Christian Zionism

[Matthew777]

My church is perfectly integrated, and I love the complete lack of ethnocentricism.

We usually discuss theology and politics after liturgy.

I am a Christian Zionist.

[Sabbas]

I would just like to say that I am disgusted that anyone can support Israel. Read this:
http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/martyrs/nmphilou.html Has Israel done anything to catch the killers? NO! Does Israel allow Orthodox Christians to Rachels tomb? No! Read what a fellow Orthodox has to say http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5kdtzD8iGrUJ:www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1226.cfm+rachels+tomb+Orthodox&hl=en
I know Greek Orthodox Palestinians and I can tell you that the Zionists want to destroy Orthodox just the same as the muslims. The Jews have no right to Palestine. Most of the Jews there are Ashkenaz and they are primarily descended from Central Asians. I should know as I am 1/4 Ashkenaz on my fathers side. Of course my family have no claim to Israel because they converted to Catholicism when they came to America! Do you see how ridiculous the Zionists claim is. If I converted to Judaism I'd have a claim but since I'm not I have no claim! It's insane!
I'm sorry but I know people who are Orthodox live in Palestine and go through hell from Zionists just for being Palestinian.

For me it's a couple of things. On a personal level it's sometimes difficult for me to relate to a Protestant convert who seems content to hold onto a lot of previous baggage. Protestantism always seemed hokey and contrived to me. Kind of a natural expression of Christianity mixing with American values. This baggage seems to linger if they've been brought into Orthodoxy through the writings of the ex EOC's or the more "modernist" theologians of our day. I think this can be attributed to the fact that in these writings, the primary focus is doctrine and historical and biblical arguments. There is no concept of Orthodox piety introduced to them through these writings. They don't seem to take much interest in the lives of the saints, relics, or just plain down to earth Orthodoxy. The basics of forming an Orthodox mind and heart. Why no interest? I think it has to do again with their introduction to Orthodoxy. Many of these people were formerly appalled by the notion of venerating saints and relics, piety, asceticism, etc. Now, after reading the works of a modernist theologian who pays no real attention to these "details" of Orthodoxy, or who downplays their imporance as merely being a "cult of saints" which developed sometime after the acceptance of Orthodoxy by the State, these people can sort of overlook these things which they formerly disagreed with.

Troubling also is when this mindset starts to overtake the services. I've seen long time Protestant converts try to do readings in a "non traditional way", kind of like a Catholic priest saying the Mass, ..or like a parent reading to their little kid. I suppose he thought it was more natural to do it this way, and who needs all this ceremony anyway? Fortuntely someone asked him to read it like an Orthodox Christian. The guy read again like Protestant and the book was taken from him.
You also see this Protestant "we want equality" with the clergy mindset. Meaning, let me make prostrations in the Church when the priest does, and let me say his "amens", and let me call him Fr. Billy because "he's just a sinner like me!". This isn't an Orthodox concept of laity/clergy roles.

Just some ramblings.

I agree with you entirely Bogoliubtsy. I can't see why these people even become Orthodox. Perhaps they have some half baked idea that they are entiring 'the best denomination.'

Also.......does anyone ever feel that many of the converted Protestants never quite leave their Protestantism "at the door"? Like...a lot of the "white-isms" (like....first question: "What do you do for a living"?) which repulsed me from the Protestant Chuch land right here in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. Or....the surprisingly Zionist mindsets of people in the Orthodox church.
idontlikenames

I see where you are coming from.  Personally I support Palestine as is already obvious and I do0 not care for Democratic govt. My political heroes are men like Tsar Nicholas I and Tsar Alexander III and the American Loyalists.

i even find that a lot of the "mariphobia" which is rampant in Protestantism is visibly apparent in converts to the Orthodox faith....like people who refuse to believe that St. Mary did not sin.
When I became Orthodox, I completely renounced everything which was Protestant in me.
idontlikenames

I converted after have been a Nihilist for five years. What brought me to Orthodoxy was my search for Truth. This is why I love Fr.Seraphim of Platina so much. The story of his conversion is so much like mine. I didn't have any baggage. I came to the Church with nothing but pain and bad memories. What converts need to except is that the Church is where all Truth is found. Protestantism has cut itself off from Truth and therefore is leads nowhere but into a confused state in which one wants the Life in Christ but can't find it.
I also see what you are saying about the Theotokos. This idea that it is somehow slightly wrong to say Most Holy Theotokos save us! is disturbing. If you don't get that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God than you haven't fully converted to Orthodoxy.

I'm sorry I have spoke my mind but I want you all to know how I feel.

I say none of this is anger or hatred for anyone and if I offended any I'm sorry.

[sdcheung]

My church is perfectly integrated, and I love the complete lack of ethnocentricism.

We usually discuss theology and politics after liturgy.

