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Poll
Question: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?
Yes - 18 (81.8%)
No - 0 (0%)
Only when it would get damaged - 4 (18.2%)
Total Voters: 22

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Author Topic: Do you ever remove your wrist chotki?  (Read 8123 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2013, 09:06:15 AM »

I have one. (A wrist chotki)
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« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2013, 09:21:17 AM »

Then there's no problem with using a prayer rope while we wait for the bread and wine to be transformed.

There are some:

" Let us stand aright. Let us stand with fear. Let us attend"
"Let us lift up our hearts (...) Let us give thanks unto the Lord.

etc.

Quote
Didn't realize prayers at home were "within the context of corporate worship."

Didn't realize alienating oneself out of the congregation is "within the context of corporate worship" either. If you do not need Liturgy, why to go there?
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« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2013, 09:22:55 AM »

Didn't realize that we could have an entire debate using feigned ignorance.  Wink
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« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2013, 09:30:16 AM »

2) The Extraordinary Form of the Mass is a pretty non-participatory liturgy AFAIK. I've heard that Catholics are encouraged to pray the Rosary (etc.) during the EF Mass when they're not currently "involved," for the lack of a better word. I assume pre-schism Liturgies (maybe OO too, if someone can comment) can also range in their degree of how participatory it is. Maybe the WR Liturgy of St. Gregory would fit this category (since I've heard it resembles the Tridentine). Wouldn't it be more reasonable for a person in such a liturgy to perform personal prayers outside those parts of the Liturgy/Mass that involve the parishioners? IDK, just wondering.

The Western Rite I attended was actually implemented by St. Tikhon of Zadonsky.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:32:54 AM by WPM » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2013, 09:40:11 AM »

I heard from a priest once who advised that wearing a chotki in general unless you are a monk is a bad idea because it becomes a symbol of pride for laity.  If you are using one, it is best to keep hidden on your person and use as needed.  To wear it is like the pharisee who prayed loudly in the temple.  I think that is very good advice.

Surely, there is a difference between a person who wears a 500-knot rope, spending time adjusting it during liturgy, and never prays as opposed to someone who wears a small one on the wrist, does not fiddle with it, and never prays.  If you don't use it to aid in your prayer life, you are right, it can be a symbol of pride and a stumbling block.  Even those who don't wear or use one for whatever reason, it's more important that they pray as well.  I'm about the furthest thing from being a monk, but the rope is merely a tool for me.

500-knots is too many I prefer the small 25-knot wrist rope.
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« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2013, 09:49:28 AM »

Then there's no problem with using a prayer rope while we wait for the bread and wine to be transformed.

There are some:

" Let us stand aright. Let us stand with fear. Let us attend"
"Let us lift up our hearts (...) Let us give thanks unto the Lord.

etc.

Honestly don't know what these quotes serve to show.

Quote
Quote
Didn't realize prayers at home were "within the context of corporate worship."

Didn't realize alienating oneself out of the congregation is "within the context of corporate worship" either. If you do not need Liturgy, why to go there?

I didn't realize that saying prayers while unable to verbally participate, yet still bodily participating, was "alienating oneself." Also, who said anyone didn't need the Liturgy? As usual, your short, terse sentences immediately break into snarky caricatures.
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« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2013, 10:00:14 AM »

I heard from a priest once who advised that wearing a chotki in general unless you are a monk is a bad idea because it becomes a symbol of pride for laity.  If you are using one, it is best to keep hidden on your person and use as needed.  To wear it is like the pharisee who prayed loudly in the temple.  I think that is very good advice.

Surely, there is a difference between a person who wears a 500-knot rope, spending time adjusting it during liturgy, and never prays as opposed to someone who wears a small one on the wrist, does not fiddle with it, and never prays.  If you don't use it to aid in your prayer life, you are right, it can be a symbol of pride and a stumbling block.  Even those who don't wear or use one for whatever reason, it's more important that they pray as well.  I'm about the furthest thing from being a monk, but the rope is merely a tool for me.

