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Author Topic: Christian Zionism  (Read 5720 times) Average Rating: 0
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sdcheung
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« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2005, 12:20:53 AM »

End the foolishness...

an-+ti-Sem-+ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemite

an-+ti-Sem-+i-+tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism


Are you going to start denying the Holocaust too? Angry




anti-semitism is one who is against Arab Muslims/Orthodox
and yes, I have serious questions about the veracity and the number killed in the holocaust.
subject to modification as soon as the Jews give eqaul weight and recogniition to the Hanking Holocaust perpetrated by Japanese. and the Pontic-Asia Minor Holocaust of greeks perpetrated by Turks.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 12:25:10 AM by sdcheung » Logged


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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2005, 12:25:17 AM »

End the foolishness...

an-+ti-Sem-+ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemite

an-+ti-Sem-+i-+tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism


Are you going to start denying the Holocaust too? Angry




Oh no, you appealed to the DICTIONARY! Oh the debate is SETTLED NOW! LOL

Dude don't you konw about appeals from authority? You appeal to the dictionary but someone will ask you why that definition should be trusted. Dictionaries describe current usage, not what a word should mean or could mean. Anti-semitism can and should be expanded to mean discrimination against any Semite (Jew, Arab, Assyrian).

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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2005, 12:34:18 AM »



Oh no, you appealed to the DICTIONARY! Oh the debate is SETTLED NOW! LOL

Dude don't you konw about appeals from authority? You appeal to the dictionary but someone will ask you why that definition should be trusted. Dictionaries describe current usage, not what a word should mean or could mean. Anti-semitism can and should be expanded to mean discrimination against any Semite (Jew, Arab, Assyrian).

Anastasios

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Revised Definition:

anti-semite denotes an antagonistic attitude towards a group of Semitic-speaking people including Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians

modern Jews are NOT Semitic...most have mixed with either Europeans or Asians (Turks, Mongols etc)

« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 12:53:35 AM by sdcheung » Logged


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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2005, 07:12:37 AM »



Oh no, you appealed to the DICTIONARY! Oh the debate is SETTLED NOW! LOL

Dude don't you konw about appeals from authority? You appeal to the dictionary but someone will ask you why that definition should be trusted. Dictionaries describe current usage, not what a word should mean or could mean. Anti-semitism can and should be expanded to mean discrimination against any Semite (Jew, Arab, Assyrian).

Anastasios

I disagree as a "Semite". It is a lable that has little meaning in reality (there are no Semitic people, just languages and people that speak them) and was originally used only to refer to languages. If I hate Chinese people, I am not anti-Sino-Tibeatan or if I hate Italians I'm not anti-Romantic or if I hate Swedes Im not anti-Germanic. In reference to "racE" it was popularized by Nazis and other Euro fascists along with their prided "Ayrian". Why not do we call Europeans and Indians Ayrians? Why not if I dislike Westerners or Persians am I not hating AYRIAN NATIONS? Using Semitic to refer to "people" is falling into the trap of Hitler with his superior Ayrians and inferior Semites. Itis a peudo-sientific-racial term and I do not understand why people continue to use it as if it is legitamate to call people it. There is no Semitic race. Arabs are not a race, Jews are not. All of these groups are ethno-linguistic. There are Arabs who look like the blackest of black Africans and ones who have green eyes and blonde hair. Semitic is a patronizing term when applied to groups of people and quite insulting.

Quote
modern Jews are NOT Semitic...most have mixed with either Europeans or Asians (Turks, Mongols etc)

That's funny because there are no Semitic people in more.THey've all mixed with neighboring people. Arabs mixed with those same groups and with Berbers, Ethiopians, Tanzanians, Persians, Malays the list goes on and on. The idea of a 'Semitic" people is a fantasy propogated by racists.
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At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
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« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2005, 08:11:45 AM »



Sdcheung,

Sorry, but your posts in other threads and here have clearly shown that you are an unrepentant racist. I will not talk to you again because of this. I will pray for you.

Bob the sinner.


Ditto...and Sdcheung
And may i remind you that you are talling about ETHNICITY not RACE..if you want to get picky, we are (very generally speaking, in the peoples you are speaking of) Caucasian, as a race, check with your local university's anthropology depatrtment.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 08:19:42 AM by aurelia » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2005, 08:57:49 AM »



Ditto...and Sdcheung
And may i remind you that you are talling about ETHNICITY not RACE..if you want to get picky, we are (very generally speaking, in the peoples you are speaking of) Caucasian, as a race, check with your local university's anthropology depatrtment.



See my reply to Bob.
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« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2005, 11:42:35 AM »

Matthew,

Quote
I am a Christian Zionist.

I've always found this a curious position for Christians to take. I know that there can be many shades of this, with differing rationales, but my understanding is that the Zionist position breaks down into two basic versions...

