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Author Topic: "The Day They Began Killing Christians"  (Read 3537 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 05, 2005, 11:00:58 PM »

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2005/02/day-they-began-killing-christians.html
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2005, 11:20:36 PM »

Holy Metropolitan Vladimir, Pray for us.


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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2005, 04:29:34 PM »

This reminds me of a question my little sister asked me after going to Church with me one Sunday. She asked me why some people look so serious and even mad during the Divine Liturgy. I told her that they are listening with fear and trembling to the what is happening inside as well as outside. But I also reminded her that the Church has seen innumberable martyrs and that they first Christians would meet at the graves of martyred Christians. I explained that we are called to have joy but the quiet sublime Paschal Joy includes a constant seriousness in which we remember that to have the True Faith is to be willing to die and be tortured for it. Basically I take Joy knowing that St.Vladimir gave his blood and now intercedes for us before our Lord Jesus Christ as do all martyrs but I also feel sad that humanity is so corrupt and I am troubled because I know that I am not good and could just as easily betray my Lord as did the killers in the story.
This account also reminds me that we are not so far from such things happening here. America is a largely Protestant/Atheist/Agnostic nation which, I don't think, would have qualms with murdering Orthodox Christians. Recently our nation did commit itself to the wanton murder of Orthodox Christians in Serbia, many innocent of any wrongdoing or collaboration with evil doers. We are not as far off from the Soviet Union as many think.
Also I would like to say that I hope Holy Russia will be restored soon.

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 Pray for to God for us.
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2005, 06:20:42 PM »

This account also reminds me that we are not so far from such things happening here. America is a largely Protestant/Atheist/Agnostic nation which, I don't think, would have qualms with murdering Orthodox Christians. Recently our nation did commit itself to the wanton murder of Orthodox Christians in Serbia, many innocent of any wrongdoing or collaboration with evil doers. We are not as far off from the Soviet Union as many think.

What th' ...?? I'm sorry, but that is so over the top! America may have many problems, God help her, but launching pogroms against Orthodox ain't one of them.
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2005, 06:23:10 PM »

Yea, the American people I think are generally against the killing of any innocent people, except of course if they are unborn...but we won't go there...
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2005, 06:27:13 PM »

What Sabbas mentioned is matter of historical fact.  If it wasn't for the American effort in the balkans the Serbian population of Kosovo would not be under constant threat from the Albanian Muslims.  The sad thing is the vast majority of Americans are utterly ignorant of it. 
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2005, 06:34:46 PM »



What th' ...??  I'm sorry, but that is so over the top!  America may have many problems, God help her, but launching pogroms against Orthodox ain't one of them. 

Sabbas is right.
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2005, 07:13:48 PM »

The sad thing is the vast majority of Americans are utterly ignorant of it.
Agreed. I'm one of the ignorant ones.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2005, 07:43:02 PM »

[What th' ...?? I'm sorry, but that is so over the top! America may have many problems, God help her, but launching pogroms against Orthodox ain't one of them.]

There are many ways of launching a pogrom.  This has all been done since the so called end of the war in Kosovo.  Where are the Clintons and Madeline Albright now?  Where is NATO while this continues to go on?  Why is there still no out cry in the American news media while this pogrom continues with both the knowledge and sanction of the U.S.??
   
   
http://www.kosovo.com/destruction.html

http://www.kosovo.com/ruins.html
   
   
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2005, 08:31:39 PM »

What got me riled up was the (perceived, by me at least) implication that the US Govt. would be ok with killing Orthodox because they're Orthodox.  Sorry if I misunderstood. 


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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2005, 08:39:20 PM »

See, though, I agree that what BJohnD saw was an understandable interpretation of Sabbas' words; I got upset over them, too.  ISTM that Sabbas was not saying that the Serbs were being persecuted because, well, the US was preserving it's own interests (whatever those are), but that the Serbs were being persecuted because they were Orthodox, and that this somehow could be construed as a danger to us Orthodox here in America.

