Author Topic: Against Serafim of Sarov  (Read 6676 times)

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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2013, 03:32:53 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2013, 03:37:32 PM »
^St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in probably the most famous EO book on monasticism in contemporary times, basically excused tobacco use, saying that if you couldn't give it up that you should at least use it in private so as not to tempt others.

Does this not show the depths of depravity that the EO have fallen to since the pure Old believers left?  8)

 8)

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2013, 03:51:10 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

That is ridiculous. We can't stop people from venerating Orthodox saints and why should we?

I'm sorry, but all this seems to me like a really bad attempt to demonize a person.
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Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2013, 03:55:04 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

Then based on your logic while EO except old rite is in apostasy...no, I don't think so. Especially silly it sounds that because of smoking that we should not think of him as a saint...if Catholics praise Jesus, does it mean that we should stop? Come on D. I know you mean well, but there is a need to look at the context here. The only sin worth questioning that comes to my head at the moment (from our human reasoning) is whether that individual was confessing the faith "correctly"...now, smoking, drinking or any other such things do necessary mean that a person is not a saint...Beloved St. Mary of Egypt is perhaps the best example...I am confident you will agree that her sin was greater if we really have to compare...but only God knows what in our hearts...

Offline Nephi

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2013, 04:02:02 PM »
is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

So wait, venerating St. George is a mark of ecumenism too?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2013, 04:08:32 PM »
I was not aware that all saints were required to have the same level of sinlessness as the Theotokos before they could be canonized.

But vices do not have to be made up from lies in order to advance one's God-hating agenda.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2013, 04:11:49 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.


Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2013, 04:13:15 PM »
^St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in probably the most famous EO book on monasticism in contemporary times, basically excused tobacco use, saying that if you couldn't give it up that you should at least use it in private so as not to tempt others.

Does this not show the depths of depravity that the EO have fallen to since the pure Old believers left?  8)

I'm sure one could find a lot more interesting stuff on the depravity of the raskol'niki.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2013, 04:14:37 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

That is ridiculous. We can't stop people from venerating Orthodox saints and why should we?

I'm sorry, but all this seems to me like a really bad attempt to demonize a person.

And to justify their own idolatry.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2013, 05:16:15 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.

Indicative of his perverted faith, Nikolai Velimirovich clearly praised the prophets of non-Christian false religions including Lao Tse, Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster:

"The wise man of China admonishes my soul to be peaceful and still, and to wait for the Tao to act within her.  Glory be the memory of Lao-tse, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The wise man of India teaches my soul not to be afraid of suffering, but through the arduous and relentless drilling in purification and prayer to elevate herself to the One on high, who will come out to greet her and manifest to her His face and His power.  Glorious be the memory of Krishna, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The royal son of India teaches my soul to empty herself completely of every seed and crop of the world, to abandon all the serpentine allurements of frail and shadowy matter, and then - in vacuity, tranquillity, purity and bliss - to await nirvana.  Blessed be the memory of Buddha, the royal son and inexorable teacher of his people!

The thunderous wise man of Persia tells my soul that there is nothing in the world except light and darkness, and that the soul must break free from the darkness as the day does from the night.  For the sons of light are conceived from the light, and the sons of darkness are conceived from the darkness.  Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster, the great prophet of his people!"


http://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.com/2012/06/st-nikolai-velimirovich-on.html

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2013, 05:22:20 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.

Indicative of his perverted faith, Nikolai Velimirovich clearly praised the prophets of non-Christian false religions including Lao Tse, Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster:

"The wise man of China admonishes my soul to be peaceful and still, and to wait for the Tao to act within her.  Glory be the memory of Lao-tse, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The wise man of India teaches my soul not to be afraid of suffering, but through the arduous and relentless drilling in purification and prayer to elevate herself to the One on high, who will come out to greet her and manifest to her His face and His power.  Glorious be the memory of Krishna, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The royal son of India teaches my soul to empty herself completely of every seed and crop of the world, to abandon all the serpentine allurements of frail and shadowy matter, and then - in vacuity, tranquillity, purity and bliss - to await nirvana.  Blessed be the memory of Buddha, the royal son and inexorable teacher of his people!