I am a Christian Zionist.

Uh I hope you know that Christian Zionism is not one of the Beliefs of the Orthodox Church

[Nacho]

LoL ....The above few post is a good example of "internet Orthodoxy". Thank God I have never met any Orthodox in person that act like this and I have met many across jurisdictional lines. Thanks for the good laugh tough everyone, much needed today..

[Ibrahim]

I should I am strongly not a Zionist. The status quo allows for Israel to exist, but they should be more fair to the Palestinians. I have seen on the news about Palestinian kids getting shot in the head for throwing stones! They occupy my country as well as if it is theirs. IT is not and never will be and never was. My grandparents and parents used to live in Golan and had to leave to Allepo because the Israelis occupied it with all their guns and settlers. I wished they would have stayed to fight back or to at least show that Syria will not give up for our country. That is where the battle should be waged, not in Palestine because they are counter productive there. They kill more Arabs than Israelis! What is wrong with them? I was reading an article earlier today about the trechery of the IDF towards the ORthodox villages in Palestine, they mowed the villages over just like Muslim ones. They don't care, and still so many western "christians" support this. I don't get it. But, to each his own. The US should not tell Syria to leave Lebanon (we were asked there I don't think we should stay any longer than we need though) if they will let the IDF and Israeli settlsers occupy the sovereign nation of Syria. Syria shoudl make an Israeli accountability act and run out the settlers. This is just me thinking because Sabbas brought it up. I haven't talked to any of my Greek friends about it acctually so I don't know how they feel. I have talked to some Cypriots about the trechery of the Turks there though. There used to be an ancient group of Maronite Arabic speakers with a very special dialect (that is now dying out) that lived there but when the Turks came they all had to flee and only a few brave women stayed and continued their ways in the face of the Turkish occupation. I wish more Syrians had that kind of courage. the Cypriots certainly do.

[Jakub]

A Orthodox Christian Zionist hmm........

Its getting better all the time.


james

[Matthew777]

Uh I hope you know that Christian Zionism is not one of the Beliefs of the Orthodox Church

Neither is racism and anti-semitism.

What I mean is that I believe that Israel has the absolute right to exist, and that peace in Israel means peace for the rest of the world.

[sdcheung]

Neither is racism and anti-semitism.

What I mean is that I believe that Israel has the absolute right to exist, and that peace in Israel means peace for the rest of the world.

Listen Bubbo..
I'm neither Racist nor Anti-Semitic..I never hated any Arabs.

it can exist in Madagascar.

[Matthew777]

Aren't we conservative on social issues?

[Sabbas]

First I'd like to apologize for getting a little mean in my last post. When I read it to myself I realized I went a little far. Sorry.

Neither is racism and anti-semitism.

What I mean is that I believe that Israel has the absolute right to exist, and that peace in Israel means peace for the rest of the world

I was the butt of jokes in High School for 'looking like a Jew' in addition to being descended from a partial Jew background so I don't think I could be Anti-Semitic on this. Let me just ask you why Israel deserves to exist in Palestine? It should have been in Argentina or somewhere else if it was going to be anywhere and the Neturei Karta Jews don't think Zionism is even compatible with Judaism.



Aklie Semaet's post is great and I must say I've never heard of a Protestant convert Church breaking away!

[Anastasios]

Any (American) political points that I could find in all of the above posts were eliminated. I tried to keep the Israeli discussion and the generic question of religion and conservative vs. liberal in a non-partisan sense as best as I could. Anyone is free to fix his posts if they seem mangled from my editing job but please do not discuss Bush or the GOP, the Democrats, etc etc etc. It's against forum policy.

Anastasios

[Tallitot]

Really...I felt this topic got fairly derailed..it started out about "whether or not a large number of converts will bring about a protestantising of Orthodox" and ended up "should Isreal exisit".

[aurelia]

Oh good lord, if i ran onto this sort of thing while finding my spiritual home i would have run the opposite way so fast my head would have fallen off! How do you get from are converts "protestantizing" the Church to a rant on Israel's right to exist? join the PLO if that is what you want to yammer about all day, and I am getting sick of all the implications (seemingly nazi-isms) that jews are all priveledged and all that crap---my Jewish parents are poor as church mice, never had anything handed to them, worked hard all their life. My dad's father dug ditches during the Depression to support his family, how is that priveledged? As for why i am converting to Orthodoxy, that is because it feels like home to me, and guess what, my folks are very happy for me and cant wait to come to my Crismation, and the baptisms of my children. This is supposed to be a forum for ORTHODOX FAITH ISSUES not Politics. Get off the soapbox already.

