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Author Topic: Savonarola  (Read 840 times) Average Rating: 0
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John of Patmos
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« on: September 02, 2013, 11:00:57 AM »

So, opinions on Florence's famous Dominican?  Does anyone consider him a saint?  I mean, Joan of Arc was excommunicated and burned too, and it took like 700 years for a canonization.
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 11:05:43 AM »

St. Maximos the Greek liked him a lot, iirc.
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 12:08:40 PM »

So, opinions on Florence's famous Dominican?  Does anyone consider him a saint?  I mean, Joan of Arc was excommunicated and burned too, and it took like 700 years for a canonization.

Can you perhaps use the name and maybe a link with more information, that is, if your intention is to have a discussion with folks who aren't already "in the know"?

Okay, now I get it. Sorry.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 12:21:41 PM by Shanghaiski » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 12:09:20 PM »

I strongly doubt that there will be any declaration of sainthood for Savonarola.  I have a biography of him that I can get to fairly quickly if you're interested.  I can get it after doing an errand.

The situations of Joan of Arc and Savonarola were quite different just for starters.  She did not take power politically while he did to some measure.

More later
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 12:11:33 PM »

So, opinions on Florence's famous Dominican?  Does anyone consider him a saint?  I mean, Joan of Arc was excommunicated and burned too, and it took like 700 years for a canonization.

Can you perhaps use the name and maybe a link with more information, that is, if your intention is to have a discussion with folks who aren't already "in the know"?

Here's theSavonarola basic link for the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savonarola

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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 12:25:40 PM »

Is the question whether the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox will glorify him? He's not ours, unlike Jerome of Prague, who received Orthodox baptism in Lithuania and was burned at the stake by the papists for preaching a return to Orthopraxis.
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John of Patmos
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 07:47:21 PM »

Jerome of Prague became Orthodox?
Gee did I miss the memo!
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 07:51:29 PM »

St. Maximus the Greek thought that, had Savonarola been Orthodox, he would surely have been a saint. You can read more here: http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/2010/02/vouchsafed-intelligence-of-rhetorsst.html
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2013, 07:52:58 PM »

Is the question whether the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox will glorify him? He's not ours, unlike Jerome of Prague, who received Orthodox baptism in Lithuania and was burned at the stake by the papists for preaching a return to Orthopraxis.

He was a Hussite, I thought? And burnt for it.
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2013, 08:37:06 PM »

I strongly doubt that there will be any declaration of sainthood for Savonarola.

The Dominicans are trying to intoduce his cause.
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2013, 09:31:08 PM »

I strongly doubt that there will be any declaration of sainthood for Savonarola.

The Dominicans are trying to intoduce his cause.

The irony of the former persecutors (The Dominicans and Franciscans were the (un)Holy Inquisition) becoming instruments in promoting his cause for canonisation should escape no one. And this barbaric activity was undertaken with the Inquisitors responsible only to the Pope.
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 09:48:59 PM »

The irony of the former persecutors (The Dominicans and Franciscans were the (un)Holy Inquisition) becoming instruments in promoting his cause for canonisation should escape no one. And this barbaric activity was undertaken with the Inquisitors responsible only to the Pope.

If Savonarola is anything like how he was depicted in The Borgias, then he both makes me laugh and scares the socks out of me.  Then again, so did almost everyone else, each in his own way, in that show.  

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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 09:59:41 PM »

Is the question whether the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox will glorify him? He's not ours, unlike Jerome of Prague, who received Orthodox baptism in Lithuania and was burned at the stake by the papists for preaching a return to Orthopraxis.

He was a Hussite, I thought? And burnt for it.

Well, he was baptized Orthodox on his trip to Lithuania. If you look a what he and Jan Hus were for, it wasn't Protestantism, unlike the later Moravians. IIRC, it was Creed sans Filioque, married clergy, communion in both kinds.
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 10:13:47 PM »

Is the question whether the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox will glorify him? He's not ours, unlike Jerome of Prague, who received Orthodox baptism in Lithuania and was burned at the stake by the papists for preaching a return to Orthopraxis.

He was a Hussite, I thought? And burnt for it.

Well, he was baptized Orthodox on his trip to Lithuania. If you look a what he and Jan Hus were for, it wasn't Protestantism, unlike the later Moravians. IIRC, it was Creed sans Filioque, married clergy, communion in both kinds.

And 'Justification by Grace through Faith Alone' and Pietism sound like a form of Protestantism pre dating Martin Luther, and has similarities with Calvin. Certainly they appeared to have rejected some Latin innovations and among earlier Protestants there were differences between the earliest 'versions' and 'later' forms. But does this add up to Orthodoxy, I ask?
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2013, 10:41:59 PM »

Where do you get the other stuff from? What I read didn't include that.

