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Author Topic: Against Serafim of Sarov  (Read 5215 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dionysii
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« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2013, 12:22:06 AM »

I would appreciate it if you would explain it to me how a saint (any EO saint) is considered a Nikonian saint. What are requirements?

First, I and others use the name Nikon for lack of a better name because he was the leading representative of this camp during the schism.  This applies to the Patr Constantinople and Moscow Patr indicriminately of their national distinction.  They are in communion and in the same camp as far as this issue and fall under the category of Nikonian.  By Nikonian, I mean the post 1666 Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow as well other synods in communion with them (i.e. synod of Greece) (also included are the Old Calendarists who were in communion with the rest of these until the early 20th century).  

Persons canonized as saints by these Nikonian synods after 1666 are whom I consider Nikonian saints.  After this date, two opposing churches with different traditions existed including two different sets of saints.  

Hope this helps.  The saints of the early Church are not part of the contention here since both sides accept them.  
What I do question is the legitimacy of post-1666 Nikonian saints which includes Russia's Optina brotherhood and the Greek Kollyvades.  
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« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2013, 12:36:19 AM »

Dionysii, you are usually good about thinking outside of the box. Are you capable of doing so here?

I appreciate your comments. 
As you might have perceived, I am newer to the Old believers and have had less time to accumulate the same level and quality of knowledge about this particular controversy as I have on some of the others of which you might be thinking.  Of course, the truth remains what it is reguardless of my lack of eloquency and destitution of interesting knowledge wherewith to express it. 

To answer your question more precisely, I would venture that you will find my arguments on this particular topic more cultivated, interesting, and even characteristically "outside the box" as you put it in a few years time.  I'll still be arguing the same thing, mind you, but I estimate it will take time to have the form and quality I understand you to speak of.  Rome wasn't built in a day. 
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« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2013, 01:10:17 AM »

Persons canonized as saints by these Nikonian synods after 1666 are whom I consider Nikonian saints.  After this date, two opposing churches with different traditions existed including two different sets of saints.  
I have observed several clues that indicate what determines saintly status is very different for these two traditions.  More specifically, the Nikonian tradition appears much more liberal and eclectic.  The liberal attitude towards smoking, for example, is unthinkable with Old Believer laymen - let alone a saint.  I am persuaded that this liberal attitude has characterized Nikonian attitudes towards other issues as well and Nikonian morality generally. 

To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   
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« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2013, 01:52:17 AM »

Nice...my patron saint was a habitual smoker and drinker! I wondered why after all these years I had to hit the men's smoke shop a few times a week and sip some good whiskey to boot as well. It's quite the normal routine and glad to see I have something in common with him besides the Orthodox faith.  Cool 
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« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2013, 06:56:51 AM »

To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

What on earth...?
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« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2013, 07:09:05 AM »

Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false


Are you indicative of what represents these "old believers"? I have never seen a sane example yet, I hope I am wrong but you all seem to be in nned of having your heads examined. you seem to be a pathetic bunch of babbling fools.
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« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2013, 07:11:35 AM »

This is getting more and more ridiculous.
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« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2013, 07:19:22 AM »

I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.
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« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2013, 08:12:49 AM »

I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?
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« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2013, 08:26:42 AM »

I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Definitely not pipeweed. That was introduced by the Blessed Reuel. Cheesy
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« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2013, 08:27:28 AM »

Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
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« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2013, 08:56:26 AM »

I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Dunhill's My Mixture 965. 
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« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2013, 08:57:29 AM »

I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Definitely not pipeweed. That was introduced by the Blessed Reuel. Cheesy

Nope, no weed.  I'm not a luuz'r.
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« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2013, 10:31:32 AM »

Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Flat Earth? When did that happen?
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« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2013, 10:47:33 AM »

Although I was not churched when I was young, that matter was never a question for me.  I always believed in God, but I never thought about it much when I was younger.

My personal thoughts are that I came to disagree with what some people claim is scientific fact.
I was briefly in a protestant fundamentalist Church when I was searching for a genuine Church many years ago, and they gave me a bible commentary (by MacDonald as I recall), and I had an incident which led to a new view of the cosmos.