Perhaps it was just poorly worded.  I hope so.
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2005, 10:46:13 PM »

I cried the day they put NATO insignia's on our american fighter jets and bombed the hell out of serbia for no reason. Did we see the blown out bridges over the danube and other destruction along with thousands of dead serbians killed in the newspapers or TV? Nope, it was a total white wash to say the least and I'm still trying to figure out why we went in there when all the serbians were doing were protecting themselves from drug smugling/dealing violent islamo facist that were pushing the serbs out of kosovo. Yes, the same islamo facist albanians that did dirty work for Hitler back in WWII is who we sided with, an absolute disgrace to say the least.
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2005, 11:41:53 PM »

[What got me riled up was the (perceived, by me at least) implication that the US Govt. would be ok with killing Orthodox because they're Orthodox.  Sorry if I misunderstood. ]

The U.S. was willing to stop the bombing during the Moslem Holy days but refused to do so for Orthodox Pascha (Easter).  Instead we painted 'Happy Easter' on the bombs that were dropped on the Orthodox during the holiest of holidays.

How much more prejudicial can you get?

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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2005, 12:09:49 AM »

I don't think any of us know the real motives as to why the US Government got involved in the Balkans.  I have read though that it was at the quiet urging of Saudi government to protect their "muslim brothers."  But both the Clinton Administration that began the campaign and the Bush Administration that continues it fully support it.  While this may not have been against the Serbs because they were Orthodox.... there will come a time when our own government WILL imprison us and kill us because we are Orthdodox.   
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2005, 01:56:34 AM »

Quote
The U.S. was willing to stop the bombing during the Moslem Holy days but refused to do so for Orthodox Pascha (Easter).  Instead we painted 'Happy Easter' on the bombs that were dropped on the Orthodox during the holiest of holidays.

How much more prejudicial can you get?

Ok, that just makes me hella pi**ed!  :flame:
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2005, 11:54:38 AM »

Let me state that upon re-reading my words they do sound a little over-the-top. But seriously can any of you deny the possibility in say ten or twenty years that U.S. will murder the Orthodox? It is not so hard to rally a population of Atheistic, scared, and angry people against the Church. I think the story of New Hieromartyr Vladimir and the story of the Bolshevik Revolution and Russian Civil War prove that, not to mention the 'champions of reason' who made the French Revolution who allowed the Cathedral of Notre Dame to be defiled in a way appaling to any sensitive person. Yeah things do look great, to an extent, now for American govt. But don't fool yourself into thinking that it could never fall apart or that we could never be branded the backwards enemies of the State.
Thanks to all those who have commented on the despicable actions taken by the Anerican govt. against our Orthodox brothers and sisters in the former Yugoslavia.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2005, 05:36:19 PM »


 I certainly do not think that the situation of Russia/Soviet Union in the Revolutionary period or France during 1789-93 are in any way analogous to the US of the early 21st Century and no, I don't see a massacre of Christians happening in our democratic society. 
 Also, America is not athestic.  In all polls of American's religious beliefs, there is always a strong majority of those who believe in God (though not Orthodox) There is a seperation of Church and State , yes and IMHO, that benefits both Church and State.  So, with BJohn, I agree this is over-the-top.

 Also, I find it sometimes frightening in listening to some Serbs (not a majority) when they will rail against what happened in Kosovo (with reason) but will not look and examine what some Serbs did do in Bosnia and Kosovo in sometimes being the persecutors.  No nation is only a victim.
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2005, 05:46:07 PM »

No nation is only a victim.

Except for the Serbs, and Greeks.
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2005, 06:54:37 PM »

Quote
I certainly do not think that the situation of Russia/Soviet Union in the Revolutionary period or France during 1789-93 are in any way analogous to the US of the early 21st Century and no, I don't see a massacre of Christians happening in our democratic society.

I agree that now things are not analogous to those time periods, which is why I said perhaps ten to twenty years from now
Quote
But seriously can any of you deny the possibility in say ten or twenty years that U.S. will murder the Orthodox?
Please consider the possibility and the growing feeling of division in America. Not to mention the extreme decadence in which we live.