Religious Zionism : This would be the position of those who believe the Jews have a right to their own state on religious grounds (basically, "God gave them the land", and unconditionally so).

Secular Zionism: This is the position of atheistical Jews, and those non-Jews who believe Jews "deserve" their own homeland, on the basis of "anti-Semitism" being such a problem that Jews will never be happy or safe unless they have their own state. Interestingly, this is the thinking of the original Zionists (who were all atheistical/secular in their orientation; it took a long time for Orthodox Jewry to get on board the Zionist cause, as it used to be commonly believed that it would only be with the "coming of Moschiach" that the Jews would regain the Holy Land) - "religious Zionism" is a later phenomenon.

I believe the arguments in favour of either position are wanting; particularly the "religious argument", and even more so from a Christian perspective. The Jews, while religiously/culturally semitic (and this is the only meaningful way of looking at it - as another poster wisely pointed out, the "racialist" views are distinctly modern, not to mention erroneous and dangerous), practice a religion in varying degrees of intensity (from ultra-Orthodox down to "Reform" and "Reconstructionist" Judaism) which is essentially the child of the Sanhedrin that betrayed the Lord and sent Him to His death - and it's been justifying that betrayal in various ways (ranging from denial to blasphemy) every since. Aside from age old Christian teaching that the Church is the continuation of the Old Testament Church (which, sadly, Evangelical Protestants basically deny), I find it hard to fathom how a Christian can accept the idea that an unfaithful people are the beneficiaries of promises which in the Old Testament are strictly conditional to their fidelity. For example, it was because of the unfaithfulness of the northern tribes, that they were invaded and dispersed by pagans - and later it was the ongoing faithlessness of the people which resulted in the expulsion of the Judahites (Jews proper) which resulted in their expulsion the first time around and the destruction of the first (Solomon's) Temple.

As for the secular argument, if we were to take it to heart (including accepting all of the premises at face value; which I do not, btw.) and apply it universally and equitably (though truthfully we are not supposed to do this), it would result in anarchy - since there are any number of disadvantaged people who could (and often do, but usually to no effect) throw up a fuss and demand they be settled in a land ruled by them and for them alone.  There are of course, many other well known injustices further associated with the formation of the modern state of Israel to be considered as well.

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« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2005, 11:57:26 AM »

RE: "Antisemitism"

There are some reasons why I typically quote the term "antisemitism", and otherwise refer to it in a less than enthusiastic way. It is, to my thinking, a poisoned word; it reflects a basic way of thinking which is at worst dangerous, and at best, disingenuine and politically manipulative.

As someone else wisely pointed out, no one is really "racially" a semite. While it is true that certain physical characteristics often do concentrate amongst particular ethnic groups, it is never so clear cut as to constitute a "race" - "race" at best is a generalization, at worst a dangerous fiction of recent origin.

Beside the fact that Jews have no monopoly on the identification of being "semites" (in fact I would say there are other peoples who in fact are far more deserving of the identification of being "semitic" - particularly when you consider most Jews are secular, and have taken on the customs, language, and many of the values/ideals of the non-semitic lands they live in), let us consider what is really being identified when people cry "anti-semite".

- Negative views/feelings about "Jewish culture" (which is many things, but obviously there is going to be a common core running throughout)

- Negative views/feelings about "Jewish religion" (which again, is many things, but with a basic core which allows it all to be lumped together in some wise)

All unflattering views men may hold about this or that person/people/country/religion/ideology, etc., fall under two categories - prejudice (prejudgement; holding to a position that is not informed), and informed opinion.

Prejudice in any situation is not good - but it is hardly unique to anti-Jewish sentiment. But what about those who on various counts find some/many things about Jewish culture and/or religion unsavory? Are these people "antisemites" as well? You bet! And that is the problem I have with "antisemitism" as a term we're all supposed to accept "as canon" - it's basically a licence to privilege for a certain group of people, to make them immune to almost any meaningful criticism. Yet consider that no such doggedly held aversion to criticism is held for any other group in our civilization - everything seems to be fair (and unfair!) game, no matter how crude the attack. Even many of the things social conservatives complain about as receiving "special treatment" (like homosexuals for example) do not come close to the level of manic "sacred cow" status as do Jewish culture and religion.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 11:58:14 AM by Augustine » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2005, 01:02:45 PM »

Bob, thanks for putting forth some qualification to Matthew's argument.

Thanks Pedro.  I think you make some very interesting points in your post.