I expected that commentary to be a work of God, and as I began a study of Ecclesiastes, I read that his commentary became weak and limp wristed when speaking about a verse that would imply geocentrism if taken literally.  I became quite angry that the commentary which I placed so much faith in was so manifestly uncertain about science or any thing else in the bible.  I perceived that MacDonald doubted a part of the bible, and I considered his commentary worthless and threw it in the trash.

Although I had never even bothered to think about it before (and of course still consider it irrelevant to salvation), I took the position that what the bible said about those things was inerrant, and I became a geocentrist that night because that was consistent with the bible's teaching.  It would not matter to me if heliocentrism had been the way it was, but it was not the case.  Pretty every one (atheists and protestants alike) disagreed.  Because of the attitude of some people (particularly at Church), I was motivated to go to the extent of ignoring technology to make a realistic experiment and reasoned that my own eyes observed that the sun moved across the sky every day.  The sun is moving and not the earth.  I reckoned that if modern science is so allegedly true, then why does it need a crutch like technology or some textbook to brainwash people about it?

I looked far and wide for a geocentric organization of any kind and found nothing except for the flat earth society which I considered too extreme and good bit beyond what I was searching for, but which I ultimately contacted because I knew of nothing else. They sent me a flyer (this was in the mid-1990's) from which I discovered the existence of an english flat earth movement in the nineteenth century which was based on a book written in 1865 by a guy who had taken the time to tediously develop astute refutations to all objections to that astronomy. 

I got the book through interlibrary loan and photocopied it.  I was converted by the second chapter.


I remembered a reference to Cosmas Indicopleustes in Webster's Biographical Dictionary.  He was an Egyptian monk at Saint Catherine's monastery in Sinai who wrote a book defending the early Byzantine Christian view of the world (which turned out to be flat) against the pagan view which was globular.  His book had been translated into english in 1897, and I photocopied it at a local university library.

That aroused my interest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and thus it did play a part in my conversion to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2013, 10:55:04 AM »

Although I was not churched when I was young, that matter was never a question for me.  I always believed in God, but I never thought about it much when I was younger.

My personal thoughts are that I came to disagree with what some people claim is scientific fact.
I was briefly in a protestant fundamentalist Church when I was searching for a genuine Church many years ago, and they gave me a bible commentary (by MacDonald as I recall), and I had an incident which led to a new view of the cosmos.

I expected that commentary to be a work of God, and as I began a study of Ecclesiastes, I read that his commentary became weak and limp wristed when speaking about a verse that would imply geocentrism if taken literally.  I became quite angry that the commentary which I placed so much faith in was so manifestly uncertain about science or any thing else in the bible.  I perceived that MacDonald doubted a part of the bible, and I considered his commentary worthless and threw it in the trash.

Although I had never even bothered to think about it before (and of course still consider it irrelevant to salvation), I took the position that what the bible said about those things was inerrant, and I became a geocentrist that night because that was consistent with the bible's teaching.  It would not matter to me if heliocentrism had been the way it was, but it was not the case.  Pretty every one (atheists and protestants alike) disagreed.  Because of the attitude of some people (particularly at Church), I was motivated to go to the extent of ignoring technology to make a realistic experiment and reasoned that my own eyes observed that the sun moved across the sky every day.  The sun is moving and not the earth.  I reckoned that if modern science is so allegedly true, then why does it need a crutch like technology or some textbook to brainwash people about it?

I looked far and wide for a geocentric organization of any kind and found nothing except for the flat earth society which I considered too extreme and good bit beyond what I was searching for, but which I ultimately contacted because I knew of nothing else. They sent me a flyer (this was in the mid-1990's) from which I discovered the existence of an english flat earth movement in the nineteenth century which was based on a book written in 1865 by a guy who had taken the time to tediously develop astute refutations to all objections to that astronomy. 

I got the book through interlibrary loan and photocopied it.  I was converted by the second chapter.


I remembered a reference to Cosmas Indicopleustes in Webster's Biographical Dictionary.  He was an Egyptian monk at Saint Catherine's monastery in Sinai who wrote a book defending the early Byzantine Christian view of the world (which turned out to be flat) against the pagan view which was globular.  His book had been translated into english in 1897, and I photocopied it at a local university library.

That aroused my interest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and thus it did play a part in my conversion to the Orthodox Church.
Oh... Well, thank you.
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« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2013, 11:23:42 AM »

Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.