Quote
Also, America is not athestic. In all polls of American's religious beliefs, there is always a strong majority of those who believe in God (though not Orthodox) There is a seperation of Church and State , yes and IMHO, that benefits both Church and State. So, with BJohn, I agree this is over-the-top.

Perhaps our idea of what Atheistic means are different. I live in rural America where everybody says they believe in God and 'Jeezuz,' but does this really mean anything? Yes, for about five percent of the people who are usually old and attend church out of habit. Most of the people who are serious about spirituality at all are more agnostic than anything. Just try talking about the Bible to some of these 'religious' people. You'll see that most of them can't remember the ten commandments or who John the Baptist was!

But what do I mean by Atheistic? We live in a time when people don't really want God. That is they don't want the True God of Christianity who will judge them and keep them from doing what they want. To me that is Atheistic. We live in a time when it's okay to kill an unwanted child for financial reasons. We live in a time when young boys see pornography on the internet that was not too long ago illegal. We live in a time when people are filled with a skepticism of any Absolute Truth and are more interested in 'feeling good for yourself' and 'knowing what's right for you.' Perhaps this is just the preparation of the canvas that will depict an age more gruesome and deceptive than any before?

Please do not write me off!

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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2005, 10:16:30 PM »

Quote
Please consider the possibility and the growing feeling of division in America. Not to mention the extreme decadence in which we live.
.

Yes we are. We need some more Voltaire's for our time Grin.. I'll just sit back and watch the destruction from a distance because I've been in too many heated debates caring and trying to tell people what they are doing is wrong and there is a better way. Anyway, appereantly christianity is becoming more obsolete and the new religion of secularism/acedemia/big government is taking a hold on the new generation of sheep.
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2005, 10:38:24 AM »

Here is another biography of St.Vladimir:

New Hieromartyr Vladimir, Metropolitan of Kiev
25 January/7 February
"I fear no one and nothing.
I am ready to give up my life at any time for the
Church of Christ rather than to give Her enemies
an opportunity to mock Her."


Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev

The first Russian new martyr of hierarchichal rank was the Very Most-Reverend Vladimir, who in the world had been Basil Nikiforovitch Bogoyavlensky. He was born on January 2, 1848 into the family of a priest in Little Morshanka, Morshansk district, Tambov province. He was educated at the Tambov seminary, and then at the Kiev Theological Academy. Upon graduation in 1874, he was first appointed a teacher of homiletics at his old seminary. In 1888, he discontinued his work at the seminary, and was ordained to the priesthood, for service at the Holy Protection Cathedral Church in the city of Kozlov, Tambov Province, where he carried out pastoral duties, not limited only to his parish, but also fulfilling the duties of deputy at diocesan meetings and as the dean of the churches in Kozlov. A severe illness brought on the death of his matushka, and his family sorrow woke the young priest into beginning a new path of service to the Church and to the people. In February 1886, at the Tambov Kazan cathedral, he was tonsured a monk, and was elevated to the rank of archimandrite. On May 21, 1889, archimandrite Vladimir was elevated to the kathedra as bishop of Starorussk. In 1892, he became exarch to Georgia, and a member of the Holy Synod. In 1898 he became metropolitan of Moscow, in 1912 metropolitan of Petrograd, and in 1915, metropolitan of Kiev.

Kozlov, Novgorod, Samara, Georgia, Moscow, Petrograd, Kiev: Such were the successive steps along Metropolitan Vladimir’s arduous path of service. At every step, Metropolitan Vladimir kept uppermost the need to keep the people within the protection of the Church, to preserve them from sectarian influences and from socialist propaganda, to liberate them from the awful and age-old yoke of drunkenness, and to give them the light of true Christian learning.

Metropolitan Vladimir used to say to the students at the Moscow seminary,
Quote
“Perhaps you would say that in our time the bread of the Church has become so stale that it sometimes is like unto the dry crust that even young teeth cannot chew. But one must think first of all not about what comes from the people, but about what we ourselves can do for the people. Our people are poor, their life is rent by the awful yoke of drunkenness. And we must first of all apply all our efforts to raising up the people, to sobering them up, to bringing into their midst the light of true Christian teaching.

