Author Topic: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries  (Read 7160 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« on: August 27, 2013, 03:33:01 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
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Offline mike

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 03:35:11 PM »
I personally do not care.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 03:40:57 PM »
Not sure about devotions per se, or which visions people might think of here. I certainly respect non-Orthodox people and have considered them helpful in my "life in Christ." I suppose I haven't really given it much thought, however, as I feel like I've barely scratched the surface of the pre-schism eastern writers, and haven't had much time to deal with large chunks of other periods and areas.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 03:43:59 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

This vision prompted Pope Leo to compose the prayer of St.Michael

« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:46:12 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 03:45:14 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will


I think the answer to the "Immactualte Conception" one is easy. They don't believe it.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 03:49:40 PM »
None. No.  Although I do find some interesting:  St Bruno and St John of the Cross.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 04:03:19 PM »
None. No.  Although I do find some interesting:  St Bruno and St John of the Cross.

Why those two?  :)
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 04:12:08 PM »
Saints, perhaps, visions, no.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 04:16:35 PM »
No disrespect but there are so many Saints known to Orthodoxy, including pre-schism Western ones, that I never dwell on them.


Offline hecma925

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 04:23:40 PM »
None. No.  Although I do find some interesting:  St Bruno and St John of the Cross.

Why those two?  :)

I have been going back to my fascination with the Carthusian order in th RCC.  St Bruno being called to the "desert" to pursue a closer relationship with God is not unlike many of the earlier monastics.  When you look at how the Carthusians have maintained their traditions, I think it's very commendable.  It was a topic of conversation that popped up with a hieromonk I know and he said that, for the most part, they're the closest thing to Orthodoxy there is in the Western church.

St John of the Cross is interesting.  I can identify on one level being of Spanish and Jewish descent myself as he was.  His efforts to reform the Carmelite order led to his imprisonment and torture.  He continued his writings, including the poem Cantico Espiriual, which is beautiful in and of itself, but when you know what a scholar John was, take a second look.  It's as close to the Song of Solomon as you can find.

So, I can respect these two men and their work for their church.  I do not recognize them as saints nor venerate them, but I add their titles because they are recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 04:30:25 PM »
I have a lot of respect for the attitude that St Francis of Assisi and St Therese of Lisieux promoted, but no devotion for them. They're up there with Gandhi: sterling people, but no saints.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 04:30:50 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

This vision prompted Pope Leo to compose the prayer of St.Michael



Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2013, 04:38:52 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?

I would not want to publicly venerate someone who has not been glorified by a church with which my bishop is in communion.  But I would be dishonest if I did not acknowledge the obvious hand of God on the lives of certain such people, that the Holy Spirit moves where it wills, and that we might be very surprised to see who is in paradise at the end.  Now I cannot privately judge anyone's sainthood, which is what that would be doing.  I think that if reunion occurs some cases would be automatic but others would take discernment.  In some cases glorification might be recognized on the basis of a saints life, not his or her teachings.  In other cases visions, if accepted, would have to be theologically reinterpreted.  For now, I know where the truth is found in its fullness and there I shall remain. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 04:43:19 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
As far as I care, I have problems with "visionaries," whether they agree with Orthodoxy or not.

No devotions to 11th century saints in the West, unless they were in communion with the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 04:45:23 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Dogma ex machina.  ::)

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2013, 04:52:06 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

This vision prompted Pope Leo to compose the prayer of St.Michael



Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.

Strong opinion... Be careful of what you say though
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2013, 04:54:36 PM »
Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

The Pontiff had just finished reading the first chapter of Job. Then he wondered: How would all this sound with a twist of aggiornamento?


« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 04:55:53 PM by Romaios »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2013, 04:54:58 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
As far as I care, I have problems with "visionaries," whether they agree with Orthodoxy or not.

No devotions to 11th century saints in the West, unless they were in communion with the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.

Do you at least admire certain Catholic saints e.g. St.Francis of Assisi, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa etc ?  :)
"We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable."
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2013, 04:56:43 PM »
Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

The Pontiff had just finished reading the first chapter of Job. Then he wondered: How would all this sound with a little aggiornamento?




LOL  :D nice

Factually though, he had just finished saying mass and was about to leave the Altar. The vision happened right then
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2013, 05:06:31 PM »
They don't really have anything to do with the Orthodox Church or its faith, so I can't say I care very much about them one way or another. Surely we have more than enough of our own saints to focus on and learn from. I would rather listen to the syanxarium being read in the Church than wonder about any outside of it. As for any particular RC vision or visionary, I don't particularly care for the way such things are approached in the West. If we read the Desert Fathers, for instance, there are many to whom extraordinary events did occur (such as St. Bishoy, the patron of our church here in Albuquerque, who is famous for having washed the feet of Christ, and for having carried Him in the form an old man), yet the overall message is never to seek out such things ourselves, let alone to accept them as sources of dogma, establishing some practice or teaching, as Roman Catholics seem to (e.g., the various novenas and other practices originating with visions claimed by this or that person, to say nothing of even more problematic declarations from "St. Mary"; I would steer clear from any such thing, whether it is claimed to come from Orthodox or non-Orthodox people).

While it's presented in a somewhat childish way (sadly fitting the CYC ethos, from what I have seen), I will have to agree with Fr. Mauritius Anba Bishoy when he says that a faith based on miracles is not a mature faith.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:08:24 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2013, 05:08:06 PM »
Factually though, he had just finished saying mass and was about to leave the Altar. The vision happened right then

Sure. Exordium in excelsis.

"I Leo (Vicar of the Son of God, Servant of the servants of the Lord, Patriarch of the West, etc. etc.) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a guttural voice, saying:..."
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:13:56 PM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 05:15:27 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Dogma ex machina.  ::)
Pretty much, although that is tame compared to its fruit, Maximillian Kolbe's quasi-incarnation of the Imaculata.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 05:18:41 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
As far as I care, I have problems with "visionaries," whether they agree with Orthodoxy or not.

No devotions to 11th century saints in the West, unless they were in communion with the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.

Do you at least admire certain Catholic saints e.g. St.Francis of Assisi, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa etc ?  :)
Sure.  Btw, I meant to say "after the 11th century."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2013, 05:19:29 PM »
Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.

Strong opinion... Be careful of what you say though

If you're asking an Orthodox about Lourdes, and the Immaculate Conception is part and parcel of this apparition, why should he be careful of judging it to be demonic deception?  After all, it is not an Orthodox teaching, so obviously it's not coming from God.  

According to my understanding of the Roman Catholic Church's position on these matters, no one need believe in any "private revelations", even if they have some level of ecclesiastical approval (and it is a rather apophatic approval at that).  You can disregard them all, even if the messages are not contrary to the faith.  If they are contrary to the faith, all the more reason to dismiss them.  

The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2013, 05:21:59 PM »
I like Bernard of Clairvaux (but not the idea that he was breastfed by the Theotokos). And William of St. Thierry.  :)


« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:28:40 PM by Romaios »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »
Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.

Strong opinion... Be careful of what you say though

If you're asking an Orthodox about Lourdes, and the Immaculate Conception is part and parcel of this apparition, why should he be careful of judging it to be demonic deception?  After all, it is not an Orthodox teaching, so obviously it's not coming from God.
 

This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

Hence my caution of using such strong words. Does the Orthodox Church officially condemn Immaculate conception or is that just the majority opinion among Orthodox with no official condemnation?

According to my understanding of the Roman Catholic Church's position on these matters, no one need believe in any "private revelations", even if they have some level of ecclesiastical approval (and it is a rather apophatic approval at that).  You can disregard them all, even if the messages are not contrary to the faith.  If they are contrary to the faith, all the more reason to dismiss them.  

The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                

Care to name these feasts? :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:30:57 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 05:37:18 PM »
The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                 

Care to name these feasts? :)

Corpus Christi

Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Immaculate Heart of Mary

Our Lady of Lourdes (February 11)

Our Lady of Guadalupe (December 12)

Stigmata of St. Francis (September 17)

etc.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:48:27 PM by Romaios »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 05:38:38 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

Quote
Hence my caution of using such strong words. Does the Orthodox Church officially condemn Immaculate conception or is that just the majority opinion among Orthodox with no official condemnation?

There must be a thread about this, look it up there.

Quote
Care to name these feasts? :)

Well, off the top of my head, the feasts of the Sacred Heart of Jesus (Friday after Corpus Christi), the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Saturday after Corpus Christi), Our Lady of Lourdes (11 February), Our Lady of Mount Carmel (16 July), Our Lady of the Rosary (7 October), and Our Lady of Guadalupe (12 December...at least for the Americas).  Maybe there are others, but my books are packed away.      
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 05:40:54 PM »
Stigmata of St. Francis (September 14)

Actually, I think this is 17 September.  But it is not on the reformed general calendar, which brings up another point.  The "EF" calendar has more of these devotional feasts than the "OF", even if the major ones are shared. 

