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Author Topic: Roman vs. Eastern  (Read 2553 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alpo
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« on: August 27, 2013, 01:58:02 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:58:54 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 02:10:07 PM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 02:15:25 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 03:14:49 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.
While I am not officially a Byzantine a Byzantine Parish Exclusively.

Here are my reasons:
1. I am just sick to death of liturgical problems in the Latin Church. I want to go where God is being worshiped most reverently, and that happens to be in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Some will say this is a bad reason to attend a Byzantine Church, and I understand their reasons. However, I have to go where the Catholic faith is best practiced.
2. I love the Divine Liturgy; it's absolutely beautiful.
3. I love the small parish in Albuquerque. It feels like a home.
4. I really appreciate the Byzantine approach to theology, the sacraments, the afterlife, etc.

Oh, and does it feel different? Well, I'm not sure. I am still loving and worshiping the same Christ.
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 03:36:02 PM »

4. I really appreciate the Byzantine approach to theology, the sacraments, the afterlife, etc.

In your opinion, what is the Byzantine approach to theology?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:36:17 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 03:48:10 PM »

4. I really appreciate the Byzantine approach to theology, the sacraments, the afterlife, etc.

In your opinion, what is the Byzantine approach to theology?
Leaving things more to mystery, less of need to define and systematize, etc. As a person who struggles with scrupulocity/OCD, this approach is spiritually refreshing.
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 06:01:25 PM »

BTW, The possibility of officially switching from the Roman to the Ruthenian Church is always in the back of my mind.
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 08:17:08 PM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox
I am evidence that that is not the case.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 08:26:09 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 09:35:59 PM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox
I am evidence that that is not the case.  Smiley
The True Church has always had its apostates and wolves in sheep clothing.  I'm keeping my eye on you, wolf!  Grin
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 10:32:45 PM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox

This "in between church" aka The Eastern Catholic Church was originally formed to act as a bridge of union between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but as it turns out for many, this bridge is a means to walk from one discipline to another.
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 07:09:15 AM »

This "in between church" aka The Eastern Catholic Church was originally formed to act as a bridge of union between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy,

What?
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 11:10:04 AM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox
I am evidence that that is not the case.  Smiley
The True Church has always had its apostates and wolves in sheep clothing.  I'm keeping my eye on you, wolf!  Grin
Cheesy I'm one of those dangerous "Romans," "Communicants of the Vatican," "Vaticanists," etc. You can never be too careful with us.  Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2013, 11:10:59 AM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
This is an excellent point. Wherever the Latin mass is celebrated, it is loved. We have one here in town that I have attended on occasion.
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 11:15:56 AM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
This is an excellent point. Wherever the Latin mass is celebrated, it is loved. We have one here in town that I have attended on occasion.

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh
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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 11:28:26 AM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
This is an excellent point. Wherever the Latin mass is celebrated, it is loved. We have one here in town that I have attended on occasion.

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh
I always thought that rather than creating the NO, Rome should have simply translated the TLM into the venacular. But who whom am I to tell Rome what to do?  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 12:44:48 PM »

I'm both roman and eastern, i'm Romanian Orthodox. Keep trying to be like us  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 12:49:57 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
This is an excellent point. Wherever the Latin mass is celebrated, it is loved. We have one here in town that I have attended on occasion.

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh
I always thought that rather than creating the NO, Rome should have simply translated the TLM into the venacular. But who whom am I to tell Rome what to do?  Grin
But that would make too much sense!  Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 01:09:35 PM »

I'm both roman and eastern, i'm Romanian Orthodox. Keep trying to be like us  Grin

More roman than the actual citizens of the actual city of Rome who belong to Church of actual Rome? Cool
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 01:30:38 PM »

I'm both roman and eastern, i'm Romanian Orthodox. Keep trying to be like us  Grin

More roman than the actual citizens of the actual city of Rome who belong to Church of actual Rome? Cool
 Tongue

Yes, most of them are immigrants from Napoli. But even so they are more romans than us, we are much more eastern than them. So in the end, we're the best  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 01:41:46 PM »

You live in Naples? I'm jealous of you. St. Januarius is my patron. Please light a candle for me next time you visit his relics.
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 01:52:41 PM »

You live in Naples? I'm jealous of you. St. Januarius is my patron. Please light a candle for me next time you visit his relics.

Gunnar?
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 01:58:15 PM »

You live in Naples? I'm jealous of you. St. Januarius is my patron. Please light a candle for me next time you visit his relics.

Gunnar?

Wut?
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 02:01:06 PM »

You live in Naples? I'm jealous of you. St. Januarius is my patron. Please light a candle for me next time you visit his relics.

No, unfortunately not, i live close to Paris, but being a supporter of U Craiova, we have some friendship towards Napoli and so my nickname  Cheesy
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 02:02:13 PM »

You live in Naples? I'm jealous of you. St. Januarius is my patron. Please light a candle for me next time you visit his relics.

Gunnar?

Wut?

