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Author Topic: Dormition Services  (Read 1036 times) Average Rating: 0
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LizaSymonenko
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« on: August 28, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »


Greetings on the Feast Day of the Dormition of the Mother of God!!!

I have a question concerning services surrounding this Feast Day.

We usually have a Divine Liturgy...and I understand we "should" have had a Vespers the evening before.

However, I was speaking with a monk the other day, and he was telling me that he has a really long night ahead....an all-nighter, if you will, with services entering this Feast Day.

What is that all about?


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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 01:52:54 PM »

Must be a Greek thing. Never heard of that.
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 01:54:51 PM »

The Dormition is an all-night vigil rank feast, but that is not very often done any more. Unless the Theotokos is the patron of the church or monastery.
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 01:56:29 PM »


Ah, yes.  He was Greek, and yes she was the Patron of the monastery.
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 02:58:29 PM »


Ah, yes.  He was Greek, and yes she was the Patron of the monastery.

We had all night vigil last night but it was truncated to 2.5 hours. 
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 03:22:07 PM »


Really?

You're not Greek.  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 04:57:04 PM »

Happy Feast Day!
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 04:58:57 PM »


Thank You!!!! Same to you!!!
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 05:08:40 PM »


Ah, yes.  He was Greek, and yes she was the Patron of the monastery.

We had all night vigil last night but it was truncated to 2.5 hours. 

I had a vigil a fortnight ago and it lasted 1:45, like usual. Although, I attended the DL only yesterday.
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 07:25:49 PM »


...prolonging the experience?  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 06:43:27 AM »

If you had the service for the Dormition including singing the Lamnentations in front of the Plaschynitsa then the service could be reasonably long...
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 07:56:58 AM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 08:59:48 AM »

I read the all-night vigil by myself last night. Even as a reader service, it took 70 minutes.
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 09:01:27 AM »


Wow.  Impressive.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 06:33:37 PM »

All of the 12 Great Feasts (and the Dormition is one) are specified as Class I or Class II feasts. Feasts of the Lord are Class I, a All-Night Vigil is prescribed. Feasts of the Theotokos are Class II and also require an All-Night Vigil (some well-known saints, like St. Nicholas, are also a Class II feast). Some Class II feasts offer an option for Great Vespers and Matins separately or to serve a Vigil, others require a Vigil. Theotokos Great Feasts are of the latter.

My home parish always serves a Vigil for each of the 12 Great Feasts. I once attended the Vigil for Dormition at Holy Cross Monastery (ROCOR) in WVa. The service was about 4 hours. At my home parish, Vigils generally take between 1.5 to 2 hours.

Also, Arachne, our chapel served the Vigil for Dormition this year, and it also took us about an hour and a half!
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2013, 04:02:12 AM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used. The full Arabic Typikon has been translated into English and can be downloaded at almoutran.com/pdf/typikon.pdf‎ It is basically the Greek Typikon of Violakis, but has footnotes indicating the differences between it and the Typikon of St. Sabba as well as indicating modern Antiochian practice. For example the Greek typikon of the late 19th century moved the Matins Gospel from its proper place to after the 8th ode of the canon. In Antiochian usage, we chant the Matins Gospel in its traditional place.

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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2013, 09:57:36 AM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2013, 10:21:09 AM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used. The full Arabic Typikon has been translated into English and can be downloaded at almoutran.com/pdf/typikon.pdf‎ It is basically the Greek Typikon of Violakis, but has footnotes indicating the differences between it and the Typikon of St. Sabba as well as indicating modern Antiochian practice. For example the Greek typikon of the late 19th century moved the Matins Gospel from its proper place to after the 8th ode of the canon. In Antiochian usage, we chant the Matins Gospel in its traditional place.

Fr. John W. Morris
Is the Arabic version (as, in Arabic) online, Father?
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2013, 11:52:15 AM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2013, 12:07:00 PM »

Its some kind of preparation vigil where you stay up all night and say the prayers until morning.
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2013, 12:41:47 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.


 Cheesy Thanks Father. Good to know. It kind of makes me even happier that we do it.
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2013, 01:05:01 PM »

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant".

The same could be said about the Psalter of the Theotokos attributed to St. Dimitry of Rostov, which is still used by some as a private devotion around here.

As far as shlock devotions are concerned, none can compete with the patriotic Akathists to Romanian Saints. I remember having to read one (at first sight) in church for St. Andrew a couple of years back. I blushed while I read it. 
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2013, 01:22:39 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used. The full Arabic Typikon has been translated into English and can be downloaded at almoutran.com/pdf/typikon.pdf‎ It is basically the Greek Typikon of Violakis, but has footnotes indicating the differences between it and the Typikon of St. Sabba as well as indicating modern Antiochian practice. For example the Greek typikon of the late 19th century moved the Matins Gospel from its proper place to after the 8th ode of the canon. In Antiochian usage, we chant the Matins Gospel in its traditional place.

Fr. John W. Morris
Is the Arabic version (as, in Arabic) online, Father?