Forgot about that one as well as Corpus Christi's origins in private revelation...thanks! 
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »
The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                

Care to name these feasts? :)

Corpus Christi

Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Immaculate Heart of Mary

Our Lady of Lourdes (February 11)

Our Lady of Guadalupe (December 12)

Stigmata of St. Francis (September 14)

etc.


Aaaaahhhh I see
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 05:43:05 PM »
Stigmata of St. Francis (September 14)

Actually, I think this is 17 September.  But it is not on the reformed general calendar, which brings up another point.  The "EF" calendar has more of these devotional feasts than the "OF", even if the major ones are shared. 

It used to be until the post Vatican II revision of the general Roman Calendar. IIRC the Franciscans retain it.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 05:44:30 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This kind of thinking would be shocking or scandalous if it weren't so normal among many Catholics, Rome's official policy of agnosticism towards any particular vision notwithstanding.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 05:45:13 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:51:22 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 05:46:44 PM »
I wonder how many others are preserved by the various orders?  

Anyway, even on the reformed general Roman calendar there are enough of these feasts such that the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi comes into conflict with the non-necessity of belief in private revelations.  It's rather bizarre, and contributes to the problem of the "parallel magisterium of seers".  
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 05:55:17 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.

I understood what you were trying to convey, but you overstated your case.  What Christ did is different from what Bernadette did.  You can't just act as if our rejection of RC private revelations is the same as the Jews' rejection of Christ without inviting the sort of comment I made.  Or, if it is merely an innocuous example of a general principle of "giving something the benefit of the doubt", then it is really useless.  You could give just about anything the benefit of the doubt.

Again, the overstating of the case is common to RC's who run after seers.  No RC is required to believe in Fatima, and yet the way some of them talk, every ill in the world is the result of the Pope not consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  I wish your Church would just pick one.  Either these are binding on the faithful, or they are not.  But don't say "They are not binding on the faithful" and then impose them through the back door.       
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 05:59:18 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.
we don't need it to be revealed: we can judge on its contradiction with the True Faith.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2013, 05:59:36 PM »
I wonder how many others are preserved by the various orders?  

The Cistercians never had a feast of the Lactatio Bernardi - kudos to them for that!  :P
 

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.

I understood what you were trying to convey, but you overstated your case.  What Christ did is different from what Bernadette did.  You can't just act as if our rejection of RC private revelations is the same as the Jews' rejection of Christ without inviting the sort of comment I made.  Or, if it is merely an innocuous example of a general principle of "giving something the benefit of the doubt", then it is really useless.  You could give just about anything the benefit of the doubt.

Again, the overstating of the case is common to RC's who run after seers.  No RC is required to believe in Fatima, and yet the way some of them talk, every ill in the world is the result of the Pope not consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  I wish your Church would just pick one.  Either these are binding on the faithful, or they are not.  But don't say "They are not binding on the faithful" and then impose them through the back door.        

You are reading things into what I said.

I overstated nothing. What's similar is there is faction who believe themselves the only source of truth and keepers of faith and there is an opposed who presents something they do not accept. Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:10:53 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2013, 06:06:45 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.
we don't need it to be revealed: we can judge on its contradiction with the True Faith.

If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2013, 06:13:46 PM »
If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception

Some of our greatest Saints and Elders considered Western mystics to be the victims of demonic delusion. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov especially, in his book On prelest dwells on this subject.

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-is-spiritual-delusion 

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2013, 06:17:38 PM »
If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception

Some of our greatest Saints and Elders considered Western mystics to be the victims of demonic delusion. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov especially, in his book On prelest dwells on this subject.

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-is-spiritual-delusion 

I know and these elders were fallible and emotional human beings. Ever heard of Gamiliel's test?
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2013, 06:23:02 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2013, 06:26:33 PM »
I know and these elders were fallible and emotional human beings. Ever heard of Gamiliel's test?

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind would dismiss their authority - no more than you would be willing to give up reverence for Western mystics and visionaries or doubt the Magisterium of your own Church.

Rav Gamliel's test had nothing to do with visions and private ecstasies. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:29:41 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2013, 06:27:44 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

If you don't believe these peasant girls then by all means dismiss their claims. But don't go claiming,its from Satan now. As you saw the pharasies did that and look how that turned out :P
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:29:55 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2013, 06:28:59 PM »
I know and these elders were fallible and emotional human beings. Ever heard of Gamiliel's test?

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind would dismiss their authority - no more than you would be willing to give up reverence for Western mystics and visionaries.

Rav Gamliel's test had nothing to do with visions and private ecstasies.  

Yes but the wisdom of the principle is universal and can be applied. Since you know of it, use it
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2013, 06:39:53 PM »
Yes but the wisdom of the principle is universal and can be applied. Since you know of it, use it

I just don't see how it applies to the Sacred Heart. Or the Immaculate Conception.

It's just as true that delusion breeds more delusion.   


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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2013, 06:42:36 PM »
I like Bernard of Clairvaux (But not the idea that he was breastfed by the Theotokos And William of St. Thierry.  :)




Same here
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2013, 06:47:30 PM »
Yes but the wisdom of the principle is universal and can be applied. Since you know of it, use it

I just don't see how it applies to the Sacred Heart. Or the Immaculate Conception.

How it applies to SH , IC and those elders you mentioned is that; one must not be hasty in judgment/action lest they find themselves fighting/condemning (in this case) God

THAT is the principle of Gamiliel's test.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:49:26 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2013, 06:50:19 PM »
Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

I suppose you could call true or false two extremes, if you want to.

Quote
If you don't believe these peasant girls then by all means dismiss their claims. But don't go claiming,its from Satan now. As you saw the pharasies did that and look how that turned out :P

Yeah, you keep bringing them up for some reason. I don't see how it is Pharisaical in the slightest to insist on correct doctrine, and to be wary of demons and the various visions and messages they tempt the faithful with, but I guess I am an extremist because I'm tempted to answer your repeated allusions to the Pharisees with a few of my own to the Montanists and others who accepted new supposed revelations given to the faithful...and of course, we can all look at how that turned out for them, as well.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2013, 07:00:08 PM »
Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

I suppose you could call true or false two extremes, if you want to.

Quote
If you don't believe these peasant girls then by all means dismiss their claims. But don't go claiming,its from Satan now. As you saw the pharasies did that and look how that turned out :P


Yeah, you keep bringing them up for some reason. I don't see how it is Pharisaical in the slightest to insist on correct doctrine, and to be wary of demons and the various visions and messages they tempt the faithful with, but I guess I am an extremist because I'm tempted to answer your repeated allusions to the Pharisees with a few of my own to the Montanists and others who accepted new supposed revelations given to the faithful...and of course, we can all look at how that turned out for them, as well.

OH MY GOSH ::) FACE PALM

lol One more time : correct doctrine is not the issue.  The issue is neither condemnation of what you refuse to believe. The issue is claiming its from Satan. The Pharasies did this and some guy earlier in the thread was guilty of doing the same. The problem is the pharasies ,in so doing this, blasphemed the Holy Spirit and there is always this possibility as you don't know the true origins of the doctrine and neither did they know the origin of Christs power over demons.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2013, 07:10:48 PM »
If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception

Some of our greatest Saints and Elders considered Western mystics to be the victims of demonic delusion. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov especially, in his book On prelest dwells on this subject.

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-is-spiritual-delusion 

You might enjoy this little history of visions seen by western heretics:

Marian Apparitions:  Divine Intevention or Delusion?
By Miriam Lambouras
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2013, 07:14:04 PM »
The view of the Orthodox Fathers and Elders on delusion (prelest, plane) and its diagnosis is quite consistent and cogent. It's not something someone just dreamt up or had a revelation about, but the fruit of the experience of countless generations of ascetics. If they don't possess the charisma of spiritual discernment, then I don't know who does.

What they say about imagination, sensual impressions, stigmata, visions and apparitions of "angels of light" is rooted in and confirmed by their own spiritual life and experience with teaching disciples.  

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2013, 07:17:03 PM »
I like Bernard of Clairvaux (but not the idea that he was breastfed by the Theotokos). And William of St. Thierry.  :)




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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2013, 07:19:09 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.

There's more in that Gospel passage than meets your eye. See the thread on King Solomon's Ring, IIRC.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2013, 07:20:28 PM »
lol One more time : correct doctrine is not the issue.
 

You sure about that? ???

Quote
The issue is neither condemnation of what you refuse to believe. The issue is claiming its from Satan. The Pharasies did this and some guy earlier in the thread was guilty of doing the same. The problem is the pharasies ,in so doing this, blasphemed the Holy Spirit and there is always this possibility as you don't know the true origins of the doctrine and neither did they know the origin of Christs power over demons.