Thanks for your post; I was about to criticize him severely. Now, I see that the poor fellow needs our prayers.
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« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2013, 01:38:57 PM »

Thanks for your post; I was about to criticize him severely. Now, I see that the poor fellow needs our prayers.

It appears that we both think the other's beliefs are greatly in error.
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« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »

Thanks for your post; I was about to criticize him severely. Now, I see that the poor fellow needs our prayers.

It appears that we both think the other's beliefs are greatly in error.

Do you live in Russia?
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« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »

Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

So is the legend of the appearance of tobacco (created by Satan to tempt the faithful) considered true by Old Believers?  This is a serious question, since you cite this book.
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« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2013, 02:39:24 PM »

Do you live in Russia?

No.  When I finished a tour with the US Navy in the submarine service a few years ago, I took six months of unemployment which I used to travel the world visiting Orthodox Christian churches and places of interest such as churches in Hong Kong and the hill of Mar Toma where Saint Thomas was martyred in India as well as many churches throughout Ethiopia and Egypt.  I finished the trip by spending a year in old calendar Greek monasteries (Matthewite). 

As the amount of my funding had it, I did not include Russia in my trip at that time (while I was still with the Nikonians).
Perhaps this was the providence of God.
I definitely plan to visit Russia.  My fiancee and I are considering getting married in Russia (in a Bela Krinits Church, of course).
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« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2013, 02:52:49 PM »

To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

What on earth...?

By this, I mean the Nikonian church has gotten worse over time.  Sergius is a reference to Stalin's patriarch Sergius Stragorodsky whose oecumenism with western heretics and general lack of spirituality characterizes this group today more so than Patriarch Nikon of the seventeenth century. 

The Nikonians seem to be losing even that little bit which they had.   They are going in the wide way feared by this Orthodox Christian from Spain:

"Former catholic struggling to be an Orthodox in Spain.
The chair of St Peter is vacant and Western Romans are forsaken to their fate, without a Patriarch who watch over them, deprived of all. No hope remain for my land.

Our sins have destroyed all trace of our previous glory and no one even remembers the time when we still stood up to the enemies of the faith.There are no enough tears to wash out the blood of my brothers dead. And those who still walk in this world can’t see that they are trampling the bones and the blood of their own Fathers.

My land will never recover his Orthodox inheritance, the only orthodoxs in Western Romania are the brethren than come like immigrants. There is a Sin that never can be forgiven, that’s the sin of my people. I hope that the Eastern lands don’t stumble into the same stone than us. I really think that they are the only hope to the world."

http://yuri-rimsky.tumblr.com/post/58244043026/on-account-of-the-angels-why-i-cover-my-head-by
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« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2013, 02:53:19 PM »

Dionysii, are you an American convert?
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« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2013, 03:01:26 PM »

Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.
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« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2013, 03:10:00 PM »

Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.
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« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2013, 03:12:12 PM »

Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.

Oh no!  The R word strikes again. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2013, 03:16:46 PM »

To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

What on earth...?

By this, I mean the Nikonian church has gotten worse over time.  Sergius is a reference to Stalin's patriarch Sergius Stragorodsky whose oecumenism with western heretics and general lack of spirituality characterizes this group today more so than Patriarch Nikon of the seventeenth century. 

The Nikonians seem to be losing even that little bit which they had.   They are going in the wide way feared by this Orthodox Christian from Spain:

"Former catholic struggling to be an Orthodox in Spain.
The chair of St Peter is vacant and Western Romans are forsaken to their fate, without a Patriarch who watch over them, deprived of all. No hope remain for my land.

Our sins have destroyed all trace of our previous glory and no one even remembers the time when we still stood up to the enemies of the faith.There are no enough tears to wash out the blood of my brothers dead. And those who still walk in this world can’t see that they are trampling the bones and the blood of their own Fathers.

My land will never recover his Orthodox inheritance, the only orthodoxs in Western Romania are the brethren than come like immigrants. There is a Sin that never can be forgiven, that’s the sin of my people. I hope that the Eastern lands don’t stumble into the same stone than us. I really think that they are the only hope to the world."

http://yuri-rimsky.tumblr.com/post/58244043026/on-account-of-the-angels-why-i-cover-my-head-by
Despite your many travels, I think you need to get around some more.
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« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »

Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.