How the heck can converts change what the church IS anyway, answer me that...and if we converted why would that be our goal, as you seem to imply? It isnt mine. I embrace everything the Church has to offer, as my priest puts it --Scripture and Tradition, the two cornerstones. That implies, obviously, some ethnic assimilations, as the culture is so interwoven with the spirituality, as i see it. And what do you mean by "act like converts" you make no sense. You can tell just by how a person looks and or acts that they are not cradle born? Yes you will get some who wonder whay you are there, you will get snobs and cliques and such...but gee...thats what humans do...*shock* get over it.

but then i'm new to all this, so i am sure in your book my opinion counts for nothing.

[Matthew777]

What the heck? I didn't start this thread! 

[Mor Ephrem]

It was split. 

[Matthew777]

I believe that Israel deserves the absolute right to exist but that the Palestinians deserve their own free state. However, this will never happen if the terrorists have their way. Nothing will satisfy them short of the complete abolishment of the state of Israel.

It is imperitive for a Christian to support Isreal's right to exist. Any Christian who would favor the annihilation of Israel is, in my opinion, hardly a Christian at all.

[Mor Ephrem]

There's a difference between supporting the State of Israel and desiring the annihilation of Israel.  I don't support it, but I don't want to see it destroyed either.   

[Fr. David]

Wow. I agree with everything Matthew said.

I would say, though--and here I think we disagree--that Israel's right to exist is more from a human perspective (i.e., generic "love for neighbor" we're supposed to extend to all) rather than a specific divine decree from the Lord Himself, as I think the OT stuff addressed to "Israel" is now for the Church, not the Jews.

That having been said, though, like Mor I don't support Israel's actions; as a whole I think they've done a bad job of dealing with the "talents" they've been given.

[Matthew777]

I fail to see how an everlasting covenant would not be everlasting.

[Bogoliubtsy]

I fail to see how an everlasting covenant would not be everlasting.

It is everlasting. Christ made a New Covenent which overides the previous ones. The Church is the New Jerusalem.

[Matthew777]

Everlasting is irrevocable.

Romans 11
28
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

[Pravoslavbob]

Listen Bubbo..
I'm neither Racist nor Anti-Semitic..I never hated any Arabs.

it can exist in Madagascar.

Sdcheung,

Sorry, but your posts  in other threads and here have clearly shown that you are an unrepentant racist.  I will not talk to you again because of this.  I will pray for you.

Bob the sinner.

[sdcheung]

Sdcheung,

Sorry, but your posts in other threads and here have clearly shown that you are an unrepentant racist. I will not talk to you again because of this. I will pray for you.

Bob the sinner.

Goood..
Thank God.
I don't need your prayers.
and I'm not Racist. so...

Hmph..tell me to love Jews., You should told me to do that when I was still a protestant Christian Zionist. hehehe

[Donna Rose]

I don't need your prayers.

talk about arrogance...to state the obvious.

[Stavro]

I fail to see how an everlasting covenant would not be everlasting.

Because Israel , spiritually, means the Prince of God, or the family of God. The covenant is with the people of God forever. Israeli state is far from being the Nation of God, by deeds and by faith, nor can the Jewish people claim such honor any more, having rejected CHrist. The true heir of such title are the christians, and they are those who were singled out as the stars of heaven among the children of Abraham.

It seems the Zionism agenda really brought fruits. Just shows how repeated and relentless misrepresenatation of scripture without opposition works. One must admire the way the Zionism movement plans and executes. They have infiltrated the Protestant churches from within, making it a relgious duty to support Israel at any cost.

The only promise given to Israel in the NT is : " Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. " (Luke 13:35)

[Stavro]

I believe that Israel deserves the absolute right to exist but that the Palestinians deserve their own free state. However, this will never happen if the terrorists have their way. Nothing will satisfy them short of the complete abolishment of the state of Israel.

It is imperitive for a Christian to support Isreal's right to exist. Any Christian who would favor the annihilation of Israel is, in my opinion, hardly a Christian at all.

No christian prays for the annihilation of any state or people, but we should not confine our love to Israel alone. There is no special place for any nation in the NT. This was said by a Pharisee, a persecuter of the Church, a zealous Jew, who became the greatest teacher -imo- of all, and the great apostle.

[observer]

Many Protestants have been brought up with the notion that Israel is the chosen people,state of God. Just take a look at the Schofield version of the Bible . However this is NOT the teaching of the Church.  When the Jews said - His blood be upon us and upon our children - the covenant was broken.  The New Israel took on the convenant, which we as Orthodox Christians continue to observe today. That Israel exists is de facto but not de jure. War is evitable until the Antichrist comes to reign in Jerusalem. Then there will be peace but at what a price.  Zionism is a heresy. And please note that the God of the Christians is not necessarily the God of current Judaism.  The Talmud takes preference over the Bible that the Protestants live by. Unfortunately most of them don't know this.

