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Author Topic: What is your opinion of Abp Lazar Puhalo?  (Read 10677 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2013, 11:28:03 PM »

Jah, it is my firm belief that Greece and the rest of the Orthodox in the more Greek/Byzantine tradition is what reflects true Orthodoxy. Slavic Churches are okay, but they tend towards fundamentalism and superstition.



Or, IOW:

It never ceases to amaze me when certain people who've joined the Orthodox Church little more than five minutes ago spout this sort of nonsense. Those of us who've been part of the Church for several decades, and actively so, across various jurisdictions and ethnicities, can only shake our heads at this hubris.
MOR!  How were you able to get a picture of my icon corner?  I feel violated.  Shocked
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« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2013, 12:30:07 AM »

MOR!  How were you able to get a picture of my icon corner?  I feel violated.  Shocked

You feel violated now?  Wait till you see the other photos I took in your home.  Wink
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« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2013, 12:37:54 AM »

MOR!  How were you able to get a picture of my icon corner?  I feel violated.  Shocked

You feel violated now?  Wait till you see the other photos I took in your home.  Wink

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh  laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:38:20 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2013, 01:05:59 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?
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« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2013, 01:10:58 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4 months though.

I've also been close to unsubbing from Fr. Gabriel Rochelle's. Anytime he gets on this stupidely ridiculous very pro-Judaism kicks, I just can't stand to listen to him.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 01:15:57 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2013, 01:13:17 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4-5 months though.

You made the allegation. It's your responsibility to back it up.
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« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2013, 01:13:42 AM »

Jah, it is my firm belief that Greece and the rest of the Orthodox in the more Greek/Byzantine tradition is what reflects true Orthodoxy. Slavic Churches are okay, but they tend towards fundamentalism and superstition.



Or, IOW:

It never ceases to amaze me when certain people who've joined the Orthodox Church little more than five minutes ago spout this sort of nonsense. Those of us who've been part of the Church for several decades, and actively so, across various jurisdictions and ethnicities, can only shake our heads at this hubris.
I remember a shop in the old Greek quarter here, "Athenian---" (I won't give the full name).  As someone said, "If anything is Orthodox there it's by mistake."
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #97 on: August 29, 2013, 01:19:20 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4-5 months though.

You made the allegation. It's your responsibility to back it up.

I made no allegation and have jack responsibility. I have an opinion that what he said on his podcast was stupid. I dont have to tell you what it was. I throw what he says away and forget about what he said and remember not to listen to him again. I don't have to remember why I stopped.

His contined participation at Monomakhos is reason enough to dismiss anything he says.
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« Reply #98 on: August 29, 2013, 01:24:11 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4-5 months though.

You made the allegation. It's your responsibility to back it up.

I made no allegation and have jack responsibility. I have an opinion that what he said on his podcast was stupid. I dont have to tell you what it was. I throw what he says away and forget about what he said and remember not to listen to him again. I don't have to remember why I stopped.

His contined participation at Monomakhos is reason enough to dismiss anything he says.

Yup, just as I suspected. You're all hat and no cattle.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #99 on: August 29, 2013, 01:33:07 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4-5 months though.

You made the allegation. It's your responsibility to back it up.

I made no allegation and have jack responsibility. I have an opinion that what he said on his podcast was stupid. I dont have to tell you what it was. I throw what he says away and forget about what he said and remember not to listen to him again. I don't have to remember why I stopped.

His contined participation at Monomakhos is reason enough to dismiss anything he says.

Yup, just as I suspected. You're all hat and no cattle.  Roll Eyes

I'd much rather have brains than brawn.

(And I realize that may not be what you were going for, I don't care)

As I said weeks ago, I'd rather spend an eternity in hell than have the version of Orthodoxy I've been taught be wrong, especially in versus fundamentodoxy.
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« Reply #100 on: August 29, 2013, 01:37:39 AM »


I'd much rather have brains than brawn.

(And I realize that may not be what you were going for, I don't care)

As I said weeks ago, I'd rather spend an eternity in hell than have the version of Orthodoxy I've been taught be wrong, especially in versus fundamentodoxy.

The neophyte who presumes to have more discernment and knowledge than us old crocks who have lived in the faith for two or three times longer than you've been alive ....  Roll Eyes

Any comment on the picture Mor posted? Or are you going to scurry away again?
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« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2013, 04:39:05 AM »

Superstition is endemic among not simply Slavic people, but in Greece and Romania too. Some Greeks hold that the Russian's are influenced by Catholic theology, citing Peter Moghila. As conservative or traditionalist attitudes may be found among Greeks as Russians too.

So I find 88Devin's comment's bear little relation to my considerably longer experience of both people's and their local churches and jurisdictions. And as to the brain over brawn reference in an Internet discussion, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Bear in mind that to former Chilean Catholic colleagues of mine, all Orthodox are fundamentalist and superstitous in their practice. Should I therefore come to the conclusion that perchance 88Devin's comment's may be evidence of a Western liberal Catholic influence in him? Horror!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 04:40:12 AM by Santagranddad » Logged
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« Reply #102 on: August 29, 2013, 06:51:46 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4-5 months though.

You made the allegation. It's your responsibility to back it up.

I made no allegation and have jack responsibility. I have an opinion that what he said on his podcast was stupid. I dont have to tell you what it was. I throw what he says away and forget about what he said and remember not to listen to him again. I don't have to remember why I stopped.

His contined participation at Monomakhos is reason enough to dismiss anything he says.

Yup, just as I suspected. You're all hat and no cattle.  Roll Eyes

I'd much rather have brains than brawn.

(And I realize that may not be what you were going for, I don't care)

As I said weeks ago, I'd rather spend an eternity in hell than have the version of Orthodoxy I've been taught be wrong, especially in versus fundamentodoxy.
Huh?  I tend to disregard anything after a person starts a statement with this.  That's pretty bold (no pun intended, seriously) for any person on earth to say.
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« Reply #103 on: August 29, 2013, 07:04:11 AM »

Quote
Fr. Josiah Trenham
he's clownish.

In what way?

A recent example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcS42gWhZ5w

The OrthodoxInfo site does have some good material, but its overall picture of Orthodoxy is distorted.

So his interviewing skills, enunciation, or mannerisms?  I've seen that interview and I think it's good, approaching an important subject.  Not seeing the clownishness. Huh

First clue: "The most important issue of our time."

