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Author Topic: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries  (Read 5864 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wandile
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« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2013, 12:07:16 PM »

That's fine

You can still firmly condemn and reprimand someone without having to say "What you teach if from Satan!". It is enough to forbid them from doing such and tell them that it is heresy and why. That is all I'm saying

It is good enough that St. Paul himself warned against the arrival and popularity of what he called the "doctrines of demons" in the form of false teachings that would arise in the Church (1 Timothy). Should he have toned it down a bit? I don't think so. It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it. So please don't then turn around and tell me that it is somehow inappropriate as a matter of principle to condemn these false teachings as strongly as they are asserted. If you teach what we know to be false and misleading and faith-destroying as somehow being from God, then who has committed the greater offense: Us for having offended you by pointing out that you are following the father of all lies in affirming that which distorts the apostolic faith, or you by actually doing so, and ascribing to God or His angels or His mother all kinds of novelty?

I know already that you will be unhappy reading this, and probably maintain that this is an unfair depiction of Roman Catholicism, and I'm being unreasonable/extremist or whatever, but...well, you did ask for our opinions on these matters. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not interested in placating anyone. The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.


Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not
 them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

True, but you are within your rights to do so
[/quote]

Former Orthodoxy? Rome is forever Orthodox Smiley
I'll leave you with this :

Quote
John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible."

St. Maximus of Constantinople :

"They have not conformed to the sense of the Apostolic see, and what is laughable, or rather lamentable, as proving their ignorance, they have not hesitated to lie against the Apostolic see itself . . . but have claimed the great Honorius on their side. . . . What did the divine Honorius do, and after him the aged Severinus, and John who followed him? Yet further, what supplication has the blessed pope, who now sits, not made? Have not the whole East and West brought their tears, laments, obsecrations, deprecations, both before God in prayer and before men in their letters? If the Roman see recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus, anathematizes the see of Rome that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he be in communion with the Roman see and the Church of God.... It is not right that one who has been condemned and cast out by the Apostolic see of the city of Rome for his wrong opinions should be named with any kind of honour, until he be received by her, having returned to her — nay, to our Lord — by a pious confession and orthodox faith, by which he can receive holiness and the title of holy.... Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman see, for if it is satisfied all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed pope of the most holy Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic see, which from the incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by all holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions, has received universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the holy Churches of God which are in the whole world for with it the Word who is above the celestial powers binds and looses in heaven also. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by the law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him."

Now I as the norm  here in gonna get accused of incorrect context and proof texting (even though the context is evident and the words are clear Roll Eyes ) so let me leave it at that.
Anyway I see we have gotten to the point of speaking past each other. I made a point about how to reject and I'm gonna leave it at that.
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« Reply #91 on: August 28, 2013, 12:16:19 PM »

Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.
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« Reply #92 on: August 28, 2013, 12:19:04 PM »

That's fine

You can still firmly condemn and reprimand someone without having to say "What you teach if from Satan!". It is enough to forbid them from doing such and tell them that it is heresy and why. That is all I'm saying

It is good enough that St. Paul himself warned against the arrival and popularity of what he called the "doctrines of demons" in the form of false teachings that would arise in the Church (1 Timothy). Should he have toned it down a bit? I don't think so. It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it. So please don't then turn around and tell me that it is somehow inappropriate as a matter of principle to condemn these false teachings as strongly as they are asserted. If you teach what we know to be false and misleading and faith-destroying as somehow being from God, then who has committed the greater offense: Us for having offended you by pointing out that you are following the father of all lies in affirming that which distorts the apostolic faith, or you by actually doing so, and ascribing to God or His angels or His mother all kinds of novelty?

I know already that you will be unhappy reading this, and probably maintain that this is an unfair depiction of Roman Catholicism, and I'm being unreasonable/extremist or whatever, but...well, you did ask for our opinions on these matters. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not interested in placating anyone. The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.


Quote
Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not observe them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

True, but you are within your rights to do so

That is the most interesting thing...a little illustration of what is wrong with Rome in an everyday, micro-level sense, if you will. While you can with regularity tune into the Roman Catholic television station EWTN and find these things being celebrated and expounded upon at great length (all to the detriment of traditional practices, such as praying the hours), eh...if you don't want to believe in them, you don't have to. And the Latins wonder why so many are nominally Catholic only. Sad. These false pseudo-spiritualities have all but replaced the authentic (pre-Schism) tradition of Western Christianity, but hey, at least you don't have to actually believe them, even if the rest of your church does, so it's fine.

