere to the Church, who has given has the Bible and who interprets it for us.
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 12:17:26 PM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).


What you think when they say that "we pick and chose what to follow and what not" I.e. Follow the good parts as they are compatible with modern civilization and human way of life and ignore the violent "orders" that imposed on us in the Scriptures?

I would say that they lack an understanding of what it means to be in Christ's body, i.e. the Church. But I would not fault them for their misunderstanding, because they probably absorbed it from the culture around them.

As Orthodox Christians, we don't adhere to the Bible alone; we adhere to the Church, who has given has the Bible and who interprets it for us.

As Christians are we obliged to follow the orders of the OT?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 12:18:34 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 12:51:44 PM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 01:43:41 PM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).

+1

AFAIK, no one was ever argued into a belief in Christ.
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 02:11:45 PM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 02:16:09 PM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
What orders are you referencing?  Thou shalt have no other gods before me?  Yes, I would follow that one.  Don't eat shrimp?  No, I think you are good on foregoing that one.  Christ came to fulfill the law.  That means that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial and dietary law.  That does not exempt us from the greater law, the law of love.  We are still called to love God and our fellow man.
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 02:37:59 PM »

Quote
The thing is that I have such a strong faith & try to be an appologist myself ,but if someone read the OT and some of the atrocities in it will just back up his theory that religion creates violence within people/nations,can could people be ordered to kill other people just because they don't have a belief? They should just be judged in there after life rather than being told to kill them in this life, my humble opinion..

How about spending all the time you use for debating others for prayer?

Spend time in silence and in prayer and fasting and stop arguing with people.

Problem solved.
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 02:05:15 AM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).

+1

AFAIK, no one was ever argued into a belief in Christ.

I think these are good responses, not just for the OP, but personally. It speaks to me. I'm a debater, and I have to temper that with gentleness.

We may understand that certain peoples were destroyed for God's reasons. Many of them practiced child sacrifice and much more. But it's rare that any good comes of these debates, or understanding. Understanding comes from experience.

edit: I like PoorFoolNicholas' advice. Smiley
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andrewlya
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 06:54:25 AM »

Quote
The thing is that I have such a strong faith & try to be an appologist myself ,but if someone read the OT and some of the atrocities in it will just back up his theory that religion creates violence within people/nations,can could people be ordered to kill other people just because they don't have a belief? They should just be judged in there after life rather than being told to kill them in this life, my humble opinion..

How about spending all the time you use for debating others for prayer?

Spend time in silence and in prayer and fasting and stop arguing with people.

Problem solved.
Well,I don't normally start these conversations or debates,but if someone does,like in this case a person found out I'm a Christian so started to challenge me,I'm not just going to sit there quiet and listen to atheists views I'm going to stand up for what I believe.Its not called arguing its called protection the grace if God,would you take abuse of an athirst?i hope not.
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 08:47:54 AM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
What orders are you referencing?  Thou shalt have no other gods before me?  Yes, I would follow that one.  Don't eat shrimp?  No, I think you are good on foregoing that one.  Christ came to fulfill the law.  That means that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial and dietary law.  That does not exempt us from the greater law, the law of love.  We are still called to love God and our fellow man.
I'm referring to orders to kill the infidels for example.
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 09:09:50 AM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
What orders are you referencing?  Thou shalt have no other gods before me?  Yes, I would follow that one.  Don't eat shrimp?  No, I think you are good on foregoing that one.  Christ came to fulfill the law.  That means that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial and dietary law.  That does not exempt us from the greater law, the law of love.  We are still called to love God and our fellow man.
I'm referring to orders to kill the infidels for example.
I don't recall any general commandments to kill infidels in Scripture.  There were specific instances where Scripture is recorded whereby a specific instruction came from God to a specific person to go to war or kill a certain person or group of people, but that should not be interpreted as a blanket endorsement of such activity. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that doesn't mean we should all build altars and haul our kids up on them.
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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 11:01:35 AM »

would you take abuse of an athirst?i hope not.