500-knots is too many I prefer the small 25-knot wrist rope.

I agree.
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« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2013, 10:16:51 AM »

I prefer to use that chotki which is unseen, as was mentioned in the Gospel:

"And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Thomas, because you have seen your chotki, you have prayed. Blessed are those who have not seen their chotki and yet have prayed.'” - Jn. 20:28-29

This solves both problems: I can use a prayer rope, yet no one sees it during liturgy.
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« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2013, 12:02:23 PM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it.  

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference.  

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.
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« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2013, 12:15:57 PM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it.  

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference.  

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.
I'm glad you have reached such a high level of theosis that you don't need to repeat a prayer to keep your mind on God. Roll Eyes For the rest of us, though, God gave us the Jesus Prayer.

You see, yeshuaisiam, God doesn't need to hear us repeat the Jesus Prayer 33, 50, 100, 300, or 500 times, for once is certainly enough. God recognizes, though, that we need to repeat the Jesus Prayer 33, 50, 100, 300, or 500 times just so our minds don't wander, for we are easily distracted.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:18:51 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2013, 12:21:13 PM »

Relativism.  You do what you do and keep doing it, becauseit's right for you.  I'll do what I do, because it's right for me.  It doesn't change the fact that we're all sinners.
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« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2013, 02:24:29 PM »

I say it once, and I know God hears it.

Bartimaeus didn't say it just once:

Quote
47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” 48 And many rebuked him, telling him to be silent. But he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 49 And Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” And they called the blind man, saying to him, “Take heart. Get up; he is calling you.” 50 And throwing off his cloak, he sprang up and came to Jesus. 51 And Jesus said to him, “What do you want me to do for you?” And the blind man said to him, “Rabbi, let me recover my sight.” 52 And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.

(Mark 10:47-52)
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« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2013, 02:38:49 PM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it.  

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference.  

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Saying the Jesus Prayer helps us to focus on the Lord's Presence.

I remember once before I was an Orthodox Christian, that I was sitting in a lecture room, listening to a Professor and Medical Doctor pontificating on the rights of women to have abortions. There was nothing I could do but pray. I was livid that this professor was contaminating the minds of teenagers and young adults present in the room. So, I wrote on my paper, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus." I noticed that my handwritting improved dramatically with simply writing the name of Jesus three times as I was not only writing, but actively praying to the Lord.

Some followers of New Age might attribute this change in me to magic or positive thinking.

No! I was storming heaven's gate that the Lord would intervene, and He did. One of the young students raised her hand and delivered a passionate and factual pro-life message that I could not have done. It was definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2013, 03:24:35 PM »

Well, I've just finished reading through every single post of this thread.  And now I ask myself, "Why?"  As when I ask this very same question about other threads I read through and/or post in, I can never come up with a good answer.  At least, now I am about 20 minutes or so closer to going home. 

I never remove my wrist chotki as it is never on my wrist.  Since it is never on my wrist, is it really a wrist chotki?
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« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2013, 05:15:34 PM »

I remove mine when I go to sleep. I won't be praying then.  angel
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« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2013, 03:46:14 PM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it. 

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference. 

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Well I agree with this guy but for different reasons

I have no problem with repetition of the Jesus Prayer because it helps me to keep my mind focused and concentrated on Christ. My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 03:46:58 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2013, 05:16:54 PM »

I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Then don't use one.  But that doesn't mean that others haven't found a use for prayer ropes and similar "counting devices" throughout centuries of Christian history, and more centuries of general religious practice. 
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« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2013, 07:02:37 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry
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« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2013, 07:41:45 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry

I've seen cradle Catholics wearing rosaries as necklaces, which brings up an important question: Can cradles LARP?
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« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2013, 07:49:44 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry

I've seen cradle Catholics wearing rosaries as necklaces, which brings up an important question: Can cradles LARP?


Most definitely!