[Nacho]

I'm by far a zionist myself and beleif the jews place as the "people of God" has been replaced by the new israel which is the christian church. For anyone that doesn't believe this just take a look at what Christ has to say about old isreal.

Revelations 2:9 " I know your works, tribulation, and poverty; and I know the blapshemy of those who say they are jews and are not, but are a synagague of satan.

Revelations 3:9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagague of satan, who say they are jews and are not, but lie indeed. I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

So we see Christ equates the jews of old israel who were still claiming to be God's chosen people as a synagague of satan when in fact the real jews of the new isreal was the fledgling christian church. This also came at a time when the jews were persecuting christians saying they were of the devil when in fact they were themselves which I find interesting. I do beleive that most of revelations and mathew 24 with prophecies of the destruction of the temple were for the purpose of the passing of the old isreal into the new which was fully fulfilled in AD 70 when these events took place and God brought a horrible judgement against isreal. Thier temple was destroyed just as mathew 24 and mark 13 described and more than 1 million jews were killed and the remaining scattered about or were taken as slaves by the romans.

It's unfortunate that some protestant sects buy into the whole zionist theology because scripture, church history, and even secular history tell us otherwise. I still beleive the jews deserve a homeland but not for some zionist endtimes plot. I think it's the right thing to do to allow these people to have some land to call thier own place. I don't endorse some of thier policies, but hope they will bend in the future to accomodate christians and paletstinians in that region. It's also sad to see people hating jews on this board because every group of people have thier problems so I don't see why the jews are singled out the most here. If anything, the islamo facist are causing the most problems in the world today which I think is a much bigger problem.   

[Matthew777]

If the destruction of Israel proves that the Jews are no longer God's people then doesn't the conquering of Orthodox nations by Islamic warlords prove that the Church is no longer of God?

[Nacho]

If the destruction of Israel proves that the Jews are no longer God's people then doesn't the conquering of Orthodox nations by Islamic warlords prove that the Church is no longer of God?

Huh??? I don't follow you on this one...

[Matthew777]

If the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. proves that the Jews are no longer God's chosen, then the destruction of Orthodox Christian nations proves we are no longer God's Church.

[Ibrahim]

If the destruction of Israel proves that the Jews are no longer God's people then doesn't the conquering of Orthodox nations by Islamic warlords prove that the Church is no longer of God?

Our nations have not been destroyed and we are not conquered. We are still here. If we were conquered we'd all be Muslims. When you are conquered you believe it and you take the trait of the invader. We've not done that. I don't think the Jews are not God people anymore. They always will be, just like the Arabs, Germans, Persians and all His other peoples. We are all of God. We are all one in Christ. The Jews (religious Jews) do not accept Jesus, that behavior is not of God because He sent Jesus. Jews are still Gods people. They're not better or more favored than anybody else is though. I don't buy this idea that Jews have claim over Arabs to anything. The Germans didn't have any more claim over Germanspeaking Poland than did the Poles. The "manifest destiny" attitude of the Zionists (to my country mind you) is in my view racist and openly hostile and will only lead to confict. Its just Jewish nationalism. Nationalism that requires hurting or removing other peoples is unChristian as far as I am concerned. (Im not argueing against you btw Im just adding my opinion from your comment  )

[J]

Hey, Ibrahim....hal tafham alluga ala'arabya?

[observer]

M777,
You missed it. His blood be upon us and our children - this is the breaking of the covenant - No more old Jews.  Now we ARE THE new jews! The Holy Church teaches this.  It's nothing to do with 70 A.D.

[Matthew777]

I'm still going to hold fast to my belief in the state of Israel.

[Nacho]

Mathew,

Did you see my previous post with scriptures that related to old isreal?? That pretty much sums it up for me. The jews suffered a horrible judgement from God for persecuting the true jews of the new israel in AD70. Have you studied revelations & mathew 24 and the fullfilment of the temple being destroyed in AD70 when those prophecies came to pass? You can even read a secular historian like Josephus and come to the conclusion that AD70 was the end of old israel when thier kingdom, religion, temple etc., crumbled in AD 70.

[Matthew777]

But was the siege of Constantinople the end of the Church?

[Pravoslavbob]

M777,
You missed it. His blood be upon us and our children - this is the breaking of the covenant - No more old Jews. Now we ARE THE new jews! The Holy Church teaches this.

This isn't correct. The Jews will always be the chosen people.  People cannot break a covenant with God, because God is always faithful to His word. Throughout the Old Testament, again and again, Israel is unfaithful to the covenant with the LORD, and God remains faithful. It is true that Israel sometimes pays a great price for its unfaithfulness, but God always remains faithful in the end. Matthew is right. God never takes back a covenant he has made.