Anyway, I have read that the Czech Orthodox church has Jerome's baptismal certificate and there is veneration for them both--and possible approval of glorification from other local Orthodox churches.

Clearly, there is more to the story, I think.
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 05:09:05 PM »

My understanding is that there was some overlap between the Orthodox and the Hussites. I think I read somewhere that the Orthodox refutations of the council of Florence were received with enthusiasm by the Hussites and distributed by them. I can't find the source now though.  Undecided
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 10:08:20 PM »

The irony of the former persecutors (The Dominicans and Franciscans were the (un)Holy Inquisition) becoming instruments in promoting his cause for canonisation should escape no one. And this barbaric activity was undertaken with the Inquisitors responsible only to the Pope.

If Savonarola is anything like how he was depicted in The Borgias, then he both makes me laugh and scares the s___ out of me.  Then again, so did almost everyone else, each in his own way, in that show.  

FWIW I recall an interview in which the director of the miniseries took issue with critics who said the series was historically inaccurate by stating he was a storyteller, not a history professor. So, I'm not sure the Borgias series did credit to anyone portrayed. Probably why it got cancelled.
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2013, 03:45:03 PM »

And 'Justification by Grace through Faith Alone' and Pietism sound like a form of Protestantism pre dating Martin Luther, and has similarities with Calvin.

"By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."
-the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
(Catholic Church and Lutheran World Federation, 1999)
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 05:40:01 PM »

"By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."
-the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
(Catholic Church and Lutheran World Federation, 1999)
That is one of the most wishy-washy documents ever signed by the Catholic Church. I wrote an essay about it a few years ago, and entitled the paper, "The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification: True Consensus or an Agreement to Disagree."
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 05:51:53 PM »

The irony of the former persecutors (The Dominicans and Franciscans were the (un)Holy Inquisition) becoming instruments in promoting his cause for canonisation should escape no one. And this barbaric activity was undertaken with the Inquisitors responsible only to the Pope.

If Savonarola is anything like how he was depicted in The Borgias, then he both makes me laugh and scares the s___ out of me.  Then again, so did almost everyone else, each in his own way, in that show.  

FWIW I recall an interview in which the director of the miniseries took issue with critics who said the series was historically inaccurate by stating he was a storyteller, not a history professor. So, I'm not sure the Borgias series did credit to anyone portrayed. Probably why it got cancelled.

A reason why I refuse to learn my history from historical dramas, e.g. Braveheart.
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 06:10:56 PM »

The irony of the former persecutors (The Dominicans and Franciscans were the (un)Holy Inquisition) becoming instruments in promoting his cause for canonisation should escape no one. And this barbaric activity was undertaken with the Inquisitors responsible only to the Pope.

If Savonarola is anything like how he was depicted in The Borgias, then he both makes me laugh and scares the s___ out of me.  Then again, so did almost everyone else, each in his own way, in that show.  

FWIW I recall an interview in which the director of the miniseries took issue with critics who said the series was historically inaccurate by stating he was a storyteller, not a history professor. So, I'm not sure the Borgias series did credit to anyone portrayed. Probably why it got cancelled.

I highly recommend the European (arguably transcontinental) Borgia over the American The Borgias.

And history professors are usually the worst people to learn history from, but if you care about the opinion of one who is sane on the relative merit of the two TV shows above:

http://exurbe.com/?p=2176
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 07:26:56 PM »

"By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."
-the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
(Catholic Church and Lutheran World Federation, 1999)
That is one of the most wishy-washy documents ever signed by the Catholic Church. I wrote an essay about it a few years ago, and entitled the paper, "The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification: True Consensus or an Agreement to Disagree."

It was something though. (The above quote is one example.) If not, the Catholic Church would have made like the LCMS, i.e. not signed.
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2013, 08:24:09 PM »

The irony of the former persecutors (The Dominicans and Franciscans were the (un)Holy Inquisition) becoming instruments in promoting his cause for canonisation should escape no one. And this barbaric activity was undertaken with the Inquisitors responsible only to the Pope.

If Savonarola is anything like how he was depicted in The Borgias, then he both makes me laugh and scares the s___ out of me.  Then again, so did almost everyone else, each in his own way, in that show.  

FWIW I recall an interview in which the director of the miniseries took issue with critics who said the series was historically inaccurate by stating he was a storyteller, not a history professor. So, I'm not sure the Borgias series did credit to anyone portrayed. Probably why it got cancelled.

I highly recommend the European (arguably transcontinental) Borgia over the American The Borgias.

And history professors are usually the worst people to learn history from, but if you care about the opinion of one who is sane on the relative merit of the two TV shows above:

http://exurbe.com/?p=2176

That article was long, but worth reading for I found his point of view resonating with much of how we moderns try to frame Orthodoxy in terms of historicity, modern practice and yes - development of rubric and theology. Interesting..Thanks for posting it...
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