Nope. No believer is an island. It hurts everyone when such falsehoods are embraced, and retreating into your own personal cove of acceptable beliefs does not do anything to change the sad situation in which many find themselves. This is how we end up isolated from the churches of our birth, as the faith that once nourished our forefathers is pushed aside in favor of a half-believed in novelty rooted in heresies of the type that the Orthodox pillars of the Church, East and West, once fought valiantly against. But, hey, as Rome shows, you don't have to believe in what they upheld, either...

Look man I made my point and I'm gonna leave it at that.

 As regards to Romes "former orthodoxy"... Rome is forever orthodox angel

Quote
John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. it is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible.'"

Source: "The Eastern Churches and the Papacy", S. Herbert Scott, London: Sheed & Ward, 1928. Pg. 359 (emphasis mine)

St Maximus The Confessor of Constantinople:

"they have not conformed to the sense of the Apostolic see, and what is laughable, or rather lamentable, as proving their ignorance, they have not hesitated to lie against the Apostolic see itself . . . but have claimed the great Honorius on their side. . . . What did the divine Honorius do, and after him the aged Severinus, and John who followed him? Yet further, what supplication has the blessed pope, who now sits, not made? Have not the whole East and West brought their tears, laments, obsecrations, deprecations, both before God in prayer and before men in their letters? If the Roman see recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus, anathematizes the see of Rome that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he be in communion with the Roman see and the Church of God.... It is not right that one who has been condemned and cast out by the Apostolic see of the city of Rome for his wrong opinions should be named with any kind of honour, until he be received by her, having returned to her — nay, to our Lord — by a pious confession and orthodox faith, by which he can receive holiness and the title of holy.... Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman see, for if it is satisfied all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed pope of the most holy Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic see, which from the incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by all holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions, has received universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the holy Churches of God which are in the whole world — for with it the Word who is above the celestial powers binds and looses in heaven also. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by the law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him."

Now I know , as is the norm here for any quote supporting Rome  Roll Eyes, I'm gonna be accused of taking these quotes out of context (even though the context is evident and words are clear as day) and proof texting. So let me leave it at that and get back to the thread topic.
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« Reply #93 on: August 28, 2013, 12:24:46 PM »

Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.

Oh you mean that Hebrew named Yeshua? Cool
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« Reply #94 on: August 28, 2013, 12:31:44 PM »

Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.

Oh you mean that Hebrew named Yeshua? Cool

 :DSuch a common name at the time like saying "You know, George that white guy." laugh  But yes, you know who I'm talking about.
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« Reply #95 on: August 28, 2013, 12:49:22 PM »

This is the sort of thread that makes me want to chuck it all and become a Methodist.  Cool
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« Reply #96 on: August 28, 2013, 01:04:00 PM »

I know...that painting is just terrible, isn't it?
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« Reply #97 on: August 28, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »

Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.

Oh you mean that Hebrew named Yeshua? Cool

 :DSuch a common name at the time like saying "You know, George that white guy." laugh  But yes, you know who I'm talking about.

Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes Smiley
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« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2013, 01:09:58 PM »

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« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2013, 01:12:39 PM »



LOL  that most certainly is not Jesus. Isn't that what National Geographic said Jesus looked like though?
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« Reply #100 on: August 28, 2013, 01:15:17 PM »

Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes Smiley

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  Tongue 
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« Reply #101 on: August 28, 2013, 01:22:45 PM »



LOL  that most certainly is not Jesus. Isn't that what National Geographic said Jesus looked like though?

 Cheesy I saw this picture years ago, and it popped up on the tv and scared me.

(I was young, though, so...)
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« Reply #102 on: August 28, 2013, 01:23:13 PM »


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« Reply #103 on: August 28, 2013, 01:24:45 PM »

Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes Smiley

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  Tongue  

hahahaha
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« Reply #104 on: August 28, 2013, 01:26:50 PM »

Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes Smiley

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  Tongue 

Lol Very slow! I think they want to be more realistic about how Jesus looked.
The Oreintal Orthodox on the other hand... They have had Black Jesus for centuries. They didn't waste time! Cheesy

I wonder if there is a Philippino Jesus
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« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2013, 01:28:56 PM »




lol Where is the Afro? Angry
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« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2013, 01:32:47 PM »

There were good straightening products back in the day.
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« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2013, 01:46:57 PM »

Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes Smiley

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  Tongue 

Lol Very slow! I think they want to be more realistic about how Jesus looked.
The Oreintal Orthodox on the other hand... They have had Black Jesus for centuries. They didn't waste time! Cheesy