The thunderous wise man of Persia tells my soul that there is nothing in the world except light and darkness, and that the soul must break free from the darkness as the day does from the night.  For the sons of light are conceived from the light, and the sons of darkness are conceived from the darkness.  Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster, the great prophet of his people!"


http://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.com/2012/06/st-nikolai-velimirovich-on.html

And did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2013, 05:35:25 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.

Indicative of his perverted faith, Nikolai Velimirovich clearly praised the prophets of non-Christian false religions including Lao Tse, Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster:

Those quotes are totally taken out of context: for St. Nikolai's view on these matters, see his Iznad Istoka i Zapada (Above East and West).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 05:37:54 PM by Romaios »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2013, 05:45:03 PM »
The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.


Are you indicating an actual book or essay by that name?

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2013, 05:53:37 PM »
did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
They did not take from them as if they needed to learn truths from them. 
Some Church Fathers did indeed quote specific doctrines which were true in order for their audience to identify with a part of their teaching.

However, I am unfamiliar with any Church Fathers glorifying the memory or either Zoroaster, Lao Tse, Buddha, or Krishna.
The Church Fathers did the opposite of the Nikonian Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich. 

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2013, 05:57:48 PM »
Those quotes are totally taken out of context

No. You speak falsely.

The Bishop Velimirovich said "Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."  Did he not?
How is that passage out of context?

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2013, 06:02:32 PM »
did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
They did not take from them as if they needed to learn truths from them. 
Some Church Fathers did indeed quote specific doctrines which were true in order for their audience to identify with a part of their teaching.

However, I am unfamiliar with any Church Fathers glorifying the memory or either Zoroaster, Lao Tse, Buddha, or Krishna.
The Church Fathers did the opposite of the Nikonian Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich. 

Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed... well, maybe Zoroaster and Buddha to a limited degree. And as Romaios said, these quotes probably shouldn't be read for themselves.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2013, 06:11:57 PM »
Those quotes are totally taken out of context

No. You speak falsely.

The Bishop Velimirovich said "Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."  Did he not?
How is that passage out of context?


This is on the very page you referred to:

Quote
Do not slay the prophets sent to you, my soul, for their graves contain not them, but those who slew them.

Wash and cleanse yourself; become tranquil amid the turbulent sea of the world, and keep within yourself the counsels of the prophets sent to you.  Surrender yourself entirely to the One on high and say to the world:  "I have nothing for you."

Even the most righteous of the sons of men, who believe in you, are merely feeble shadows which, like the righteous Joseph, walk in your shadow.  For mortality begets mortality and not life.  Truly I say to you: earthly husbands are mistaken when they say that they give life. They do not give it but ruin it.  They push life into the red sea and drown it, and beforehand they wrap it in darkness and make it a diabolical illusion.  There is no life, O soul, unless it comes from the Holy Spirit.  Nor is there any reality in the world, unless it comes down from heaven.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2013, 06:28:31 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html


"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich


He speaks for himself.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2013, 06:36:29 PM »
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed...
A bit off topic, but I am finding that the Panarion of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis is rather astute.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2013, 06:38:05 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html


"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich


He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2013, 06:41:28 PM »
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed...
A bit off topic, but I am finding that the Panarion of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis is rather astute.
Haven't read it yet. Where does it mention Buddha?
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2013, 06:53:01 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html

"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.

I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis. 

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3: 
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2013, 06:56:01 PM »
I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis. 