If I were a better and more patient person, I hope that I would.

Responses that I have found work in situations like this: "Really? Why do you say that?" or "Do you have any sources for that so I can read it for myself?"
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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 11:09:47 AM »

Quote
Well,I don't normally start these conversations or debates,but if someone does,like in this case a person found out I'm a Christian so started to challenge me,I'm not just going to sit there quiet and listen to atheists views I'm going to stand up for what I believe.Its not called arguing its called protection the grace if God,would you take abuse of an athirst?i hope not.

My point is, is that this is all a distraction! If you are unhappy with your prayer life, aren't fasting enough, and denying yourself as you should, then all else is just noise. Stop wasting your time and put it to better use by drawing closer to The Holy Trinity.

And to answer your question:

It takes a certain amount of maturity to not worry about what others think about you. Be careful, pride is at the root of many a religious debate.

Pearls before swine brother.
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 11:37:01 AM »

Hi all,

I'd just like to share my frustration.

I love debating on religious topics,when I speak to agnostics etc I like speaking to them as long as they are being respectful and not insulting or calling God bad names or anything as it can put me off people big time, although id forgive them as we are meant to and it will be up to God to judge them after but I wont be able to think of them in the same way as before if they are being insulting about God. Sometimes I reluctant to talk about religion with my friends in case they say something I dont like and it may put them off them, its happened before as God comes 1st and I pray for God to forgive them and open their eyes.

Ive spoken to some agnostic today and who is a very good man, but a non believer and sadly he said something that quite hurt me when we were talking about Christianity, he after realised that he had upset me and kept appologising as he's a got a good character but anti religious,shamefully..

One of the things he was saying is that the OT is so violent, many wars and killings have been because of the religion, but I said atheists have killed many people too etc. I was saying that we ,as Christians, not meant to kill people and be kind, but he was referring to the OT saying it is vindictive referring to people were ordered to kill non believers,gays,so basically because of religion there is so much trouble in the world.

 Ive tried to defend by saying how loving Christianity is and kind but he and some other person kept talking about the OT atrocities, killings,fighting etc. I said we are not to follow it as the Old Scripture had been fulfilled etc. But ,nevertheless, the OT is par of the Bible,so they said because of the amount of violence in the OT, the NT was brought out to soften the religion sort of thing...

How can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion if people keep referring to the OT violence and a call to kill people in the name of religion?? If the Jews still follow the OT, then they are encouraged to kill non believers or non Jews as according to Torah, right?

You are not enough prepared to do this.
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2013, 02:52:11 PM »

Quote
Well,I don't normally start these conversations or debates,but if someone does,like in this case a person found out I'm a Christian so started to challenge me,I'm not just going to sit there quiet and listen to atheists views I'm going to stand up for what I believe.Its not called arguing its called protection the grace if God,would you take abuse of an athirst?i hope not.

My point is, is that this is all a distraction! If you are unhappy with your prayer life, aren't fasting enough, and denying yourself as you should, then all else is just noise. Stop wasting your time and put it to better use by drawing closer to The Holy Trinity.

And to answer your question:

It takes a certain amount of maturity to not worry about what others think about you. Be careful, pride is at the root of many a religious debate.

Pearls before swine brother.
I think everyone is different, Im a protective person and a sensitive when someone critisises our Faith.

I try to pray and fast, but I can't just sit there and take negatives things thrown at me by atheists.

I dont think it is being proud or anything,or maybe it does have to do with my pride, my pride in being a Christian.

Im not afraid of debating with somebody who wants to debate or have objections or doubts about the Faith, because we are here to explain people otherwise how can we help people find the truth?

I dont specifically start religious conversations but if someone does, I wont sit back and listen to anti religious stuff. It feels insulting, it's more insulting than if someone abuses your family...

