Topic: Kollyvades Movement

[Maria]

The movement arose in 1754 out of a dispute within the Skete of St. Anne at Mount Athos when a group of monks objected to the scheduling of the commemoration of the dead on Sunday, the day that represented the Resurrection and Christ's victory over death, instead of Saturday or weekdays as it had been according to ancient custom.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Kollyvades_Movement

The Kollyvades also encouraged frequent communion.

Saints involved with this movement included St. Nektarios of Aegina and St. Nicholas Planas among others.

Does your jurisdiction allow the commemoration of the dead on Sundays?

From personal experience, I know that the local West Coast parishes of the OCA, GOARCH, and Antiochians all schedule the commemoration of the dead on Sunday either just before or just after the Sunday Divine Liturgy. Whether this practice is just a parish practice or is universal in these jurisdictions is another matter.

[LBK]

In my time in Orthodoxy across Russian and Greek jurisdictions, I've been present at mnymosina and panikhidi held on every day of the week, including Sundays.

I've even been to a Bright Week funeral, held for a woman who died on the day of Pascha. The hymns and prayers are a condensed version of the paschal services, with little of the penitential content of a standard funeral service. However, AFAIK, memorials are not held during Bright Week.

[LizaSymonenko]

The dead are commemorated each Sunday, not only in individual panakhydas, but during the Proskomedia, and the names are read at the Altar table following the reading of the names of the living.

That's how we do it, in my Ukrainian parish.

The reading of the individual submitted names does not occur at the Paschal Liturgy, and sometimes omitted at major Feast Days mostly to save time. The reading of the names takes anywhere from 10-15 minutes.

[Mor Ephrem]

What "memorials" for the departed were the Kollyvades Fathers concerned to prohibit on Sundays? 

In our Church, for example, funerals cannot be celebrated on Sundays, but the dead are commemorated in all the usual places during the Divine Liturgy.  The offering of incense for the departed (our usual "memorial service", roughly equivalent to the EO Trisagion service for the departed) is not only allowed on Sundays, but is always included at Vespers, Midnight Office, and Matins, never being omitted under any circumstances (it is most often also included at the Liturgy, but is not as mandatory).  While they are "general" commemorations, most often people will include specific names if observing an anniversary, if newly departed, etc.  We regard the commemoration of the dead as the "flip side" of the Sunday commemoration of the Lord's resurrection, and so there's no conflict with the paschal character of Sunday.   

[mike]

I've been present at mnymosina and panikhidi held on every day of the week, including Sundays.

Been there too.

I've even been to a Bright Week funeral, held for a woman who died on the day of Pascha.

Been there too.

The reading of the names takes anywhere from 10-15 minutes.

And I thought my parish does it longly.

[Romaios]

What "memorials" for the departed were the Kollyvades Fathers concerned to prohibit on Sundays? 

In our Church, for example, funerals cannot be celebrated on Sundays, but the dead are commemorated in all the usual places during the Divine Liturgy.  The offering of incense for the departed (our usual "memorial service", roughly equivalent to the EO Trisagion service for the departed) is not only allowed on Sundays, but is always included at Vespers, Midnight Office, and Matins, never being omitted under any circumstances (it is most often also included at the Liturgy, but is not as mandatory).  While they are "general" commemorations, most often people will include specific names if observing an anniversary, if newly departed, etc.  We regard the commemoration of the dead as the "flip side" of the Sunday commemoration of the Lord's resurrection, and so there's no conflict with the paschal character of Sunday.   

No Trisagion services or Panikhidas and no special ektenia (after the Gospel Reading, with censing) for the departed on Sundays. That ought to be the rule, theoretically. As far as general commemorations (living & the dead at Proskomedia, for instance) and funerals are concerned, I think they are permitted.

In practice, this rule is bent a lot, especially since for some people it seems hard to make it to church unless it's Sunday. Saturday is the day when the departed ought to be properly commemorated. 

Reading names aloud for 10-15 minutes is something our priest doesn't do. That's what Proskomedia is for. We do have someone (several people, actually) go through "the diptychs" silently every day, though. 

[Santagranddad]

What "memorials" for the departed were the Kollyvades Fathers concerned to prohibit on Sundays? 