As a matter of fact, most LARPers I get to meet in real life are cradles...
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« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2013, 10:15:49 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry

Dude, don't go calling the Boondock Saints kitsch.
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« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2013, 10:44:19 PM »

I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Then don't use one.  But that doesn't mean that others haven't found a use for prayer ropes and similar "counting devices" throughout centuries of Christian history, and more centuries of general religious practice. 

Way to get defensive

I never said they hadn't nor did I attack. I merely spoke for myself. I don't see any reason to use a chotki for myself personally; I find that instead of helping me concentrate on Christ, they instead act as a distraction having to count and everything.
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2013, 12:20:03 AM »

Way to get defensive

Not really, but I'm sorry anyway.  I think I lumped you with YiM because you lumped yourself with him, even if you qualified that agreement.  At any rate:

Quote
I don't see any reason to use a chotki for myself personally; I find that instead of helping me concentrate on Christ, they instead act as a distraction having to count and everything.

comes across, to me anyway, as more of a *personal* opinion than what you wrote earlier:

Quote
My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

I wasn't sure how far your stated agreement with YiM went.  That's all.
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« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2013, 01:03:33 PM »

I heard from a priest once who advised that wearing a chotki in general unless you are a monk is a bad idea because it becomes a symbol of pride for laity.  If you are using one, it is best to keep hidden on your person and use as needed.  To wear it is like the pharisee who prayed loudly in the temple.  I think that is very good advice.

I agree with this and what PtA has offered here.

If you want to be, or act like, a monastic, there are ninety nine monastic communities in North America under EA omophors and many more in traditionalist groups to join or for worship - if the community allows visitors. (Per OrthodoxWiki) Otherwise, your behavior ought not to stand out in your regular parish. That isn't to say that we don't admire someone for their exceptional  piety, kindness, devotion etc.. But the folks we so admire typically don't do anything to highlight their qualities, we notice them because they are genuine.
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« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2013, 12:10:17 AM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it. 

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference. 

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Well I agree with this guy but for different reasons

I have no problem with repetition of the Jesus Prayer because it helps me to keep my mind focused and concentrated on Christ. My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Though I see the continual repetition leading could lead into vain prayer, it can also be for a good cause.  As Maria mentioned being in a situation...  Saying the prayer when there is nothing left to pray... Saying it as a go to quickly.... Saying it in distress.... I can see the repetition making sense with non vain issue.

The vanity comes when people "keep track" of exactly how many times it is said.   "I must complete my chotki".   "I must pray x times to get the prayer done".   That is my issue with the entire thing.  

"I just bought this new 100 knot chotki, I'm going to go and sit in the icon corner and do the chotki".     Umm okay, 100 times for the sake of doing it 100 times.   That is vanity.    One could also say the chotki itself could be a testimony of boast (and vanity) towards others of how great your "faith is".   The more knots, the better...

The other day I was working on some solar screens for my house to keep the heat out (they work great too btw).... I heard   BAM!!! from the road.   I said the Jesus prayer.   I started running and called out to my 11 year old son to get the cell phone and meet me at the street.... running faster, said it again.   I arrive and there is a vehicle in the ditch (storm drain system), I said it again.    By God's grace the driver was shaken, but okay.     Afterwards I considered my prayers.  I didn't feel vanity in them.

It's my take on the chotki anyway....  I think it promotes the vanity of the repeated prayer.
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« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2013, 12:20:09 AM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it. 

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference. 

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Well I agree with this guy but for different reasons

I have no problem with repetition of the Jesus Prayer because it helps me to keep my mind focused and concentrated on Christ. My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Though I see the continual repetition leading could lead into vain prayer, it can also be for a good cause.  As Maria mentioned being in a situation...  Saying the prayer when there is nothing left to pray... Saying it as a go to quickly.... Saying it in distress.... I can see the repetition making sense with non vain issue.

The vanity comes when people "keep track" of exactly how many times it is said.   "I must complete my chotki".   "I must pray x times to get the prayer done".   That is my issue with the entire thing.  