I'm going to have to continue to disagree with you. As you'd have it, we cannot say for sure where it comes from, so there's always some outside chance that it could be right (that's what I meant by giving anyone the benefit of the doubt; I'm not actually doing that or suggesting anyone else do so). And, as luck would have it, we do not make any kind of binding proclamations regarding the life of the Holy Spirit as it may or may not exist in other communions (regardless of what "some guy" earlier in the thread may have written, as was his right). So that is a non-concern. What is a very real concern, however, is that any of the faithful should be taken in by the Latin visions and come to believe in the very false doctrines promulgated with reference to them. Because we can in fact tell where these erroneous ideas came from, so it's not really a mystery or something that we need to watch for in the sense that you are advocating. Indeed, such delusions are dangerous, but not because we might fail to appraise them properly. For every one that is rejected, the Fathers have done so already. To give but one example, St. Athanasius the Apostolic pointed out in his Epistula ad Adelphium (c. 370 AD) that it is wrong to worship the Body of Christ (as in, the literal physical anatomy or pieces thereof) considered as a separate thing, apart from the Word, so we do not wonder about your popular "Sacred Heart" devotion, rooted as it is in post-Schism/17th century religious orders and private visions given to Marguerite Marie Alacoque that encourage doing just that which St. Athanasius has told us is wrong to do.

So we are not at a loss as to how to consider these things. However, for your benefit, please note that I have written all this without even once saying that the visions themselves came from the Devil, or anywhere else. So perhaps now you can understand without trying to make us hedge our bets in favor of your "well, maybeeee..." theology. That's spiritually dangerous and theologically bankrupt.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2013, 07:28:51 PM »
You might enjoy this little history of visions seen by western heretics:

Marian Apparitions:  Divine Intevention or Delusion?
By Miriam Lambouras
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

Looks interesting - thanks!  :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2013, 07:48:03 PM »
Yes but the wisdom of the principle is universal and can be applied. Since you know of it, use it

I just don't see how it applies to the Sacred Heart. Or the Immaculate Conception.

How it applies to SH , IC and those elders you mentioned is that; one must not be hasty in judgment/action lest they find themselves fighting/condemning (in this case) God

THAT is the principle of Gamiliel's test.
How about Muhammad's ascension to heaven: should we give it the same benefit of the doubt?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2013, 08:53:56 PM »
Yes but the wisdom of the principle is universal and can be applied. Since you know of it, use it

I just don't see how it applies to the Sacred Heart. Or the Immaculate Conception.

How it applies to SH , IC and those elders you mentioned is that; one must not be hasty in judgment/action lest they find themselves fighting/condemning (in this case) God

THAT is the principle of Gamiliel's test.
How about Muhammad's ascension to heaven: should we give it the same benefit of the doubt?


You're childish
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2013, 08:56:41 PM »
The view of the Orthodox Fathers and Elders on delusion (prelest, plane) and its diagnosis is quite consistent and cogent. It's not something someone just dreamt up or had a revelation about, but the fruit of the experience of countless generations of ascetics. If they don't possess the charisma of spiritual discernment, then I don't know who does.

What they say about imagination, sensual impressions, stigmata, visions and apparitions of "angels of light" is rooted in and confirmed by their own spiritual life and experience with teaching disciples.  

Yet they are still fallible... so,can I ask you what their take on stigmata is?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2013, 09:03:20 PM »
lol One more time : correct doctrine is not the issue.
 

You sure about that? ???

Quote
The issue is neither condemnation of what you refuse to believe. The issue is claiming its from Satan. The Pharasies did this and some guy earlier in the thread was guilty of doing the same. The problem is the pharasies ,in so doing this, blasphemed the Holy Spirit and there is always this possibility as you don't know the true origins of the doctrine and neither did they know the origin of Christs power over demons.

I'm going to have to continue to disagree with you. As you'd have it, we cannot say for sure where it comes from, so there's always some outside chance that it could be right (that's what I meant by giving anyone the benefit of the doubt; I'm not actually doing that or suggesting anyone else do so). And, as luck would have it, we do not make any kind of binding proclamations regarding the life of the Holy Spirit as it may or may not exist in other communions (regardless of what "some guy" earlier in the thread may have written, as was his right). So that is a non-concern. What is a very real concern, however, is that any of the faithful should be taken in by the Latin visions and come to believe in the very false doctrines promulgated with reference to them. Because we can in fact tell where these erroneous ideas came from, so it's not really a mystery or something that we need to watch for in the sense that you are advocating. Indeed, such delusions are dangerous, but not because we might fail to appraise them properly. For every one that is rejected, the Fathers have done so already. To give but one example, St. Athanasius the Apostolic pointed out in his Epistula ad Adelphium (c. 370 AD) that it is wrong to worship the Body of Christ (as in, the literal physical anatomy or pieces thereof) considered as a separate thing, apart from the Word, so we do not wonder about your popular "Sacred Heart" devotion, rooted as it is in post-Schism/17th century religious orders and private visions given to Marguerite Marie Alacoque that encourage doing just that which St. Athanasius has told us is wrong to do.

So we are not at a loss as to how to consider these things. However, for your benefit, please note that I have written all this without even once saying that the visions themselves came from the Devil, or anywhere else. So perhaps now you can understand without trying to make us hedge our bets in favor of your "well, maybeeee..." theology. That's spiritually dangerous and theologically bankrupt.

"Well maybeee theology" LOL that's not my position either. Are you blatantly not listening to what I'm saying?

e.g. Islam is not true. It contradicts the Catholic faith. Its heresy. Is it from Satan ? I don't know and won't pretend to know. All I know is the truth revealed to me and it contradicts this truth.

How is that "well maybeee..." theology. There is not even a hint of the possibility of me accepting Islam so there's no "maybe" or "give it the benefit of the doubt".

You're being unnecessarily argumentative WOW
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2013, 09:39:55 PM »
You are reading things into what I said.

I overstated nothing. What's similar is there is faction who believe themselves the only source of truth and keepers of faith and there is an opposed who presents something they do not accept.

As a general principle, OK, but why pretend to be neutral when we are both Christians?  There's clearly a difference between the Jewish leadership's rejection of Christ and the Orthodox neutrality on/discouragement of belief in private revelations that are by all accounts entirely unnecessary to be a good Christian.  The Jewish priesthood believed they were basing their condemnation of Christ on their interpretation of the Scriptures (the "source" of truth).  But we believe that Christ himself is the Truth Incarnate, through whom and only through whom we properly understand the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.  And he clearly admitted as much when called on it in various ways in the Gospels.  We don't give the Jews the benefit of the doubt on that matter: the Jewish leadership largely rejected him, but the entire people did not reject him.  As St Paul says about humans in general in Romans 1, "they are without excuse".  All of that is public revelation.  It is of the substance of Christian faith.  Why be neutral about it?  Are you an adherent of the Jesus Seminar or something?  There's no justification for being neutral unless you're straining to make a ridiculous comparison between us and the Sanhedrin.    

Our acceptance or rejection of Western spiritual phenomena is based on the Orthodox faith and what is in accordance with it.  If a RC has a vision which promotes a RC belief that Orthodox regard as erroneous (if not outright heretical) in terms of the publicly revealed Orthodox faith, what should the Orthodox believe about it?  If an Orthodox has a vision which rejects papal infallibility, what will you or the Vatican have to say about that?  Will they say "we should give it the benefit of the doubt because you never know"?  Or will they say "no vision that comes from God would contradict our faith" and reject it outright?  They did the latter with such visions as those of Veronica Leuken in Bayside, NY.  They were judged to be contrary to RC faith and/or morals, and condemned.  All we are applying is the same principle.  You just don't like it because we're not jumping on your preferred bandwagon.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe there was something supernatural and "of God" in Lourdes and Fatima; I believe that because I trust the basic story and I know the positive effect their messages of increased prayer and penance have had on myself and others.  I don't have all the answers regarding how to account for things like Our Lady's identification as "the Immaculate Conception", I have some ideas of why things may have happened the way they did that don't involve Satan, but it's all just a hunch.  I don't claim it as the Church's opinion, it's just mine, and I'm willing to accept correction if I'm wrong.  But I don't pretend for one minute that "Immaculate Conception", as RCs believe it, is an Orthodox doctrine, or that it (or other "revelations" that give credence to RC beliefs or practices) may be more Orthodox than I thought because someone claimed a vision confirmed it for them.  That's ludicrous.  No one is required to believe any of these things.  So again and again, we return to the substance of the faith.

Quote
Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.

LOL.  You're so into Gamaliel that you pass over his student:

Quote
Galatians 1 (RSV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Exactly how much benefit of the doubt do you want?  Your St Bernadette says her Lady called herself the Immaculate Conception (not "I am/was immaculately conceived" but "I am the Immaculate Conception").  You inform us of that vision.  Our official response is along the lines of "The Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox teaching, so we cannot agree that that message is of divine origin".  If the Lady told St Bernadette "My son is dead, he lived to be 75 and had children with that Mary of Magdala, and your maternal grandfather is a direct descendent", would the RC's really give it any more benefit of the doubt than we did in the first example?  Don't be silly.    