You seem to be dismissing Father Josiah's position as clownish because he considers same-sex marriage to be "the most important issue of our time"? Why don't you argue your point instead of engaging in ad hominem? Look: how would you feel if I called you an "intestinal terminus" just because I disagreed with your opinion?

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
 
WOW! Considering the number of times you've been warned for such rudeness, one would think that you would have learned by now to avoid posting such puerile insults as this. For doing this yet again, you are now on Warned status for the next 99 days.

If you think this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

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« Reply #104 on: August 29, 2013, 07:16:42 AM »


I stopped listening to his podcast because of how he seems to advocate laypeople living like monks and how he's really conservative to a fault. His series on heterodox and heretical groups was good but that's about it.

I kind of wish AFR would drop him and Fr Patrick Henry Reardon, or at least have them only accept certain of their programs.
What's your beef with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Partially his participation and contributions over at Monomakhos, and also some of the stupid stuff he's said on his podcast.
Such as?

Im not going to go back and relisten to them to say what he said. It was in the last 4-5 months though.

You made the allegation. It's your responsibility to back it up.

I made no allegation and have jack responsibility. I have an opinion that what he said on his podcast was stupid. I dont have to tell you what it was. I throw what he says away and forget about what he said and remember not to listen to him again. I don't have to remember why I stopped.

Again, you have expressed a tremendous amount of disdain for respected priests and an entire jurisdiction, throwing around words like "fundamentalist" and other accusations without any adequate explanation for why you disdain and disregard these clergy and all of ROCOR.  If you are unable to back up or explain such disdainful comments then do not make them.  I think many of us are coming to the conclusion that it is you that needs to be disregarded. 
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« Reply #105 on: August 29, 2013, 08:49:37 AM »

I made no allegation and have jack responsibility. I have an opinion that what he said on his podcast was stupid. I dont have to tell you what it was. I throw what he says away and forget about what he said and remember not to listen to him again. I don't have to remember why I stopped.

His contined participation at Monomakhos is reason enough to dismiss anything he says.

As long as you realise that this could just as easily be directed towards you.  But unlike you, many of us have reasons for disagreeing with you and have given you those reasons, reasons with which you don't wish to engage.  That's fair.  All that is left now is to throw what you say away, forget about it, and remember not to listen to you.  That, and to dismiss you as an errant fool every time you post some absurdity that could be easily refuted by a googling six year old.  It may not matter to you, but there are people participating silently, and we wouldn't want them to think you were some sort of authority just because you're convinced of your own awesomeness.  You can comfort yourself with the thought that you are being persecuted for righteousness' sake if you want.   
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O Holy Mor Ephrem,
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #106 on: August 29, 2013, 09:02:02 AM »

Devin is the most anti-fundamentalist fundamentalist that I have come across in quite some time.
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« Reply #107 on: August 29, 2013, 09:15:52 AM »

As long as you realise that this could just as easily be directed towards you.  But unlike you, many of us have reasons for disagreeing with you and have given you those reasons, reasons with which you don't wish to engage.  That's fair.  All that is left now is to throw what you say away, forget about it, and remember not to listen to you.  That, and to dismiss you as an errant fool every time you post some absurdity that could be easily refuted by a googling six year old.  It may not matter to you, but there are people participating silently, and we wouldn't want them to think you were some sort of authority just because you're convinced of your own awesomeness.  You can comfort yourself with the thought that you are being persecuted for righteousness' sake if you want.    

POM nominee!!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:16:21 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #108 on: August 29, 2013, 11:09:06 AM »

The problems I have with ROCOR:

  • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
  • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
  • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
  • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
  • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
  • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
  • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
  • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.
  • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
  • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
  • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
  • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
  • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
  • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)
  • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.

That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 11:17:46 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
TheTrisagion
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« Reply #109 on: August 29, 2013, 11:14:52 AM »

The problems I have with ROCOR:

  • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
  • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
  • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
  • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
  • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
  • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
  • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
  • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.
  • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
  • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
  • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
  • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
  • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
  • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)

That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.

You are not helping your cause with that post.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 11:15:29 AM by TheTrisagion » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: August 29, 2013, 11:24:12 AM »

Jah, it is my firm belief that Greece and the rest of the Orthodox in the more Greek/Byzantine tradition is what reflects true Orthodoxy. Slavic Churches are okay, but they tend towards fundamentalism and superstition.

Or, IOW:

It never ceases to amaze me when certain people who've joined the Orthodox Church little more than five minutes ago spout this sort of nonsense. Those of us who've been part of the Church for several decades, and actively so, across various jurisdictions and ethnicities, can only shake our heads at this hubris.

It matters little what non-practicing, secular Orthodox of Greece do. Go into real Orthodox Bookstores in Greece, none of them have the "Evil Eye" token. Go to the practicing Orthodox, and look at their theology. ROCOR and many portions of Slavic Orthodoxy is just full of superstition, not just in lay life, but in Church life.

Don't look to the little kiosks of Athens that sell "icons" with the evil eye. Look to the Orthodox bookstores. Athens is a secular, rampantly un-Orthodox place compared to other parts of Greece.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 11:26:19 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: August 29, 2013, 11:26:52 AM »

Every time Devin posts, Matthew 23:15 pops into my head.  I don't know why.  Tongue
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« Reply #112 on: August 29, 2013, 11:43:40 AM »

The problems I have with ROCOR:

  • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
  • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
  • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
  • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
  • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
  • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
  • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
  • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.
  • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
  • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
  • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
  • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
  • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
  • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)

That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.

You are not helping your cause with that post.  Roll Eyes

So I actually respond with reasons as requested, and get criticized for it? Only on the internet...
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« Reply #113 on: August 29, 2013, 12:02:05 PM »

OK, I'll play along...

The problems I have with ROCOR:

  • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
Woop dee frickin' doo. Even though I do not agree with it, it is not wrong to believe that Creationism is correct and evolution is wrong.
  • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
If we wanted to go back to the Apostolic practice, we would confess to the entire congregation. Would that be preferable?
  • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
Following your spiritual father... the horrors!  Shocked
  • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
There is no dogma either way, again, I do not hold to that view, but I am not going to criticize those who do
  • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
They don't "oppose" scientific knowledge", they just dispute the conclusions that scientists come to.
  • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
Wait, so with confession, you don't want them to question tradition, but now you do?  Huh
  • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
There have been different schools of theological thought since the Church began, that doesn't make anyone illegitimate.
  • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.
See above.
  • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
Sorry if all things should be done orderly and not for your personal edification. 
  • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
They should be confessed.  Why not?
  • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
Who is to say that he didn't and they didn't?  Were you there?
  • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
Damn ROCOR, how dare they advocate prayer!  Something must be done about this.  Angry
  • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.