In our Church, for example, funerals cannot be celebrated on Sundays, but the dead are commemorated in all the usual places during the Divine Liturgy.  The offering of incense for the departed (our usual "memorial service", roughly equivalent to the EO Trisagion service for the departed) is not only allowed on Sundays, but is always included at Vespers, Midnight Office, and Matins, never being omitted under any circumstances (it is most often also included at the Liturgy, but is not as mandatory).  While they are "general" commemorations, most often people will include specific names if observing an anniversary, if newly departed, etc.  We regard the commemoration of the dead as the "flip side" of the Sunday commemoration of the Lord's resurrection, and so there's no conflict with the paschal character of Sunday.   

No Trisagion services or Panikhidas and no special ektenia (after the Gospel Reading, with censing) for the departed on Sundays. That ought to be the rule, theoretically. As far as general commemorations (living & the dead at Proskomedia, for instance) and funerals are concerned, I think they are permitted.

In practice, this rule is bent a lot, especially since for some people it seems hard to make it to church unless it's Sunday. Saturday is the day when the departed ought to be properly commemorated. 

Reading names aloud for 10-15 minutes is something our priest doesn't do. That's what Proskomedia is for. We do have someone (several people, actually) go through "the diptychs" silently every day, though. 

Agree....

[podkarpatska]

In my time in Orthodoxy across Russian and Greek jurisdictions, I've been present at mnymosina and panikhidi held on every day of the week, including Sundays.

I've even been to a Bright Week funeral, held for a woman who died on the day of Pascha. The hymns and prayers are a condensed version of the paschal services, with little of the penitential content of a standard funeral service. However, AFAIK, memorials are not held during Bright Week.

I note that even those of us whose Orthodox jurisdictions were formed by Eastern Catholics follow the practices described by LBK...including the Bright Week funeral practice. So, I suspect this reflects common, if not world wide Orthodox practices. The old Greek Catholic typicons and Sluzebniks/(cantors service books) reflected that practice.

(My father reposed in Bright Week after sixty five years as a priest, our Bishop knew how he loved the Paschal services, and that he took his usual part in them in the days prior to his death, so he used the Bright Week rubrics at his funeral. The chanting by the full church was remarkable and indelible in the memories of those present.)

[arimethea]

Does your jurisdiction allow the commemoration of the dead on Sundays?

From personal experience, I know that the local West Coast parishes of the OCA, GOARCH, and Antiochians all schedule the commemoration of the dead on Sunday either just before or just after the Sunday Divine Liturgy. Whether this practice is just a parish practice or is universal in these jurisdictions is another matter.

We have become a Sunday only church for many people. In those parishes where Sunday services are the only services offered you will get Memorials on Sunday. In some parishes I have seen this become a big money maker for the parish (they have fees for everything, $200-$300 for Koliva to be made).

In parishes where daily services are offered the healthy practice of celebrating the memorial on the actual day (40 day and annually) has become normal.

After the 40 day, and 1 year, the Soul Saturdays should be the norm for memorials, but we have many who still want the memorials on Sunday when everyone can see that they love and remember their departed.

[podkarpatska]

In reading up on the Kollyvades Movement on OrhodoxWiki, I came across this:

"The Kollyvades movement strove for a rediscovery of Patristic theology and a liturgical life that included frequent communion. The movement came under assault by many at Mount Athos and elsewhere, attacks that became, at times, vicious and beyond what one would expect from monastics and clergy of any rankos and elsewhere."

I couldn't help but think how the same observation could be applied to us in our lives today, both online and in our parish lives.  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Kollyvades_Movement

That is something for us all to reflect and pray upon.

[ialmisry]

In my time in Orthodoxy across Russian and Greek jurisdictions, I've been present at mnymosina and panikhidi held on every day of the week, including Sundays.

I've even been to a Bright Week funeral, held for a woman who died on the day of Pascha. The hymns and prayers are a condensed version of the paschal services, with little of the penitential content of a standard funeral service. However, AFAIK, memorials are not held during Bright Week.

I note that even those of us whose Orthodox jurisdictions were formed by Eastern Catholics follow the practices described by LBK...including the Bright Week funeral practice. So, I suspect this reflects common, if not world wide Orthodox practices. The old Greek Catholic typicons and Sluzebniks/(cantors service books) reflected that practice.

(My father reposed in Bright Week after sixty five years as a priest, our Bishop knew how he loved the Paschal services, and that he took his usual part in them in the days prior to his death, so he used the Bright Week rubrics at his funeral. The chanting by the full church was remarkable and indelible in the memories of those present.)

Memory Eternal!

[biro]

The dead are commemorated each Sunday, not only in individual panakhydas, but during the Proskomedia, and the names are read at the Altar table following the reading of the names of the living.

