Author Topic: Is the Talmud authoritative?  (Read 5258 times)

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Offline Theophilos78

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Is the Talmud authoritative?
« on: August 30, 2013, 05:44:47 PM »
In Christianity all churches but Reformed ones derive their doctrines from both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I wonder if the endorsement of Sacred Tradition is valid for the texts of Judaism. Do we rely on the Talmud in addition to the Tanakh or are we defenders of Sola Scriptura when the doctrines/teachings of Judaism are in view? Do we make use of some commentaries in the Talmud to explain some verses of the Old Testament?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 05:48:28 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Offline WPM

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 06:16:18 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 06:28:28 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I can only think of one Jewish sect for which it isn't - the Karaites. Orthodox Jews view it as Torah she be 'al pe, i.e. the codification of "oral Torah".

It might have some authority over Messianic Christians, but none whatsoever among Orthodox, Catholic or mainstream Protestant ones.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 06:28:52 PM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 06:33:14 PM »
Authoritative in what sense?
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Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 06:38:21 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I can only think of one Jewish sect for which it isn't - the Karaites. Orthodox Jews view it as Torah she be 'al pe, i.e. the codification of "oral Torah".

It might have some authority over Messianic Christians, but none whatsoever among Orthodox, Catholic or mainstream Protestant ones.
Some Dispensationalists who believe in a "dual-covenant" might use it as if it were the Old Testament.

I've also noticed a lot of the people converting to Messianic Judaism in the last five years claim to be "Messianic Karaites." Which would make the fringe Dispensationalists and the mainstream Messianic Jews the only Christ-believing sects to have a place for the Talmud.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 06:52:00 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I mean Christians! Do we use the Talmud to interpret the Torah or not?
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 06:52:45 PM »
Authoritative in what sense?

Authoritative in the sense that its teachings are reliable and true.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 06:54:52 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I mean Christians! Do we use the Talmud to interpret the Torah or not?

Short answer, a definite no.

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 06:56:58 PM »
Do we rely on the Talmud in addition to the Tanakh or are we defenders of Sola Scriptura when the doctrines/teachings of Judaism are in view?

Neither. We have our tradition of interpreting and commenting on the Old Testament.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2013, 06:57:49 PM »
Authoritative in what sense?

Authoritative in the sense that its teachings are reliable and true.

Only accidentally.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2013, 07:00:35 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I mean Christians! Do we use the Talmud to interpret the Torah or not?

Short answer, a definite no.

Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2013, 07:03:37 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I mean Christians! Do we use the Talmud to interpret the Torah or not?

Short answer, a definite no.

Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!
One must remember that the Talmud was written by those who rejected the NT's interpretation of the OT.

Not authoritative, but useful.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2013, 07:05:27 PM »
Do we rely on the Talmud in addition to the Tanakh or are we defenders of Sola Scriptura when the doctrines/teachings of Judaism are in view?

Neither. We have our tradition of interpreting and commenting on the Old Testament.
Yes. We don't have a dog in the fight of defending the doctrines/teachings of Judaism, which are not the doctrines/teachings of the OT, but posterior to it (and the NT).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2013, 07:05:45 PM »

One must remember that the Talmud was written by those who rejected the NT's interpretation of the OT.

Not authoritative, but useful.
So can we Christians consider the Talmud similar to the non-canonical Gospels of Nativity?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2013, 07:08:06 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Offline WPM

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2013, 07:12:11 PM »
For some sects of Judaism, yes.

I mean Christians! Do we use the Talmud to interpret the Torah or not?

I'm a Christian and I've never used the Talmud for anything.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2013, 07:13:13 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 07:15:00 PM »

One must remember that the Talmud was written by those who rejected the NT's interpretation of the OT.

Not authoritative, but useful.
So can we Christians consider the Talmud similar to the non-canonical Gospels of Nativity?
something like that.