Bob
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« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2005, 01:25:27 PM »

anti-Semitism   
Related: Judaism

(-ân&180;t-ô-s-òm-¦-¼t-¼z&180;em, -ân&180;t-½-) , form of prejudice against Jews , ranging from antipathy to violent hatred. Before the 19th cent., anti-Semitism was largely religious and was expressed in the later Middle Ages by sporadic persecutions and expulsions—notably the expulsion from Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella—and in severe economic and personal restrictions (see ghetto ). However, since Jews were generally restricted to the pursuit of occupations that were taboo, such as moneylending, the sentiment was also economic in nature.
http://encyclopedia.com/html/a1/antiS1emi.asp
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« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2005, 01:37:09 PM »



See my reply to Bob.

I did, and that is why i cant possibly take you seriously. I apologize for that because you seem very firm in your beliefs, but they are the sorts of things that have been proven to be dangerous in the course of history, not just for Jews, but for any persecuted people.

Oh, and thanks Matthew, that is exactly right, what you posted right before me.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 01:38:05 PM by aurelia » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2005, 02:05:55 PM »

anti-Semitism
Related: Judaism

(-ân&180;t-ô-s-òm-¦-¼t-¼z&180;em, -ân&180;t-½-) , form of prejudice against Jews , ranging from antipathy to violent hatred. Before the 19th cent., anti-Semitism was largely religious and was expressed in the later Middle Ages by sporadic persecutions and expulsions—notably the expulsion from Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella—and in severe economic and personal restrictions (see ghetto ). However, since Jews were generally restricted to the pursuit of occupations that were taboo, such as moneylending, the sentiment was also economic in nature.
http://encyclopedia.com/html/a1/antiS1emi.asp


Matthew,
You can quote encyclopedias/dictionaries/etc. all you want, but they all just propogate the disingenuity (is that a word) of the word "antisemitism".  Again, the word replaced the more meaningful German word of Judenhass (or 'hating of Jews' translated to English).  "Antisemitism", if you look at the "Semite" part reveal what a bad replacement or choice it was to replace Judenhass.  All these dictionaries/encyclopedias/etc. just use modern usage - but don't really go into entymology and what the words really should mean.  As Augustine/Pedro have pointed out, they are very politically charged/abused/etc.
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« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2005, 02:27:51 PM »

It is senseless for someone to be bigoted against the Jewish people and then say, "I'm not an anti-semite because I don't hate Arabs."
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« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2005, 02:57:34 PM »

Quote
I have serious questions about the veracity and the number killed in the holocaust.
subject to modification as soon as the Jews give eqaul weight and recogniition to the Hanking Holocaust perpetrated by Japanese.

Could you please give us some sources where a Jewish author, speaking for the entire Jewish ethnicity, denies these atrocities against humanity?

In fact, I think I'll deny that any atrocities were committed against those Orientals until this particular one accepts the reality of the Shoah. In fact, I'm going to start a campaign to discredit these claims. After all, who can trust what the Chinese say? You're all communists anyways and, as we know, communism is a Jewish conspiracy. Since the Chinese have bought into it, they're just as bad as those Jews anyways, so why should anyone trust what an Oriental like you has to say?
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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2005, 04:31:08 PM »

You're all communists anyways and, as we know, communism is a Jewish conspiracy.   

...and a Jesuit conspiracy. Cheesy
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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2005, 04:43:18 PM »

As I posted on the "original" thread,

I have noticed that our Serbian church is a lot more friendly to Jewish issues. I think that's because the Serbs, Jews and Romany were all put in the same concentration camps by the same groups of people. I've never heard any of these issues discussed by converts.

Please start your hatred of the Serbs and Romany now. I look forward to hearing your rascist comments.

P.S. According to modern linguistic theory, how a word is understood by those communicating "defines" that word. If someone defines "anti-semitism" as someone who hates Jews then that's what they mean when they use it in a statement. Trying to redefine another's word does not redefine their intended meaning. This tactic is generally used to set up "straw man" arguments.

Saying, "You're trying to condemn me as an anti-semite is wrong because I don't hate Arabs" is disingenuous when they are claiming that you are a rascist who hates Jews. The proper response would be, "Gosh, I'm an Orthodox Christian and I don't hate Jews. That would be a sin." I suppose another response could be, "You're right, I hate all Jews."

I would hate for anyone in the outside world to be able to come in and read these posts and think this is really what Orthodoxy teaches about a people.

I am completely disgusted with the biggoted rubbish here and hope that this entire thread is sent to file 13.
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« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2005, 04:47:57 PM »

As an afterthought,

I think it would be nice if all comments denying the fascist holocaust against the Jews or denying the horrific nature of the fascist holocaust against the Jews should be deleted.  There are enough here to defend the numbers slaughtered in holocausts against Orthodox peoples.  Considering the roles of some traditionally Orthodox peoples in the murder of Jews in WWII, I would think people here would be a lot more cautious. 
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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2005, 04:52:23 PM »

I have a better thought. I am closing this thread because it has gotten outrageous.

Anastasios
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