Author Topic: Against Serafim of Sarov  (Read 6846 times)

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Offline Dionysii

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Against Serafim of Sarov
« on: August 24, 2013, 01:31:24 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 01:34:33 PM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 01:40:06 PM »
What's the point of this thread?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 01:42:51 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 01:46:16 PM »
Really! If anything this gives me MORE hope in the loving kindness of God not less...

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 01:54:41 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 01:57:09 PM »
There is no proof St. Seraphim of Sarov was a smoker. Obviously, many raskol'niki had a beef with him because when they visited him, he would put their fingers together (in three) and say, "May the Cross this way."

Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

It is amazing these people look for additional condemnation.

Please refer to this message to Romaios:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53277.msg977614.html#msg977614

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:51:24 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline biro

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 01:58:36 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

I used to smoke. I won't make any excuses. However, I did quit.

Smoking may be a sin, as perhaps an abuse of the body which is the temple of God, but we all sin in something. I believe that God forgives. It is possible that St. Seraphim repented before he died. Therefore, I do not see that a smoking problem would be enough to completely deny him sainthood. Just my thoughts.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 02:05:28 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

The implication of the OP was that the true sources had been suppressed and that only the raskol'niki had the true, secret knowledge. That sort of fits with the gnosticism many of them adopted.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 02:21:24 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 02:35:43 PM »
I used to smoke. I won't make any excuses. However, I did quit.

Bravo.

It is possible that St. Seraphim repented before he died.
That is controverted by the facts.  At least as far as smoking goes, you have done better than he did.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2013, 02:49:50 PM »
Which universally recognized authority condemns tobacco use?  ???

Offline Nathanael

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2013, 03:21:54 PM »
Yessss, Old Believers knew best how St. Seraphim Sarov lifestyle was, because especially Old Believers had lived so close with him.
Source criticism!!! Only Old Beleivers sources.. - is not very convincing. It's like Old Calendarist talking about Elder Porphyrios and Elder Paisios - boring.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 03:22:14 PM by Nathanael »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2013, 07:03:45 PM »
Which universally recognized authority condemns tobacco use?  ???

I hope this isn't going to be like the marijuana thread...
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2013, 07:05:42 PM »
Which universally recognized authority condemns tobacco use?  ???

I hope this isn't going to be like the marijuana thread...

Need to smoke. Having a cig. Now.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2013, 07:15:57 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2013, 09:14:02 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

Pages 30-31 are not included in the Google Books preview. Judging by the first essay in the book those pages would be where the source materials used would be listed.  Since this looks like a volume with good scholarly standards, I would be very surprised if there wasn't something on those pages in the book proper.  How available the book is so that one might check is the question. 

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2013, 09:17:33 PM »
It is possible that St. Seraphim repented before he died.
That is controverted by the facts.  At least as far as smoking goes, you have done better than he did.

The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.  That they apparently made statements against St. Serafim of Sarov (as well as others) does not make them facts and certainly not without some corroborating sources. 
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2013, 09:31:32 PM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2013, 09:39:08 PM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

The Old Believer "legend" that the essay is about says that he "suffocated from a smoldering fire lit when he dropped his pipe onto a heap of rags" (page 27). 
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2013, 09:49:40 PM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

The Old Believer "legend" that the essay is about says that he "suffocated from a smoldering fire lit when he dropped his pipe onto a heap of rags" (page 27). 
Ah.  Thanks for explaining.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2013, 10:36:38 PM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

If your purpose is to ruin the good name and works of St. Seraphim of Sarov, it hasn't worked.  What is your next beef with the MP ?

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2013, 10:38:29 PM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

Me thinks you may have picked the wrong forum to vent your dislike of St. Seraphim..

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2013, 10:51:50 PM »
I was not aware that all saints were required to have the same level of sinlessness as the Theotokos before they could be canonized.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2013, 12:01:32 AM »
I was not aware that all saints were required to have the same level of sinlessness as the Theotokos before they could be canonized.