The family and the school, the factory and business - all of these and other branches of societal and government life should absorb into themselves, as the basic dominant tenet of their activity, the spirit of Christ’s teaching through the Church, its pastors, and the faithful people. In his spiritual struggle in furtherance of that goal, Vladika Vladimir spared neither his strength nor his health. He was constantly on guard,ready for spiritual struggle and for battle as a faithful warrior of Christ. He strove to raise the educational level of pastors and other clergy; he established many cadres of missionaries to the people, organized theological classes for women, inspired strugglers for abstinence in their work, arranged courses to prepare pastors for service in distant Siberia, waged war against the approaching disease of atheistic socialism, a disease whose danger to Russia was always clear to him. In all of these paths of action, he maintained himself as a pastor of peace and love, unshakable steadfastness, absolute honesty, and eternal dedication to Christ and His Church.

On the night of January 26, 1918, Bolshevik forces entered the Kiev Caves Lavra. Shortly thereafter, some anonymous persons, having found out that Metropolitan Vladimir was in charge of the Lavra, went to his quarters. After completing a search and taking away 100 rubles - for he had no more - they proceeded to take him to the commandant for interrogation. On the way, they decided to be rid of him, and carried out their mad idea. The body of the hiero-martyr was found, pierced by two fatal bullet wounds and three stab wounds. During that most difficult of times in our history, and at the hands of criminals, the thread of life of this holy hierarch who had so labored in the vineyard of the Russian Orthodox Church, was severed. His lifelong spiritual struggle was crowned with the crown of martyrdom. The Church piously and with thanksgiving keeps the prayerful memory of the archpastor, who in his lofty service gave himself unstintingly to service to the faithful, courageously leading them out of the age-old sickness of drunkenness, away from their unhealthy leanings towards schism and sectarianism, away from the ruinous socialist morass, and to the constant light of the Resurrection of Christ.

Excerpted from -¡Church News,
No. 5, 7/20 February, 1918


Quote
But one must think first of all not about what comes from the people, but about what we ourselves can do for the people.

These are good words to remember. In spite fo the times we live in we can always to take joy in helping people and growing in the Life of the Church, the LIfe in Christ. Often troubled times are better for this growth than good times.
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2005, 02:30:19 PM »

Also, I find it sometimes frightening in listening to some Serbs (not a majority) when they will rail against what happened in Kosovo (with reason) but will not look and examine what some Serbs did do in Bosnia and Kosovo in sometimes being the persecutors.  No nation is only a victim.

Okay, I'm still relatively new to these discussion boards and I don't want to get into an entirely "political discussion" but sometimes the realms of religion and politics can't help but intersect.  The situation from the former Yugoslavia is a good example (specifically Kosovo).

I must say, I find the above quote personally insulting, for a variety of reasons.  First, I find it particulary disheartening that a brother or sister from the Orthodox nation would criticize an entire people (albeit "not a majority"), for the actions of a few Godless rogues. 

First and foremost, bripat22, your comment has no place, because it does not take into context the historical plight of Serbs in the region for the last 650 years (Bulgarians and Greeks share much of that historical context).  Furthermore, many of "us" Serbs, have had multiple family members murdered at the hands of fundamentalist Islamic extremists.  So pardon me if I take such a comment personally and feel victimized to a degree.

Also, I think you should do your research a bit better, especially vis a vis Kosovo.  I direct you here... http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0902-02.htm 

This article first appeared in the Globe and Mail in Toronto. 

Next, I have been very lucky to have a first hand opportunity to work on the defense of many Serbs accused of war crimes at the Hague. (Many Serbian and Non-Serbian attorneys from all over the world have spent countless hours devoted to fair trials and truth in the proceedings). I have spent thousands of hours reviewing countless documents of "so called" mass murders perpetrated by the "evil Serbs".  I can assure you, that your knowledge of the specific acts alleged is not exhaustive.

That isn't to say there wasn't any wrong doing on behalf of individual Serbs, but why would you choose to voice your opinion about how "frightening" our "railing" is against Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia, in an Orthodox Christian forum?