"I just bought this new 100 knot chotki, I'm going to go and sit in the icon corner and do the chotki".     Umm okay, 100 times for the sake of doing it 100 times.   That is vanity.    One could also say the chotki itself could be a testimony of boast (and vanity) towards others of how great your "faith is".   The more knots, the better...
I do recall reading something Fr. Seraphim Rose said--maybe he was merely quoting someone else--about the fellow who would say the Jesus Prayer 500 times every morning and had no qualms about picking up a dinner plate and, without interrupting his prayers, throwing it at a neighbor who was making too much noise. Shocked Yeah, one could call that vain repetition.
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« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2013, 12:35:56 AM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it.  

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference.  

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Well I agree with this guy but for different reasons

I have no problem with repetition of the Jesus Prayer because it helps me to keep my mind focused and concentrated on Christ. My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Though I see the continual repetition leading could lead into vain prayer, it can also be for a good cause.  As Maria mentioned being in a situation...  Saying the prayer when there is nothing left to pray... Saying it as a go to quickly.... Saying it in distress.... I can see the repetition making sense with non vain issue.

The vanity comes when people "keep track" of exactly how many times it is said.   "I must complete my chotki".   "I must pray x times to get the prayer done".   That is my issue with the entire thing.  

"I just bought this new 100 knot chotki, I'm going to go and sit in the icon corner and do the chotki".     Umm okay, 100 times for the sake of doing it 100 times.   That is vanity.    One could also say the chotki itself could be a testimony of boast (and vanity) towards others of how great your "faith is".   The more knots, the better...
I do recall reading something Fr. Seraphim Rose said--maybe he was merely quoting someone else--about the fellow who would say the Jesus Prayer 500 times every morning and had no qualms about picking up a dinner plate and, without interrupting his prayers, throwing it at a neighbor who was making too much noise. Shocked Yeah, one could call that vain repetition.

Yes I would agree.  

But I do think the Jesus prayer is very holy, very powerful, and is wonderful to know, to say, and to pray often.  I also believe that those who are of better faith than I can say it repeatedly and sincerely and not make it vain.   For me, I ended up in a loop of boredom.  (just being honest)

This of course is my own fault.  The chotki itself, however aided in me in NOT being sincere about the prayer itself.   I certainly don't blame your priest at all for saying what he has about its use in church.

From memory, the focus should be on God, the liturgy, the Eucharist, and the union and prayer (and communion) of the entire Eastern Orthodox church.   The Jesus prayer, though its wonderful, seems more of a private prayer and a crying for help.  Though appropriately prayed in liturgy, the chotki would seem excessive and distractive.  After all it would seem the Orthodox Christians should be focused on the body of Christ directly in front of them awaiting for him to be in them, and them in Christ.

Again, I don't really have a dog in the fight itself as I'm not a practicing EO Christian today.   I do remember people having them in the church, but never witnessed people praying them during church.  I can't imagine the creed being sung while somebody opts out with in private prayer while using the chotki.
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« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2013, 11:09:57 AM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it. 

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference. 

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Well I agree with this guy but for different reasons

I have no problem with repetition of the Jesus Prayer because it helps me to keep my mind focused and concentrated on Christ. My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Though I see the continual repetition leading could lead into vain prayer, it can also be for a good cause.  As Maria mentioned being in a situation...  Saying the prayer when there is nothing left to pray... Saying it as a go to quickly.... Saying it in distress.... I can see the repetition making sense with non vain issue.

The vanity comes when people "keep track" of exactly how many times it is said.   "I must complete my chotki".   "I must pray x times to get the prayer done".   That is my issue with the entire thing.  

"I just bought this new 100 knot chotki, I'm going to go and sit in the icon corner and do the chotki".     Umm okay, 100 times for the sake of doing it 100 times.   That is vanity.    One could also say the chotki itself could be a testimony of boast (and vanity) towards others of how great your "faith is".   The more knots, the better...