Gunnar ~ Gennaro, but the actual Italian equivalent would be Gonario.
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« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 02:10:10 PM »

No, my name is not Gunnar if that's what you assumed. Not even close. I'm not a Swede nor a Swedish-speaking Finn
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« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2013, 02:14:35 PM »

No, my name is not Gunnar if that's what you assumed. Not even close. I'm not a Swede nor a Swedish-speaking Finn

Huh
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« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 02:16:14 PM »

No, my name is not Gunnar if that's what you assumed. Not even close. I'm not a Swede nor a Swedish-speaking Finn

Huh

Just thought Romaios might be assuming that my civilian name is some Gennaro derivate.
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« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 02:41:37 PM »

No, my name is not Gunnar if that's what you assumed. Not even close. I'm not a Swede nor a Swedish-speaking Finn

Huh

Just thought Romaios might be assuming that my civilian name is some Gennaro derivate.

Sorry - I guess I touched a sensitive national nerve.  Sad

Maybe your birthday is on April 21st or September 19th then?  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 03:03:03 PM »

No, my name is not Gunnar if that's what you assumed. Not even close. I'm not a Swede nor a Swedish-speaking Finn

Huh

Just thought Romaios might be assuming that my civilian name is some Gennaro derivate.

Sorry - I guess I touched a sensitive national nerve.  Sad

Maybe your birthday is on April 21st or September 19th then?  Smiley

I'm not sure if I have any sensitive national nerve.  Cheesy

Neither. "Januarius" just happens to remotely resemble my civilian name. Might have something to do with etymology or just sounding similar. I don't exactly understand Finnish logic of choosing Patrons for converts but there is a certain list of civilian male and female names and suitable Patron Saints whose names might be resembling the civilian names. So for example if your name happens to be Matti your Patron Saint will be Matteus i.e. St. Matthew the Apostle.
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 07:13:02 PM »

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh

Tell that to these guys:




http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/08/solemn-pontifical-mass-of-nigerian.html#.Uh6FymTwIZJ

It's not like it was the post-Vatican II Church which evangelised Africa for Roman Catholicism.  RCism in Africa "caught on" when it was all Latin all the time.  Latin wasn't an obstacle at the beginning.  If it is an obstacle now, it's more than simply a matter of language.     
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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 08:10:38 PM »

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh

Tell that to these guys:




http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/08/solemn-pontifical-mass-of-nigerian.html#.Uh6FymTwIZJ

It's not like it was the post-Vatican II Church which evangelised Africa for Roman Catholicism.  RCism in Africa "caught on" when it was all Latin all the time.  Latin wasn't an obstacle at the beginning.  If it is an obstacle now, it's more than simply a matter of language.     
Awesomness. 
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2013, 08:15:34 PM »

^ But you can see how that African bishop still needs his Latin teacher to assist him.  Grin
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »

^ But you can see how that African bishop still needs his Latin teacher to assist him.  Grin

I presumed he was functioning more as a rubricist than a Latin teacher, but who knows?  Tongue
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2013, 12:27:41 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
This is an excellent point. Wherever the Latin mass is celebrated, it is loved. We have one here in town that I have attended on occasion.

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh
I always thought that rather than creating the NO, Rome should have simply translated the TLM into the venacular. But who whom am I to tell Rome what to do?  Grin
But that would make too much sense!  Cheesy
And too much sense would confound and thwart the devil, so.....
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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2013, 01:44:38 PM »

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh

Tell that to these guys:




http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/08/solemn-pontifical-mass-of-nigerian.html#.Uh6FymTwIZJ

It's not like it was the post-Vatican II Church which evangelised Africa for Roman Catholicism.  RCism in Africa "caught on" when it was all Latin all the time.  Latin wasn't an obstacle at the beginning.  If it is an obstacle now, it's more than simply a matter of language.      

Catholicism boomed in Africa and is continually growing at astounding rates ever since Vernacular was introduced. That says something.
Back when Latin was used most of the Catholics in Africa were white people who were confortable. There were some parishes with black congregations although that was the execption. Vernacular allowed people to see Catholicism and understand it.

How odd it would be for people in KwaZulu Natal to have a Zulu priest and Zulu congregation (who can barely speak English) have a black Zulu speaking Latin. Trust me vernacular is the way to go.
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2013, 01:50:01 PM »

I'm both roman and eastern, i'm Romanian Orthodox. Keep trying to be like us  Grin

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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2013, 01:54:06 PM »

How odd it would be for people in KwaZulu Natal to have a Zulu priest and Zulu congregation (who can barely speak English) have a black Zulu speaking Latin. Trust me vernacular is the way to go.

It is just as odd to have Indians speaking Latin, or Indians celebrating the Syriac Liturgy in Latin with cut-and-paste additions from the Roman Mass, but your Popes didn't agree. 

Though I have my suspicions about the rest of your post, I'll take you at your word. 
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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2013, 02:57:10 PM »

Back when Latin was used most of the Catholics in Africa were white people who were confortable. There were some parishes with black congregations although that was the execption.