 I my opinion we should defend it in a respectful, none foul language or aggressive manner, but give well structured and intelligent answers back to those people. Being patient and showing how strong in Faith Christian people are.

I dont want to be a push over when it comes to Faith, definitely not.
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 02:54:45 PM »

Jesus was crucified knowing He is God.  An atheist can spout off a lot of nothing, but if it doesn't shake you from your faith, what has been lost or gained? 
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2013, 03:01:32 PM »

I just dont understand how you could all just take these insults, does it not hurt you when they say bad stuff about it?
Does not not hurt your heart? If somebody was verbally abusing your mother or father, would you not be offended?
If somebody critisies God, this is even worse!

It definitely touches my religious feelings and I feel compelled to put them straight, but like I said always communicate in a civilised way,there is nothing wrong with me being apologetic about my faith.

That's how it should be, we should not be afraid to answer back if you believe strong enough.  
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 03:09:02 PM »

I just dont understand how you could all just take these insults, does it not hurt you when they say bad stuff about it?
Does not not hurt your heart?

It definitely touches my religious feelings and I feel compelled to put them straight, but like I said always communicate in a civilised way,there is nothing wrong with me being apologetic about my faith.

That's how it should be, we should not be afraid to answer back if you believe strong enough. 
Much depends on where the other person is.  If they are actually interested in learning more about Christianity, I will gladly talk with them for as long as they want.  If they just want to mock it, it is best to just ignore it.  Nothing you say will impact them and graciously and politely ignoring the mocking is a better testimony than getting into an argument.  You can always go to a quiet place afterward and pray for them.  It takes much more strength to accept and bear the mocking than it does to argue with them.  Christ demonstrated this Himself when the Sanhedrin mocked Him.
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2013, 03:14:40 PM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago. 

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2013, 03:25:13 PM »

I know this response will get some scoffs, but regarding "how can we convince people that Christianity is a kind and loving religion"? Be a kind and loving Christian. Don't try squaring off with atheists and agnostics, hoping to win them over with arguments. I guarantee that they see you as a well-meaning fool who's only digging himself into a deeper hole. Drop this debate and show them Christ. They'll probably still think you odd, but maybe years from now, one of them will hit a spiritual bump and turn to you for help. Or maybe that won't happen. Who knows?

And when you feel like you can't bring yourself to forgive these people, beg for God's mercy, that He may turn your heart. Their offenses are probably much less grievous than your own (I'm not saying that to make you feel bad, but to remind you that each one of us must view ourselves as the chief of all sinners).

+1

AFAIK, no one was ever argued into a belief in Christ.
I dunno I think arguments are what matter.

Not to say that has anything to do with my faith tho.
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2013, 03:25:59 PM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago. 

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2013, 05:05:01 PM »

I just dont understand how you could all just take these insults, does it not hurt you when they say bad stuff about it?
Does not not hurt your heart? If somebody was verbally abusing your mother or father, would you not be offended?
If somebody critisies God, this is even worse!

It definitely touches my religious feelings and I feel compelled to put them straight, but like I said always communicate in a civilised way,there is nothing wrong with me being apologetic about my faith.

That's how it should be, we should not be afraid to answer back if you believe strong enough.  

No. It doesn't hurt me - frankly why do I care what ignorant people say about God or my faith? They're just wrong, that's all, and mostly trying to start an argument so that they can prove how stupid and wrong Christians are. I don't have the time, energy or inclination to play that game.
Now if someone wants to have an actual discussion, then I'm all for it, and we can sit and talk til the cows come home.
Perhaps others meet a better class of atheist than I, but arguing with them is futile - they are fully convinced that I am a moron and they are intellectually superior - why burst their bubble? They only want to know what you think/believe so that they can prove you're wrong.
Actually once upon a time, you might have thought that God had personally appointed me to set everyone straight. Then I became Orthodox and realized just how little I knew about anything. Very humbling.
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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 05:51:36 PM »

Every person is different, I may be overprotective of what I believe.
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2013, 02:22:41 AM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago.  