I wonder if there is a Philippino Jesus

They don't really do icons, but they do have stuff like this:



Not just Filipino Jesus, but Filipino lady Jesus.
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« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2013, 02:29:11 PM »

Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.
It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
Not so simple when someone is attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its angelic or from God.
Still as simple. You reject it as it doesn't conform to what you've been taught by your church. Leave it at that. You're just being difficult
I try to be as difficult to falsehood as possible.
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« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2013, 02:32:10 PM »

Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.
It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
Not so simple when someone is attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its angelic or from God.
Still as simple. You reject it as it doesn't conform to what you've been taught by your church. Leave it at that. You're just being difficult
I try to be as difficult to falsehood as possible.
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« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2013, 02:39:35 PM »

It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it.
Amen!
The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.
Amen!
While you can with regularity tune into the Roman Catholic television station EWTN and find these things being celebrated and expounded upon at great length (all to the detriment of traditional practices, such as praying the hours), eh...if you don't want to believe in them, you don't have to. And the Latins wonder why so many are nominally Catholic only. Sad. These false pseudo-spiritualities have all but replaced the authentic (pre-Schism) tradition of Western Christianity, but hey, at least you don't have to actually believe them, even if the rest of your church does, so it's fine.
Amen!
Nope. No believer is an island. It hurts everyone when such falsehoods are embraced, and retreating into your own personal cove of acceptable beliefs does not do anything to change the sad situation in which many find themselves. This is how we end up isolated from the churches of our birth, as the faith that once nourished our forefathers is pushed aside in favor of a half-believed in novelty rooted in heresies of the type that the Orthodox pillars of the Church, East and West, once fought valiantly against. But, hey, as Rome shows, you don't have to believe in what they upheld, either...
You see through the visionaries so clearly!

The fact remains, the whole cult of visionaries pops up in the West only post schism (although the first millenium did not lack visions, nor does the East lack them now), and the strange practices and cults they promoted find no roots in the first millenium Church-somewhere recently I saw a something from Pope St. Athanasius condemning what is akin to the Sacred Heart (can't find it now).
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« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2013, 02:50:00 PM »

Didn't I quote that in this thread? Or maybe just alluded to it. It is from St. Athanasius' Epistula ad Adelphium (c.370), wherein it is written:

Quote
We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of
God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God.
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« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2013, 03:42:32 PM »

So the Orthodox don't believe in Western Apparitions. I think We will survive and so will they.  Cheesy
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« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2013, 04:14:01 PM »

I don't venerate Catholic Saints but I can certainly respect them. I recall reading The Way by Josemaria Escriva before my conversion. I found it quite nice.
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« Reply #114 on: August 28, 2013, 05:09:22 PM »

So the Orthodox don't believe in Western Apparitions. I think We will survive and so will they.  Cheesy

One of my friends asked me to take a look at Leary's visitations and locutions.

In addition to prophecies that never came true, there was an overwhelming amount of politics in the words coming out of "Christ's" mouth. That to me raises a huge red flag. How could his Roman Catholic confessor approve such messages?

Reference: John Leary, Prepare for the Great Tribulation and the Era of Peace: Volume IX, Queenship Publishing. 1998.
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« Reply #115 on: August 28, 2013, 07:39:04 PM »

This is the sort of thread that makes me want to chuck it all and become a Methodist.  Cool

I know...that painting is just terrible, isn't it?

Not the painting - the thread!!   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #116 on: August 28, 2013, 07:41:36 PM »

That's fine. The issue is not correct doctrine like I said. The issue is ascribing origins to certain teachings.
Are you deliberately not listening to anything I said?

No, I am listening.  But I think you are too sensitive to anything approximating criticism of Roman Catholicism.  

If a Western vision teaches a "doctrine" which is manifestly un-Orthodox, we would reserve the right, if asked about it, to say it is heretical.  You don't seem to have a problem with that.  Your problem is with going beyond that to say that it is demonic in origin.  

If it is human in origin, then nothing "supernatural" happened even though such was claimed.  And yet, if it still deceives people and leads them astray from the truth, who benefits from that?  Not God, and not people.  Who else is there but the minions of hell?  

If, however, the visions are in fact supernatural in origin, and yet teach obviously heretical doctrines, that's definitely not coming from God (who is Truth) or from people (who are not supernatural).  Who else is left?  Gazelles?  

Look, I'm content to say "X is not Orthodox" and leave it at that.  But if someone else wants to go further, it's not like there's no justification for it whatsoever.  You bring up Gamaliel's policy on such matters, but what you neglect to mention is that the nascent Christian movement of his time was not considered to be a separate religion from Judaism, and the Jews themselves were not united in their opinion of it.  That's very different from "What do the Orthodox think of Lourdes?"  A lot more has been solidified.          