See above about different schools of thought.
  • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)

So you reject an entire branch of the Church because "some people" felt that the MP was without grace?
  • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.
The horrors.  Are the anathemas heretical?
[/list]

That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.
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« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2013, 12:24:42 PM »

      OK, I'll play along...

      The problems I have with ROCOR:

      • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
      Woop dee frickin' doo. Even though I do not agree with it, it is not wrong to believe that Creationism is correct and evolution is wrong.
      It may not be "wrong", but it makes them superstitious simpletons.

      • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
      If we wanted to go back to the Apostolic practice, we would confess to the entire congregation. Would that be preferable?
      That was dropped for practicality and confession to a single Priest. However, they didn't move to this idea of confession before every communion until people stopped regularly communing, which is absolutely wrong. We should regularly commune, and confess regularly (but not requiring it every week prior to Liturgy).

      • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
      Following your spiritual father... the horrors!
      No one has Fr. Seraphim Rose as a spiritual father, he's reposed.

      • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
      There is no dogma either way, again, I do not hold to that view, but I am not going to criticize those who do
      Just because something isn't dogma doesn't mean it's okay to believe whatever you want. It may not be "wrong" in terms of doctrine, but it makes them superstitious nuts.

      • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
      They don't "oppose" scientific knowledge", they just dispute the conclusions that scientists come to.
      No, they do oppose proven scientific and historic knowledge. They reject it just like conspiracy nuts reject the idea that Al Qaida attacked on 9/11, or the nuts who think the pyramids are somehow extraterrestrial structures beaming signals to space.

      • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
      Wait, so with confession, you don't want them to question tradition, but now you do?
      This is tradition vs. Tradition. They need to be willing and open to questioning tradition, not Tradition. Also, it depends on if the tradition is Apostolic or not. Historical scholarship can tell us what is truly apostolic and what isn't.

      • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
      There have been different schools of theological thought since the Church began, that doesn't make anyone illegitimate.
      It certainly does make them illegitimate because they reject fact and Orthodox teaching from men who are 100% Orthodox. They reject it because they themselves are fundamentalist, superstitious nuts.

      • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.
      See above.
      See above.

      • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
      Sorry if all things should be done orderly and not for your personal edification.
      Thank God we aren't Anglicans or Roman Catholics who often ask for liturgical rigor. We have freedom in liturgy, freedom of movement, an organized chaos, not an organized, regulated performance. If, as an altar server, I need to blow my nose, but the box of kleenex is on the other side of the altar, I can freely walk across to get it. If a Priest forgot a book during the service, he doesn't need to stay in front of the altar and can go over and get the book. If a layperson wants to cross themself at an unusual point, let them do it, they have freedom of expression during the Liturgy. If a layperson wants to light a candle at the manoualia and say a prayer at the front in the middle of the service, they have the freedom to do so without being rebuked.

      • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
      They should be confessed.  Why not?
      No they don't have to be confessed because they are not sins. They should be told to the Priest and worked out. But someone isn't sinning because they don't fast and don't pray. Not fasting and not praying doesn't harm your soul, it isn't a sin, but it also doesn't help you. As a Priest I know once said, it isn't a sin, it is only a missed opportunity.

      • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
      Who is to say that he didn't and they didn't?  Were you there?
      We know for a fact where the mountains where and have been. It is impossible for a mountain to move from one place to another without an absolutely violent earthquake that would destroy nearly everything around it and be felt nearly worldwide. God doesn't contradict his own creation, he isn't going to literally tell this mountain to move when he knows it would cause absolute chaos and destruction.
      Also, dragons have absolutely never existed, and especially didn't exist in St. George's time. He did not literally kill a dragon because they are fictional, superstitious beings.


      • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
      Damn ROCOR, how dare they advocate prayer!  Something must be done about this.
      Advocating prayer is different than requiring laypeople to live like they are monks. We live in the world, and we cannot pray constantly. We work secular jobs, we are free to go out to restaurants, to bars and pubs, to parties, to play games and to go to sporting events. We aren't monks and should never be expected to act like monks. We can live in the world and live ascetic lives as laypeople without living like we are married monks and nuns.


      • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
      See above about different schools of thought.
      See Above

      • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)
      So you reject an entire branch of the Church because "some people" felt that the MP was without grace?
      It was more than just "some people", it was a large number, and it included a major Archbishop who, although passed on, is still extremely influential and frequently looked to by those in ROCOR.

      • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.
      The horrors.  Are the anathemas heretical?
      No, but they are unnecessary and strict. It's like that Bishop in Greece who added a bunch of Anathemas. If the Church of Greece, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Antiochian Church, the Church of Moscow, etc... don't have those anathemas, they shouldn't be added unless a council adds them.


      I will say it again, if the Orthodoxy I've been taught (which often contrasts some sects of superstitious Slavic Orthodox) is wrong, I will gladly spend an eternity in hell for being wrong, because if the  strict, superstitious sects of Slavic Orthodox are right, I don't want to be right.[/list][/list]
      « Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:51:32 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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      « Reply #115 on: August 29, 2013, 12:44:51 PM »

      Devin, dismissing those whom you oppose merely by calling them "superstitious nuts" does nothing to help your case.
      « Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:45:37 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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      « Reply #116 on: August 29, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »


      The problems I have with ROCOR:
      • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view

      I would agree that most of the faithful in ROCOR believe that God created all things visible and visible.  Most faithful Orthodox of all jurisdictions believe this.  Regarding age of the earth and whether species can evolve into other species, how can you know for sure what "most" in ROCOR believe and how that compares with what "most" in the OCA believe?

      • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion

      On the Greek side, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain and many others emphasize the value of "frequent confession" without defining the frequency.  If you will not commune in a ROCOR parish because confession is required in order to commune, this would only indicate that you don't want to go do confession, which is a problem

      • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...