To give an example, the Talmud claims that the laying of hands, to transmit authority, was transmitted from the 70 elders and Moses, the the Great Assembly of 120 (the sages between the ending of Prophecy-according to the Talmud-and the destruction of the Temple) to the rabbis.  Whether that is true or not is of no real interest to us nor authoritative as truth, but it is useful to show that the laying of of hands, as practiced by the Apostles, was an institution in the time of Christ.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 07:15:42 PM »

One must remember that the Talmud was written by those who rejected the NT's interpretation of the OT.

Not authoritative, but useful.
So can we Christians consider the Talmud similar to the non-canonical Gospels of Nativity?

No Gospel in the Talmud: the Messiah has not come as far as they are concerned. Well, Rabbi Akiva thought he was Bar Kosiba, but that's a different story.

I'd much rather compare it to the Qu'ran...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 07:18:52 PM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 07:16:14 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2013, 07:18:04 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?

To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2013, 07:19:36 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?

To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)
That might be a little dangerous.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2013, 07:21:23 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?

To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)
That might be a little dangerous.

How so? This is the only answer given in the Talmud and it makes perfect sense!
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2013, 07:27:22 PM »
To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)

It has an answer for almost every imaginable question pertaining to OT minutiae...

Only there is no christological/messianic core to its interpretations. You can sometimes read Christ into them, but any Talmudic scholar worth his salt would smile condescendingly.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2013, 07:29:46 PM »
To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)

It has an answer for almost every imaginable question pertaining to OT minutiae...

Only there is no christological/messianic core to its interpretations. You can sometimes read Christ into them, but any Talmudic scholar worth his salt would smile condescendingly.

So is it wrong to consider those answers true or reliable as long as we are looking for answers to such questions related to the Old Testament only?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2013, 07:32:38 PM »
How much of the Talmud pre-dates Christ?  My understanding was that it's almost entirely post-Christian and perhaps in its teachings and Scriptural interpretations "anti-" Christian.  Why would it be authoritative for Christians?  

I'm with Isa: it may be useful, but that's about it.  I use a JPS Study Bible when reading the OT just to see how they translated it and interpreted it--not because I trust their interpretation, but for the sake of comparison, context, etc.  
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2013, 07:33:55 PM »
It has been too long since I read about Judaism, so someone remind me here... I know that there were plenty of disputes among Rabbis about proper theology/interpretation/practice (some of these disputes even coming up in questions to Jesus in the Gospels)... are these disputes retained in the Talmud (either one), or is there just recorded one standard or authoritative or agreed-upon answer?

Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2013, 07:37:39 PM »
So is it wrong to consider those answers true or reliable as long as we are looking for answers to such questions related to the Old Testament only?

It depends on what kind of "truth" you are looking for. The Truth (Christ) won't be there. It's not historical-critical exegesis either... It may give you some insight in the history of OT interpretation among the Jews. That could be valuable, if you're interested - for instance - in how some of Our Lord's contemporaries interpreted the OT.  

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2013, 07:40:32 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?

To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)
That might be a little dangerous.

How so? This is the only answer given in the Talmud and it makes perfect sense!
Does it tell us something about Christ, or about Rabbinic Judaism?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 07:41:21 PM »
It has been too long since I read about Judaism, so someone remind me here... I know that there were plenty of disputes among Rabbis about proper theology/interpretation/practice (some of these disputes even coming up in questions to Jesus in the Gospels)... are these disputes retained in the Talmud (either one), or is there just recorded one standard or authoritative or agreed-upon answer?

It's the pharisaic/rabbinical strand that prevailed after the destruction of the Temple, but you seldom get two rabbis to agree on a given topic in the Talmud. Judaic exegesis is always pluralistic.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 07:43:18 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?

To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)
That might be a little dangerous.

How so? This is the only answer given in the Talmud and it makes perfect sense!
Does it tell us something about Christ, or about Rabbinic Judaism?