We aren't Jews. But we are very much the new Israel, and have a direct link with the Israel of old. It's true, that, as other posters have noted, in a sense, the Jews don't get anything special anymore out of being the chosen people unless they accept the fufillment of the covenant in Christ, in which case they get nothing more than any Orthodox Christian. But really, this was always God's plan, anyway. That is, ultimately, He wanted to bring salvation to all the people of the world through the chosen people. Just because the other races weren't "chosen," didn't mean that God didn't care for them and want their salvation.

We should not be so quick to be so brash and bold about proclaiming that we are somehow "chosen" now. How often are we unfaithful? if Christ could say to the Jews that God was able to raise up children of Abraham from the rocks and stones, how much more careful should we be about the gift that has been given to us? After all, we have only been grafted on to the tree of Israel.

All this business about Jews being Christ-killers is really too much. (I'm not saying that other posters are necessarily saying this here.) Don't forget that the Romans played a hand in it too. Are we to believe that another race would not have done the same thing? What about us, if we were there? What would we have done? I won't go into it. I think you get my drift.

[Fr. David]

Bob, thanks for putting forth some qualification to Matthew's argument.

It's true that, though Scripture is clear that, as the "chosen people" thing goes, the Church, Jew and Gentile, is now the "royal priesthood," the "holy nation" of the most high God.  That much has been established.

I've said before that they deserve their own land--much as Nacho said (wow; I'm agreeing with Matthew, now Nacho!  What a week!!  )--but not because of divine decree.  But just as there are Scriptures that say that the unbelieving Jews have fallen away from their status as the Israel of God, there's also St. Paul's affirmation that God hasn't abandoned "his people" (referring to Jews as a whole).  He's taken them through so much and hasn't forgotten them; in fact, the prophecy is (according to Romans 11) that all of Israel--the term still used, at that time, for the physical Jews--shall be saved.  So he hasn't abandoned his people to never again be in the Kingdom, though many of His time that rejected him shall not enter the Kingdom of God except behind sinnners and Gentiles and only on the condition of confessing the Son of Man (Matt. 8:11-12; 21:31-32). 

In other words, Israel shall not see the Lord again until it says, "Blessed be the Name of the Lord" (Luke 13:35).  That word "until" in Greek is eos, and can either mean "not during all that time and not after," or it can mean, "not during all that time but immediately after."  So we know that Israel will not see the face of God in relationship as long as it does not confess Christ.  We have reason to believe from St. Paul that He will reveal Himself to the Jews in a special way at the end of it all.  Until then, however, the house of the Jews is left desolate during this, the time of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24).

[sdcheung]

talk about arrogance...to state the obvious.

If he's gonna accuse me of hating Arabs.. The Pure form of Anti-Semitism and being a Racist.
Then tell me he isn't talking to me then in the same breath tells me he's praying for me..I don't need that kind of prayer.
I won't be changing my mind anytime soon. 

[Ibrahim]

If he's gonna accuse me of hating Arabs.. The Pure form of Anti-Semitism and being a Racist.
Then tell me he isn't talking to me then in the same breath tells me he's praying for me..I don't need that kind of prayer.
I won't be changing my mind anytime soon.

Anti-Semitism is not hating Arabs and the idea that Arabs are "Semites" is based from the facist, Nazi, racialist ideology of Adolf Hitler. He dived the world into "Semites" (ARabs, Jews, etc) and "Ayrians" (Germans, Iranians, Englishmen, Scandinavians etc). Semites were inferior and Aryians superior. He wrote his Mein Kamf about how he hated the Semites and how he was anti-Semitic and how Germany was troubled by racially dangerous "Semites". However, when he needed Arab allies to control the Holy Lands and North Africa he did not hesitate to distingush that the "Semites" he hated and spoke of so much were JEWS not Arabs. This is why people say hatred of the Jewish people (who are children of God just as all the other peoples) antiSemitism. Being racist to Arabs is antiArabism, as was said by the Lebanese militias and the hate groups in modern Europe. Now people who hate the Jews use it to pretend they are not such. "I dont like Jews, not Arabs so Im not antiSemitic" that is a load of rubbish. It is antiSemitism in the historical and modern use and itis racism and hatred of a people for unChristian and unjustifyable reasons.

[sdcheung]

Anti-Semitism is not hating Arabs and the idea that Arabs are "Semites" is based from the facist, Nazi, racialist ideology of Adolf Hitler. He dived the world into "Semites" (ARabs, Jews, etc) and "Ayrians" (Germans, Iranians, Englishmen, Scandinavians etc). Semites were inferior and Aryians superior. He wrote his Mein Kamf about how he hated the Semites and how he was anti-Semitic and how Germany was troubled by racially dangerous "Semites". However, when he needed Arab allies to control the Holy Lands and North Africa he did not hesitate to distingush that the "Semites" he hated and spoke of so much were JEWS not Arabs. This is why people say hatred of the Jewish people (who are children of God just as all the other peoples) antiSemitism. Being racist to Arabs is antiArabism, as was said by the Lebanese militias and the hate groups in modern Europe. Now people who hate the Jews use it to pretend they are not such. "I dont like Jews, not Arabs so Im not antiSemitic" that is a load of rubbish. It is antiSemitism in the historical and modern use and itis racism and hatred of a people for unChristian and unjustifyable reasons.

well I'm sticking to that.