Quote
Not my logic at all. Rather what he and you misunderstood to be my logic...

Maybe you could try it again.  Because multiple people here seem to have understood it the way I did.  And accusing everyone who disagrees with you of extremism isn't going to cut it.  I'm far from anti-Catholic: if you want evidence, read my posts here over the last decade.        
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« Reply #117 on: September 08, 2013, 04:42:42 AM »

I don't think Jesus was brown/black. Apostle Luke who painted him white. Anyway Jesus now can apepar in whatever color He like. To some people He ahs apepared with brown hair and to other with blond. Wink
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« Reply #118 on: September 08, 2013, 06:19:56 AM »

I don't think Jesus was brown/black. Apostle Luke who painted him white. Anyway Jesus now can apepar in whatever color He like. To some people He ahs apepared with brown hair and to other with blond. Wink

 Roll Eyes

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« Reply #119 on: September 08, 2013, 09:22:23 AM »

You don't believe me? Would it be ahrd for Christ to appear in any color  Huh
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« Reply #120 on: September 08, 2013, 09:46:39 AM »

You don't believe me? Would it be ahrd for Christ to appear in any color  Huh

I believe many people have a rich imagination. 
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« Reply #121 on: September 08, 2013, 09:49:00 AM »

Why is ahrd for you to believe? God can do anything... Monk Paisios himself have seen Jesus as blond.
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« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2013, 10:37:06 AM »

Why is ahrd for you to believe? God can do anything... Monk Paisios himself have seen Jesus as blond.

Platinum, more likely:

Quote from: Revelation 1:14
His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire.
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« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2013, 01:29:07 PM »

That's fine. The issue is not correct doctrine like I said. The issue is ascribing origins to certain teachings.
Are you deliberately not listening to anything I said?

No, I am listening.  But I think you are too sensitive to anything approximating criticism of Roman Catholicism.  

If a Western vision teaches a "doctrine" which is manifestly un-Orthodox, we would reserve the right, if asked about it, to say it is heretical.  You don't seem to have a problem with that.  Your problem is with going beyond that to say that it is demonic in origin.  

If it is human in origin, then nothing "supernatural" happened even though such was claimed.  And yet, if it still deceives people and leads them astray from the truth, who benefits from that?  Not God, and not people.  Who else is there but the minions of hell?  

If, however, the visions are in fact supernatural in origin, and yet teach obviously heretical doctrines, that's definitely not coming from God (who is Truth) or from people (who are not supernatural).  Who else is left?  Gazelles?  

Look, I'm content to say "X is not Orthodox" and leave it at that.  But if someone else wants to go further, it's not like there's no justification for it whatsoever.  You bring up Gamaliel's policy on such matters, but what you neglect to mention is that the nascent Christian movement of his time was not considered to be a separate religion from Judaism, and the Jews themselves were not united in their opinion of it.  That's very different from "What do the Orthodox think of Lourdes?"  A lot more has been solidified.          

Quote
Not my logic at all. Rather what he and you misunderstood to be my logic...

Maybe you could try it again.  Because multiple people here seem to have understood it the way I did.  And accusing everyone who disagrees with you of extremism isn't going to cut it.  I'm far from anti-Catholic: if you want evidence, read my posts here over the last decade.        
This.

If we know as Orthodox the source does not come from God, and if the Ultramontanists deny their human origin, that doesn't leave much else in the way of origins.
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« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2013, 01:41:48 PM »

You are reading things into what I said.

I overstated nothing. What's similar is there is faction who believe themselves the only source of truth and keepers of faith and there is an opposed who presents something they do not accept.

As a general principle, OK, but why pretend to be neutral when we are both Christians?  There's clearly a difference between the Jewish leadership's rejection of Christ and the Orthodox neutrality on/discouragement of belief in private revelations that are by all accounts entirely unnecessary to be a good Christian.  The Jewish priesthood believed they were basing their condemnation of Christ on their interpretation of the Scriptures (the "source" of truth).  But we believe that Christ himself is the Truth Incarnate, through whom and only through whom we properly understand the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.  And he clearly admitted as much when called on it in various ways in the Gospels.  We don't give the Jews the benefit of the doubt on that matter: the Jewish leadership largely rejected him, but the entire people did not reject him.  As St Paul says about humans in general in Romans 1, "they are without excuse".  All of that is public revelation.  It is of the substance of Christian faith.  Why be neutral about it?  Are you an adherent of the Jesus Seminar or something?  There's no justification for being neutral unless you're straining to make a ridiculous comparison between us and the Sanhedrin.    