None. It only implicitly connects Exodus 15:20 to the days of Moses' birth. Maybe the person writing that did not mean a connection. Maybe it is me who can establish a connection since there is nothing explicit in the Talmud.  :D

It came to pass about this time that Miriam, the daughter of Amram, the sister of Aaron, prophesied and said, "A second son will be born to my father and mother, and he will deliver the Israelites from the Egyptian power." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/pol/pol09.htm

Miriam was called the Sister of Aaron because she was only Aaron's sister at that time and she prophesied Moses' birth. In Exodus 15:20 Miriam was called the Sister of Aaron and a prophetess exactly when the second part of her prophecy related to Moses (Israelites' salvation from Egyptians) was fulfilled. 
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 07:51:36 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 07:49:52 PM »
Why not? I have read some parts from the Talmud recently and can see that they do not contradict what is written in the Torah. The teachings of the Talmud actually deepen our knowledge. Now even some verses of the Torah make more sense to me in the light of the traditional teachings stated in the Talmud!

We've inherited a different/rival interpretative tradition - the Talmudic sages are the heirs of the Pharisees. While we have more in common with them than with the Sadducees (belief in the afterlife, the resurrection, angels, etc.), you only have to read the Gospels to see what separates us.  

Then let me ask you a question. In the Book of Exodus we have the following verse:

Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a hand-drum in her hand, and all the women went out after her with hand-drums and with dances. (Exodus 15:20)

Only in this verse of the Torah was Miriam called a prophetess and identified as the Sister of Aaron, rather than as the Sister of Moses or the Sister of both Moses and Aaron.

Why is that?
Why does it matter?

To serve as an example! Because the Talmud has the answer and I like the connection between the explanation in the Talmud and this Biblical verse.  ;)
That might be a little dangerous.

How so? This is the only answer given in the Talmud and it makes perfect sense!
Does it tell us something about Christ, or about Rabbinic Judaism?

None. It only implicitly connects Exodus 15:20 to the days of Moses' birth. Maybe the person writing that did not mean a connection. Maybe it is me who can establish a connection since there is nothing explicit in the Talmud.  :D
What connection does the rabbi make to Moses' birth.

Btw, there is also the issue that the text the rabbis are using does not match the LXX (it doesn't match the MT either).  Btw, that is one place where it is useful: the rabbis comment on Sirach, showing that the Jews indeed accept it before the Christians showed it as the possession of the Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 07:53:47 PM »

What connection does the rabbi make to Moses' birth.

Btw, there is also the issue that the text the rabbis are using does not match the LXX (it doesn't match the MT either).  Btw, that is one place where it is useful: the rabbis comment on Sirach, showing that the Jews indeed accept it before the Christians showed it as the possession of the Church.

Apparently, it is only quasi-Rabbi Theophilos who is making that connection!  ;D
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 08:20:11 PM »

What connection does the rabbi make to Moses' birth.

Btw, there is also the issue that the text the rabbis are using does not match the LXX (it doesn't match the MT either).  Btw, that is one place where it is useful: the rabbis comment on Sirach, showing that the Jews indeed accept it before the Christians showed it as the possession of the Church.

Apparently, it is only quasi-Rabbi Theophilos who is making that connection!  ;D

Oh vey, what's with the joke............

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 08:25:28 PM »

What connection does the rabbi make to Moses' birth.

Btw, there is also the issue that the text the rabbis are using does not match the LXX (it doesn't match the MT either).  Btw, that is one place where it is useful: the rabbis comment on Sirach, showing that the Jews indeed accept it before the Christians showed it as the possession of the Church.

Apparently, it is only quasi-Rabbi Theophilos who is making that connection!  ;D

Oh vey, what's with the joke............

Well, joke aside, I still think that the connection I establish between that teaching in the Talmud and Exodus 15:20 makes sense.
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 09:09:42 PM »
I don't think it's authoritative for Jews, let alone Christians.

But it's insightful to read about the Rabbinical understanding of the Messiah.

I read somewhere in one of the books of Sanhedrin, that the Messiah would come on the clouds of heaven (citing Daniel 7:13) if the Jewish people were worthy, and on an ass if they were not worthy (citing Zechariah?).