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3: 
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf

On the Pseudo-Clement you quoted:

Quote
The original author shows a detailed knowledge of the towns on the Phoenician coast from Caesarea to Antioch. He was an Arian, and Arianism had its home in the civil diocese of the Orient. He uses the Praeparatio Evangelica of Eusebius of Caesarea (written about 313). In 325 that historian mentions the dialogues of Peter and Appion as just published — presumably in his own region; these were probably the nucleus of the larger work completed by the same hand a few years later. Citations of Pseudo-Clement are by the Palestinian Epiphanius, who found the romance among the Ebionites of Palestine; by St. Jerome, who had dwelt in the Syrian desert and settled at Bethlehem; by the travelled Rufinus; by the Apostolical Constitutions, compiled in Syria or Palestine. The work is rendered into Syriac before 411. The Arian author of the Opus imperfectum cited it freely. It was interpolated by a Eunomian about 365–70. All these indications suggest an Arian author before 350 in the East, probably not far from Caesarea.

The author, though an Arian, probably belonged nominally to the Catholic Church. He wrote for the heathens of his day, and observed the stiff and often merely formal disciplina arcani which the 4th century enforced. Atonement, grace, sacraments are omitted for this cause only. "The true Prophet" is not a name for Christ used by Christians, but the office of Christ which the author puts forward towards the pagan world. He shows Peter keeping the evening agape and Eucharist secret from Clement when unbaptized; it was no doubt a Eucharist of bread and wine, not of bread and salt.

Source

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2013, 07:01:52 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html

"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.

I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis.  

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3:  
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf
I still do not follow where you are going. Nimrod and Nebrod are two variations of the same name and What Saint Epiphanius seems to be doing is seperating Zoroaster and Nimrod from each other. We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 07:03:03 PM by Ansgar »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2013, 07:09:55 PM »
St. Clement of Rome... he was one of the numerous Church Fathers who use the pagan evil wicked dastardly myth of the rising Phoenix, right?  8)

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2013, 07:27:49 PM »
On the Pseudo-Clement you quoted:

Quote
The original author shows a detailed knowledge of the towns on the Phoenician coast from Caesarea to Antioch. He was an Arian, and Arianism had its home in the civil diocese of the Orient. He uses the Praeparatio Evangelica of Eusebius of Caesarea (written about 313). In 325 that historian mentions the dialogues of Peter and Appion as just published — presumably in his own region; these were probably the nucleus of the larger work completed by the same hand a few years later. Citations of Pseudo-Clement are by the Palestinian Epiphanius, who found the romance among the Ebionites of Palestine; by St. Jerome, who had dwelt in the Syrian desert and settled at Bethlehem; by the travelled Rufinus; by the Apostolical Constitutions, compiled in Syria or Palestine. The work is rendered into Syriac before 411. The Arian author of the Opus imperfectum cited it freely. It was interpolated by a Eunomian about 365–70. All these indications suggest an Arian author before 350 in the East, probably not far from Caesarea.

The author, though an Arian, probably belonged nominally to the Catholic Church. He wrote for the heathens of his day, and observed the stiff and often merely formal disciplina arcani which the 4th century enforced. Atonement, grace, sacraments are omitted for this cause only. "The true Prophet" is not a name for Christ used by Christians, but the office of Christ which the author puts forward towards the pagan world. He shows Peter keeping the evening agape and Eucharist secret from Clement when unbaptized; it was no doubt a Eucharist of bread and wine, not of bread and salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine_literature

You assert that the text I quoted was not written by Saint Clement, and you quote a wikipedia article against his authorship.
According to your own quote, Saints Jerome and Epiphanius accepted this work as genuinely written by Saint Clement of Rome.
No disrespect, but I prefer the company of saints to the folks at wikipedia!  :) 

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2013, 07:35:53 PM »
You assert that the text I quoted was not written by Saint Clement, and you quote a wikipedia article against his authorship.
According to your own quote, Saints Jerome and Epiphanius accepted this work as genuinely written by Saint Clement of Rome.
No disrespect, but I prefer the company of saints to the folks at wikipedia!  :) 

It's not just wikipedia - it's the general scientific consensus that the writings you quoted do not belong to the same St. Clement who wrote the Epistle(s) to the Corinthians. But I guess that wouldn't mean much to you, anyway. They rely on Eusebius of Caesarea and are tainted by Arianism.