      You say "monks and elders" rather than "saints and Fathers".  We should trust the consensus of the saints and Fathers over scholars, academic theologians, priests, and bishops.  This how we guard ourselves against false teaching

      • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox

      I've never met anyone who adheres to an absolute literal interpretation of the tollhouse teaching.  Nor have I ever read such an interpretation in any of the patristic texts, nor in the writings of Fr. Seraphim (Rose)

      • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.

      Such as?

      • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition

      Such as?  Is it a sin to be faithful to what you have received, recognizing the many who became saints by praying and living in the exact same way?  You won't commune in ROCOR because they follow what their saints and fathers taught them?

      • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)

      And you will not commune in ROCOR for this reason?  Are you a member of a Parisian cult?

      • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.


      So these authors are infallible?  Or, does pointing out problems in their writings mean "opposition" to the authors?  Isn't it better to read the saints and fathers whose writings the Church has passed on for centuries with approval, rather than the untested works of people who have not been glorified as saints?

      • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want

      It is legalistic to explain when the sign of the cross should be made and when people should prostrate? I have never seen this carried out in much unison in any ROCOR parish.  The Old Believers are much better at this.

      • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)

      It isn't an assumption.  Skipping the fasts and skipping one's prayers should be confessed.  Who have you heard say that it isn't?

      • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.

      Do you know for sure that these things are not true?  Do you also think the stories of Elder Paisios being in two places at once is made up, or St. John of San Fransisco appearing in hospital rooms when the hospital is locked up, are made up? What evidence do you have to the contrary?  All of the lives of the saints, both in our times and in the early centuries, are filled with things very difficult to comprehend.  The problem is that we do not live by the Spirit but the flesh

      • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.

      A person should have a blessing from their spiritual father to spend a great deal of time in prayer beyond morning and evening prayers.  It is not sinful to pray a lot though!  I know of people in the GOA who are married and wake up in the middle of the night to keep a 2-3 hour vigil every night.  Do you think there is nobody in the OCA who prays a lot?

      • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.

      Abp Averky is barely spoken of in ROCOR today.  He had many important things to say, though, particularly for that time.  There could be a time when his prophetic voice will again need to be heeded, but today the Church is in a different place  

      • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)

      This was based on the fact that the Metropolia was an unlawful schism from ROCOR and St. Basil states in his first canon that those who go into schism lose the grace of the Holy Spirit.  This was definitely not a universal opinion.  Fr. Seraphim (Rose) didn't teach this.  Met Philaret said this in a private letter that surfaced after his repose, but there is no evidence that he taught it either.  His relics are incorrupt, though, so even if Met Philaret was wrong on this point, he was doing something right.

      • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.

      Several?  You mean one? What do you think of the additions made by Met Seraphim of Piraeus in Greece? (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/anathemas-of-metropolitan-seraphim-of.html) They don't have anything like that in ROCOR, but most in ROCOR never hear these anathemas because they are read only one Sunday of the year and only in churches where a bishop is present.
      [/list]

      That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.

      Well, they aren't very substantial for refusing to commune there.  Particularly since your previous Metropolitan (Jonah) has been taken in by ROCOR and your current Metropolitan serves with the Metropolitan of ROCOR.  You are not following your priest, bishop, or metropolitan in this issue; and you certainly aren't following the saints and Fathers  

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      « Reply #117 on: August 29, 2013, 01:05:33 PM »

      Well 88Devin all I've read of yours tends to leave a taste of intolerance and judgement you appear unable to justify. Indeed many in your own jurisdiction -remembering it's origins- would find you views indefensible I suspect. But that's your opinion. It is just not Orthodox.

      And don't tell me about kiosks in Athens, most of my time was spent in Churches, Monasteraries and Convents.
      And many there have problems with the Parisian School, and I write here of traditionalists in the CoG.

      But I'll waste no more of your time because you appear not to be listening to anything but your super fundamentalism. As for your comments on St John of Shanghai let mr fire back some words of his, Anything you say or I say, unless it is in accord with the mind of the Church, is simply an opinion, nothing more.

      Good day.
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      « Reply #118 on: August 29, 2013, 01:12:44 PM »


        The problems I have with ROCOR:
        • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
        I would agree that most of the faithful in ROCOR believe that God created all things visible and visible.  Most faithful Orthodox of all jurisdictions believe this.  Regarding age of the earth and whether species can evolve into other species, how can you know for sure what "most" in ROCOR believe and how that compares with what "most" in the OCA believe?
        Most of the ROCOR I've encountered have strictly adhered to Protestant-like Creationism instead of being open to scientific fact.

        • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
        On the Greek side, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain and many others emphasize the value of "frequent confession" without defining the frequency.  If you will not commune in a ROCOR parish because confession is required in order to commune, this would only indicate that you don't want to go do confession, which is a problem
        I will only confess to one Priest, not multiple ones. I will not confess every week, but if I could, once every few weeks, never weekly.

        • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
        You say "monks and elders" rather than "saints and Fathers".  We should trust the consensus of the saints and Fathers over scholars, academic theologians, priests, and bishops.  This how we guard ourselves against false teaching
        No, we should balance the consensus of the Fathers with those of scholars, academic theologians, priests, bishops etc... Not trust them over the others...

        • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
        I've never met anyone who adheres to an absolute literal interpretation of the tollhouse teaching.  Nor have I ever read such an interpretation in any of the patristic texts, nor in the writings of Fr. Seraphim (Rose)
        Have you encountered many members of ROCOR over the internet? Many I've encountered here and elsewhere seem to really adhere strictly to an idea of tollhouses as being literal.

        • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
        Such as?
        Such as the idea that Adam & Eve were literal people, when they are just being used metaphorically. Or the idea that the earth is somehow only a few thousand years old when it is far, far older. Or some people who believe the Hodegetria icon was literally painted by St. John of Damascus when it was not, and dates no earlier than the 13th/14th Centuries. It is probably a copy, but not the original. Or the writings of some Saints and modern figures who have claimed that the Roman Catholics innovated with unleavened bread and celibate Priests when it's proven fact they did so from the first few centuries of Christianity.

        • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
        Such as?  Is it a sin to be faithful to what you have received, recognizing the many who became saints by praying and living in the exact same way?  You won't commune in ROCOR because they follow what their saints and fathers taught them?
        You could argue the same about Roman Catholics. If they adhere to ROCOR saints rather than looking at them through the context of worldwide Orthodoxy and the many non-sainted figures like scholars, scientists and historians, then no, I won't commune there.

        • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
        And you will not commune in ROCOR for this reason?  Are you a member of a Parisian cult?
        The Parisians are not a cult, and they reflect Orthodox much closer than many within ROCOR.

        • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.

        So these authors are infallible?  Or, does pointing out problems in their writings mean "opposition" to the authors?  Isn't it better to read the saints and fathers whose writings the Church has passed on for centuries with approval, rather than the untested works of people who have not been glorified as saints?
        The writings of the saints and fathers need to be looked at in context with one another, and along with scholars, theologians, historians, scientists etc...

        • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
        It is legalistic to explain when the sign of the cross should be made and when people should prostrate? I have never seen this carried out in much unison in any ROCOR parish.  The Old Believers are much better at this.
        It is legalistic. I am aware that the "true orthodox" and "old believers" are more strict, but ROCOR is still too strict with this. Just look at the Jordanville Prayer Book (which I have a copy of).

        • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
        It isn't an assumption.  Skipping the fasts and skipping one's prayers should be confessed.  Who have you heard say that it isn't?
        It doesn't need to be confessed as it is not a sin. It should be told to the Priest though. It will not hurt your soul to not fast and to not pray, but it also doesn't help. As a Priest I know once said, not fasting and not praying isn't a sin, it is simply a missed opportunity.

        • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
        Do you know for sure that these things are not true?  Do you also think the stories of Elder Paisios being in two places at once is made up, or St. John of San Fransisco appearing in hospital rooms when the hospital is locked up, are made up? What evidence do you have to the contrary?  All of the lives of the saints, both in our times and in the early centuries, are filled with things very difficult to comprehend.  The problem is that we do not live by the Spirit but the flesh
        We know for sure these things are not true. Mountains have never moved without catastrophic, devastating and destructive earthquakes and shifting of plates. If it happened, we would know and so would people at the time. The stories of being in two places at once is different, because when one's soul is worn "outside" the body as is our true nature, then it takes true advantage of our true nature and things currently impossible for our physical bodies become possible. The soul and spirit are part of our creation, and although they can't be measured or seen by science, they are still a part of creation and can do things that are impossible when they are dominated by the physical flesh.

        • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
        A person should have a blessing from their spiritual father to spend a great deal of time in prayer beyond morning and evening prayers.  It is not sinful to pray a lot though!  I know of people in the GOA who are married and wake up in the middle of the night to keep a 2-3 hour vigil every night.  Do you think there is nobody in the OCA who prays a lot?
        It is not wrong for someone to pray a lot, but it is absolutely wrong to require this of all laypeople and to act like that is the highest state for a layperson to reach. It is part of their specific spiritual life, but it shouldn't be expected of me or others who don't/won't live that life.

        • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
        Abp Averky is barely spoken of in ROCOR today.  He had many important things to say, though, particularly for that time.  There could be a time when his prophetic voice will again need to be heeded, but today the Church is in a different place.
        I've heard and seen him quoted by people of ROCOR on the internet even today. His voice wasn't prophetic and has no place in Orthodoxy.

        • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)
        This was based on the fact that the Metropolia was an unlawful schism from ROCOR and St. Basil states in his first canon that those who go into schism lose the grace of the Holy Spirit.  This was definitely not a universal opinion.  Fr. Seraphim (Rose) didn't teach this.  Met Philaret said this in a private letter that surfaced after his repose, but there is no evidence that he taught it either.  His relics are incorrupt, though, so even if Met Philaret was wrong on this point, he was doing something right.
        No, the Metropolia wasn't in unlawful schism with ROCOR. ROCOR was in unlawful schism from the Metropolia and from Moscow. Moscow and the Metropolia were part of the Holy Orthodox Church, and ROCOR was in schism. Moscow never left the Orthodox Church in the 20th Century. ROCOR did by entering schism with Moscow.

        • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.
        Several?  You mean one? What do you think of the additions made by Met Seraphim of Piraeus in Greece? (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/anathemas-of-metropolitan-seraphim-of.html) They don't have anything like that in ROCOR, but most in ROCOR never hear these anathemas because they are read only one Sunday of the year and only in churches where a bishop is present.
        [/list] Met. Seraphim of Piraeus had no right to do what he did and he was rightly condemned by his fellow Bishops in Greece.

        That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.
        Well, they aren't very substantial for refusing to commune there.  Particularly since your previous Metropolitan (Jonah) has been taken in by ROCOR and your current Metropolitan serves with the Metropolitan of ROCOR.  You are not following your priest, bishop, or metropolitan in this issue; and you certainly aren't following the saints and Fathers
        Considering I may not be in the OCA much longer (by choice), I really don't care what our Metropolitan or former Metropolitans do.


        « Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 01:13:43 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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        « Reply #119 on: August 29, 2013, 01:15:42 PM »

        Well 88Devin all I've read of yours tends to leave a taste of intolerance and judgement you appear unable to justify. Indeed many in your own jurisdiction -remembering it's origins- would find you views indefensible I suspect. But that's your opinion. It is just not Orthodox.

        And don't tell me about kiosks in Athens, most of my time was spent in Churches, Monasteraries and Convents.
        And many there have problems with the Parisian School, and I write here of traditionalists in the CoG.

        But I'll waste no more of your time because you appear not to be listening to anything but your super fundamentalism. As for your comments on St John of Shanghai let mr fire back some words of his, Anything you say or I say, unless it is in accord with the mind of the Church, is simply an opinion, nothing more.

        Good day.

        Did those churches and monasteries happen to be in the countryside? Moderate Orthodoxy as lived in the cities is most reflective of true Orthodoxy. Athens is different because of how secular it has become, but most of the other cities of Greece are still more reflective of true Orthodoxy, whereas much of the countryside is on the opposite end of Athens, whereas Athens is overly secular and liberal, the countryside is overly "traditionalist" and conservative.
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        « Reply #120 on: August 29, 2013, 01:16:15 PM »

          The problems I have with ROCOR:

          • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.
          • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
          LOL.  If you want the apostolic practice, probably what you want is for people to be baptised and then, upon committing some sin, be kicked out of the Church (cf. Heb. 10.26-31, I Cor. 5.5) or slain by the Spirit (cf. Acts 5.1-11).  
          • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.
          • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.
          • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.
          • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.  Moreover, giving credence to tradition is hardly unorthodox.
          • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.  The opponents of the Paris School usually present a reasonable case for their opposition, even if one may disagree with it.  It's hardly the raving of a madman.  
          • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.