It's funny how they cite Daniel about the clouds of heaven, but not the "he will be given dominion, and authority and people's of all languages shall worship him." bit.

I think I understand why Christ thought they were unworthy.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 09:23:17 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2013, 09:21:10 PM »
How much of the Talmud pre-dates Christ?  My understanding was that it's almost entirely post-Christian and perhaps in its teachings and Scriptural interpretations "anti-" Christian.  Why would it be authoritative for Christians?  

I'm with Isa: it may be useful, but that's about it.  I use a JPS Study Bible when reading the OT just to see how they translated it and interpreted it--not because I trust their interpretation, but for the sake of comparison, context, etc.  

Jews claim that the oral tradition that the Talmud is based on is as old as the times of Moses. But there is no historical data to prove that. The Talmud was written down after Christ.

I use a JPS because I like learning Hebrew, I don't trust the interpretation, it's based on later Rabbinical traditions like those of Rashi and Ramban.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2013, 07:10:04 AM »
Besides, is it not true that Yeshua endorsed some traditional teachings of Judaism when He said that Moses had written about Him? (John 5:46)

What about St. Paul? He wrote:

Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary. (Galatians 3:19)


Isn't the teaching that the Law was "administered by angels" Talmudic or based on the Judaic tradition rather than on the Old Testament?
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2013, 07:20:39 AM »
Besides, is it not true that Yeshua endorsed some traditional teachings of Judaism when He said that Moses had written about Him? (John 5:46)

What about St. Paul? He wrote:

Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary. (Galatians 3:19)


Isn't the teaching that the Law was "administered by angels" Talmudic or based on the Judaic tradition rather than on the Old Testament?

Even though St. Paul may have used Judaic/rabbinical methods of exegesis (midrash, etc.), the Talmud only came to be some 400 years after him. So no, he wasn't a Talmudist... 

You might enjoy E.P. Sanders' Paul and Palestinian Judaism.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 07:39:46 AM by Romaios »

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2013, 07:28:43 AM »
I assume its like the hadith, whatever they like is authorative and whatever they dislike cannot be trusted.

May be an unfair assessment though.
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2013, 02:24:58 PM »
I assume its like the hadith, whatever they like is authorative and whatever they dislike cannot be trusted.

May be an unfair assessment though.

It is not at all like this.
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2013, 03:03:14 PM »
Besides, is it not true that Yeshua endorsed some traditional teachings of Judaism when He said that Moses had written about Him? (John 5:46)
That would be the Pentateuch.
What about St. Paul? He wrote:

Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary. (Galatians 3:19)


Isn't the teaching that the Law was "administered by angels" Talmudic or based on the Judaic tradition rather than on the Old Testament?
or based on Hebrew Tradition incorporated into the Talmud as Judaid tradition after the NT.

It is like equating the MT Tanakh to the original OT because both were (mostly) in Hebrew.  We know that the MT was not used by the Apostles, because it was not redacted until nearly a millenium after them.  So too equating the Talmud from the traditions of the Hebrews in the time of Christ, which Tradition the Talmud was derived from but not identical to.
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Offline Nicene

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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2013, 01:57:53 AM »
I assume its like the hadith, whatever they like is authorative and whatever they dislike cannot be trusted.

May be an unfair assessment though.

It is not at all like this.
Very well then.
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2013, 03:14:13 AM »
About as authoritative as my posting history, and even then, at least I can make most readers laugh.
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Re: Is the Talmud authoritative?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2013, 07:45:27 AM »
I assume its like the hadith, whatever they like is authorative and whatever they dislike cannot be trusted.

May be an unfair assessment though.

It is not at all like this.
Very well then.

Actually it's very much like this. The Talmud is the backbone of Judaism. It's more important than the Tanakh itself. The Rabbis are considered to be more knowledgeable than the prophets. And it certainly operates on similar ground as the Hadith.
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