Now, some go a little further and, identifying the Immaculate Conception as heretical, assign its origins to the demonic.  I don't know that I feel comfortable saying so outright, but they have a point: what/who is the origin of heresy?  One of the Matins antiphons on 15 August in the old Roman Breviary addresses the Mother of God, saying "Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, thou hast trampled down all the heresies in the whole world"...it's probably safe to say that heresy does not come from God.  Then?  Even if it is of human origin alone, it is false and is used to deceive people and lead them away from the Truth.  That is the work of the demons.  So it's not like it's an absolutely extreme nonsensical view.  Again, we start from the faith and go forward, we don't start with visions and read backward.      

How about Muhammad's ascension to heaven: should we give it the same benefit of the doubt?

You're childish


No, he's not.  He's applying your logic to other "private revelations" claimed by others.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2013, 11:33:33 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?

I rather like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Faustina Kowalska (especially the Divine Mercy chaplet). Although, I wouldn't exactly say I have a "devotion" to them even if I might be inclined to say a short prayer to St. Francis, or on the rare occasion pray the DM chaplet.

And overall I take a rather agnostic stance on visions, or at least ones that contradict Orthodoxy. I suppose the visionary may have transmitted the vision wrong (misrecalling, pressure, influence, assumptions, etc.) even if the base vision did in fact happen.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2013, 11:42:37 PM »
The Divine Mercy chaplet

 ::)

"As often as you hear the clock strike the third hour immerse yourself completely in My mercy, adoring and glorifying it, invoke its omnipotence for the whole world, and particularly for poor sinners, for at that moment mercy was opened wide for every soul."


Offline Nephi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2013, 11:51:47 PM »
The Divine Mercy chaplet

 ::)

"As often as you hear the clock strike the third hour immerse yourself completely in My mercy, adoring and glorifying it, invoke its omnipotence for the whole world, and particularly for poor sinners, for at that moment mercy was opened wide for every soul."



Not sure what you're getting at, but you should note that I specified the "chaplet."

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2013, 12:01:02 AM »
The Divine Mercy chaplet

 ::)

"As often as you hear the clock strike the third hour immerse yourself completely in My mercy, adoring and glorifying it, invoke its omnipotence for the whole world, and particularly for poor sinners, for at that moment mercy was opened wide for every soul."

Not sure what you're getting at, but you should note that I specified the "chaplet."

Which "Jesus" recommended to Sr. Faustina to pray at the third hour, in order to take "a spiritual bath" in his mercy or something.

I guess it trumps them canonical hours. 

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2013, 12:03:07 AM »
Which "Jesus" recommended to Sr. Faustina to pray at the third hour, in order to take "a spiritual bath" in his mercy or something.

I guess it trumps them canonical hours. 

Anything has trumped the canonical hours in RCism for centuries.  I won't criticise "Jesus" too much for that.  :P
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2013, 12:06:07 AM »
Which "Jesus" recommended to Sr. Faustina to pray at the third hour, in order to take "a spiritual bath" in his mercy or something.

I guess it trumps them canonical hours. 

Anything has trumped the canonical hours in RCism for centuries.  I won't criticise "Jesus" too much for that.  :P

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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2013, 12:07:37 AM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2013, 12:17:05 AM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

Apparently, he's this whimsical lover of many a Western nun who keeps talking to them in visions and reveals how exactly he is to be pleased. See the revelations of St. Brigitta, the devotion to the Sacred Heart, the Divine Mercy chaplet, and so on and so on.

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2013, 12:18:38 AM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

Apparently, he's this whimsical lover of many a Western nun who keeps talking to them in visions and reveals how exactly he is to be pleased. See the revelations of St. Brigitta, the devotion to the Sacred Heart, the Divine Mercy chaplet, and so on and so on.

I suppose this answers the OP's question. :-X
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 12:20:35 AM by lovesupreme »

Offline Nephi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2013, 12:33:51 AM »
The Divine Mercy chaplet

 ::)

"As often as you hear the clock strike the third hour immerse yourself completely in My mercy, adoring and glorifying it, invoke its omnipotence for the whole world, and particularly for poor sinners, for at that moment mercy was opened wide for every soul."

Not sure what you're getting at, but you should note that I specified the "chaplet."

Which "Jesus" recommended to Sr. Faustina to pray at the third hour, in order to take "a spiritual bath" in his mercy or something.

I guess it trumps them canonical hours.  

Anyone reading her diary can easily see that her visions are contrary to Orthodox belief, but that doesn't mean the chaplet isn't a nice prayer (IMO it is, but others can feel free to disagree). Again, I specified the "chaplet" (as in the specific set of prayers set on a rope) and not "Divine Mercy" in general (including the visions' claims about said chaplet).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 12:35:40 AM by Nephi »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2013, 12:41:54 AM »
"Well maybeee theology" LOL that's not my position either. Are you blatantly not listening to what I'm saying?

I am reading what you write and paying attention when you write things like this:

Quote
there is always this possibility as you don't know the true origins of the doctrine and neither did they know the origin of Christs power over demons.

In addition to going back to your inappropriate analogy between the miracles of Christ and your own false RC doctrines, it sure has heck does sound like "well, maybe..." ("there's always a possibility that etc"). Whereas I provided a solid example of why we don't work that way -- we know, from the Fathers who received the true Christian faith and doctrine from the apostles and their holy disciples, what is proper and what is not. We do not have to say "Well, maybe we don't really know...we'd best leave the Latins to come up with whatever thing they can think of, because who can say where its origins truly lie?" We know many of them lie in private revelations, and such were not enough to exonerate Montanus, to echo my earlier point, nor Muhammad, to echo Isa's (which is absolutely germane to the conversation; it is ridiculous that you should brush it off so casually).

Quote
e.g. Islam is not true. It contradicts the Catholic faith. Its heresy. Is it from Satan ? I don't know and won't pretend to know. All I know is the truth revealed to me and it contradicts this truth.

And that is all that really needs to be said regarding the false Roman doctrines that separate your church from Orthodoxy, too. That others may say more is within their rights as a matter of emphasizing what heresy there is out there masquerading as true Christian doctrine, so that people don't walk away with the impression that the false teachings of the RCC are somehow just another expression of Christianity or whatever (and not, y'know, wrong). Our fathers were no less bold in opposing heresies of the past, were they not? "Athansius contra mundum" and all that. That's Orthodoxy. Now that doesn't mean that we need to go around telling every Roman Catholic or whoever that they're heretics, but rather that we should not admit any innovation for the sake of appeasing a non-Orthodox person's sense that to definitely condemn a doctrine would be going to far. If that's what is necessary, given the situation, that's just what we'll do.

Quote
How is that "well maybeee..." theology. There is not even a hint of the possibility of me accepting Islam so there's no "maybe" or "give it the benefit of the doubt".

I don't see why not, as a Muslim very well could argue as you have argued, that there is a possibility that you do not know the true roots of their revelation or doctrine, so where would you get off rejecting it?

Quote
You're being unnecessarily argumentative WOW

Not really. I don't in fact even feel like arguing about any particular piece of Roman Catholic doctrine. I know what is true and what is false, and have accepted which is which in council with a particular church and attendant theological, ecclesiological, Christological, etc. tradition that is much larger, older, and deeper than I could ever hope to be. I don't need to wonder about what if the visions given to some French teenager 400 years ago, bringing some new piece of theology that is against the preexisting Orthodox faith, could some how be true, and maybe I'm just not seeing it. That's ludicrous. Even if I don't say that it is from demons (because what would be the point of that, from my perspective? I do not even acknowledge it; it could be from Mars, for all I know), I do know that it does not come from the Apostles, from the Fathers, or from any other teachers in the faith. So that's enough for me. It's good not to pry too much into things, you know? Being Orthodox is hard enough without wondering about the non-Orthodox.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 12:44:50 AM by dzheremi »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2013, 12:46:53 AM »
Anyone reading her diary can easily see that her visions are contrary to Orthodox belief, but that doesn't mean the chaplet isn't a nice prayer (IMO it is, but others can feel free to disagree). Again, I specified the "chaplet" (as in the specific set of prayers set on a rope) and not "Divine Mercy" in general (including the visions' claims about said chaplet).

So you don't want to rescue any deceased relatives from Purgatory, nor make sure that you've confessed and received the Eucharist before you die, thereby heading straight to heaven? Ok.

Prayers are not just beautiful compositions. It does matter who wrote/recommends them and under what circumstances. Otherwise, I suppose the Mahamrityunjaya and Gayatri mantras are kinda nice.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2013, 12:51:17 AM »
Anyone reading her diary can easily see that her visions are contrary to Orthodox belief, but that doesn't mean the chaplet isn't a nice prayer (IMO it is, but others can feel free to disagree). Again, I specified the "chaplet" (as in the specific set of prayers set on a rope) and not "Divine Mercy" in general (including the visions' claims about said chaplet).