That's how we do it, in my Ukrainian parish.

We do pretty much the same thing at my Greek parish.

[Mor Ephrem]

No Trisagion services or Panikhidas and no special ektenia (after the Gospel Reading, with censing) for the departed on Sundays. That ought to be the rule, theoretically. As far as general commemorations (living & the dead at Proskomedia, for instance) and funerals are concerned, I think they are permitted.

I'm not surprised by any of this except for the allowance of funerals on Sunday.  Why no Trisagion on Sunday when you can have a funeral? 

In practice, this rule is bent a lot, especially since for some people it seems hard to make it to church unless it's Sunday. Saturday is the day when the departed ought to be properly commemorated. 

It is the same for us. 

After the 40 day, and 1 year, the Soul Saturdays should be the norm for memorials, but we have many who still want the memorials on Sunday when everyone can see that they love and remember their departed.

[Shanghaiski]

I think it would be lovely if more parishes had regular Saturday liturgies, as well as Sunday liturgies.

[scamandrius]

I think it would be lovely if more parishes had regular Saturday liturgies, as well as Sunday liturgies.

It would be, but it's not going to happen.  Saturday is now college football day.

[Justin Kissel]

I think it would be lovely if more parishes had regular Saturday liturgies, as well as Sunday liturgies.

It would be, but it's not going to happen.  Saturday is now college football day.

I would remark on this, but halftime is almost over and I need to get back to the game...  Johnny Football vs. John Chrysostom...

[Arachne]

In Greece there are no funerals or memorials on Sundays either. Saturday is the busiest day for memorials, throughout the daylight hours (dusk marks the onset of the wedding circuit). Funerals prefer weekday afternoons.

[Gunnarr]

In reading up on the Kollyvades Movement on OrhodoxWiki, I came across this:

"The Kollyvades movement strove for a rediscovery of Patristic theology and a liturgical life that included frequent communion. The movement came under assault by many at Mount Athos and elsewhere, attacks that became, at times, vicious and beyond what one would expect from monastics and clergy of any rankos and elsewhere."

I couldn't help but think how the same observation could be applied to us in our lives today, both online and in our parish lives.  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Kollyvades_Movement

That is something for us all to reflect and pray upon.

"While much animosity developed between the groups, the movement of the Kollyvades, as they became known, became part of an attempt to address deficiencies in spiritual life that had arisen in the Church since Byzantine times."

Yes indeed!

[Shanghaiski]

I think it would be lovely if more parishes had regular Saturday liturgies, as well as Sunday liturgies.

It would be, but it's not going to happen.  Saturday is now college football day.

I would remark on this, but halftime is almost over and I need to get back to the game...  Johnny Football vs. John Chrysostom...

It would be so cool if, at the end of the world. St. John Chrysostom returns and gets retribution.

[Basil 320]

Memorial Services and Trisagia are appended to the Sunday Divine Liturgy in the GOAA typically, though they should be conducted on Saturday's, but, I'd bet if we attempted to migrate to that practice, the faithful would slowly get away from the practice.

From where does the name "Kollyvades" derive, does anyone know?  Is it from "kolyva," the boiled wheat used for "mnymosina"-Memorial Services?  Yes, it is; I just read the Orthodox Wiki link, thanks for it. I hadn't known that.

[augustin717]

In Greece there are no funerals or memorials on Sundays either. Saturday is the busiest day for memorials, throughout the daylight hours (dusk marks the onset of the wedding circuit). Funerals prefer weekday afternoons.

don't they bury the dead on the third day after death, regardless of what weekday that is? in romania most burials happen o exactly the third day, Sundays included.

[Arachne]

In Greece there are no funerals or memorials on Sundays either. Saturday is the busiest day for memorials, throughout the daylight hours (dusk marks the onset of the wedding circuit). Funerals prefer weekday afternoons.

don't they bury the dead on the third day after death, regardless of what weekday that is? in romania most burials happen o exactly the third day, Sundays included.

No. Some are buried even on the second day, if the paperwork is dealt with swiftly enough. Most can wait several days, either for a spot in the cemetery, or being taken to their place of origin.

[ilyazhito]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem. 

[Justin Kissel]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem.  

A celibate priest would be required for that...

How many of such priests are there? I couldn't hazard a guess, but I'm sure some here would know...

[Mor Ephrem]

Do you need the daily Liturgy in order to have memorial prayers for the departed?  Could you not do that separately or somehow attached to the services of the daily office? 