[Ibrahim]

well I'm sticking to that.

I'm going to pray for you too.

[sdcheung]

oh..no not another one.

I'm going to pray for you too.

Oh .. no not another one.

[Matthew777]

End the foolishness...

an-+ti-Sem-+ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemite

an-+ti-Sem-+i-+tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism


Are you going to start denying the Holocaust too?   

[sdcheung]

End the foolishness...

an-+ti-Sem-+ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemite

an-+ti-Sem-+i-+tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism


Are you going to start denying the Holocaust too?

anti-semitism is one who is against Arab Muslims/Orthodox
and yes, I have serious questions about the veracity and the number killed in the holocaust.
subject to modification as soon as the Jews give eqaul weight and recogniition to the Hanking Holocaust perpetrated by Japanese. and the Pontic-Asia Minor Holocaust of greeks perpetrated by Turks.

[Anastasios]

End the foolishness...

an-+ti-Sem-+ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemite

an-+ti-Sem-+i-+tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=antisemitism


Are you going to start denying the Holocaust too?

Oh no, you appealed to the DICTIONARY! Oh the debate is SETTLED NOW! LOL

Dude don't you konw about appeals from authority? You appeal to the dictionary but someone will ask you why that definition should be trusted. Dictionaries describe current usage, not what a word should mean or could mean. Anti-semitism can and should be expanded to mean discrimination against any Semite (Jew, Arab, Assyrian).

Anastasios

[sdcheung]

Oh no, you appealed to the DICTIONARY! Oh the debate is SETTLED NOW! LOL

Dude don't you konw about appeals from authority? You appeal to the dictionary but someone will ask you why that definition should be trusted. Dictionaries describe current usage, not what a word should mean or could mean. Anti-semitism can and should be expanded to mean discrimination against any Semite (Jew, Arab, Assyrian).

Anastasios

Assyrian and Aramaic

Revised Definition:

anti-semite denotes an antagonistic attitude towards a group of Semitic-speaking people including Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians

modern Jews are NOT Semitic...most have mixed with either Europeans or Asians (Turks, Mongols etc)

[Ibrahim]

Oh no, you appealed to the DICTIONARY! Oh the debate is SETTLED NOW! LOL

Dude don't you konw about appeals from authority? You appeal to the dictionary but someone will ask you why that definition should be trusted. Dictionaries describe current usage, not what a word should mean or could mean. Anti-semitism can and should be expanded to mean discrimination against any Semite (Jew, Arab, Assyrian).

Anastasios

I disagree as a "Semite". It is a lable that has little meaning in reality (there are no Semitic people, just languages and people that speak them) and was originally used only to refer to languages. If I hate Chinese people, I am not anti-Sino-Tibeatan or if I hate Italians I'm not anti-Romantic or if I hate Swedes Im not anti-Germanic. In reference to "racE" it was popularized by Nazis and other Euro fascists along with their prided "Ayrian". Why not do we call Europeans and Indians Ayrians? Why not if I dislike Westerners or Persians am I not hating AYRIAN NATIONS? Using Semitic to refer to "people" is falling into the trap of Hitler with his superior Ayrians and inferior Semites. Itis a peudo-sientific-racial term and I do not understand why people continue to use it as if it is legitamate to call people it. There is no Semitic race. Arabs are not a race, Jews are not. All of these groups are ethno-linguistic. There are Arabs who look like the blackest of black Africans and ones who have green eyes and blonde hair. Semitic is a patronizing term when applied to groups of people and quite insulting.

modern Jews are NOT Semitic...most have mixed with either Europeans or Asians (Turks, Mongols etc)

That's funny because there are no Semitic people in more.THey've all mixed with neighboring people. Arabs mixed with those same groups and with Berbers, Ethiopians, Tanzanians, Persians, Malays the list goes on and on. The idea of a 'Semitic" people is a fantasy propogated by racists.

[aurelia]

Sdcheung,

Sorry, but your posts in other threads and here have clearly shown that you are an unrepentant racist. I will not talk to you again because of this. I will pray for you.

Bob the sinner.

Ditto...and Sdcheung
And may i remind you that you are talling about ETHNICITY not RACE..if you want to get picky, we are (very generally speaking, in the peoples you are speaking of) Caucasian, as a race, check with your local university's anthropology depatrtment.