The Epistle of Judas quotes Enoch. Do you propose we should invest that apocryphon with Scriptural authority as well?

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2013, 07:40:14 PM »
We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.


We took a brief detour into relevant patristic literature.  
I think the side conversation about Nikolai Velimirovich has been directly relevant because the essence of the opening post about Seraphim of Sarov concerns the legitimacy of Nikonian saints - a category to which Bishop Nikolai belongs according to many Nikonian denominations.  Matthewites are the only Nikonian synod that currently come to mind of which I am certain would not consider him a saint.    

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »
It's not just wikipedia - it's the general scientific consensus ...
Yeah...we definitely have a different way of evaluating what constitutes truth.

If you can show that it's not then I'll give you due credit. 
I have not investigated it deeply, but the fact that your own source says that Saints Jerome and Saints Epiphanius believed it was genuine is the factor that buried the subject in my book.  I haave other things to do in life.  That issue will have to be explained for starters if I was ever to consider otherwise. 

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2013, 07:52:30 PM »

I have not investigated it deeply, but the fact that your own source says that Saints Jerome and Saints Epiphanius believed it was genuine is the factor that buried the subject in my book. 

It doesn't say as much - St. Epiphanius quotes/alludes to the Pseudo-Clementina, but it's not clear whether he credits St. Clement for them. He doesn't mention him in the excerpt you brought up about Nimrod/Nebrod.  
  

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2013, 08:03:38 PM »
We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.


We took a brief detour into relevant patristic literature.  
I think the side conversation about Nikolai Velimirovich has been directly relevant because the essence of the opening post about Seraphim of Sarov concerns the legitimacy of Nikonian saints - a category to which Bishop Nikolai belongs according to many Nikonian denominations.  Matthewites are the only Nikonian synod that currently come to mind of which I am certain would not consider him a saint.    
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2013, 09:51:35 PM »
The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.


Are you indicating an actual book or essay by that name?

The link that you posted was to the Google Books preview of 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William B. Husband.  This is a text book published by Rowman and Littlefield
https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780842028561 and is described thusly:

" By integrating the human dimension into Russian history, this lively textbook introduces Russian social history since 1861 to readers in provocative and interesting new ways. The essays in this unique collection are based largely on previously classified Russian archival information available only since 1991. Bringing in the perspectives of individuals and groups usually overlooked, the authors give the reader a grassroots view of modern Russia. The Human Tradition in Modern Russia is an ideal for courses on Russian history and civilization and modern European history."
 
Here is the first part of the Table of Contents:

"Chapter 1 Introduction: The Persistence of Memory in Modern Russia
Part 2 I. Reform, Modernization, and Imperial Society
Chapter 3 Krylov vs. Krylova: 'Sexual Incapacity' and Divorce in Tsarist Russia
Chapter 4 Old Believers in Imperial Russia: A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco"

Bold has been added for emphasis.  That is the chapter, which you cited, that has the passage about St. Serafim of Sarov and that his death was said by Old Believers according to the text to have been due to smoke/tobacco.  The text plainly states that it was Old Believers who reported that various people in the ROC were smokers and that their deaths were due to tobacco. 

Such reports by persons who were not close to St. Serefim are dubious, to say the least, without some form of support.  The point of the essay as shown in the title and in reading the pages around your chosen passage is to give information on one group's views on tobacco and how these could be used against another group with whom they had a history of deep disagreement and enmity, to say the least.

So the material that you provided is not about "facts" on the passing of St. Serefim of Sarov but about what a rival religious group SAID/WROTE about him.  Their story/rumour/ etc.