[Romaios]

Do you need the daily Liturgy in order to have memorial prayers for the departed?  Could you not do that separately or somehow attached to the services of the daily office? 

A Trisagion can be done independently of DL or any other service.

There is also the 40 Liturgies (Rom. "sărindar" < Gk. σαραντάρι) custom. These should be celebrated successively, if possible.

Alexandros Papadiamantis about St. Nicholas Planas:

Among the present-day priests in the cities and villages, there are still many who are virtuous and good. They are village-types, beneficent, respected, and venerable. Even though they may expound words, they know another manner of teaching the flock. I know of a priest in Athens. He is the most humble of priests and the most simple of men. For any divine service, if you give him one drachma, half a drachma, or one tenth, he takes it. If you do not give him anything, he does not ask. For three drachmas he does an all-night service: Compline, Vespers, Matins, Hours, and Liturgy, the whole thing lasting nine hours. If you give him only two drachmas, he does not complain. Every list bearing the names of the dead to be commemorated, when once given to him, he keeps always. For two and three years he continues to commemorate the names. At every Prothesis he commemorates two or three thousand names. He never becomes weary. His Prothesis lasts two hours. The Liturgy another two. After the dismissal of the Liturgy, he distributes to all present whatever pieces of prosphora or antidoron he has in the sanctuary. He keeps practically nothing.

Source

[Arachne]

Do you need the daily Liturgy in order to have memorial prayers for the departed?  Could you not do that separately or somehow attached to the services of the daily office? 

Some memorial prayers are included towards the end of the Midnight Office. I think that, as collective prayer, it is done only in monasteries, but I have a prayer book that recommends the MO as part of the private morning prayer. I like it and do my best to pray it most days.

[arimethea]

Do you need the daily Liturgy in order to have memorial prayers for the departed?  Could you not do that separately or somehow attached to the services of the daily office? 

A Trisagion can be done independently of DL or any other service.

There is also the 40 Liturgies (Rom. "sărindar" < Gk. σαραντάρι) custom. These should be celebrated successively, if possible.

Alexandros Papadiamantis about St. Nicholas Planas:

Among the present-day priests in the cities and villages, there are still many who are virtuous and good. They are village-types, beneficent, respected, and venerable. Even though they may expound words, they know another manner of teaching the flock. I know of a priest in Athens. He is the most humble of priests and the most simple of men. For any divine service, if you give him one drachma, half a drachma, or one tenth, he takes it. If you do not give him anything, he does not ask. For three drachmas he does an all-night service: Compline, Vespers, Matins, Hours, and Liturgy, the whole thing lasting nine hours. If you give him only two drachmas, he does not complain. Every list bearing the names of the dead to be commemorated, when once given to him, he keeps always. For two and three years he continues to commemorate the names. At every Prothesis he commemorates two or three thousand names. He never becomes weary. His Prothesis lasts two hours. The Liturgy another two. After the dismissal of the Liturgy, he distributes to all present whatever pieces of prosphora or antidoron he has in the sanctuary. He keeps practically nothing.

Source

There is a difference between remembering the departed at the proskomedia (this is done at EVERY Liturgy) and serving a memorial or trisagion service.

[Basil 320]

Likewise, within every Liturgy, those who have passed from this life are also commemorated during the mystically read prayer following the Consecration, after "Especially for our most holy, pure most blessed..."

[mike]

Likewise, within every Liturgy, those who have passed from this life are also commemorated during the mystically read prayer following the Consecration, after "Especially for our most holy, pure most blessed..."

My priest reads it aloud.

[Romaios]

Likewise, within every Liturgy, those who have passed from this life are also commemorated during the mystically read prayer following the Consecration, after "Especially for our most holy, pure most blessed..."

That's usually VIPs or people the priest forgot/didn't get to mention earlier. When the deacon says Kai panton kai pason, all commemorations ought to be finished.

[LBK]

.

[mike]

.

I thought he meant that:

Instead, may we find mercy and grace with all the saints who through the
ages have been well-pleasing to Thee: ancestors, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers,
evangelists, martyrs, confessors, teachers, and every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

not

Remember all those who have fallen asleep before us in the hope of resurrection to eternal life,
especially ___; grant them rest in forgiveness of soul, O our God, in a place where there is no sighing or
sorrow, but where the light of Thy countenance shines on them

[Orthodox11]

We have become a Sunday only church for many people.