Not in Arabic. However the English translation is at  almoutran.com/pdf/typikon.pdf

Fr. John
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2013, 02:44:21 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

Fr. John
I've heard it referred to as the "Jerusalem Rite" before and I know of one ROCOR monastery that has celebrated it. Is it really that bad? What's the problem with it?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2013, 03:26:02 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

Fr. John
I've heard it referred to as the "Jerusalem Rite" before and I know of one ROCOR monastery that has celebrated it. Is it really that bad? What's the problem with it?

In Christ,
Andrew
It didn't originate in Constantinople. The "City" is touchy about such things, for no good reason.
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2013, 03:42:01 PM »

It didn't originate in Constantinople. The "City" is touchy about such things, for no good reason.

According to this blog entry, the practice started in Jerusalem in the 15th century.

The Athonites don't do it either.
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2013, 03:44:45 PM »

It didn't originate in Constantinople. The "City" is touchy about such things, for no good reason.

According to this blog entry, the practice started in Jerusalem in the 15th century.

The Athonites don't do it either.
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2013, 07:29:02 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

Fr. John
I've heard it referred to as the "Jerusalem Rite" before and I know of one ROCOR monastery that has celebrated it. Is it really that bad? What's the problem with it?

In Christ,
Andrew

You misunderstand me. I am making no judgments on the service itself. I merely thought that the readers of this site might find it interesting to know that it is forbidden by the Greek Typikon.

Fr. John
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2013, 09:08:15 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

Fr. John
I've heard it referred to as the "Jerusalem Rite" before and I know of one ROCOR monastery that has celebrated it. Is it really that bad? What's the problem with it?

In Christ,
Andrew

You misunderstand me. I am making no judgments on the service itself. I merely thought that the readers of this site might find it interesting to know that it is forbidden by the Greek Typikon.

Fr. John
My apologies, Father! That is interesting that the Greek typikon says that. I suppose that doesn't stop Greeks from celebrating the service. I recall seeing a video on YouTube of the performance of the Lamentations in Greek.

I have been reading through the typikon you recommended on this thread for a few months. It has been extraordinarily helpful in my understanding of the services. Thank you for sharing it here with others.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 09:18:22 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

Fr. John
I've heard it referred to as the "Jerusalem Rite" before and I know of one ROCOR monastery that has celebrated it. Is it really that bad? What's the problem with it?

In Christ,
Andrew

You misunderstand me. I am making no judgments on the service itself. I merely thought that the readers of this site might find it interesting to know that it is forbidden by the Greek Typikon.

Fr. John

I think the issue may be here is which "Greek Typikon" you are referring to. I can think of 6 "Greek" Typikons that are currently published, and while they are similar, there are differences in each of them. There are also 2 competing Arabic Typikons, one published in Beirut and the other in Syria (in these the differences are quite noticeable), and as relevant to this discussion, the Syrian one indicates that the "Lamentations" be chanted. Here is a copy of the Arabic text for those that want them... http://www.dowama.org/sites/docs/Lamentations%20Theotokos%20%28Ar%29.PDF

I am also including a copy of the Greek text... http://www.dowama.org/sites/docs/Lamentations%20for%20the%20Dormition%20%20in%20Greek.pdf
Those who are familiar with Greek might be interested in the last section with the Evlogataria to the Theotokos. There is some interesting "theology" in them which may be the reason for never hearing that section being done anywhere.
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 09:49:33 PM »

My parish did the matins with plaschynitsa for the first time this year. Apparently it is not a universal practice- the Bulgarian diocese of Plovdiv also did it for the first time.

There is a note in the Arabic version of the typikon, which states that the service of Lamentions to the Theotokos is an abuse and should not be used.

Why is that?

The note which is in the original Greek version, calls the service of the Lamentations of the Theotokos "novel and inelegant"  and states that the "Great Church" "strictly forbids" such innovations.

Fr. John

Fr. John
I've heard it referred to as the "Jerusalem Rite" before and I know of one ROCOR monastery that has celebrated it. Is it really that bad? What's the problem with it?

In Christ,
Andrew

You misunderstand me. I am making no judgments on the service itself. I merely thought that the readers of this site might find it interesting to know that it is forbidden by the Greek Typikon.

Fr. John
My apologies, Father! That is interesting that the Greek typikon says that. I suppose that doesn't stop Greeks from celebrating the service. I recall seeing a video on YouTube of the performance of the Lamentations in Greek.

I have been reading through the typikon you recommended on this thread for a few months. It has been extraordinarily helpful in my understanding of the services. Thank you for sharing it here with others.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thank you for your kind comments about the Typikon. Bishop Demetri and I worked on it for several years. I rearranged it in outline form to make it easier to follow.

Fr. John W. Morris
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Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,014


"My god is greater."


« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2013, 09:55:55 AM »

I do recall one of the hymns referring to the Theotokos as "Wisdom" but I don't remember if this was in Matins or in the Lamentations.
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
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