The other day I was working on some solar screens for my house to keep the heat out (they work great too btw).... I heard   BAM!!! from the road.   I said the Jesus prayer.   I started running and called out to my 11 year old son to get the cell phone and meet me at the street.... running faster, said it again.   I arrive and there is a vehicle in the ditch (storm drain system), I said it again.    By God's grace the driver was shaken, but okay.     Afterwards I considered my prayers.  I didn't feel vanity in them.

It's my take on the chotki anyway....  I think it promotes the vanity of the repeated prayer.

Pretty much well said. I see in some, often newbies, an almost "magical" component to the Jesus Prayer and repetitions - not unlike the stereotypical RCC absolution (three Our Fathers, three Hail Mary's and all's well) or x# of days of plenary indulgences from saying this or that prayer. The frame of mind and intent of the penitent or supplicant is far more important than knots, repetitions etc...

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« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2013, 12:05:55 PM »

I personally don't get the point of a chotki. I have no reason to keep track of how much I say the Jesus Prayer. I simply say it when I need to say it and don't keep track of how many times I say it.

Exactly.  I say it once, and I know God hears it. 

For me today to say it many times only represents that I am faithless in God's ability to hear and understand.   I think its vanity to think a 25 counter would be less holy than a 500 counter.  Plus it's just funky.  I've used them many many times.   I even wore them to public school back in the day.   I liked my 33 knot one, and when I "upgraded" to a 100 knot, I really thought I was special - as if the 100 knot made a difference. 

All the time I didn't realize that God probably was sick of me doing it over and over again.   Try repeating the same thing to your spouse 100 times in a row...  Lips Sealed    I believe faithlessness can hide behind many words.... In fact SO many words, you have to have a knot in order to keep track of just HOW MANY words you need to get out.  If that is not the definition of a vain repetition, I don't know what is.   Of course, others see it differently, as does the EO faith in general.    I know... I know... it's so horrible to speak this way.  Let's not blaspheme the prayer rope after all.   Because each knot, each repeated prayer, brings us closer to God right?

Odd thing is, as I'm milking my Goats and gathering eggs from my chickens while thanking God in prayer, I feel much closer to him than I ever have.   I don't say the Jesus prayer for each pull of the teat either.  I don't have a rope with knots for repetitive prayer justified with crushing "churchianity" that overthrows the commands of God to not repeat in vain repetitions (25, 33, 99, 100, and 500 knot models just to keep track).   It's actually very easy to feel a deep relationship with God, while embracing his creation he made for you.

I concluded these two things:
1) Some may feel more close to God bowing repeatedly towards icons while incense floats in the air... Candles gleaming off images... While they repeat over and over again the same prayer while touching a knot to keep count.

2) For me, I feel more close to God in a barn that smells some, while milking a goat, praying to God, while the sunlight glistens through the cracks between boards and reflects off the particles of straw in the air.

Our God came to us in the flesh.  He chose Mary as his mother.  He also came into this world surrounded either by #1 or #2 as I described (you decide).  One can easily argue that the first Christian church was a barn/cave where animals were kept, droppings existed, and plenty of straw was available.

Well I agree with this guy but for different reasons

I have no problem with repetition of the Jesus Prayer because it helps me to keep my mind focused and concentrated on Christ. My problem with the chotki, however, is that I see no reason for it. I can simply recite the Jesus Prayer as much as I want without the chotki. I'm not keeping track of how many times I say it. I'm not a monk. If anything, I've found that using the chotki actually distracts me from concentrating on Christ because trying to count and keep track of those knots while concentrating on Christ at the same time is difficult. I simply see no good reason for the chotki.

Though I see the continual repetition leading could lead into vain prayer, it can also be for a good cause.  As Maria mentioned being in a situation...  Saying the prayer when there is nothing left to pray... Saying it as a go to quickly.... Saying it in distress.... I can see the repetition making sense with non vain issue.

The vanity comes when people "keep track" of exactly how many times it is said.   "I must complete my chotki".   "I must pray x times to get the prayer done".   That is my issue with the entire thing.  