There's a difference.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2013, 09:55:28 PM »
I have several reliable sources indicating that the priest Avvakum was a big stoner and died listening to Phish.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2013, 10:00:38 PM »
That's in St Paul's Letter to the Antiochians, right? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2013, 10:12:21 PM »
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2013, 10:28:37 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

wait, he actually died from smoking a pipe? Like are you serious? Pipe smoking? Nothing you ever say or post will ever hold any weight with me whatsoever.

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2013, 10:29:09 PM »
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.


The quote is authentic. It's from Prayers by the Lake, no. XLVIII. Here's the original Serbian:

Quote
Сви пророци од постанка вапију души мојој, да се створи девојком и спреми за пријем Сина Божанског у пречисту утробу своју.

Да постане лествица, низ коју ће Бог сићи у свет, и човек узићи к Богу.

Да исуши у себи црвено море крвних страсти, те да човек - роб може прећи у земљу обећану, земљу слободе.

Китајски мудрац опомиње душу моју, да буде мирна и непокретна и да чека, да Тао дејствује у њој. Слава нека је Лао - Цеу, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Индијски мудрац учи душу моју, да се не плаши страдања, но да се кроз тешко и истрајно вежбање, кроз чишћење и молитву, диже Вишњему, који ће јој изићи на сусрет и показати јој лице Своје и силу Своју. Слава нека је Кришни, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Царски син Индије учи душу моју, да се испразни потпуно од свега семена и усева света, и отпадне од свих змијских прелести немоћне и сеновите материје, па да као празна, мирна, чиста и блажена Нирвана чека. Слава нека је Буди, царском сину и неумитном учитељу народа свог!

Громовити персијски мудрац говори души мојој, да у свима световима нема ништа осим светлости и таме, и да се душа мора оцепити од таме као дан од ноћи. Јер синови светлости зачињу се од светлости, а синови таме зачињу се од таме. Слава нека је Зороастру, великом пророку народа свог!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 10:30:20 PM by Romaios »

Offline biro

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2013, 10:33:39 PM »
What does the other half of the sentence mean? You can't stop after the first phrase when there's still the rest of it. I'd wager most of us don't read Serbian. What does великом пророку народа свог! mean? And can you please explain the tone so we know what he meant? It isn't helpful otherwise.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2013, 10:39:43 PM »
What does the other half of the sentence mean? You can't stop after the first phrase when there's still the rest of it. I'd wager most of us don't read Serbian. What does великом пророку народа свог! mean? And can you please explain the tone so we know what he meant? It isn't helpful otherwise.


It's a prayer that glorifies in exalted terms all the wise men of Antiquity as precursors of the Incarnate Logos and messengers from the Bridegroom (=Christ) to the soul. That's what I meant myself when I said that the quote needs to be read and interpreted in its proper context. Muhammad, for instance, who came after Christ (claiming precedence over Him, cf. John 10:8 ), is - of course - excluded.

великом пророку народа свог! means "great prophet of his nation/people".

I don't read much Serbian myself.   ;)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 11:01:11 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2013, 10:41:11 PM »
Someone should just lock this thread. Nothing good has come of it yet.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2013, 08:33:28 AM »
I enjoy the occasional cigar or pipe.  I have a meerschaum pipe that I had made for me by a pipe carver in Turkey.  It's a beautiful piece of work and is turning from white to a nice cream color.  St. Seraphim was not glorified a saint because he did or did not smoke.  If I could pray even a tenth of the amount he did every day...the possibilities are infinite.  Glory to God!

EDIT:  Thinking further, as I imagine smoking a bowl of my nice cavendish blend, was St. Seraphim's smoking (if he did) a stumbling block for any of his spiritual children?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:38:00 AM by hecma925 »
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2013, 09:01:34 AM »
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.


It is actually found in St. Nikolai's "Prayers by the Lake," in which he also praises Buddha, Krishna, and Laozi as prophets for their peoples. There is nothing wrong with it- it just an extension of what the Fathers were doing in finding predictions of Christ in Plato, Virgil, etc.