I'm not blaming you for anything. And actually, I do not think not being Russian is a bad thing (I even have a T-shirt saying "Thanks God, I'm not Russian"). Your point?
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« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »

Not that I always agree with Michal, but I don't think he's being racist here.  You have painted almost the entire Eastern Orthodox Church as "Nikonian" and "Sergianist" and basically *not the Orthodox Church*.  Unless I've missed something, the only real Orthodox according to you are the Old Believers, and that's an exclusively Russian phenomenon.  Theirs is a particular form of Russian Church and culture, while all the others you have dismissed as non-Orthodox have many cultures and traditions.  

It's not a jump to presume that joining such a group would entail to a great extent "becoming Russian", and it is not strange to marvel that non-Russians would be attracted to the faith and lifestyle, question why, etc.    
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« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2013, 03:28:50 PM »

Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.
There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
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« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »

Not that I always agree with Michal, but I don't think he's being racist here.  You have painted almost the entire Eastern Orthodox Church as "Nikonian" and "Sergianist" and basically *not the Orthodox Church*.  Unless I've missed something, the only real Orthodox according to you are the Old Believers
This much is accurate.  They're certainly not Avvakumites.
As to calling the followers of Nikon the Eastern Orthodox Church, I do not believe they are the Eastern Orthodox Church. 
The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   

  the Old Believers, and that's an exclusively Russian phenomenon.
That is false.  Old Believer parishes have always existed in parts of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey.  Old Believer Bela Krinitsa parishes exist today in the United States and South American countries as well as western europe. 
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« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2013, 03:37:26 PM »

There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
I appreciate your admitting that.  That says a mouthful.

Postscript:
If this is true, then I intend to broadcast it outside of this forum.  It says a lot about the nature of this forum.
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« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2013, 05:39:24 PM »

The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   

If that were true, they would not be completely dependent upon the "Nikonians" for their orders.
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« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2013, 05:52:47 PM »

The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   
If that were true, they would not be completely dependent upon the "Nikonians" for their orders.

If you better understood apostolic succession, then you would not say that.
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« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2013, 05:56:25 PM »

The issue of frequency of communion is another difference. 

Prior to the Kollyvades, it appears the Nikonians and Old Believers had the same practice. 
This is yet another area in which the change in the newer Nikonian practice conforms with trends in the Vatican's world: 

Pope Pius X's 1905 Decree on Frequency of Communion
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWFREQ.HTM
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« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2013, 06:02:33 PM »

Prior to the Kollyvades, it appears the Nikonians and Old Believers had the same practice. 
This is yet another area in which the change in the newer Nikonian practice conforms with trends in the Vatican's world:  

Pope Pius X's 1905 Decree on Frequency of Communion
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWFREQ.HTM

Er, I thought the Kollyvades came before Pope Pius X...  Huh

They preceded him by one century or so.
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« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2013, 06:38:46 PM »

They did. 
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« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2013, 06:43:43 PM »

They did. 

So then it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it, but if so - good for them! 
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« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2013, 06:49:31 PM »

it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 
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« Reply #129 on: August 27, 2013, 07:00:20 PM »

There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
I appreciate your admitting that.  That says a mouthful.

Postscript:
If this is true, then I intend to broadcast it outside of this forum.  It says a lot about the nature of this forum.
Go ahead and broadcast whatever you want about our forum. Maybe your efforts will draw more traffic here so people can actually see for themselves what this forum is about, rather than just take what you have to say about us at face value. Grin
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« Reply #130 on: August 27, 2013, 07:13:24 PM »

Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Flat Earth? When did that happen?

IIRC it's in the Cosmos thread. Scary stuff.
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« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2013, 07:18:25 PM »

it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 

That is an absurd claim. You just might as well say that we are so, because we both believe in the intercession of the saints.

Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker.
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« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2013, 07:20:00 PM »

Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Flat Earth? When did that happen?

IIRC it's in the Cosmos thread. Scary stuff.

Yeah, TheTrisagion showed me.
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« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »

I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Once again, there is no evidence St. Seraphim was a smoker. Why give credence to the false claims of schismatics and enemies of the Church?
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« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2013, 07:29:35 PM »

it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it
Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 
That is an absurd claim.

It's true.  They go to church together and pray together - all the time. 
They have communed together for many decades, and everybody knows it and sees it.

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