Rome used to be much more explicit regarding its colonial ties and intentions for the Africans; witness, for instance the "White Fathers", originally based in Algiers. (Note the nice little bit of PR maneuvering in the name change described at the above link; I guess "White Fathers" was a little bit too on the nose! Wink)

Quote
How odd it would be for people in KwaZulu Natal to have a Zulu priest and Zulu congregation (who can barely speak English) have a black Zulu speaking Latin. Trust me vernacular is the way to go.

I have various African "Misa" LPs from the 1960s (Missa Luba, Missa Bantu, Messe des Bayanzi, etc.), organized mostly by Belgian or French colonialist priests, which show perhaps admirable attempts to nativize the Latin liturgy (most still feature Latin, but have native drumming...an odd combo, if there ever was one). I quite enjoy the recordings of the monks of Keur Moussa in Senegal, for instance, which feature many native (Wolof) translations in addition to Latin hymns, as well as the kora and other native instruments. Still, I wonder exactly how "nativized" such experiments are, when they essentially translate the Latin mode of worship for another people, rather than creating/continuing a truly native way of worship. I mean, even comparing the aforementioned hymnody of the monks of Keur Moussa to paraliturgical Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo mezmur, it's kind of hard to miss which one is "Latin" in idiom (even if it is in Wolof) and which one is native to the people. It makes sense, when you think about it: One came with invaders and colonialists who imposed their religion on people, the other developed naturally by native African Christians who had been evangelized by shipwrecked Syriacs (so I doubt Abba Selama and Co. came with the power of colonializing Western governments behind them) and administered for centuries by the only apostolic church to be founded in Africa by an actual African (St. Mark was a Hellenized Libyan Jew).

We might wonder how much the above description relates to this overall topic. I've likewise seen videos of the Coptic Catholic Franciscans (including Coptic Catholic priests in their confusingly Byzantine vestments), Iraqi Dominicans, etc., so nothing would really surprise me at this point. Only Christ is all things to all people, but it seems like the Latins are doing their best to try to at least nativize their own (Latin) ways for other people. Doesn't really make them "Eastern", but that's not really a concern so much as the strange and foreign doctrines that come with accepting Latin domination in the first place (of which these more obvious outward changes are merely a sign, rather than the root of the problem).
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2013, 07:20:36 PM »

Apparently there are some folks who have switched from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism. Why did you made the switch? Does Easten Catholicism feel different to Roman Catholicism?

EDIT: Wut? Mods, please move this to the Catholic subforum.

I'm not Catholic, but they seemed quite different to me. For one example, the worship services I've been to in a Byzantine Catholic Church seemed much closer to Orthodox worship than Roman Catholic worship (the latter reminding me more of a solemn Protestant service). I would imagine the private prayers would also differ, but then I'm probably still too steeped in Orthodox practice to recognize much at this point...

With the resurgence of the Tridentine Mass I have a feeling people will be more apt to enjoy that than the Novus Ordo Mass.  I have watched some traditional mass videos and they are more similar to an Orthodox Liturgy than the Novus Ordo.  In fact, I like them, although I do not understand all of it.  I saw one video from 1941 (I think) which was attempting to explain the steps, but it was a poor quality video.
This is an excellent point. Wherever the Latin mass is celebrated, it is loved. We have one here in town that I have attended on occasion.

I am all for the Tridentine Mass if it can be said in the vernacular. Africans will not accept Latin lol. They will you and your Latin liturgy home  Grin  laugh
I always thought that rather than creating the NO, Rome should have simply translated the TLM into the venacular. But who whom am I to tell Rome what to do?  Grin

I believe that did actually happen a bit, just for 3 or 4 years, before the NO.
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2013, 07:24:06 PM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox

This "in between church" aka The Eastern Catholic Church was originally formed to act as a bridge of union between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but as it turns out for many, this bridge is a means to walk from one discipline to another.

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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2013, 09:12:42 PM »

It is because the Holy Spirit is inevitable drawing them to the Orthodox Church. EC tis but a passing phase to something more glorious.

#hyperdox

This "in between church" aka The Eastern Catholic Church was originally formed to act as a bridge of union between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but as it turns out for many, this bridge is a means to walk from one discipline to another.

"I was advised by a certain subdeacon that ALL Eastern Catholics should experience a draw toward Orthodoxy, or else something is wrong."
-Dr. Anthony Dragani
That was me.  But by draw I did not mean conversion, although if one's conscience prompts him to do so I find no fault in that.
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« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2013, 03:09:05 PM »

I'm both roman and eastern, i'm Romanian Orthodox. Keep trying to be like us  Grin

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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »

LOL^
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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2013, 03:52:24 PM »

I'm both roman and eastern, i'm Romanian Orthodox. Keep trying to be like us  Grin

More roman than the actual citizens of the actual city of Rome who belong to Church of actual Rome? Cool
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That poor fellow has his picture posted everywhere. If he ever made an account on this forum, I'm sure he would be quite alarmed.
at what?
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