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.

The Heavenly Father is less merciful, understanding and forgiving than you?
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2013, 06:00:30 AM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago.  

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.

The Heavenly Father is less merciful, understanding and forgiving than you?
what kind if question is that!Of course He is,but if they don't realise they need to ask for forgiveness from Him we should do it on their behalf like Jesus did
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2013, 06:18:42 AM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
What orders are you referencing?  Thou shalt have no other gods before me?  Yes, I would follow that one.  Don't eat shrimp?  No, I think you are good on foregoing that one.  Christ came to fulfill the law.  That means that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial and dietary law.  That does not exempt us from the greater law, the law of love.  We are still called to love God and our fellow man.
I'm referring to orders to kill the infidels for example.
I don't recall any general commandments to kill infidels in Scripture.  There were specific instances where Scripture is recorded whereby a specific instruction came from God to a specific person to go to war or kill a certain person or group of people, but that should not be interpreted as a blanket endorsement of such activity. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that doesn't mean we should all build altars and haul our kids up on them.
How do you interpret this?Is it not order?Do we have to follow it?If not,why not?                                "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2013, 06:56:54 AM »

Every person is different, I may be overprotective of what I believe.

There is a time and place for all things, including defending the Faith.  If your overprotectiveness is coming from anger (not righteous, just plain old anger) or being offended, do you think what you say will have much effect?  Let's think of the martyrs and confessors who spoke with authority, because God gave them the correct words to say at that given time.
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2013, 06:59:03 AM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago.  

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.

The Heavenly Father is less merciful, understanding and forgiving than you?
what kind if question is that!Of course He is,but if they don't realise they need to ask for forgiveness from Him we should do it on their behalf like Jesus did

The way I see it this is more about you and your ego. You feel ur ego faith, philosophy,etc insulted when atheists disagree with your apologetics esspecially is they do it in a more decisive and rude manner.
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2013, 07:52:09 AM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
What orders are you referencing?  Thou shalt have no other gods before me?  Yes, I would follow that one.  Don't eat shrimp?  No, I think you are good on foregoing that one.  Christ came to fulfill the law.  That means that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial and dietary law.  That does not exempt us from the greater law, the law of love.  We are still called to love God and our fellow man.
I'm referring to orders to kill the infidels for example.
I don't recall any general commandments to kill infidels in Scripture.  There were specific instances where Scripture is recorded whereby a specific instruction came from God to a specific person to go to war or kill a certain person or group of people, but that should not be interpreted as a blanket endorsement of such activity. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that doesn't mean we should all build altars and haul our kids up on them.
How do you interpret this?Is it not order?Do we have to follow it?If not,why not?                                "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

This came from the book of Deuteronomy where Moses lays out the civil law for the Israelite nation.  Those are not words directly from God to all those who would follow Him, they are the words of Moses to the people of Israel.  Obviously, God gave Moses the authority to establish laws for governance, but that should not be construed as God's universal proclamation to all peoples and lands. God gives our modern governments authority to make rules for governance as well, but that doesn't mean every law they pass is an immutable law for eternity.
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2013, 10:24:23 AM »

Every person is different, I may be overprotective of what I believe.

There is a time and place for all things, including defending the Faith.  If your overprotectiveness is coming from anger (not righteous, just plain old anger) or being offended, do you think what you say will have much effect?  Let's think of the martyrs and confessors who spoke with authority, because God gave them the correct words to say at that given time.
It's not out of anger at all as I'm not angry or agressive person.Like I said I debate it in a calm way and happy to be able to over come their objections about our Faith.
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2013, 10:26:31 AM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago.  

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.