That really is what was so important about the Kollyvades movement, that church is something for everyday not only Sundays. Sunday only churches eventually produce Sunday only Christians. Their insistence on frequent Communion (with adequate preparation) attests to their wider concern.

[Gunnarr]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem.  

A celibate priest would be required for that...

How many of such priests are there? I couldn't hazard a guess, but I'm sure some here would know...

I wonder where this priest shortage is coming from for the greek american

are they too strict for priests? taking only seminarians?

I always assumed those huge churches always had every day liturgies, isn't it supposed to be like that?

[Arachne]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem.  

A celibate priest would be required for that...

How many of such priests are there? I couldn't hazard a guess, but I'm sure some here would know...

I wonder where this priest shortage is coming from for the greek american

are they too strict for priests? taking only seminarians?

I always assumed those huge churches always had every day liturgies, isn't it supposed to be like that?

There is no shortage of married priests.

[Gunnarr]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem.  

A celibate priest would be required for that...

How many of such priests are there? I couldn't hazard a guess, but I'm sure some here would know...

I wonder where this priest shortage is coming from for the greek american

are they too strict for priests? taking only seminarians?

I always assumed those huge churches always had every day liturgies, isn't it supposed to be like that?

There is no shortage of married priests.

oh

well, isn't there quite a few monasteries now? can't they take some from them?

[LBK]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem.  

A celibate priest would be required for that...

How many of such priests are there? I couldn't hazard a guess, but I'm sure some here would know...

I wonder where this priest shortage is coming from for the greek american

are they too strict for priests? taking only seminarians?

I always assumed those huge churches always had every day liturgies, isn't it supposed to be like that?

There is no shortage of married priests.

oh

well, isn't there quite a few monasteries now? can't they take some from them?

Priest-monks serve in monasteries and convents, and are only assigned to parish churches if there are no married priests available.

[Romaios]

Priest-monks serve in monasteries and convents, and are only assigned to parish churches if there are no married priests available.

Often the case in Greece, I've heard. Maybe they do have a shortage of married priests over there? I know some Romanian seminarians who became (married) priests in Greece.   

[podkarpatska]

Priest-monks serve in monasteries and convents, and are only assigned to parish churches if there are no married priests available.

Often the case in Greece, I've heard. Maybe they do have a shortage of married priests over there? I know some Romanian seminarians who became (married) priests in Greece.   

The Greek parish here in upstate NY had an ethnic Romanian priest, married to a Ukrainian who served previously in Greece. He was a nice enough fellow and a full time priest, BUT... there is something he wasn't. Now they have a weekend priest who is a medical professional from about an hour out of town. So if you're Greek here and you need a priest you get a Rusyn or Ukrainian one Monday - Friday....and if you die, you stay on ice until Saturday.

[Romaios]

The Greek parish here in upstate NY had an ethnic Romanian priest, married to a Ukrainian who served previously in Greece. He was a nice enough fellow and a full time priest, BUT... there is something he wasn't.

Greek? 

So if you're Greek here and you need a priest you get a Rusyn or Ukrainian one Monday - Friday....and if you die, you stay on ice until Saturday.

 

[Gunnarr]

Why not try to restore the daily liturgy to cathedrals and medium-sized parish churches in larger cities (Washington,D.C., Boston, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal,etc.) That would allow memorials to be prayed on days other than Sunday. If there are two priests at the very least, then daily liturgy would be less of a logistical problem.  

A celibate priest would be required for that...

How many of such priests are there? I couldn't hazard a guess, but I'm sure some here would know...

I wonder where this priest shortage is coming from for the greek american

are they too strict for priests? taking only seminarians?

I always assumed those huge churches always had every day liturgies, isn't it supposed to be like that?

There is no shortage of married priests.

oh

well, isn't there quite a few monasteries now? can't they take some from them?

Priest-monks serve in monasteries and convents, and are only assigned to parish churches if there are no married priests available.

Well, it was just said there is a shortage of priests. So, no married priests available for places? or is the shortage of priests not as bad as it is said?

[Basil 320]

I haven't heard of a shortage of priests in Greece, but I'm not all that connected to Greek Church circles.  I would think, given economic conditions over there currently, there would be an abundance of seminarians.

[Gunnarr]

sorry, i meant to be talking about a supposed shortage of priests in america greek orthodox archdiocese

(although, I have found this apparently there is at least a shortage in border provinces? or villages with mostly old people)

http://www.agioritikovima.gr/mitropoleis/25266-ena-megalo-prob