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2013, 11:46:15 PM »
Dear D.
With this type of analysis you should not even start reading the All-man (Svecovek). Those who have some background in philosophy know that context and terminology are very important. You can't study philosophers without thinking like them. Many of St. Nikolaj's works are philosophical. But that is not the biggest issue. D, you are all over the thread.  I do not see a focused thesis from you in this thread. First you raise the issue of smoking which no other participants so as partculary important. Then you moved to an issue of having Roman Catholics praise St Seraphim and you concluded that it is a proof that if they like him then he is bad. When we have mentioned other figures being praised by Roman Catholics you moved to another issue or better said individual. You started analyzing a fragment of St. Nikolaj's work and completely ignoring what he said...If you have some accusations to make then fine...but don't change the topic when someone provides you with a reply you dislike. I would appreciate it if you would explain it to me how a saint (any EO saint) is considered a Nikonian saint. What are requirements?

Offline jah777

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2013, 12:02:31 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

This is not at all a "matter of fact".  What is a matter of fact is that Old Believers and Old Calendarists routinely slander true Orthodox saints out of jealousy and resentment since these groups, having departed from the body of Christ and lacking the grace of the Holy Spirit, are unable to produce saints of their own.  With the Old Calendarists I have seen this numerous times as they criticize holy elders such as Elder Paisios and Elder Porphyrios.  Yet, when you ask them for the lives of their Old Calendarists saints there is nobody they can point to.  It is the same with the Old Believers.  They spread lies in an attempt to slander our saints with the hope that we will become disillusioned and depart from the Ark of Salvation without asking them to share with us the lives of their saints.  If we ask this, again there is nothing they can provide.  Anyone can come up with lies and slander, but we who revere the saints know who are saints and who are slanderers.

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2013, 12:16:25 AM »
"All prophets from beginning cry to my soul, for it to become a girl and prepares it self for acceptance of Son of God in its clean womb. For it to become the ladder through which God will enter into the world and a man go towards god. For it to dry the Red Sea of bloody passions, so a man -slave can cross to the prides land  of freedom."
These first three lines are more important than what follows. They are the statement while below are examples of that statement...he uses those prophets who have tried and failed to reunite themselves with. He praises them for trying. These three sentences have so much reference in them that I will mention just a few...to the Virgin Mary and the birth of Christ, Jacob's ladder...and at the end Resurrection...you just have read carefully. The first three sentences represent Christ's way while others the failed attempts of others...he clearly indicates that the arrival of Son of God is the only way of reuniting God and a human...

Hope this helps...

http://www.rastko.rs/svecovek/duhovnost/vlnikolaj/vlnikolaj_molitva.html

Quote
Сви пророци од постанка вапију души мојој, да се створи девојком и спреми за пријем Сина Божанског у пречисту утробу своју.

Да постане лествица, низ коју ће Бог сићи у свет, и човек узићи к Богу.

Да исуши у себи црвено море крвних страсти, те да човек - роб може прећи у земљу обећану, земљу слободе.

Китајски мудрац опомиње душу моју, да буде мирна и непокретна и да чека, да Тао дејствује у њој. Слава нека је Лао - Цеу, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Индијски мудрац учи душу моју, да се не плаши страдања, но да се кроз тешко и истрајно вежбање, кроз чишћење и молитву, диже Вишњему, који ће јој изићи на сусрет и показати јој лице Своје и силу Своју. Слава нека је Кришни, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Царски син Индије учи душу моју, да се испразни потпуно од свега семена и усева света, и отпадне од свих змијских прелести немоћне и сеновите материје, па да као празна, мирна, чиста и блажена Нирвана чека. Слава нека је Буди, царском сину и неумитном учитељу народа свог!

Громовити персијски мудрац говори души мојој, да у свима световима нема ништа осим светлости и таме, и да се душа мора оцепити од таме као дан од ноћи. Јер синови светлости зачињу се од светлости, а синови таме зачињу се од таме. Слава нека је Зороастру, великом пророку народа свог!
[/quote]