So you don't want to rescue any deceased relatives from Purgatory, nor make sure that you've confessed and received the Eucharist before you die, thereby heading straight to heaven? Ok.

Prayers are not just beautiful compositions. It does matter who wrote/recommends them and under what circumstances. Otherwise, I suppose the Mahamrityunjaya and Gayatri mantras are kinda nice.

Ok. ;)

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2013, 07:03:19 AM »
I like Bernard of Clairvaux (but not the idea that he was breastfed by the Theotokos). And William of St. Thierry.  :)




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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2013, 07:15:59 AM »
There may be some saints because God can save anyone. And there may be some visions as God do miracles to everyone.
Yet that does not mean Catholics are right because then Islam would also be right.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2013, 07:38:07 AM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

Shall we be lukewarm?

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2013, 09:19:40 AM »
Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

If you don't believe these peasant girls then by all means dismiss their claims. But don't go claiming,its from Satan now. As you saw the pharasies did that and look how that turned out :P

Are you serious? Listen to yourself. There is truth and there is falsehood - is that extreme, in your opinion? These visions or revelations or whatever are either true or false. If it's not true (and contrary to the Faith), then it is false. It is a lie or delusion or deception. We know who is the Father of Lies, do we not?
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2013, 09:34:38 AM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2013, 09:48:04 AM »
You are reading things into what I said.

I overstated nothing. What's similar is there is faction who believe themselves the only source of truth and keepers of faith and there is an opposed who presents something they do not accept.

As a general principle, OK, but why pretend to be neutral when we are both Christians?  There's clearly a difference between the Jewish leadership's rejection of Christ and the Orthodox neutrality on/discouragement of belief in private revelations that are by all accounts entirely unnecessary to be a good Christian.  The Jewish priesthood believed they were basing their condemnation of Christ on their interpretation of the Scriptures (the "source" of truth).  But we believe that Christ himself is the Truth Incarnate, through whom and only through whom we properly understand the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.  And he clearly admitted as much when called on it in various ways in the Gospels.  We don't give the Jews the benefit of the doubt on that matter: the Jewish leadership largely rejected him, but the entire people did not reject him.  As St Paul says about humans in general in Romans 1, "they are without excuse".  All of that is public revelation.  It is of the substance of Christian faith.  Why be neutral about it?  Are you an adherent of the Jesus Seminar or something?  There's no justification for being neutral unless you're straining to make a ridiculous comparison between us and the Sanhedrin.    

Our acceptance or rejection of Western spiritual phenomena is based on the Orthodox faith and what is in accordance with it.  If a RC has a vision which promotes a RC belief that Orthodox regard as erroneous (if not outright heretical) in terms of the publicly revealed Orthodox faith, what should the Orthodox believe about it?  If an Orthodox has a vision which rejects papal infallibility, what will you or the Vatican have to say about that?  Will they say "we should give it the benefit of the doubt because you never know"?  Or will they say "no vision that comes from God would contradict our faith" and reject it outright?  They did the latter with such visions as those of Veronica Leuken in Bayside, NY.  They were judged to be contrary to RC faith and/or morals, and condemned.  All we are applying is the same principle.  You just don't like it because we're not jumping on your preferred bandwagon.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe there was something supernatural and "of God" in Lourdes and Fatima; I believe that because I trust the basic story and I know the positive effect their messages of increased prayer and penance have had on myself and others.  I don't have all the answers regarding how to account for things like Our Lady's identification as "the Immaculate Conception", I have some ideas of why things may have happened the way they did that don't involve Satan, but it's all just a hunch.  I don't claim it as the Church's opinion, it's just mine, and I'm willing to accept correction if I'm wrong.  But I don't pretend for one minute that "Immaculate Conception", as RCs believe it, is an Orthodox doctrine, or that it (or other "revelations" that give credence to RC beliefs or practices) may be more Orthodox than I thought because someone claimed a vision confirmed it for them.  That's ludicrous.  No one is required to believe any of these things.  So again and again, we return to the substance of the faith.

Quote
Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.

LOL.  You're so into Gamaliel that you pass over his student:

Quote
Galatians 1 (RSV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
That's fine. The issue is not correct doctrine like I said. The issue is ascribing origins to certain teachings.
Are you deliberately not listening to anything I said?

how much benefit of the doubt do you want?  Your St Bernadette says her Lady called herself the Immaculate Conception (not "I am/was immaculately conceived" but "I am the Immaculate Conception").  You inform us of that vision.  Our official response is along the lines of "The Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox teaching, so we cannot agree that that message is of divine origin".  If the Lady told St Bernadette "My son is dead, he lived to be 75 and had children with that Mary of Magdala, and your maternal grandfather is a direct descendent", would the RC's really give it any more benefit of the doubt than we did in the first example?  Don't be silly.    

Now, some go a little further and, identifying the Immaculate Conception as heretical, assign its origins to the demonic.  I don't know that I feel comfortable saying so outright, but they have a point: what/who is the origin of heresy?  One of the Matins antiphons on 15 August in the old Roman Breviary addresses the Mother of God, saying "Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, thou hast trampled down all the heresies in the whole world"...it's probably safe to say that heresy does not come from God.  Then?  Even if it is of human origin alone, it is false and is used to deceive people and lead them away from the Truth.  That is the work of the demons.  So it's not like it's an absolutely extreme nonsensical view.  Again, we start from the faith and go forward, we don't start with visions and read backward.      

How about Muhammad's ascension to heaven: should we give it the same benefit of the doubt?

You're childish


No, he's not.  He's applying your logic to other "private revelations" claimed by others.

Not my logic at all. Rather what he and you misunderstood to be my logic...
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2013, 09:55:19 AM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol  ::) NO!

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the benefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox

It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:05:40 AM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2013, 09:59:52 AM »
Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

If you don't believe these peasant girls then by all means dismiss their claims. But don't go claiming,its from Satan now. As you saw the pharasies did that and look how that turned out :P

Are you serious? Listen to yourself. There is truth and there is falsehood - is that extreme, in your opinion? These visions or revelations or whatever are either true or false. If it's not true (and contrary to the Faith), then it is false. It is a lie or delusion or deception. We know who is the Father of Lies, do we not?

So too the pharasies thought. But who is the father delusion? Or mental dementia? Or psychological problems? Satan too? Because what if this is really a product of psychosis rather than diabolical deception? A hallucination which was thought to be vision but was in fact all in their heads? Then clearly its not from Satan but from a human natural mental disorder that God has given this person in his infinite wisdom for whatever reason.

NOTE : This is meant to be understood universally and apply to all claimed apparitions visions

All I'm saying is there is a right way to reject teachings and a wrong way.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:03:36 AM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2013, 10:01:49 AM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

Shall we be lukewarm?
I wouldn't recommend it.
"And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: 'The words of the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of God's creation. "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth."
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2013, 10:04:00 AM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.
It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
Not so simple when someone is attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its angelic or from God.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:06:51 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2013, 10:06:36 AM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.

That's perfectly ok
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2013, 10:11:36 AM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.
It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
Not so simple when someone is attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its angelic or from God.
Still as simple. You reject it as it doesn't conform to what you've been taught by your church. Leave it at that. You're just being difficult
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:12:23 AM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2013, 11:00:07 AM »
Sometimes it is not enough to personally reject something you know to be wrong. I've posted several times in other threads about a recent situation in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church wherein one of their archbishops in the Midwest USA disciplined a priest for teaching against the Immaculate Conception doctrine, as it is not a part of Orthodox tradition. Without strong condemnation (in tandem with teaching and reinforcing true Orthodox doctrine among the people), the errant archbishop would probably still be teaching and acting wrongly concerning this issue. When heresies begin creeping into your church, you have to be able to deal with them (that particular situation was dealt with by appeal to Alexandria, after finding no help from the relevant Ethiopian ecclesiastical authorities), not just say "well, I don't personally believe it since I don't recognize it as part of our tradition." It is precisely because it is not part of the apostolic faith, but that some are trying to present it as such, that we are even having the conversations we're having in this thread.

Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not observe them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2013, 11:08:21 AM »
Sometimes it is not enough to personally reject something you know to be wrong. I've posted several times in other threads about a recent situation in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church wherein one of their archbishops in the Midwest USA disciplined a priest for teaching against the Immaculate Conception doctrine, as it is not a part of Orthodox tradition. Without strong condemnation (in tandem with teaching and reinforcing true Orthodox doctrine among the people), the errant archbishop would probably still be teaching and acting wrongly concerning this issue. When heresies begin creeping into your church, you have to be able to deal with them (that particular situation was dealt with by appeal to Alexandria, after finding no help from the relevant Ethiopian ecclesiastical authorities), not just say "well, I don't personally believe it since I don't recognize it as part of our tradition." It is precisely because it is not part of the apostolic faith, but that some are trying to present it as such, that we are even having the conversations we're having in this thread.