The Heavenly Father is less merciful, understanding and forgiving than you?
what kind if question is that!Of course He is,but if they don't realise they need to ask for forgiveness from Him we should do it on their behalf like Jesus did

The way I see it this is more about you and your ego. You feel ur ego faith, philosophy,etc insulted when atheists disagree with your apologetics esspecially is they do it in a more decisive and rude manner.
Wrong.If they insulted me id not have been half offended as l was offended by the thing they said about our God and its quite natural to feel the way I felt and reacted to that because I've Faith.
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2013, 10:31:10 AM »

I am of the mindset that the OT was written from the perspective of a more primitive society who did not have the fullness of Truth revealed to them, so that must be kept in mind when reading the OT.  It is kind of like listening to my children talk about God.  They say all sorts of thinks that are immature, because they are immature, they are just small children.  Likewise, when you have ancient societies boasting about how their God is stronger and can kick everyone else's butt, it isn't that it is false or God is some ogre, it is just that they had a much more limited understanding of who God is.  If you read the OT, you will notice that the perspective of God changes quite a bit from the Pentatuch through the times of the prophets. If you read the book of Jonah or really any of the prophets, you don't really see the same perspective of God that you see in Genesis, Joshua or 1 Samuel.  We have been given thousands of years of revelation, we should not use that to judge those who did not have such revelation.
So, are we meant to follow the orders of the OT or not? That's the question.
What orders are you referencing?  Thou shalt have no other gods before me?  Yes, I would follow that one.  Don't eat shrimp?  No, I think you are good on foregoing that one.  Christ came to fulfill the law.  That means that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial and dietary law.  That does not exempt us from the greater law, the law of love.  We are still called to love God and our fellow man.
I'm referring to orders to kill the infidels for example.
I don't recall any general commandments to kill infidels in Scripture.  There were specific instances where Scripture is recorded whereby a specific instruction came from God to a specific person to go to war or kill a certain person or group of people, but that should not be interpreted as a blanket endorsement of such activity. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that doesn't mean we should all build altars and haul our kids up on them.
How do you interpret this?Is it not order?Do we have to follow it?If not,why not?                                "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

This came from the book of Deuteronomy where Moses lays out the civil law for the Israelite nation.  Those are not words directly from God to all those who would follow Him, they are the words of Moses to the people of Israel.  Obviously, God gave Moses the authority to establish laws for governance, but that should not be construed as God's universal proclamation to all peoples and lands. God gives our modern governments authority to make rules for governance as well, but that doesn't mean every law they pass is an immutable law for eternity.
Thank you.Id like to believe that.
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« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2013, 10:47:33 AM »

Every person is different, I may be overprotective of what I believe.

There is a time and place for all things, including defending the Faith.  If your overprotectiveness is coming from anger (not righteous, just plain old anger) or being offended, do you think what you say will have much effect?  Let's think of the martyrs and confessors who spoke with authority, because God gave them the correct words to say at that given time.
It's not out of anger at all as I'm not angry or agressive person.Like I said I debate it in a calm way and happy to be able to over come their objections about our Faith.
Until you get offended and feel the need to defend Truth from people who have chosen not to believe.  They argue with you by picking and choosing parts of the OT that offends them without having context.  Our faith is a scandal to those outside of it.  It has always been that way and always will be.  What do you do when an atheist offends you and does not apologize?
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« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2013, 02:25:51 PM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago.  

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.

The Heavenly Father is less merciful, understanding and forgiving than you?
what kind if question is that!Of course He is,but if they don't realise they need to ask for forgiveness from Him we should do it on their behalf like Jesus did

The way I see it this is more about you and your ego. You feel ur ego faith, philosophy,etc insulted when atheists disagree with your apologetics esspecially is they do it in a more decisive and rude manner.
Wrong.If they insulted me id not have been half offended as l was offended by the thing they said about our God and its quite natural to feel the way I felt and reacted to that because I've Faith.

Of course it is somewhere about you.. You also think you can forgive this people without saying sorry, and that somehow God cannot do that, because they will need first to ask pardon to them. Or that if they say things about you you don't get offended but if they say things about God, He does.