"I just bought this new 100 knot chotki, I'm going to go and sit in the icon corner and do the chotki".     Umm okay, 100 times for the sake of doing it 100 times.   That is vanity.    One could also say the chotki itself could be a testimony of boast (and vanity) towards others of how great your "faith is".   The more knots, the better...
I do recall reading something Fr. Seraphim Rose said--maybe he was merely quoting someone else--about the fellow who would say the Jesus Prayer 500 times every morning and had no qualms about picking up a dinner plate and, without interrupting his prayers, throwing it at a neighbor who was making too much noise. Shocked Yeah, one could call that vain repetition.

It is only vain repetition if the prayer is prayed with vain repetition. If it is prayed with faith, love, and contrition, then it is by no means vain repetition.
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« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2013, 01:00:53 PM »

Sigh. We ALL fall short of the goal, but I am reminded of St. Paul's admonition to the church at Corinth...

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.…"


There appears to be much cymbal clanging ongoing online.
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« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2013, 05:14:44 PM »

Guys, please try to keep the thread on topic, concerning wrist chotkis, and not about a particular priest.  The question was do you wear your wrist chotki.

Also, please please PLEASE try your very best to discuss the issue without ridiculing anyone, especially an Orthodox priest.  It's always better to agree to disagree than to question the authority of those who disagree with you.

I pray you all act in a manner worthy of Christian behavior.

ALSO, it is AGAINST forum rules to call an Orthodox heirarch directly a heretic (this includes Old Calendar and Oriental Orthodox as well).  It is more suitable to say that you believe this position may be heretical, but to call someone a heretic is a direct judgment and considered the same as an ad hominem, which is against forum rules, and can be subject to an official warning.

God bless

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« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2013, 02:51:06 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry

I see Hispanic and Filipino Roman Catholics do this all the time.  Or hang it up on the rearview mirrors of cars.  I haven't seen an Orthodox person wear a prayer rope around the neck.  Just in their hands or on their wrists.  Not sure if it's really LARPing though or simply designating a tool for prayer as a fashion accessory.
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« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2013, 08:50:09 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry

I see Hispanic and Filipino Roman Catholics do this all the time.  Or hang it up on the rearview mirrors of cars.  I haven't seen an Orthodox person wear a prayer rope around the neck.  Just in their hands or on their wrists.  Not sure if it's really LARPing though or simply designating a tool for prayer as a fashion accessory.
Depending on who it is it's more of a protective charm.
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« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2013, 08:57:27 PM »

The LARPermost kitsch: wearing a prayer rope or a rosary around one's neck.  Angry  Angry  Angry

I see Hispanic and Filipino Roman Catholics do this all the time.  Or hang it up on the rearview mirrors of cars.  I haven't seen an Orthodox person wear a prayer rope around the neck.  Just in their hands or on their wrists.  Not sure if it's really LARPing though or simply designating a tool for prayer as a fashion accessory.
Depending on who it is it's more of a protective charm.
I can see that.  "Lord, protect my car as I place my rosary on the rear view mirror."
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« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2013, 10:46:15 PM »

The OCA has two excellent articles on Liturgical prayer and the Jesus Prayer. After reading them, it seems to me that Peter's priest's admonition to his parishioners regarding prayer by individuals during liturgy is quite consistent with the explanations offered on his jurisdiction's webpages. I suspect that the overzealous public display of private prayer by certain of the faithful became a distraction.

To wit: " When one participates in the liturgical prayer of the Church, he should make every effort to join himself fully with all the members of the body. He should not “say his own prayers” in church, but should pray “with the Church.” This does not mean that he forgets his own needs and desires, depersonalizing himself and becoming but one more voice in the crowd. It means rather that he should unite his own person, his own needs and desires, all of his life with those who are present, with the church throughout the world, with the angels and saints, indeed with Christ Himself in the one great “divine” and “heavenly liturgy” of all creation before God." 