As long as you don't inhale, you're good.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2013, 12:34:20 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2013, 12:40:51 AM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

Me thinks you may have picked the wrong forum to vent your dislike of St. Seraphim..
It wasn't Asteriktos who posted the attempt to slander St. Seraphim.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2013, 01:05:47 AM »

That is controverted by the facts.  At least as far as smoking goes, you have done better than he did.

Dionysii, you are usually good about thinking outside of the box. Are you capable of doing so here?

Offline LBK

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2013, 01:19:21 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

Not this crock again. Sheesh.  :P :P ::)
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2013, 01:20:34 AM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2013, 03:06:16 AM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker.

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...
Translation please.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 03:07:16 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

Pages 30-31 are not included in the Google Books preview. Judging by the first essay in the book those pages would be where the source materials used would be listed.  Since this looks like a volume with good scholarly standards, I would be very surprised if there wasn't something on those pages in the book proper.  How available the book is so that one might check is the question. 



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Offline converted viking

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2013, 07:32:02 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false


Oh pleaseeeeee give me a break.  What a load of rubbish !   Where is my pipe?  I am going to stuff that sucker and torch it off.   

Viking<Seraphim>

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2013, 09:43:29 AM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker.

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...
Translation please.

And this story has been spread among the raskolniki until this day. (cf. Mt. 28:15)

It has come to our attention that you used schismatic in a different language, "raskolniki":

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53277.msg977614.html#msg977614

Please refer to my previous warning I gave to Dionysii:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25531.msg965739.html#msg965739

It seems to me Dionysii comes from the Old Calendar tradition, which though in schism, it's against the rules to call "schismatic".  Please try to avoid direct judgments, and rather use non-inflammatory language when referring to a group not united to your Church.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:42:16 PM by minasoliman »

Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2013, 09:48:35 AM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

The Old Believer "legend" that the essay is about says that he "suffocated from a smoldering fire lit when he dropped his pipe onto a heap of rags" (page 27). 
Ah.  Thanks for explaining.

You're welcome.   :)
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2013, 09:49:10 AM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

Pages 30-31 are not included in the Google Books preview. Judging by the first essay in the book those pages would be where the source materials used would be listed.  Since this looks like a volume with good scholarly standards, I would be very surprised if there wasn't something on those pages in the book proper.  How available the book is so that one might check is the question. 



Ah, thank you.

I'm glad to be of service.   :)
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2013, 10:19:41 AM »
No good sources.

Btw, what if he did smoke? You realize that the world did not know that smoking was harmful for your health until the time of World War II? The Germans were the first to realize it, with Adolf Hitler giving up tobacco, and then the rest of the world discovered it around the close of the war.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2013, 12:43:47 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2013, 12:52:59 PM »
No good sources.

Btw, what if he did smoke? You realize that the world did not know that smoking was harmful for your health until the time of World War II? The Germans were the first to realize it, with Adolf Hitler giving up tobacco, and then the rest of the world discovered it around the close of the war.

We have known that tobacco was bad for you for hundreds of years...

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
I am not sure about eveidence for or against St. Nikolai smoking, but it is definitely hard to find a Serb who doesnt smoke. It is just a very universal practice in Serbia, including priests and monks.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2013, 01:16:50 PM »
I am not sure about eveidence for or against St. Nikolai smoking, but it is definitely hard to find a Serb who doesnt smoke. It is just a very universal practice in Serbia, including priests and monks.

Monks!!!   :o
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2013, 01:30:22 PM »
^St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in probably the most famous EO book on monasticism in contemporary times, basically excused tobacco use, saying that if you couldn't give it up that you should at least use it in private so as not to tempt others.

Does this not show the depths of depravity that the EO have fallen to since the pure Old believers left?  8)

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2013, 01:40:18 PM »
Only one is perfect, The God Man. Saints being human have their flaws. Saint Seraphim's flaws are unknown to me and many, I suspect. His Herculean struggle is known as is his Christian love for those who approached him.