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andrewlya
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« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 02:44:00 PM »

Every person is different, I may be overprotective of what I believe.

There is a time and place for all things, including defending the Faith.  If your overprotectiveness is coming from anger (not righteous, just plain old anger) or being offended, do you think what you say will have much effect?  Let's think of the martyrs and confessors who spoke with authority, because God gave them the correct words to say at that given time.
It's not out of anger at all as I'm not angry or agressive person.Like I said I debate it in a calm way and happy to be able to over come their objections about our Faith.
Until you get offended and feel the need to defend Truth from people who have chosen not to believe.  They argue with you by picking and choosing parts of the OT that offends them without having context.  Our faith is a scandal to those outside of it.  It has always been that way and always will be.  What do you do when an atheist offends you and does not apologize?

I dont go into a rage,thats for sure.
Id normally just ask God for their forgiveness and to open their eyes.

 Usually what happens is that Ive known some really nice people, who are great to talk to and who are just genuinely nice people, some of them I thought are my friends, but once they say something offensive about God I just get utterly disappointed with them and ask myself why are these people like that, everything is nice about them why cant they just have a Belief or at least dont say anything offensive about God..
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« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2013, 02:44:50 PM »

Do you stop being their friend?
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andrewlya
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« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2013, 02:49:06 PM »

Yet God remains God.  When I was a child riding the bus to school, the kid behind me (same age) kept insulting my mother.  This went on morning and afternoon for a week.  One morning, I got tired of it.  So I punched him in the face twice.  I was kicked off the bus for two days as punishment.  My mom didn't know what was said about her or even knew the other kid.  It did not change the fact that my mom was upset that she had to drive me to school for two days.  It also didn't change the fact that she loves me.  God will still love you whether you open your mouth to defend Him (He doesn't need it, BTW) or not.  He also loves that atheist more than you ever will.  He loves that boy that insulted my mom those many years ago.  

To end that, many months later that boy apologized to me and I forgave him.  I wonder if we would have been friends sooner if I had forgiven him sooner.

That's what exactly happened, as I was protecting Christianity and God and even though I kept my composure, he saw on my face I was quite offended.As a result of that, he did appologise that he had offended me, I of course forgave him.

 I was happy and felt better that I did not stand for those comments and managed to speak back, which I felt right and I'd do it again as I stand firmly for what I believe.

The fact of the matter is that he did not know that it is not me he should ask for forgiveness from but from our Heavenly Father. But I prayed for his forgiveness later as he has no knowledge of Truth.

The Heavenly Father is less merciful, understanding and forgiving than you?
what kind if question is that!Of course He is,but if they don't realise they need to ask for forgiveness from Him we should do it on their behalf like Jesus did

The way I see it this is more about you and your ego. You feel ur ego faith, philosophy,etc insulted when atheists disagree with your apologetics esspecially is they do it in a more decisive and rude manner.
Wrong.If they insulted me id not have been half offended as l was offended by the thing they said about our God and its quite natural to feel the way I felt and reacted to that because I've Faith.

Of course it is somewhere about you.. You also think you can forgive this people without saying sorry, and that somehow God cannot do that, because they will need first to ask pardon to them. Or that if they say things about you you don't get offended but if they say things about God, He does.


I just dont understand why you are trying to find a fault in me.

Im sorry but I do get offended when it comes to God,yes Im sensitive about it. If you dont then it is your choice.You obviously dont feel what I can feel.But that's ok, we are different people and Im not saying im better than you,just different.

All Im saying is that everyone feels different about God, when one insults someone very close to you and whom you love so much, you are bound, naturally, feel offended.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:55:01 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2013, 02:49:23 PM »

I find that pronouncing an anathema upon them is usually the best way to proceed in situations like that.
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« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2013, 02:50:14 PM »

Do you stop being their friend?
It can happen, depends if they purposely and frequently mock, then it is logical to go apart..
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:51:59 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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