That's fine

You can still firmly condemn and reprimand someone without having to say "What you teach if from Satan!". It is enough to forbid them from doing such and tell them that it is heresy and why. That is all I'm saying

Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not observe them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

True, but you are within your rights to do so
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2013, 11:23:27 AM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...

« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:54:06 AM by Romaios »

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2013, 11:41:04 AM »
That's fine

You can still firmly condemn and reprimand someone without having to say "What you teach if from Satan!". It is enough to forbid them from doing such and tell them that it is heresy and why. That is all I'm saying

It is good enough that St. Paul himself warned against the arrival and popularity of what he called the "doctrines of demons" in the form of false teachings that would arise in the Church (1 Timothy). Should he have toned it down a bit? I don't think so. It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it. So please don't then turn around and tell me that it is somehow inappropriate as a matter of principle to condemn these false teachings as strongly as they are asserted. If you teach what we know to be false and misleading and faith-destroying as somehow being from God, then who has committed the greater offense: Us for having offended you by pointing out that you are following the father of all lies in affirming that which distorts the apostolic faith, or you by actually doing so, and ascribing to God or His angels or His mother all kinds of novelty?

I know already that you will be unhappy reading this, and probably maintain that this is an unfair depiction of Roman Catholicism, and I'm being unreasonable/extremist or whatever, but...well, you did ask for our opinions on these matters. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not interested in placating anyone. The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.


Quote
Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not observe them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

True, but you are within your rights to do so

That is the most interesting thing...a little illustration of what is wrong with Rome in an everyday, micro-level sense, if you will. While you can with regularity tune into the Roman Catholic television station EWTN and find these things being celebrated and expounded upon at great length (all to the detriment of traditional practices, such as praying the hours), eh...if you don't want to believe in them, you don't have to. And the Latins wonder why so many are nominally Catholic only. Sad. These false pseudo-spiritualities have all but replaced the authentic (pre-Schism) tradition of Western Christianity, but hey, at least you don't have to actually believe them, even if the rest of your church does, so it's fine.

Nope. No believer is an island. It hurts everyone when such falsehoods are embraced, and retreating into your own personal cove of acceptable beliefs does not do anything to change the sad situation in which many find themselves. This is how we end up isolated from the churches of our birth, as the faith that once nourished our forefathers is pushed aside in favor of a half-believed in novelty rooted in heresies of the type that the Orthodox pillars of the Church, East and West, once fought valiantly against. But, hey, as Rome shows, you don't have to believe in what they upheld, either...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:51:16 AM by dzheremi »

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2013, 12:07:16 PM »
That's fine

You can still firmly condemn and reprimand someone without having to say "What you teach if from Satan!". It is enough to forbid them from doing such and tell them that it is heresy and why. That is all I'm saying

It is good enough that St. Paul himself warned against the arrival and popularity of what he called the "doctrines of demons" in the form of false teachings that would arise in the Church (1 Timothy). Should he have toned it down a bit? I don't think so. It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it. So please don't then turn around and tell me that it is somehow inappropriate as a matter of principle to condemn these false teachings as strongly as they are asserted. If you teach what we know to be false and misleading and faith-destroying as somehow being from God, then who has committed the greater offense: Us for having offended you by pointing out that you are following the father of all lies in affirming that which distorts the apostolic faith, or you by actually doing so, and ascribing to God or His angels or His mother all kinds of novelty?

I know already that you will be unhappy reading this, and probably maintain that this is an unfair depiction of Roman Catholicism, and I'm being unreasonable/extremist or whatever, but...well, you did ask for our opinions on these matters. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not interested in placating anyone. The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.


Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not
 them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

True, but you are within your rights to do so
[/quote]

Former Orthodoxy? Rome is forever Orthodox :)
I'll leave you with this :

Quote
John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible."

St. Maximus of Constantinople :

"They have not conformed to the sense of the Apostolic see, and what is laughable, or rather lamentable, as proving their ignorance, they have not hesitated to lie against the Apostolic see itself . . . but have claimed the great Honorius on their side. . . . What did the divine Honorius do, and after him the aged Severinus, and John who followed him? Yet further, what supplication has the blessed pope, who now sits, not made? Have not the whole East and West brought their tears, laments, obsecrations, deprecations, both before God in prayer and before men in their letters? If the Roman see recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus, anathematizes the see of Rome that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he be in communion with the Roman see and the Church of God.... It is not right that one who has been condemned and cast out by the Apostolic see of the city of Rome for his wrong opinions should be named with any kind of honour, until he be received by her, having returned to her — nay, to our Lord — by a pious confession and orthodox faith, by which he can receive holiness and the title of holy.... Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman see, for if it is satisfied all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed pope of the most holy Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic see, which from the incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by all holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions, has received universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the holy Churches of God which are in the whole world for with it the Word who is above the celestial powers binds and looses in heaven also. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by the law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him."

Now I as the norm  here in gonna get accused of incorrect context and proof texting (even though the context is evident and the words are clear ::) ) so let me leave it at that.
Anyway I see we have gotten to the point of speaking past each other. I made a point about how to reject and I'm gonna leave it at that.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #91 on: August 28, 2013, 12:16:19 PM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #92 on: August 28, 2013, 12:19:04 PM »
That's fine

You can still firmly condemn and reprimand someone without having to say "What you teach if from Satan!". It is enough to forbid them from doing such and tell them that it is heresy and why. That is all I'm saying

It is good enough that St. Paul himself warned against the arrival and popularity of what he called the "doctrines of demons" in the form of false teachings that would arise in the Church (1 Timothy). Should he have toned it down a bit? I don't think so. It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it. So please don't then turn around and tell me that it is somehow inappropriate as a matter of principle to condemn these false teachings as strongly as they are asserted. If you teach what we know to be false and misleading and faith-destroying as somehow being from God, then who has committed the greater offense: Us for having offended you by pointing out that you are following the father of all lies in affirming that which distorts the apostolic faith, or you by actually doing so, and ascribing to God or His angels or His mother all kinds of novelty?

I know already that you will be unhappy reading this, and probably maintain that this is an unfair depiction of Roman Catholicism, and I'm being unreasonable/extremist or whatever, but...well, you did ask for our opinions on these matters. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not interested in placating anyone. The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.


Quote
Incidentally, when I was Roman Catholic myself, I disbelieved in this vision business (never said a novena in my life), and I can say that it is really not as simple as being free to reject these things. You are certainly free to not observe them, but openly rejecting them, particularly the most popular/well-known (e.g., Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) effectively puts you out of the RC mainstream.

True, but you are within your rights to do so

That is the most interesting thing...a little illustration of what is wrong with Rome in an everyday, micro-level sense, if you will. While you can with regularity tune into the Roman Catholic television station EWTN and find these things being celebrated and expounded upon at great length (all to the detriment of traditional practices, such as praying the hours), eh...if you don't want to believe in them, you don't have to. And the Latins wonder why so many are nominally Catholic only. Sad. These false pseudo-spiritualities have all but replaced the authentic (pre-Schism) tradition of Western Christianity, but hey, at least you don't have to actually believe them, even if the rest of your church does, so it's fine.

Nope. No believer is an island. It hurts everyone when such falsehoods are embraced, and retreating into your own personal cove of acceptable beliefs does not do anything to change the sad situation in which many find themselves. This is how we end up isolated from the churches of our birth, as the faith that once nourished our forefathers is pushed aside in favor of a half-believed in novelty rooted in heresies of the type that the Orthodox pillars of the Church, East and West, once fought valiantly against. But, hey, as Rome shows, you don't have to believe in what they upheld, either...

Look man I made my point and I'm gonna leave it at that.

 As regards to Romes "former orthodoxy"... Rome is forever orthodox :angel:

Quote
John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. it is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible.'"

Source: "The Eastern Churches and the Papacy", S. Herbert Scott, London: Sheed & Ward, 1928. Pg. 359 (emphasis mine)

St Maximus The Confessor of Constantinople:

"they have not conformed to the sense of the Apostolic see, and what is laughable, or rather lamentable, as proving their ignorance, they have not hesitated to lie against the Apostolic see itself . . . but have claimed the great Honorius on their side. . . . What did the divine Honorius do, and after him the aged Severinus, and John who followed him? Yet further, what supplication has the blessed pope, who now sits, not made? Have not the whole East and West brought their tears, laments, obsecrations, deprecations, both before God in prayer and before men in their letters? If the Roman see recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus, anathematizes the see of Rome that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he be in communion with the Roman see and the Church of God.... It is not right that one who has been condemned and cast out by the Apostolic see of the city of Rome for his wrong opinions should be named with any kind of honour, until he be received by her, having returned to her — nay, to our Lord — by a pious confession and orthodox faith, by which he can receive holiness and the title of holy.... Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman see, for if it is satisfied all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed pope of the most holy Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic see, which from the incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by all holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions, has received universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the holy Churches of God which are in the whole world — for with it the Word who is above the celestial powers binds and looses in heaven also. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by the law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him."