I am certainly not a Serbian apologist, but I certainly am a defender of my faith and the people who share it.  I pray for those who have done wrong, both Serbian and other but I assure you, you will never here me criticize one of the Orthodox constituents as "frightening".  You will here nothing but praise for my brothers and sisters in Greece, Bulgaria, Russia, Romania etc...

I have aspirations that one day all of Orthodoxy will speak with one voice, but to do that, we need to make sure everyone is on board in defense of our faith.

Your comments are particularly disturbing when contemplating the fact that 41 Orthodox Chruches were destroyed by Islamic Albanians in March of 2004, in a place called Kosovo, where us Serbs purport to be victims.  All of which was done under the watchful eye of KFOR.

I would hope you rethink your position.

If you would like to continue a political discussion about Kosovo and the appalling treatment of the Serbian minortieis, feel free to PM me. 
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2005, 08:59:20 PM »

Some of you may recall the link to some pictures of the burning churches with KFOR troops (French) looking on.  There are videos taken by the crowd of thugs on the net now. 

Patriarch Pavle never did anything except denounce the evil actions of any person killing their neighbors.  I remember a poster somewhere here posted something to the contrary.  Fortunately, there is a web site dedicated to our Patriarch's statements during the war. 

I would also like to point to another book, Neighbors at War

Some of the contributors are horrible and others helpful.  The most interesting story was something that occurred in Medjugorje.  A Croat Catholic family had created a way to make some money through the pilgrims.  They lived up in the hills.  A wealthy Croat Catholic family in the town thought these hillbillies were living higher than they deserved.  Not only did they kill or remove this other family, but they went into their own Roman Catholic cemeteries and destroyed the grave markers of the family, as if to wipe them from the face of the Earth.  So what happened when the smurfs came rolling in to town?  They explained that there was a group of troublesome Serbs up in the hills, but they had left voluntarily. 

This story is anecdotal, yes.  But from what I've read and from those who escaped from Bosnia (yes, tens of thousands of Serbs were forced from their Bosnian homes by Agim Ceku), a lot of clan revenges were carried out and blamed on the war to hide vicious murders.

Have any of you been watching or reading the transcripts of the "trials" at the ITCY?  Let me give you a taste.

This is a question from a prosecuting attorney, Mr. Geoffrey Nice (who really isn't) and Mr. James Jatras, witness for the defense in the Milosevic trial.


23 Q. And of course, it's very important, isn't it, Mr. Jatras, that any

24 particular interests that a witness such as you have are properly

25 presented to the Tribunal?


Page 32694

1 A. Certainly.

2 Q. So if we can just look at a couple of matters of detail. A bit

3 more about your father, please. He is, I think, by origins, an American,

4 full American, by birth, or what?

5 A. Are you trying to qualify me in ethnic terms?

6 Q. Yes, that's right.

7 A. I was born in the United States, and my parents were born in the

8 United States.

9 Q. Yes. Going back?

10 A. My grandparents were born in Greece.

11 Q. And your parents are still, I think, of the Greek Orthodox faith?

12 A. Yes, as am I.

13 Q. As are you. And that faith, to some degree, informs your

14 judgement, doesn't it?

15 A. I would say it does, yes.

16 Q. Before we move on to see whether it does and to what extent it

17 does, tell us this: There are, of course, Serb communities in America,

18 aren't there?

19 A. There are.

20 Q. And you mix with them, don't you?

I'll skip down to some more questions regarding Mr. Nice's "whether it does and to what extent it does" questions.

Mr. Nice, reading from an article Mr. Jatras had written for an Orthodox Journal printed in America in English begins to ask about why he writes certain opinions about the validity of theological claims of Islam.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. This is part of your approach to the divisions or separateness of

11 religious in our world?

12 A. I'm making a theological observation regarding the assertion,

13 which I believe is unfounded that Islam shares a common origin with

14 Christianity and Judaism but rather is an outgrowth of indigenous

15 polytheism on the Arabian peninsula.