Other than any betrayal of Orthodoxy the only flaws that really concern me are my own.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2013, 01:53:16 PM »
No good sources.

Btw, what if he did smoke? You realize that the world did not know that smoking was harmful for your health until the time of World War II? The Germans were the first to realize it, with Adolf Hitler giving up tobacco, and then the rest of the world discovered it around the close of the war.

We have known that tobacco was bad for you for hundreds of years...

Actually, he didn't totally miss the mark. In the first half of the 20th century, you could still find doctors who would prescripe tobacco as medicin.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2013, 03:21:57 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references?
Further sources are mentioned in the accounts preserved by Old Believers. 
It is prejudiced to dismiss these accounts without reading or knowing what they have to say.  They may very well preserve information from the past exactly as it occurred.  The Old Believers have a reputation for that.

What's the point of this thread?
The point is to make known an historical tradition about Monk Seraphim of Sarov which is very different from the positive Nikonian portrayal.  The Russian language has both representations, but the English language is disproportionately represented by the Nikonian only.   

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2013, 03:32:53 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2013, 03:37:32 PM »
^St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in probably the most famous EO book on monasticism in contemporary times, basically excused tobacco use, saying that if you couldn't give it up that you should at least use it in private so as not to tempt others.

Does this not show the depths of depravity that the EO have fallen to since the pure Old believers left?  8)

 8)

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2013, 03:51:10 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

That is ridiculous. We can't stop people from venerating Orthodox saints and why should we?

I'm sorry, but all this seems to me like a really bad attempt to demonize a person.
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Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2013, 03:55:04 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

Then based on your logic while EO except old rite is in apostasy...no, I don't think so. Especially silly it sounds that because of smoking that we should not think of him as a saint...if Catholics praise Jesus, does it mean that we should stop? Come on D. I know you mean well, but there is a need to look at the context here. The only sin worth questioning that comes to my head at the moment (from our human reasoning) is whether that individual was confessing the faith "correctly"...now, smoking, drinking or any other such things do necessary mean that a person is not a saint...Beloved St. Mary of Egypt is perhaps the best example...I am confident you will agree that her sin was greater if we really have to compare...but only God knows what in our hearts...

Offline Nephi

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2013, 04:02:02 PM »
is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

So wait, venerating St. George is a mark of ecumenism too?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2013, 04:08:32 PM »
I was not aware that all saints were required to have the same level of sinlessness as the Theotokos before they could be canonized.

But vices do not have to be made up from lies in order to advance one's God-hating agenda.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2013, 04:11:49 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.


Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2013, 04:13:15 PM »
^St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in probably the most famous EO book on monasticism in contemporary times, basically excused tobacco use, saying that if you couldn't give it up that you should at least use it in private so as not to tempt others.

Does this not show the depths of depravity that the EO have fallen to since the pure Old believers left?  8)

I'm sure one could find a lot more interesting stuff on the depravity of the raskol'niki.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2013, 04:14:37 PM »
The veneration of Monk Seraphim of Sarov is an indication of the apostasy of the Nikonian church in so far as it is a mark of oecumenism and unity with the Franks since the Vatican and Moscow Patriarchate both officially venerate him as a saint. 

That is ridiculous. We can't stop people from venerating Orthodox saints and why should we?

I'm sorry, but all this seems to me like a really bad attempt to demonize a person.

And to justify their own idolatry.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2013, 05:16:15 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.

Indicative of his perverted faith, Nikolai Velimirovich clearly praised the prophets of non-Christian false religions including Lao Tse, Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster:

"The wise man of China admonishes my soul to be peaceful and still, and to wait for the Tao to act within her.  Glory be the memory of Lao-tse, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The wise man of India teaches my soul not to be afraid of suffering, but through the arduous and relentless drilling in purification and prayer to elevate herself to the One on high, who will come out to greet her and manifest to her His face and His power.  Glorious be the memory of Krishna, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The royal son of India teaches my soul to empty herself completely of every seed and crop of the world, to abandon all the serpentine allurements of frail and shadowy matter, and then - in vacuity, tranquillity, purity and bliss - to await nirvana.  Blessed be the memory of Buddha, the royal son and inexorable teacher of his people!