[sdcheung]

Ditto...and Sdcheung
And may i remind you that you are talling about ETHNICITY not RACE..if you want to get picky, we are (very generally speaking, in the peoples you are speaking of) Caucasian, as a race, check with your local university's anthropology depatrtment.

See my reply to Bob.

[Augustine]

Matthew,

I am a Christian Zionist.

I've always found this a curious position for Christians to take. I know that there can be many shades of this, with differing rationales, but my understanding is that the Zionist position breaks down into two basic versions...

Religious Zionism : This would be the position of those who believe the Jews have a right to their own state on religious grounds (basically, "God gave them the land", and unconditionally so).

Secular Zionism: This is the position of atheistical Jews, and those non-Jews who believe Jews "deserve" their own homeland, on the basis of "anti-Semitism" being such a problem that Jews will never be happy or safe unless they have their own state. Interestingly, this is the thinking of the original Zionists (who were all atheistical/secular in their orientation; it took a long time for Orthodox Jewry to get on board the Zionist cause, as it used to be commonly believed that it would only be with the "coming of Moschiach" that the Jews would regain the Holy Land) - "religious Zionism" is a later phenomenon.

I believe the arguments in favour of either position are wanting; particularly the "religious argument", and even more so from a Christian perspective. The Jews, while religiously/culturally semitic (and this is the only meaningful way of looking at it - as another poster wisely pointed out, the "racialist" views are distinctly modern, not to mention erroneous and dangerous), practice a religion in varying degrees of intensity (from ultra-Orthodox down to "Reform" and "Reconstructionist" Judaism) which is essentially the child of the Sanhedrin that betrayed the Lord and sent Him to His death - and it's been justifying that betrayal in various ways (ranging from denial to blasphemy) every since. Aside from age old Christian teaching that the Church is the continuation of the Old Testament Church (which, sadly, Evangelical Protestants basically deny), I find it hard to fathom how a Christian can accept the idea that an unfaithful people are the beneficiaries of promises which in the Old Testament are strictly conditional to their fidelity. For example, it was because of the unfaithfulness of the northern tribes, that they were invaded and dispersed by pagans - and later it was the ongoing faithlessness of the people which resulted in the expulsion of the Judahites (Jews proper) which resulted in their expulsion the first time around and the destruction of the first (Solomon's) Temple.

As for the secular argument, if we were to take it to heart (including accepting all of the premises at face value; which I do not, btw.) and apply it universally and equitably (though truthfully we are not supposed to do this), it would result in anarchy - since there are any number of disadvantaged people who could (and often do, but usually to no effect) throw up a fuss and demand they be settled in a land ruled by them and for them alone.  There are of course, many other well known injustices further associated with the formation of the modern state of Israel to be considered as well.

[Augustine]

RE: "Antisemitism"

There are some reasons why I typically quote the term "antisemitism", and otherwise refer to it in a less than enthusiastic way. It is, to my thinking, a poisoned word; it reflects a basic way of thinking which is at worst dangerous, and at best, disingenuine and politically manipulative.

As someone else wisely pointed out, no one is really "racially" a semite. While it is true that certain physical characteristics often do concentrate amongst particular ethnic groups, it is never so clear cut as to constitute a "race" - "race" at best is a generalization, at worst a dangerous fiction of recent origin.

Beside the fact that Jews have no monopoly on the identification of being "semites" (in fact I would say there are other peoples who in fact are far more deserving of the identification of being "semitic" - particularly when you consider most Jews are secular, and have taken on the customs, language, and many of the values/ideals of the non-semitic lands they live in), let us consider what is really being identified when people cry "anti-semite".

- Negative views/feelings about "Jewish culture" (which is many things, but obviously there is going to be a common core running throughout)

- Negative views/feelings about "Jewish religion" (which again, is many things, but with a basic core which allows it all to be lumped together in some wise)

All unflattering views men may hold about this or that person/people/country/religion/ideology, etc., fall under two categories - prejudice (prejudgement; holding to a position that is not informed), and informed opinion.

Prejudice in any situation is not good - but it is hardly unique to anti-Jewish sentiment. But what about those who on various counts find some/many things about Jewish culture and/or religion unsavory? Are these people "antisemites" as well? You bet! And that is the problem I have with "antisemitism" as a term we're all supposed to accept "as canon" - it's basically a licence to privilege for a certain group of people, to make them immune to almost any meaningful criticism. Yet consider that no such doggedly held aversion to criticism is held for any other group in our civilization - everything seems to be fair (and unfair!) game, no matter how crude the attack. Even many of the things social conservatives complain about as receiving "special treatment" (like homosexuals for example) do not come close to the level of manic "sacred cow" status as do Jewish culture and religion.

[Pravoslavbob]

Bob, thanks for putting forth some qualification to Matthew's argument.

Thanks Pedro.  I think you make some very interesting points in your post.