Now I know , as is the norm here for any quote supporting Rome  ::), I'm gonna be accused of taking these quotes out of context (even though the context is evident and words are clear as day) and proof texting. So let me leave it at that and get back to the thread topic.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 12:21:08 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #93 on: August 28, 2013, 12:24:46 PM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.

Oh you mean that Hebrew named Yeshua? 8)
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #94 on: August 28, 2013, 12:31:44 PM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.

Oh you mean that Hebrew named Yeshua? 8)

 :DSuch a common name at the time like saying "You know, George that white guy." :laugh:  But yes, you know who I'm talking about.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #95 on: August 28, 2013, 12:49:22 PM »
This is the sort of thread that makes me want to chuck it all and become a Methodist.  8)
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #96 on: August 28, 2013, 01:04:00 PM »
I know...that painting is just terrible, isn't it?

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #97 on: August 28, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »
Who is this "Jesus"? Is he honored in the West for having had a vision?

The ethnic Middle Eastern Jesus.

No. You see, he's usually blond and blue-eyed...



Sup, J.C.  That's my homie, we grew up together.  I didn't meet Jesus, the Son of the Living God, until much later.

Oh you mean that Hebrew named Yeshua? 8)

 :DSuch a common name at the time like saying "You know, George that white guy." :laugh:  But yes, you know who I'm talking about.

Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes :)
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2013, 01:09:58 PM »
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2013, 01:12:39 PM »


LOL  that most certainly is not Jesus. Isn't that what National Geographic said Jesus looked like though?
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #100 on: August 28, 2013, 01:15:17 PM »
Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes :)

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  :P 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 01:16:18 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #101 on: August 28, 2013, 01:22:45 PM »


LOL  that most certainly is not Jesus. Isn't that what National Geographic said Jesus looked like though?

 :D I saw this picture years ago, and it popped up on the tv and scared me.

(I was young, though, so...)
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #102 on: August 28, 2013, 01:23:13 PM »

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #103 on: August 28, 2013, 01:24:45 PM »
Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes :)

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  :P  

hahahaha
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 01:27:45 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #104 on: August 28, 2013, 01:26:50 PM »
Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes :)

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  :P 

Lol Very slow! I think they want to be more realistic about how Jesus looked.
The Oreintal Orthodox on the other hand... They have had Black Jesus for centuries. They didn't waste time! :D

I wonder if there is a Philippino Jesus
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2013, 01:28:56 PM »
"We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable."
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2013, 01:32:47 PM »
There were good straightening products back in the day.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2013, 01:46:57 PM »
Oh Btw Jesus in my church is depicted with brown hair and brown eyes :)

You mean he's not black yet?! RC inculturation must be going slow, soft and sloppy in Africa these days.  :P 

Lol Very slow! I think they want to be more realistic about how Jesus looked.
The Oreintal Orthodox on the other hand... They have had Black Jesus for centuries. They didn't waste time! :D

I wonder if there is a Philippino Jesus

They don't really do icons, but they do have stuff like this:



Not just Filipino Jesus, but Filipino lady Jesus.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2013, 02:29:11 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.
It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
Not so simple when someone is attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its angelic or from God.
Still as simple. You reject it as it doesn't conform to what you've been taught by your church. Leave it at that. You're just being difficult
I try to be as difficult to falsehood as possible.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2013, 02:32:10 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the best nefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox
yes, ignore them.
It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)
Not so simple when someone is attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its angelic or from God.
Still as simple. You reject it as it doesn't conform to what you've been taught by your church. Leave it at that. You're just being difficult
I try to be as difficult to falsehood as possible.
;)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2013, 02:39:35 PM »
It is not a matter of a simple difference of opinion, as though we are each free to have our own interpretations of what the faith is and what it isn't - particularly as Rome has elevated what was once a matter of private theological opinion to the level of dogma, requiring assent from all believers who are in communion with it.
Amen!
The faith is not a game, and we do not give out trophies for getting it whatever percent right. The fact that Rome has added all kinds of nonsense to its formerly Orthodox faith makes it impossible for me to consider its inventions as somehow equally fine alternatives to the faith whole and preserved, such as you will find only in the Orthodox Church. And what could be strong enough to draw the venerable and formerly Orthodox Church of Rome away from its apostolic foundations? You might not call it Satan, but certainly deviations from the truth do not come from God, as God is not the author of error or confusion.
Amen!
While you can with regularity tune into the Roman Catholic television station EWTN and find these things being celebrated and expounded upon at great length (all to the detriment of traditional practices, such as praying the hours), eh...if you don't want to believe in them, you don't have to. And the Latins wonder why so many are nominally Catholic only. Sad. These false pseudo-spiritualities have all but replaced the authentic (pre-Schism) tradition of Western Christianity, but hey, at least you don't have to actually believe them, even if the rest of your church does, so it's fine.
Amen!
Nope. No believer is an island. It hurts everyone when such falsehoods are embraced, and retreating into your own personal cove of acceptable beliefs does not do anything to change the sad situation in which many find themselves. This is how we end up isolated from the churches of our birth, as the faith that once nourished our forefathers is pushed aside in favor of a half-believed in novelty rooted in heresies of the type that the Orthodox pillars of the Church, East and West, once fought valiantly against. But, hey, as Rome shows, you don't have to believe in what they upheld, either...
You see through the visionaries so clearly!

The fact remains, the whole cult of visionaries pops up in the West only post schism (although the first millenium did not lack visions, nor does the East lack them now), and the strange practices and cults they promoted find no roots in the first millenium Church-somewhere recently I saw a something from Pope St. Athanasius condemning what is akin to the Sacred Heart (can't find it now).
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2013, 02:50:00 PM »
Didn't I quote that in this thread? Or maybe just alluded to it. It is from St. Athanasius' Epistula ad Adelphium (c.370), wherein it is written:

Quote
We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of
God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2013, 03:42:32 PM »
So the Orthodox don't believe in Western Apparitions. I think We will survive and so will they.  :D
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 03:42:40 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2013, 04:14:01 PM »
I don't venerate Catholic Saints but I can certainly respect them. I recall reading The Way by Josemaria Escriva before my conversion. I found it quite nice.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #114 on: August 28, 2013, 05:09:22 PM »
So the Orthodox don't believe in Western Apparitions. I think We will survive and so will they.  :D

One of my friends asked me to take a look at Leary's visitations and locutions.

In addition to prophecies that never came true, there was an overwhelming amount of politics in the words coming out of "Christ's" mouth. That to me raises a huge red flag. How could his Roman Catholic confessor approve such messages?

Reference: John Leary, Prepare for the Great Tribulation and the Era of Peace: Volume IX, Queenship Publishing. 1998.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
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ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline theistgal

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #115 on: August 28, 2013, 07:39:04 PM »
This is the sort of thread that makes me want to chuck it all and become a Methodist.  8)

I know...that painting is just terrible, isn't it?

Not the painting - the thread!!   ::)
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #116 on: August 28, 2013, 07:41:36 PM »
That's fine. The issue is not correct doctrine like I said. The issue is ascribing origins to certain teachings.
Are you deliberately not listening to anything I said?

No, I am listening.  But I think you are too sensitive to anything approximating criticism of Roman Catholicism.  

If a Western vision teaches a "doctrine" which is manifestly un-Orthodox, we would reserve the right, if asked about it, to say it is heretical.  You don't seem to have a problem with that.  Your problem is with going beyond that to say that it is demonic in origin.  

If it is human in origin, then nothing "supernatural" happened even though such was claimed.  And yet, if it still deceives people and leads them astray from the truth, who benefits from that?  Not God, and not people.  Who else is there but the minions of hell?  

If, however, the visions are in fact supernatural in origin, and yet teach obviously heretical doctrines, that's definitely not coming from God (who is Truth) or from people (who are not supernatural).  Who else is left?  Gazelles?  

Look, I'm content to say "X is not Orthodox" and leave it at that.  But if someone else wants to go further, it's not like there's no justification for it whatsoever.  You bring up Gamaliel's policy on such matters, but what you neglect to mention is that the nascent Christian movement of his time was not considered to be a separate religion from Judaism, and the Jews themselves were not united in their opinion of it.  That's very different from "What do the Orthodox think of Lourdes?"  A lot more has been solidified.          

Quote
Not my logic at all. Rather what he and you misunderstood to be my logic...