The thunderous wise man of Persia tells my soul that there is nothing in the world except light and darkness, and that the soul must break free from the darkness as the day does from the night.  For the sons of light are conceived from the light, and the sons of darkness are conceived from the darkness.  Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster, the great prophet of his people!"


http://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.com/2012/06/st-nikolai-velimirovich-on.html

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2013, 05:22:20 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.

Indicative of his perverted faith, Nikolai Velimirovich clearly praised the prophets of non-Christian false religions including Lao Tse, Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster:

"The wise man of China admonishes my soul to be peaceful and still, and to wait for the Tao to act within her.  Glory be the memory of Lao-tse, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The wise man of India teaches my soul not to be afraid of suffering, but through the arduous and relentless drilling in purification and prayer to elevate herself to the One on high, who will come out to greet her and manifest to her His face and His power.  Glorious be the memory of Krishna, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The royal son of India teaches my soul to empty herself completely of every seed and crop of the world, to abandon all the serpentine allurements of frail and shadowy matter, and then - in vacuity, tranquillity, purity and bliss - to await nirvana.  Blessed be the memory of Buddha, the royal son and inexorable teacher of his people!

The thunderous wise man of Persia tells my soul that there is nothing in the world except light and darkness, and that the soul must break free from the darkness as the day does from the night.  For the sons of light are conceived from the light, and the sons of darkness are conceived from the darkness.  Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster, the great prophet of his people!"


http://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.com/2012/06/st-nikolai-velimirovich-on.html

And did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2013, 05:35:25 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Apologies if it is misinformation. It was something I heard from someone who went to St. Tikhon's, where St. Nikolai taught. If one reads the works of St. Nikolai and comes to some conclusion against his sanctity, I think one would need one's head and soul seriously examined for signs of life and intelligence.

Indicative of his perverted faith, Nikolai Velimirovich clearly praised the prophets of non-Christian false religions including Lao Tse, Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster:

Those quotes are totally taken out of context: for St. Nikolai's view on these matters, see his Iznad Istoka i Zapada (Above East and West).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 05:37:54 PM by Romaios »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2013, 05:45:03 PM »
The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.


Are you indicating an actual book or essay by that name?

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2013, 05:53:37 PM »
did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
They did not take from them as if they needed to learn truths from them. 
Some Church Fathers did indeed quote specific doctrines which were true in order for their audience to identify with a part of their teaching.

However, I am unfamiliar with any Church Fathers glorifying the memory or either Zoroaster, Lao Tse, Buddha, or Krishna.
The Church Fathers did the opposite of the Nikonian Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich. 

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2013, 05:57:48 PM »
Those quotes are totally taken out of context

No. You speak falsely.

The Bishop Velimirovich said "Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."  Did he not?
How is that passage out of context?

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2013, 06:02:32 PM »
did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
They did not take from them as if they needed to learn truths from them. 
Some Church Fathers did indeed quote specific doctrines which were true in order for their audience to identify with a part of their teaching.

However, I am unfamiliar with any Church Fathers glorifying the memory or either Zoroaster, Lao Tse, Buddha, or Krishna.
The Church Fathers did the opposite of the Nikonian Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich. 

Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed... well, maybe Zoroaster and Buddha to a limited degree. And as Romaios said, these quotes probably shouldn't be read for themselves.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2013, 06:11:57 PM »
Those quotes are totally taken out of context

No. You speak falsely.

The Bishop Velimirovich said "Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."  Did he not?
How is that passage out of context?


This is on the very page you referred to:

Quote
Do not slay the prophets sent to you, my soul, for their graves contain not them, but those who slew them.