          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.
          • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
          LOL.  Do you think they invented these customs?  They inherited a whole system of liturgics from the Greeks you praise to high heaven.  The Greeks didn't baptise them and say "Do whatever you want whenever you want".  How are the Russians wrong for remaining faithful to and working with what they got from the Greeks?  
          • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
          Well, it's a pastoral issue, but can you really say that not fasting and/or not praying is not "missing the mark"?  
          • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
          Maybe they also actually believe that Jesus did all that stuff the Bible says he did.  Idiots.
          • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.  Also, since when is praying something to be criticised?  Why worry about how excessively others are praying and focus on how much or how little you are praying?  Does their example convict your own spiritual laziness or something?  They have confessors that they are accountable to, leave them alone and worry about yourself.
          • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
          ROCOR members are hardly alone on this, but none of the ROCOR people I've known and studied with fit this description.
          • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)
          I wouldn't be talking about Orthodox Christians holding questionable beliefs if I were you...
          • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.
          Have you seen the additions made to the anathemas read on the Sunday of Orthodox made by the Metropolitan of Piraeus?  Let me help you: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/anathemas-of-metropolitan-seraphim-of.html.  And the EP's response: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/ecumenical-patriarch-addresses.html.  At least ROCOR had a Synod issuing anathemas, not a single rogue bishop on home turf.  But he's Greek, so he can do that, right?    
          [/list]

          That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.

          Get some new objections.  
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          « Reply #121 on: August 29, 2013, 01:16:48 PM »

          Let us attend, the prophecies and teachings of St. Devin the Confessor have been poured out upon us in these last days.
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          « Reply #122 on: August 29, 2013, 01:16:52 PM »


            The problems I have with ROCOR:
            • Most members deny evolution and believe creationism to be the only Orthodox view
            I would agree that most of the faithful in ROCOR believe that God created all things visible and visible.  Most faithful Orthodox of all jurisdictions believe this.  Regarding age of the earth and whether species can evolve into other species, how can you know for sure what "most" in ROCOR believe and how that compares with what "most" in the OCA believe?
            Most of the ROCOR I've encountered have strictly adhered to Protestant-like Creationism instead of being open to scientific fact.

            • The un-Apostolic practice of requiring confession before every communion, even weekly communion
            On the Greek side, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain and many others emphasize the value of "frequent confession" without defining the frequency.  If you will not commune in a ROCOR parish because confession is required in order to commune, this would only indicate that you don't want to go do confession, which is a problem
            I will only confess to one Priest, not multiple ones. I will not confess every week, but if I could, once every few weeks, never weekly.

            • An uncompromising adherence to monks and elders versus balancing their views with scholars, theologians, Priests, Bishops etc...
            You say "monks and elders" rather than "saints and Fathers".  We should trust the consensus of the saints and Fathers over scholars, academic theologians, priests, and bishops.  This how we guard ourselves against false teaching
            No, we should balance the consensus of the Fathers with those of scholars, academic theologians, priests, bishops etc... Not trust them over the others...

            • Most members adhering to an absolute literal interpretation of the Toll House Theory, which is un-Orthodox
            I've never met anyone who adheres to an absolute literal interpretation of the tollhouse teaching.  Nor have I ever read such an interpretation in any of the patristic texts, nor in the writings of Fr. Seraphim (Rose)
            Have you encountered many members of ROCOR over the internet? Many I've encountered here and elsewhere seem to really adhere strictly to an idea of tollhouses as being literal.

            • Opposition to scholastic study, scientific knowledge and historic facts when these contradict tradition.
            Such as?
            Such as the idea that Adam & Eve were literal people, when they are just being used metaphorically. Or the idea that the earth is somehow only a few thousand years old when it is far, far older. Or some people who believe the Hodegetria icon was literally painted by St. John of Damascus when it was not, and dates no earlier than the 13th/14th Centuries. It is probably a copy, but not the original. Or the writings of some Saints and modern figures who have claimed that the Roman Catholics innovated with unleavened bread and celibate Priests when it's proven fact they did so from the first few centuries of Christianity.

            • Unwillingness to question many aspects of tradition
            Such as?  Is it a sin to be faithful to what you have received, recognizing the many who became saints by praying and living in the exact same way?  You won't commune in ROCOR because they follow what their saints and fathers taught them?
            You could argue the same about Roman Catholics. If they adhere to ROCOR saints rather than looking at them through the context of worldwide Orthodoxy and the many non-sainted figures like scholars, scientists and historians, then no, I won't commune there.

            • Opposition to the Parisian School of Orthodox theology (IE: Meyendorff, Schmemann etc...)
            And you will not commune in ROCOR for this reason?  Are you a member of a Parisian cult?
            The Parisians are not a cult, and they reflect Orthodox much closer than many within ROCOR.

            • Opposition to other Orthodox teachers/writers like Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. John Romanides, Bishop Kallistos Ware and Vladimir Lossky.

            So these authors are infallible?  Or, does pointing out problems in their writings mean "opposition" to the authors?  Isn't it better to read the saints and fathers whose writings the Church has passed on for centuries with approval, rather than the untested works of people who have not been glorified as saints?
            The writings of the saints and fathers need to be looked at in context with one another, and along with scholars, theologians, historians, scientists etc...

            • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
            It is legalistic to explain when the sign of the cross should be made and when people should prostrate? I have never seen this carried out in much unison in any ROCOR parish.  The Old Believers are much better at this.
            It is legalistic. I am aware that the "true orthodox" and "old believers" are more strict, but ROCOR is still too strict with this. Just look at the Jordanville Prayer Book (which I have a copy of).

            • The assumption that not fasting or not praying is somehow a sin and should be confessed. (this might actually be one of the "True Orthodox" groups)
            It isn't an assumption.  Skipping the fasts and skipping one's prayers should be confessed.  Who have you heard say that it isn't?
            It doesn't need to be confessed as it is not a sin. It should be told to the Priest though. It will not hurt your soul to not fast and to not pray, but it also doesn't help. As a Priest I know once said, not fasting and not praying isn't a sin, it is simply a missed opportunity.

            • The belief that tradition is entirely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that somehow St. George literally killed a real dragon, or Saints have literally moved mountains from one place to another.
            Do you know for sure that these things are not true?  Do you also think the stories of Elder Paisios being in two places at once is made up, or St. John of San Fransisco appearing in hospital rooms when the hospital is locked up, are made up? What evidence do you have to the contrary?  All of the lives of the saints, both in our times and in the early centuries, are filled with things very difficult to comprehend.  The problem is that we do not live by the Spirit but the flesh
            We know for sure these things are not true. Mountains have never moved without catastrophic, devastating and destructive earthquakes and shifting of plates. If it happened, we would know and so would people at the time. The stories of being in two places at once is different, because when one's soul is worn "outside" the body as is our true nature, then it takes true advantage of our true nature and things currently impossible for our physical bodies become possible. The soul and spirit are part of our creation, and although they can't be measured or seen by science, they are still a part of creation and can do things that are impossible when they are dominated by the physical flesh.

            • Strict adherence to constant prayer with the Jesus Prayer, asking that laity should be praying at least Mornings and Evenings. Or even some laity  who go further than this and act like monks, praying Mornings, Afternoons, Evenings and at Midnight using the Jesus Prayer a lot. Acting as if this is the goal for all laity.
            A person should have a blessing from their spiritual father to spend a great deal of time in prayer beyond morning and evening prayers.  It is not sinful to pray a lot though!  I know of people in the GOA who are married and wake up in the middle of the night to keep a 2-3 hour vigil every night.  Do you think there is nobody in the OCA who prays a lot?
            It is not wrong for someone to pray a lot, but it is absolutely wrong to require this of all laypeople and to act like that is the highest state for a layperson to reach. It is part of their specific spiritual life, but it shouldn't be expected of me or others who don't/won't live that life.

            • Adherence to the teachings of men like Archbishop Averky (who should be ignored completely). Especially a cult-like adherence to teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and others.
            Abp Averky is barely spoken of in ROCOR today.  He had many important things to say, though, particularly for that time.  There could be a time when his prophetic voice will again need to be heeded, but today the Church is in a different place.
            I've heard and seen him quoted by people of ROCOR on the internet even today. His voice wasn't prophetic and has no place in Orthodoxy.

            • That prior to the reunification, Some held the belief that the Moscow Patriarchate and the OCA/Metropolia were without grace. (Archbishop Averky being one of them)
            This was based on the fact that the Metropolia was an unlawful schism from ROCOR and St. Basil states in his first canon that those who go into schism lose the grace of the Holy Spirit.  This was definitely not a universal opinion.  Fr. Seraphim (Rose) didn't teach this.  Met Philaret said this in a private letter that surfaced after his repose, but there is no evidence that he taught it either.  His relics are incorrupt, though, so even if Met Philaret was wrong on this point, he was doing something right.
            No, the Metropolia wasn't in unlawful schism with ROCOR. ROCOR was in unlawful schism from the Metropolia and from Moscow. Moscow and the Metropolia were part of the Holy Orthodox Church, and ROCOR was in schism. Moscow never left the Orthodox Church in the 20th Century. ROCOR did by entering schism with Moscow.

            • Several additions made to the anathemas of the Sunday of Orthodoxy that other Orthodox Churches (most notably Russia & Greece) don't have.
            Several?  You mean one? What do you think of the additions made by Met Seraphim of Piraeus in Greece? (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/anathemas-of-metropolitan-seraphim-of.html) They don't have anything like that in ROCOR, but most in ROCOR never hear these anathemas because they are read only one Sunday of the year and only in churches where a bishop is present.
            [/list] Met. Seraphim of Piraeus had no right to do what he did and he was rightly condemned by his fellow Bishops in Greece.

            That's just some of my objections to ROCOR.
            Well, they aren't very substantial for refusing to commune there.  Particularly since your previous Metropolitan (Jonah) has been taken in by ROCOR and your current Metropolitan serves with the Metropolitan of ROCOR.  You are not following your priest, bishop, or metropolitan in this issue; and you certainly aren't following the saints and Fathers
            Considering I may not be in the OCA much longer (by choice), I really don't care what our Metropolitan or former Metropolitans do.


            When will you guys learn how to use quote tags properly.
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            « Reply #123 on: August 29, 2013, 01:23:49 PM »

              • Legalistic view of Liturgy: That is, designating points where you should cross or prostrate instead of leaving it open and letting people do it when they want
              LOL.  Do you think they invented these customs?  They inherited a whole system of liturgics from the Greeks you praise to high heaven.  The Greeks didn't baptise them and say "Do whatever you want whenever you want".  How are the Russians wrong for remaining faithful to and working with what they got from the Greeks?  

              You clearly know nothing about the Russians. The Russians have changed a lot of what they were given by the Greeks.[/list]
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              « Reply #124 on: August 29, 2013, 01:25:59 PM »

              I will say it again, if the Orthodoxy I've been taught (which often contrasts some sects of superstitious Slavic Orthodox) is wrong, I will gladly spend an eternity in hell for being wrong, because if the  strict, superstitious sects of Slavic Orthodox are right, I don't want to be right.

              You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  John 8.44
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              « Reply #125 on: August 29, 2013, 01:27:37 PM »

              You clearly know nothing about the Russians. The Russians have changed a lot of what they were given by the Greeks.

              You clearly don't know me, Russians, or Greeks.  I know me, I know Slavs, and I know Greeks.  References available upon request. 
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              « Reply #126 on: August 29, 2013, 01:31:32 PM »

              You clearly know nothing about the Russians. The Russians have changed a lot of what they were given by the Greeks.

              You clearly don't know me, Russians, or Greeks.  I know me, I know Slavs, and I know Greeks.  References available upon request.  

              Instead of "knowing" Russians and Greeks, why don't you actually research and learn what the Russians have changed rather than asking the people? Of course, same applies to Greece, instead of asking Greeks what differs, do research and learn what things they changed.

              I knew a hardcore Old Calendarist in Greece, and even he didn't know chairs were a very recent innovation in Greece. Just talking to the people of churches isn't enough.

              That's what's so stupid about a lot of Orthodoxy. People automatically assume something is "apostolic" or traditional because that is what they are taught instead of actually doing research and learning the truth. I've heard people say that something is "apostolic" when we know that thing is no older than 200 years. It's ridiculous.