Maybe you could try it again.  Because multiple people here seem to have understood it the way I did.  And accusing everyone who disagrees with you of extremism isn't going to cut it.  I'm far from anti-Catholic: if you want evidence, read my posts here over the last decade.        
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Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #117 on: September 08, 2013, 04:42:42 AM »
I don't think Jesus was brown/black. Apostle Luke who painted him white. Anyway Jesus now can apepar in whatever color He like. To some people He ahs apepared with brown hair and to other with blond. ;)
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #118 on: September 08, 2013, 06:19:56 AM »
I don't think Jesus was brown/black. Apostle Luke who painted him white. Anyway Jesus now can apepar in whatever color He like. To some people He ahs apepared with brown hair and to other with blond. ;)

 ::)


Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #119 on: September 08, 2013, 09:22:23 AM »
You don't believe me? Would it be ahrd for Christ to appear in any color  ???
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #120 on: September 08, 2013, 09:46:39 AM »
You don't believe me? Would it be ahrd for Christ to appear in any color  ???

I believe many people have a rich imagination. 

Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #121 on: September 08, 2013, 09:49:00 AM »
Why is ahrd for you to believe? God can do anything... Monk Paisios himself have seen Jesus as blond.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2013, 10:37:06 AM »
Why is ahrd for you to believe? God can do anything... Monk Paisios himself have seen Jesus as blond.

Platinum, more likely:

Quote from: Revelation 1:14
His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2013, 01:29:07 PM »
That's fine. The issue is not correct doctrine like I said. The issue is ascribing origins to certain teachings.
Are you deliberately not listening to anything I said?

No, I am listening.  But I think you are too sensitive to anything approximating criticism of Roman Catholicism.  

If a Western vision teaches a "doctrine" which is manifestly un-Orthodox, we would reserve the right, if asked about it, to say it is heretical.  You don't seem to have a problem with that.  Your problem is with going beyond that to say that it is demonic in origin.  

If it is human in origin, then nothing "supernatural" happened even though such was claimed.  And yet, if it still deceives people and leads them astray from the truth, who benefits from that?  Not God, and not people.  Who else is there but the minions of hell?  

If, however, the visions are in fact supernatural in origin, and yet teach obviously heretical doctrines, that's definitely not coming from God (who is Truth) or from people (who are not supernatural).  Who else is left?  Gazelles?  

Look, I'm content to say "X is not Orthodox" and leave it at that.  But if someone else wants to go further, it's not like there's no justification for it whatsoever.  You bring up Gamaliel's policy on such matters, but what you neglect to mention is that the nascent Christian movement of his time was not considered to be a separate religion from Judaism, and the Jews themselves were not united in their opinion of it.  That's very different from "What do the Orthodox think of Lourdes?"  A lot more has been solidified.          

Quote
Not my logic at all. Rather what he and you misunderstood to be my logic...

Maybe you could try it again.  Because multiple people here seem to have understood it the way I did.  And accusing everyone who disagrees with you of extremism isn't going to cut it.  I'm far from anti-Catholic: if you want evidence, read my posts here over the last decade.        
This.

If we know as Orthodox the source does not come from God, and if the Ultramontanists deny their human origin, that doesn't leave much else in the way of origins.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2013, 01:41:48 PM »
You are reading things into what I said.

I overstated nothing. What's similar is there is faction who believe themselves the only source of truth and keepers of faith and there is an opposed who presents something they do not accept.

As a general principle, OK, but why pretend to be neutral when we are both Christians?  There's clearly a difference between the Jewish leadership's rejection of Christ and the Orthodox neutrality on/discouragement of belief in private revelations that are by all accounts entirely unnecessary to be a good Christian.  The Jewish priesthood believed they were basing their condemnation of Christ on their interpretation of the Scriptures (the "source" of truth).  But we believe that Christ himself is the Truth Incarnate, through whom and only through whom we properly understand the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.  And he clearly admitted as much when called on it in various ways in the Gospels.  We don't give the Jews the benefit of the doubt on that matter: the Jewish leadership largely rejected him, but the entire people did not reject him.  As St Paul says about humans in general in Romans 1, "they are without excuse".  All of that is public revelation.  It is of the substance of Christian faith.  Why be neutral about it?  Are you an adherent of the Jesus Seminar or something?  There's no justification for being neutral unless you're straining to make a ridiculous comparison between us and the Sanhedrin.    

Our acceptance or rejection of Western spiritual phenomena is based on the Orthodox faith and what is in accordance with it.  If a RC has a vision which promotes a RC belief that Orthodox regard as erroneous (if not outright heretical) in terms of the publicly revealed Orthodox faith, what should the Orthodox believe about it?  If an Orthodox has a vision which rejects papal infallibility, what will you or the Vatican have to say about that?  Will they say "we should give it the benefit of the doubt because you never know"?  Or will they say "no vision that comes from God would contradict our faith" and reject it outright?  They did the latter with such visions as those of Veronica Leuken in Bayside, NY.  They were judged to be contrary to RC faith and/or morals, and condemned.  All we are applying is the same principle.  You just don't like it because we're not jumping on your preferred bandwagon.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe there was something supernatural and "of God" in Lourdes and Fatima; I believe that because I trust the basic story and I know the positive effect their messages of increased prayer and penance have had on myself and others.  I don't have all the answers regarding how to account for things like Our Lady's identification as "the Immaculate Conception", I have some ideas of why things may have happened the way they did that don't involve Satan, but it's all just a hunch.  I don't claim it as the Church's opinion, it's just mine, and I'm willing to accept correction if I'm wrong.  But I don't pretend for one minute that "Immaculate Conception", as RCs believe it, is an Orthodox doctrine, or that it (or other "revelations" that give credence to RC beliefs or practices) may be more Orthodox than I thought because someone claimed a vision confirmed it for them.  That's ludicrous.  No one is required to believe any of these things.  So again and again, we return to the substance of the faith.

Quote
Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.

LOL.  You're so into Gamaliel that you pass over his student:

Quote
Galatians 1 (RSV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Exactly how much benefit of the doubt do you want?  Your St Bernadette says her Lady called herself the Immaculate Conception (not "I am/was immaculately conceived" but "I am the Immaculate Conception").  You inform us of that vision.  Our official response is along the lines of "The Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox teaching, so we cannot agree that that message is of divine origin".  If the Lady told St Bernadette "My son is dead, he lived to be 75 and had children with that Mary of Magdala, and your maternal grandfather is a direct descendent", would the RC's really give it any more benefit of the doubt than we did in the first example?  Don't be silly.    

Now, some go a little further and, identifying the Immaculate Conception as heretical, assign its origins to the demonic.  I don't know that I feel comfortable saying so outright, but they have a point: what/who is the origin of heresy?  One of the Matins antiphons on 15 August in the old Roman Breviary addresses the Mother of God, saying "Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, thou hast trampled down all the heresies in the whole world"...it's probably safe to say that heresy does not come from God.  Then?  Even if it is of human origin alone, it is false and is used to deceive people and lead them away from the Truth.  That is the work of the demons.  So it's not like it's an absolutely extreme nonsensical view.  Again, we start from the faith and go forward, we don't start with visions and read backward.      

How about Muhammad's ascension to heaven: should we give it the same benefit of the doubt?

You're childish


No, he's not.  He's applying your logic to other "private revelations" claimed by others.

I was going to weigh in, but I couldn't add to this. I agree with Mor.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2013, 01:52:23 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol


Shall we be lukewarm?

FACEPALM lol  ::) NO!

You like many others clearly don't recognize what two extremes I'm talking about which is causing so much confusion

The one extreme is rejecting it and calling it of satan
The other is giving them the benefit of the doubt

This is how you guys apparently see things from what I get from your posts and interpretation of my posts.

I advocate neither position. There is a middle ground you know? Which is perfectly orthodox

It is : Simple rejection of teachings that contradict what you believe to be true and leaving it at that ( without attempting to ascribe origins of the teaching like saying its demonic or from Satan)

I'm quite content to ascribe teachings  and visions to human frailty and view them erroneous when they are contrary to the teachings of my Church. Neither your nor my church views human beings as chess pieces in a never ending game between God and the Devil. Hence, I have no need to reflexively view those I regard as being in error - and usually (as I believe) only partly so - as "Demonic."  "Wrong" works well enough for me.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #126 on: September 08, 2013, 02:43:41 PM »
Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.

LOL.  You're so into Gamaliel that you pass over his student:

Quote
Galatians 1 (RSV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Exactly how much benefit of the doubt do you want?  Your St Bernadette says her Lady called herself the Immaculate Conception (not "I am/was immaculately conceived" but "I am the Immaculate Conception").  You inform us of that vision.  Our official response is along the lines of "The Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox teaching, so we cannot agree that that message is of divine origin".  If the Lady told St Bernadette "My son is dead, he lived to be 75 and had children with that Mary of Magdala, and your maternal grandfather is a direct descendent", would the RC's really give it any more benefit of the doubt than we did in the first example?  Don't be silly.    
I'm sorry I missed this post.  Thanks podkarpatska!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth