Author Topic: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries  (Read 6929 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« on: August 27, 2013, 03:33:01 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
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Offline mike

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 03:35:11 PM »
I personally do not care.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 03:40:57 PM »
Not sure about devotions per se, or which visions people might think of here. I certainly respect non-Orthodox people and have considered them helpful in my "life in Christ." I suppose I haven't really given it much thought, however, as I feel like I've barely scratched the surface of the pre-schism eastern writers, and haven't had much time to deal with large chunks of other periods and areas.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 03:43:59 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

This vision prompted Pope Leo to compose the prayer of St.Michael

« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:46:12 PM by Wandile »
"We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable."
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Offline Papist

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 03:45:14 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will


I think the answer to the "Immactualte Conception" one is easy. They don't believe it.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 03:49:40 PM »
None. No.  Although I do find some interesting:  St Bruno and St John of the Cross.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 04:03:19 PM »
None. No.  Although I do find some interesting:  St Bruno and St John of the Cross.

Why those two?  :)
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 04:12:08 PM »
Saints, perhaps, visions, no.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 04:16:35 PM »
No disrespect but there are so many Saints known to Orthodoxy, including pre-schism Western ones, that I never dwell on them.


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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 04:23:40 PM »
None. No.  Although I do find some interesting:  St Bruno and St John of the Cross.

Why those two?  :)

I have been going back to my fascination with the Carthusian order in th RCC.  St Bruno being called to the "desert" to pursue a closer relationship with God is not unlike many of the earlier monastics.  When you look at how the Carthusians have maintained their traditions, I think it's very commendable.  It was a topic of conversation that popped up with a hieromonk I know and he said that, for the most part, they're the closest thing to Orthodoxy there is in the Western church.

St John of the Cross is interesting.  I can identify on one level being of Spanish and Jewish descent myself as he was.  His efforts to reform the Carmelite order led to his imprisonment and torture.  He continued his writings, including the poem Cantico Espiriual, which is beautiful in and of itself, but when you know what a scholar John was, take a second look.  It's as close to the Song of Solomon as you can find.

So, I can respect these two men and their work for their church.  I do not recognize them as saints nor venerate them, but I add their titles because they are recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 04:30:25 PM »
I have a lot of respect for the attitude that St Francis of Assisi and St Therese of Lisieux promoted, but no devotion for them. They're up there with Gandhi: sterling people, but no saints.
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 04:30:50 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

This vision prompted Pope Leo to compose the prayer of St.Michael



Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2013, 04:38:52 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?

I would not want to publicly venerate someone who has not been glorified by a church with which my bishop is in communion.  But I would be dishonest if I did not acknowledge the obvious hand of God on the lives of certain such people, that the Holy Spirit moves where it wills, and that we might be very surprised to see who is in paradise at the end.  Now I cannot privately judge anyone's sainthood, which is what that would be doing.  I think that if reunion occurs some cases would be automatic but others would take discernment.  In some cases glorification might be recognized on the basis of a saints life, not his or her teachings.  In other cases visions, if accepted, would have to be theologically reinterpreted.  For now, I know where the truth is found in its fullness and there I shall remain. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 04:43:19 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
As far as I care, I have problems with "visionaries," whether they agree with Orthodoxy or not.

No devotions to 11th century saints in the West, unless they were in communion with the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 04:45:23 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Dogma ex machina.  ::)

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2013, 04:52:06 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

This vision prompted Pope Leo to compose the prayer of St.Michael



Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.

Strong opinion... Be careful of what you say though
"We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable."
-St. Bernard of Clairvaux


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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2013, 04:54:36 PM »
Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

The Pontiff had just finished reading the first chapter of Job. Then he wondered: How would all this sound with a twist of aggiornamento?


« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 04:55:53 PM by Romaios »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2013, 04:54:58 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
As far as I care, I have problems with "visionaries," whether they agree with Orthodoxy or not.

No devotions to 11th century saints in the West, unless they were in communion with the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.

Do you at least admire certain Catholic saints e.g. St.Francis of Assisi, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa etc ?  :)
"We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable."
-St. Bernard of Clairvaux


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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2013, 04:56:43 PM »
Or Pope Leo XIII who had a vision of a discourse between Satan and God which read :

Quote
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."
The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
Satan : "To do so, I need more time and more power."
Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?
Satan : "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over  to my service."
Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

The Pontiff had just finished reading the first chapter of Job. Then he wondered: How would all this sound with a little aggiornamento?




LOL  :D nice

Factually though, he had just finished saying mass and was about to leave the Altar. The vision happened right then
"We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable."
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2013, 05:06:31 PM »
They don't really have anything to do with the Orthodox Church or its faith, so I can't say I care very much about them one way or another. Surely we have more than enough of our own saints to focus on and learn from. I would rather listen to the syanxarium being read in the Church than wonder about any outside of it. As for any particular RC vision or visionary, I don't particularly care for the way such things are approached in the West. If we read the Desert Fathers, for instance, there are many to whom extraordinary events did occur (such as St. Bishoy, the patron of our church here in Albuquerque, who is famous for having washed the feet of Christ, and for having carried Him in the form an old man), yet the overall message is never to seek out such things ourselves, let alone to accept them as sources of dogma, establishing some practice or teaching, as Roman Catholics seem to (e.g., the various novenas and other practices originating with visions claimed by this or that person, to say nothing of even more problematic declarations from "St. Mary"; I would steer clear from any such thing, whether it is claimed to come from Orthodox or non-Orthodox people).

While it's presented in a somewhat childish way (sadly fitting the CYC ethos, from what I have seen), I will have to agree with Fr. Mauritius Anba Bishoy when he says that a faith based on miracles is not a mature faith.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:08:24 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2013, 05:08:06 PM »
Factually though, he had just finished saying mass and was about to leave the Altar. The vision happened right then

Sure. Exordium in excelsis.

"I Leo (Vicar of the Son of God, Servant of the servants of the Lord, Patriarch of the West, etc. etc.) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a guttural voice, saying:..."
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:13:56 PM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 05:15:27 PM »
To start things. What is your opinion of the apparition of St.Bernadette at Lourdes where Mary is quoted as saying "I am the Immaculate conception"

Dogma ex machina.  ::)
Pretty much, although that is tame compared to its fruit, Maximillian Kolbe's quasi-incarnation of the Imaculata.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 05:18:41 PM »
This is a very open debate/discussion topic

What is your (An Easterner) position on certain Catholic saints and mystics who claim to have certain visions that trouble the Orthodox position.

Do any of you easterners (Both Catholic and Orthodox) have devotions to any wester saints of the post schism Catholic Church?
As far as I care, I have problems with "visionaries," whether they agree with Orthodoxy or not.

No devotions to 11th century saints in the West, unless they were in communion with the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.

Do you at least admire certain Catholic saints e.g. St.Francis of Assisi, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa etc ?  :)
Sure.  Btw, I meant to say "after the 11th century."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2013, 05:19:29 PM »
Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.

Strong opinion... Be careful of what you say though

If you're asking an Orthodox about Lourdes, and the Immaculate Conception is part and parcel of this apparition, why should he be careful of judging it to be demonic deception?  After all, it is not an Orthodox teaching, so obviously it's not coming from God.  

According to my understanding of the Roman Catholic Church's position on these matters, no one need believe in any "private revelations", even if they have some level of ecclesiastical approval (and it is a rather apophatic approval at that).  You can disregard them all, even if the messages are not contrary to the faith.  If they are contrary to the faith, all the more reason to dismiss them.  

The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2013, 05:21:59 PM »
I like Bernard of Clairvaux (but not the idea that he was breastfed by the Theotokos). And William of St. Thierry.  :)


« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:28:40 PM by Romaios »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »
Demonic deception, since heresy is being promoted.

Strong opinion... Be careful of what you say though

If you're asking an Orthodox about Lourdes, and the Immaculate Conception is part and parcel of this apparition, why should he be careful of judging it to be demonic deception?  After all, it is not an Orthodox teaching, so obviously it's not coming from God.
 

This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

Hence my caution of using such strong words. Does the Orthodox Church officially condemn Immaculate conception or is that just the majority opinion among Orthodox with no official condemnation?

According to my understanding of the Roman Catholic Church's position on these matters, no one need believe in any "private revelations", even if they have some level of ecclesiastical approval (and it is a rather apophatic approval at that).  You can disregard them all, even if the messages are not contrary to the faith.  If they are contrary to the faith, all the more reason to dismiss them.  

The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                

Care to name these feasts? :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:30:57 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 05:37:18 PM »
The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                 

Care to name these feasts? :)

Corpus Christi

Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Immaculate Heart of Mary

Our Lady of Lourdes (February 11)

Our Lady of Guadalupe (December 12)

Stigmata of St. Francis (September 17)

etc.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:48:27 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 05:38:38 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

Quote
Hence my caution of using such strong words. Does the Orthodox Church officially condemn Immaculate conception or is that just the majority opinion among Orthodox with no official condemnation?

There must be a thread about this, look it up there.

Quote
Care to name these feasts? :)

Well, off the top of my head, the feasts of the Sacred Heart of Jesus (Friday after Corpus Christi), the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Saturday after Corpus Christi), Our Lady of Lourdes (11 February), Our Lady of Mount Carmel (16 July), Our Lady of the Rosary (7 October), and Our Lady of Guadalupe (12 December...at least for the Americas).  Maybe there are others, but my books are packed away.      
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 05:40:54 PM »
Stigmata of St. Francis (September 14)

Actually, I think this is 17 September.  But it is not on the reformed general calendar, which brings up another point.  The "EF" calendar has more of these devotional feasts than the "OF", even if the major ones are shared. 

Forgot about that one as well as Corpus Christi's origins in private revelation...thanks! 
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »
The strong, devoted faith that certain types of RC's put in such experiences and the people who claim to have them, as if they were a parallel source of revelation and magisterial authority, troubles me more than even some of the visions themselves.  And the "official" Church bears part of the blame for that.  On the one hand, they don't require the acceptance of private revelations, but on the other hand feasts commemorating some of these visions or the devotions they promote are placed on the universal liturgical calendar, requiring that they are accepted in some way by the Church.                

Care to name these feasts? :)

Corpus Christi

Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Immaculate Heart of Mary

Our Lady of Lourdes (February 11)

Our Lady of Guadalupe (December 12)

Stigmata of St. Francis (September 14)

etc.


Aaaaahhhh I see
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 05:43:05 PM »
Stigmata of St. Francis (September 14)

Actually, I think this is 17 September.  But it is not on the reformed general calendar, which brings up another point.  The "EF" calendar has more of these devotional feasts than the "OF", even if the major ones are shared. 

It used to be until the post Vatican II revision of the general Roman Calendar. IIRC the Franciscans retain it.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 05:44:30 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This kind of thinking would be shocking or scandalous if it weren't so normal among many Catholics, Rome's official policy of agnosticism towards any particular vision notwithstanding.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 05:45:13 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:51:22 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 05:46:44 PM »
I wonder how many others are preserved by the various orders?  

Anyway, even on the reformed general Roman calendar there are enough of these feasts such that the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi comes into conflict with the non-necessity of belief in private revelations.  It's rather bizarre, and contributes to the problem of the "parallel magisterium of seers".  
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 05:55:17 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.

I understood what you were trying to convey, but you overstated your case.  What Christ did is different from what Bernadette did.  You can't just act as if our rejection of RC private revelations is the same as the Jews' rejection of Christ without inviting the sort of comment I made.  Or, if it is merely an innocuous example of a general principle of "giving something the benefit of the doubt", then it is really useless.  You could give just about anything the benefit of the doubt.

Again, the overstating of the case is common to RC's who run after seers.  No RC is required to believe in Fatima, and yet the way some of them talk, every ill in the world is the result of the Pope not consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  I wish your Church would just pick one.  Either these are binding on the faithful, or they are not.  But don't say "They are not binding on the faithful" and then impose them through the back door.       
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 05:59:18 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.
we don't need it to be revealed: we can judge on its contradiction with the True Faith.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2013, 05:59:36 PM »
I wonder how many others are preserved by the various orders?  

The Cistercians never had a feast of the Lactatio Bernardi - kudos to them for that!  :P
 

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.

I understood what you were trying to convey, but you overstated your case.  What Christ did is different from what Bernadette did.  You can't just act as if our rejection of RC private revelations is the same as the Jews' rejection of Christ without inviting the sort of comment I made.  Or, if it is merely an innocuous example of a general principle of "giving something the benefit of the doubt", then it is really useless.  You could give just about anything the benefit of the doubt.

Again, the overstating of the case is common to RC's who run after seers.  No RC is required to believe in Fatima, and yet the way some of them talk, every ill in the world is the result of the Pope not consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  I wish your Church would just pick one.  Either these are binding on the faithful, or they are not.  But don't say "They are not binding on the faithful" and then impose them through the back door.        

You are reading things into what I said.

I overstated nothing. What's similar is there is faction who believe themselves the only source of truth and keepers of faith and there is an opposed who presents something they do not accept. Its one thing to dismiss what is being presented. It is entirely another to say it has its origins from Satan. This is certainly against giving every claim the benefit of the doubt. Its ok to dismiss and leave it at that. Its another to take it one step further and claim demonic,origins of what is being presented as you will be in a lot of trouble if what is presented is actually from God.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:10:53 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2013, 06:06:45 PM »
This is how the Chief Priests thought also. Seeing Jesus perform exorcisms and miracles outside of their own, they were quick to condemn its as the work of Satan for if it was not from them( The keepers of faith appointed by God) who ,other than Satan, could it be from?

Alas! They found themselves blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Rejecting truths prematurely, before they were revealed to them.

So Lourdes is equal to the death and resurrection of Christ.  Got it.   :-\  

This is why I said the parallel magisterium of seers worries me more than the phenomena themselves.

This is deliberately off base and  you know this.

I was only addressing the incident Christ performing exorcisms in front of the Jewish Priests who condemned it as from Satan because it was not from them.
And they were actually wrong and blasphemed God in the process.

Moral of the of the story is watch your words and do not be so quick to dismiss things not revealed to you yet  as of Satan.
we don't need it to be revealed: we can judge on its contradiction with the True Faith.

If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2013, 06:13:46 PM »
If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception

Some of our greatest Saints and Elders considered Western mystics to be the victims of demonic delusion. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov especially, in his book On prelest dwells on this subject.

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-is-spiritual-delusion 

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2013, 06:17:38 PM »
If it is not in line (as far as what you know about what has been revealed) with what you believe to be true them by all means dismiss it. However don't go a step further and attempt to ascribe origins to the doctrine like the pharasies did. That is my contention with the other poster saying IC is a demonic deception

Some of our greatest Saints and Elders considered Western mystics to be the victims of demonic delusion. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov especially, in his book On prelest dwells on this subject.

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-is-spiritual-delusion 

I know and these elders were fallible and emotional human beings. Ever heard of Gamiliel's test?
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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2013, 06:23:02 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2013, 06:26:33 PM »
I know and these elders were fallible and emotional human beings. Ever heard of Gamiliel's test?

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind would dismiss their authority - no more than you would be willing to give up reverence for Western mystics and visionaries or doubt the Magisterium of your own Church.

Rav Gamliel's test had nothing to do with visions and private ecstasies. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:29:41 PM by Romaios »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2013, 06:27:44 PM »
Truly the fathers, ancient and modern, are fallible human beings, but I question whether this means that we should all therefore give 14-year-old French peasant girls and the like the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their supposed visions.

Where do you all get this "Give them the benefit of the doubt" from what I said? You guys are very extreme people. Its either one extreme or the other lol

If you don't believe these peasant girls then by all means dismiss their claims. But don't go claiming,its from Satan now. As you saw the pharasies did that and look how that turned out :P
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:29:55 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Eastern opinion of Western Saints and Visionaries
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2013, 06:28:59 PM »
I know and these elders were fallible and emotional human beings. Ever heard of Gamiliel's test?

No Orthodox Christian in his right mind would dismiss their authority - no more than you would be willing to give up reverence for Western mystics and visionaries.

Rav Gamliel's test had nothing to do with visions and private ecstasies.  

Yes but the wisdom of the principle is universal and can be applied. Since you know of it, use it
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