              THAT is one thing I admire about Archbishop Lazar Puhalo and some of the people on YouTube that watch him. He isn't opposed to actual scholarship and isn't opposed to rejecting traditions that aren't reflective of reality. If a tradition says Saint So-And-So wrote Such hymn, but we know the hymn never appears in books until four centuries later, then we know that tradition is probably incorrect. Yet people will stubbornly adhere to such a incorrect tradition because they think the Holy Spirit inspired it and it must be true.
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              « Reply #127 on: August 29, 2013, 01:41:07 PM »

              What's the point, exactly?  It seems that you are a traditionalist progressive.
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              « Reply #128 on: August 29, 2013, 01:42:16 PM »

              You clearly know nothing about the Russians. The Russians have changed a lot of what they were given by the Greeks.

              You clearly don't know me, Russians, or Greeks.  I know me, I know Slavs, and I know Greeks.  References available upon request.  

              Instead of "knowing" Russians and Greeks, why don't you actually research and learn what the Russians have changed rather than asking the people? Of course, same applies to Greece, instead of asking Greeks what differs, do research and learn what things they changed.

              I knew a hardcore Old Calendarist in Greece, and even he didn't know chairs were a very recent innovation in Greece. Just talking to the people of churches isn't enough.

              That's what's so stupid about a lot of Orthodoxy. People automatically assume something is "apostolic" or traditional because that is what they are taught instead of actually doing research and learning the truth. I've heard people say that something is "apostolic" when we know that thing is no older than 200 years. It's ridiculous.

              THAT is one thing I admire about Archbishop Lazar Puhalo and some of the people on YouTube that watch him. He isn't opposed to actual scholarship and isn't opposed to rejecting traditions that aren't reflective of reality. If a tradition says Saint So-And-So wrote Such hymn, but we know the hymn never appears in books until four centuries later, then we know that tradition is probably incorrect. Yet people will stubbornly adhere to such a incorrect tradition because they think the Holy Spirit inspired it and it must be true.
              This is why I only listen to newly chrismated Orthodox.  They always know the most about the Church and it's tradition.  Roll Eyes
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              « Reply #129 on: August 29, 2013, 01:43:43 PM »

              You clearly know nothing about the Russians. The Russians have changed a lot of what they were given by the Greeks.

              You clearly don't know me, Russians, or Greeks.  I know me, I know Slavs, and I know Greeks.  References available upon request.  

              Instead of "knowing" Russians and Greeks, why don't you actually research and learn what the Russians have changed rather than asking the people? Of course, same applies to Greece, instead of asking Greeks what differs, do research and learn what things they changed.

              I knew a hardcore Old Calendarist in Greece, and even he didn't know chairs were a very recent innovation in Greece. Just talking to the people of churches isn't enough.

              That's what's so stupid about a lot of Orthodoxy. People automatically assume something is "apostolic" or traditional because that is what they are taught instead of actually doing research and learning the truth. I've heard people say that something is "apostolic" when we know that thing is no older than 200 years. It's ridiculous.

              THAT is one thing I admire about Archbishop Lazar Puhalo and some of the people on YouTube that watch him. He isn't opposed to actual scholarship and isn't opposed to rejecting traditions that aren't reflective of reality. If a tradition says Saint So-And-So wrote Such hymn, but we know the hymn never appears in books until four centuries later, then we know that tradition is probably incorrect. Yet people will stubbornly adhere to such a incorrect tradition because they think the Holy Spirit inspired it and it must be true.
              This is why I only listen to newly chrismated Orthodox.  They always know the most about the Church and it's tradition.  Roll Eyes
              Heck, listen to me.  I'm not even baptized yet.  I know all things orthodox, because I saw something about it on the History Channel and Wikipedia.  Beards and priests or something.
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              « Reply #130 on: August 29, 2013, 01:45:46 PM »

              What's the point, exactly?  It seems that you are a traditionalist progressive.

              I consider myself traditional in the sense of seeking after the true tradition that hasn't been blurred by popular pious superstition or legends. As well as being a moderate in that Orthodoxy shouldn't be strict, and should be a little more lax (but not too lax).

              To be quite honest, I find it very telling that the strict Orthodoxy I've heard many from ROCOR and on the internet adhere to absolutely doesn't reflect the Orthodoxy I've heard taught in the cities I've been in, nor have I ever really heard it openly taught on AFR or OCN, nor the websites of the GOA, OCA, AOCA etc... The only real major website where I've found it is OrthodoxInfo, and it's a private website by one man who cherry-picks the strict, conservative views.
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              « Reply #131 on: August 29, 2013, 01:47:08 PM »

              It is such a struggle.  I never know whether I should have William or Devin as my spiritual father.  They both decree the truth so well.
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              « Reply #132 on: August 29, 2013, 01:50:01 PM »

              What's the point, exactly?  It seems that you are a traditionalist progressive.

              I consider myself traditional in the sense of seeking after the true tradition that hasn't been blurred by popular pious superstition or legends. As well as being a moderate in that Orthodoxy shouldn't be strict, and should be a little more lax (but not too lax).

              To be quite honest, I find it very telling that the strict Orthodoxy I've heard many from ROCOR and on the internet adhere to absolutely doesn't reflect the Orthodoxy I've heard taught in the cities I've been in, nor have I ever really heard it openly taught on AFR or OCN, nor the websites of the GOA, OCA, AOCA etc... The only real major website where I've found it is OrthodoxInfo, and it's a private website by one man who cherry-picks the strict, conservative views.
              To be quite honest, I find it very telling that the version of Orthodox I hear from you, absolutely does not reflect the Orthodoxy taught by any priest, patristic father, AFR, OCN or the websites of the GOA, OCA, AOCA etc...  The only place that I have heard it is from you, which lend me to believe you just make up crap as you go along and condemn everyone who doesn't agree with you.
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              « Reply #133 on: August 29, 2013, 01:50:36 PM »

              This thread is higly educational.  I know when I am finally able to partake of the Eucharist, I will be sure to ask my priest what his views on evolution and toll houses are.  You know, before I receive communion from some heretic.
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              « Reply #134 on: August 29, 2013, 01:50:48 PM »

              Instead of "knowing" Russians and Greeks, why don't you actually research and learn what the Russians have changed rather than asking the people?

              I spent three years and several thousands of dollars of my own money earning my Master's with honours from St Vladimir's in New York; as my thesis was in the field of liturgy, I consider myself to have met the requirement above, and the faculty agrees.  Try again.  
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