16 Q. Let's look at the foot of the page, indeed, to see how you

17 depicted it on this paper. Last two lines: "In short, Islam is a

18 self-evident outgrowth not of the old and new covenants but of the

19 darkness of heathen Araby. Beside ludicrous historical suggestions to the

20 contrary (such as that the Ka'bah was built by Abraham, which would have

21 been news to him), Muslim apologists have strained to find in the Bible

22 evidence that a new prophet would arise after Jesus, seeing Muhammad in

23 obvious prophecies of the Holy Spirit," and so on.

24 And if we go to the next paragraph, beginning, "Saint Gregory's,"

25 this: "...answer is no less devastating to Islam's fraudulent


Page 32700

1 self-depiction as a pacific creed. Islam was born in violence, from

2 Muhammad's sanction of raids of pillage and plunder (starting with attacks

3 against his own Quraysh tribe, which initially rejected his revelation) to

4 his savage execution of hundreds of men on the Qurayzah clan (which

5 professed Judaism) and the enslavement and enforced concubinage of their

6 women and children."

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause to let the

8 interpreters catch up, thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you're again being asked by the

10 interpreters to slow down.

11 MR. NICE: Apologies.

12 Q. And if we look down to the next paragraph and to the middle of it,

13 we see these views of yours expressed in the form of a rhetorical

14 question --

15 A. Which page are we on, sir?

16 Q. Page 4 of 8, the paragraph in the middle headed: "In the

17 application of Jihad." You say: "The parallels are unavoidable to the

18 similarly Manichaean communist concepts of the socialist camp as the zone

19 of peace and the capitalist camp as the zone of war. I will leave it to

20 the specialists to calculate which Islam or communism can claim the

21 greater achievement as gigantic Christian-killing machines."

22 I must ask you, Mr. Jatras, whether it has ever occurred to you

23 that expressing views in such a way is irresponsible.

24 A. Would you like me to supply the documentation for my assertions?

25 Q. I'm asking you whether you -- it's a simple question. Do you take


Page 32701

1 the view that expressing opinions in this way is responsible?

2 A. I think it is responsible to give testament to something that is

3 historically accurate. There is a reason why there are no indigenous

4 Christians in north Africa west of Egypt, there is a reason why there are

5 longer indigenous Christians in Anatolia. They did not disappear because

6 of earthquake.

7 Q. If I ask you the question of responsibility, you think it's a good

8 idea to draw these facts, if they are facts, and I'm not here to debate

9 them, in this way?

10 A. I think facts are their own justification, whatever they may say,

11 however unpleasant they may be. I would note that what may seem shocking

12 here - and perhaps I think you would suggest somehow not responsible - are

13 commonplace on many expressions of Islamist ideology, stating them in

14 terms not too different than I have stated them here except in a positive

15 and proud way.



The transcript in full is here.  http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/040909IT.htm


Tell me that persecution of Orthodox Christians isn't heading west.

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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2005, 11:47:33 PM »

Okay I will admit something else to you. I have recently been reading Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town 1922-1945
by William Allen
 http://books.lukasz.h4c.pl/k2309

This book has also led me to the conclusion that State sanctioned murder of Orthodox Christians in America is conceivable in ten to twenty years. Anyway I think I may have led this discussion away from the original intent of Bogoliubtsy. That is to give honor to the Russian New Martyrs and look at their individual stories. I hope all of us have looked here:
http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/martyrs/nmruss.html Good site!

But I am glad to hear people talking about the similar situation of the persecution of the Orthodox in Serbia. I found this particular map interesting http://www.kosovo.com/ethnmap_yu.jpg

This is helpful: http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/serbianmartyrs.htm
« Last Edit: February 10, 2005, 11:56:05 PM by Sabbas » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2005, 09:43:26 AM »

But I am glad to hear people talking about the similar situation of the persecution of the Orthodox in Serbia. I found this particular map interesting http://www.kosovo.com/ethnmap_yu.jpg

This is helpful: http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/serbianmartyrs.htm

Sorry if I further strayed the disucssion.  Your links are excellent and appreciated.  The above quoted article is wonderful and maybe bripat22 will read it and reconsider.

Thank you and God Bless.
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