Bob

[Matthew777]

anti-Semitism   
Related: Judaism

(-ân&180;t-ô-s-òm-¦-¼t-¼z&180;em, -ân&180;t-½-) , form of prejudice against Jews , ranging from antipathy to violent hatred. Before the 19th cent., anti-Semitism was largely religious and was expressed in the later Middle Ages by sporadic persecutions and expulsions—notably the expulsion from Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella—and in severe economic and personal restrictions (see ghetto ). However, since Jews were generally restricted to the pursuit of occupations that were taboo, such as moneylending, the sentiment was also economic in nature.
http://encyclopedia.com/html/a1/antiS1emi.asp

[aurelia]

See my reply to Bob.

I did, and that is why i cant possibly take you seriously. I apologize for that because you seem very firm in your beliefs, but they are the sorts of things that have been proven to be dangerous in the course of history, not just for Jews, but for any persecuted people.

Oh, and thanks Matthew, that is exactly right, what you posted right before me.

[Elisha]

anti-Semitism
Related: Judaism

(-ân&180;t-ô-s-òm-¦-¼t-¼z&180;em, -ân&180;t-½-) , form of prejudice against Jews , ranging from antipathy to violent hatred. Before the 19th cent., anti-Semitism was largely religious and was expressed in the later Middle Ages by sporadic persecutions and expulsions—notably the expulsion from Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella—and in severe economic and personal restrictions (see ghetto ). However, since Jews were generally restricted to the pursuit of occupations that were taboo, such as moneylending, the sentiment was also economic in nature.
http://encyclopedia.com/html/a1/antiS1emi.asp

Matthew,
You can quote encyclopedias/dictionaries/etc. all you want, but they all just propogate the disingenuity (is that a word) of the word "antisemitism".  Again, the word replaced the more meaningful German word of Judenhass (or 'hating of Jews' translated to English).  "Antisemitism", if you look at the "Semite" part reveal what a bad replacement or choice it was to replace Judenhass.  All these dictionaries/encyclopedias/etc. just use modern usage - but don't really go into entymology and what the words really should mean.  As Augustine/Pedro have pointed out, they are very politically charged/abused/etc.

[Matthew777]

It is senseless for someone to be bigoted against the Jewish people and then say, "I'm not an anti-semite because I don't hate Arabs."

[Schultz]

I have serious questions about the veracity and the number killed in the holocaust.
subject to modification as soon as the Jews give eqaul weight and recogniition to the Hanking Holocaust perpetrated by Japanese.

Could you please give us some sources where a Jewish author, speaking for the entire Jewish ethnicity, denies these atrocities against humanity?

In fact, I think I'll deny that any atrocities were committed against those Orientals until this particular one accepts the reality of the Shoah. In fact, I'm going to start a campaign to discredit these claims. After all, who can trust what the Chinese say? You're all communists anyways and, as we know, communism is a Jewish conspiracy. Since the Chinese have bought into it, they're just as bad as those Jews anyways, so why should anyone trust what an Oriental like you has to say?

[Matthew777]

You're all communists anyways and, as we know, communism is a Jewish conspiracy.   

...and a Jesuit conspiracy.

[cizinec]

As I posted on the "original" thread,

I have noticed that our Serbian church is a lot more friendly to Jewish issues. I think that's because the Serbs, Jews and Romany were all put in the same concentration camps by the same groups of people. I've never heard any of these issues discussed by converts.

Please start your hatred of the Serbs and Romany now. I look forward to hearing your rascist comments.

P.S. According to modern linguistic theory, how a word is understood by those communicating "defines" that word. If someone defines "anti-semitism" as someone who hates Jews then that's what they mean when they use it in a statement. Trying to redefine another's word does not redefine their intended meaning. This tactic is generally used to set up "straw man" arguments.

Saying, "You're trying to condemn me as an anti-semite is wrong because I don't hate Arabs" is disingenuous when they are claiming that you are a rascist who hates Jews. The proper response would be, "Gosh, I'm an Orthodox Christian and I don't hate Jews. That would be a sin." I suppose another response could be, "You're right, I hate all Jews."

I would hate for anyone in the outside world to be able to come in and read these posts and think this is really what Orthodoxy teaches about a people.

I am completely disgusted with the biggoted rubbish here and hope that this entire thread is sent to file 13.

[cizinec]

As an afterthought,

I think it would be nice if all comments denying the fascist holocaust against the Jews or denying the horrific nature of the fascist holocaust against the Jews should be deleted.  There are enough here to defend the numbers slaughtered in holocausts against Orthodox peoples.  Considering the roles of some traditionally Orthodox peoples in the murder of Jews in WWII, I would think people here would be a lot more cautious. 

[Anastasios]

I have a better thought. I am closing this thread because it has gotten outrageous.

Anastasios

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