And this: "In the Orthodox Church there is no tradition of corporate prayer which is not liturgical. Some consider this a lack, but most likely it is based on Christ’s teaching that the prayer of individuals should be done “in secret.” (Matthew 6-.5-6) This guards against vain repetition and the expression of personal petitions which are meaningless to others. It also protects persons from being subjected to the superficialities and shallowness of those, who instead of praying, merely express the opinions and desires of their own minds and hearts.

When a person participates in the liturgical prayer of the Church, he can only do so effectively to the extent that he prays by himself, at home, and in his own mind and heart. The one who “prays without ceasing” is the one who offers and receives most in liturgical prayer."  https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/prayer-fasting-and-alms-giving/liturgical-prayer

Wisdom in the book of Ecclesiastes teaches us that to every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. Liturgy is for liturgy - not outward expressions of excessive individual piety.  I think people are taking this priest's admonition totally out of context and making something out of nothing.
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« Reply #80 on: September 06, 2013, 01:05:08 AM »

There's this guy that comes into the smoke shop I go to that has his chotki dangling from his wrist while he's smoking a cigar. I already knew the type I was dealing with and asked him if he was a convert from evangelical Protestantism.. Grin

I have never seen any of the cradles like the Russians or Greeks do this. I should ask the younger Russians when they go out to the club if they have their chotki on for good luck. I suspect not.  
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« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2013, 09:23:20 AM »

I'm too lazy to read all posts (just read some first and last) so I'll just toss my two cents into it.

I remove my 33 wrist chotki for some "toilet things" plus taking a bath and swimming and for sleeping (only if I pray on them just before sleeping I keep them on my hand, maybe it's a good thing to avoid some disturbing dreams of various areas?...).

I know there are different opinions regarding the issue of wearing chotki laymen because it can be a cause of pride and there is a danger of it, that's true. But my priests says it's good thing because it remind us to pray constantly and help to focus on the prayer even in stressing or annoying situations and it's also a kind of our testimony of the Orthodox faith. I would also add that, similarly as cross on the neck and icons at our home, it prevents us from bad thoughts and other sins.

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« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2013, 10:49:53 AM »

For what it's worth, A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos also recommends the use of the prayer rope in church services.
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« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2013, 09:53:21 PM »

LOCKING THREAD FOR CLEAN-UP

Selected posts in this thread were moved here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53784.0.html

and here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,54526.0.html

For relevance of topic discussed
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:52:21 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2013, 11:21:30 AM »

I want people to notice that this thread used to be about 6 or 7 pages...now it's 2 pages, which means most people have veered soooo off topic that it was no longer about the OP.  So I split this thread to three threads, the original being this one, and two others.  I expect people here to stay on topic.  I will be harsh this time if people veer off topic.  I've had enough with complaints about this thread, and it took me forever to clean it up.  Clean up your actions together too, and have some mature and professional discussion on whether you remove your wrist chotki and why?  No discussion about if a priest is allowed to ban the wrist chotki in his parish, as this is discussed in another thread, and that this became heated among you anyway.

Thread unlocked.

God bless.

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« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2013, 11:35:31 AM »

By the way, merely mentioning that your parish priest does not allow the wrist chotki is acceptable.  But discussion on how dare or how good for the priest to forbid it is not allowed in this thread, but is allowed in the other thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53784.0.html

God bless.
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« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2013, 03:51:57 PM »

Coincidentally, I got my prayer rope today. Anyone know how to shrink wool bracelets? It's a bit big.
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« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2013, 04:55:47 PM »

Coincidentally, I got my prayer rope today. Anyone know how to shrink wool bracelets? It's a bit big.
The same way you shrink wool sweaters?
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« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2013, 05:30:04 PM »

Coincidentally, I got my prayer rope today. Anyone know how to shrink wool bracelets? It's a bit big.
The same way you shrink wool sweaters?

The dryer?
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« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2013, 06:22:07 PM »

Coincidentally, I got my prayer rope today. Anyone know how to shrink wool bracelets? It's a bit big.
The same way you shrink wool sweaters?

The dryer?
Not saying I recommend it, but it worked -- albeit accidentally -- for me.
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
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