Our acceptance or rejection of Western spiritual phenomena is based on the Orthodox faith and what is in accordance with it.  If a RC has a vision which promotes a RC belief that Orthodox regard as erroneous (if not outright heretical) in terms of the publicly revealed Orthodox faith, what should the Orthodox believe about it?  If an Orthodox has a vision which rejects papal infallibility, what will you or the Vatican have to say about that?  Will they say "we should give it the benefit of the doubt because you never know"?  Or will they say "no vision that comes from God would contradict our faith" and reject it outright?  They did the latter with such visions as those of Veronica Leuken in Bayside, NY.  They were judged to be contrary to RC faith and/or morals, and condemned.  All we are applying is the same principle.  You just don't like it because we're not jumping on your preferred bandwagon.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe there was something supernatural and "of God" in Lourdes and Fatima; I believe that because I trust the basic story and I know the positive effect their messages of increased prayer and penance have had on myself and others.  I don't have all the answers regarding how to account for things like Our Lady's identification as "the Immaculate Conception", I have some ideas of why things may have happened the way they did that don't involve Satan, but it's all just a hunch.  I don't claim it as the Church's opinion, it's just mine, and I'm willing to accept correction if I'm wrong.  But I don't pretend for one minute that "Immaculate Conception", as RCs believe it, is an Orthodox doctrine, or that it (or other "revelations" that give credence to RC beliefs or practices) may be more Orthodox than I thought because someone claimed a vision confirmed it for them.  That's ludicrous.  No one is required to believe any of these things.  So again and again, we return to the substance of the faith.

Quote
Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.

LOL.  You're so into Gamaliel that you pass over his student:

Quote
Galatians 1 (RSV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Exactly how much benefit of the doubt do you want?  Your St Bernadette says her Lady called herself the Immaculate Conception (not "I am/was immaculately conceived" but "I am the Immaculate Conception").  You inform us of that vision.  Our official response is along the lines of "The Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox teaching, so we cannot agree that that message is of divine origin".  If the Lady told St Bernadette "My son is dead, he lived to be 75 and had children with that Mary of Magdala, and your maternal grandfather is a direct descendent", would the RC's really give it any more benefit of the doubt than we did in the first example?  Don't be silly.    

Now, some go a little further and, identifying the Immaculate Conception as heretical, assign its origins to the demonic.  I don't know that I feel comfortable saying so outright, but they have a point: what/who is the origin of heresy?  One of the Matins antiphons on 15 August in the old Roman Breviary addresses the Mother of God, saying "Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, thou hast trampled down all the heresies in the whole world"...it's probably safe to say that heresy does not come from God.  Then?  Even if it is of human origin alone, it is false and is used to deceive people and lead them away from the Truth.  That is the work of the demons.  So it's not like it's an absolutely extreme nonsensical view.  Again, we start from the faith and go forward, we don't start with visions and read backward.      

How about Muhammad's ascension to heaven: should we give it the same benefit of the doubt?

You're childish


No, he's not.  He's applying your logic to other "private revelations" claimed by others.

I was going to weigh in, but I couldn't add to this. I agree with Mor.
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« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2013, 01:52:23 PM »

Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol  Roll Eyes NO!

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the benefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox

It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)

I'm quite content to ascribe teachings  and visions to human frailty and view them erroneous when they are contrary to the teachings of my Church. Neither your nor my church views human beings as chess pieces in a never ending game between God and the Devil. Hence, I have no need to reflexively view those I regard as being in error - and usually (as I believe) only partly so - as "Demonic."  "Wrong" works well enough for me.

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« Reply #126 on: September 08, 2013, 02:43:41 PM »

Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.

LOL.  You're so into Gamaliel that you pass over his student:

Quote
Galatians 1 (RSV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Exactly how much benefit of the doubt do you want?  Your St Bernadette says her Lady called herself the Immaculate Conception (not "I am/was immaculately conceived" but "I am the Immaculate Conception").  You inform us of that vision.  Our official response is along the lines of "The Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox teaching, so we cannot agree that that message is of divine origin".  If the Lady told St Bernadette "My son is dead, he lived to be 75 and had children with that Mary of Magdala, and your maternal grandfather is a direct descendent", would the RC's really give it any more benefit of the doubt than we did in the first example?  Don't be silly.    
I'm sorry I missed this post.  Thanks podkarpatska!
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