Wash and cleanse yourself; become tranquil amid the turbulent sea of the world, and keep within yourself the counsels of the prophets sent to you.  Surrender yourself entirely to the One on high and say to the world:  "I have nothing for you."

Even the most righteous of the sons of men, who believe in you, are merely feeble shadows which, like the righteous Joseph, walk in your shadow.  For mortality begets mortality and not life.  Truly I say to you: earthly husbands are mistaken when they say that they give life. They do not give it but ruin it.  They push life into the red sea and drown it, and beforehand they wrap it in darkness and make it a diabolical illusion.  There is no life, O soul, unless it comes from the Holy Spirit.  Nor is there any reality in the world, unless it comes down from heaven.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2013, 06:28:31 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html


"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich


He speaks for himself.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2013, 06:36:29 PM »
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed...
A bit off topic, but I am finding that the Panarion of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis is rather astute.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2013, 06:38:05 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html


"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich


He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2013, 06:41:28 PM »
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed...
A bit off topic, but I am finding that the Panarion of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis is rather astute.
Haven't read it yet. Where does it mention Buddha?
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2013, 06:53:01 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html

"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.

I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis. 

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3: 
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2013, 06:56:01 PM »
I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis. 

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3: 
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf

On the Pseudo-Clement you quoted:

Quote
The original author shows a detailed knowledge of the towns on the Phoenician coast from Caesarea to Antioch. He was an Arian, and Arianism had its home in the civil diocese of the Orient. He uses the Praeparatio Evangelica of Eusebius of Caesarea (written about 313). In 325 that historian mentions the dialogues of Peter and Appion as just published — presumably in his own region; these were probably the nucleus of the larger work completed by the same hand a few years later. Citations of Pseudo-Clement are by the Palestinian Epiphanius, who found the romance among the Ebionites of Palestine; by St. Jerome, who had dwelt in the Syrian desert and settled at Bethlehem; by the travelled Rufinus; by the Apostolical Constitutions, compiled in Syria or Palestine. The work is rendered into Syriac before 411. The Arian author of the Opus imperfectum cited it freely. It was interpolated by a Eunomian about 365–70. All these indications suggest an Arian author before 350 in the East, probably not far from Caesarea.

The author, though an Arian, probably belonged nominally to the Catholic Church. He wrote for the heathens of his day, and observed the stiff and often merely formal disciplina arcani which the 4th century enforced. Atonement, grace, sacraments are omitted for this cause only. "The true Prophet" is not a name for Christ used by Christians, but the office of Christ which the author puts forward towards the pagan world. He shows Peter keeping the evening agape and Eucharist secret from Clement when unbaptized; it was no doubt a Eucharist of bread and wine, not of bread and salt.

Source

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2013, 07:01:52 PM »
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html

"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.

I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis.  

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3:  
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf
I still do not follow where you are going. Nimrod and Nebrod are two variations of the same name and What Saint Epiphanius seems to be doing is seperating Zoroaster and Nimrod from each other. We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 07:03:03 PM by Ansgar »
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2013, 07:09:55 PM »
St. Clement of Rome... he was one of the numerous Church Fathers who use the pagan evil wicked dastardly myth of the rising Phoenix, right?  8)

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2013, 07:27:49 PM »
On the Pseudo-Clement you quoted:

Quote
The original author shows a detailed knowledge of the towns on the Phoenician coast from Caesarea to Antioch. He was an Arian, and Arianism had its home in the civil diocese of the Orient. He uses the Praeparatio Evangelica of Eusebius of Caesarea (written about 313). In 325 that historian mentions the dialogues of Peter and Appion as just published — presumably in his own region; these were probably the nucleus of the larger work completed by the same hand a few years later. Citations of Pseudo-Clement are by the Palestinian Epiphanius, who found the romance among the Ebionites of Palestine; by St. Jerome, who had dwelt in the Syrian desert and settled at Bethlehem; by the travelled Rufinus; by the Apostolical Constitutions, compiled in Syria or Palestine. The work is rendered into Syriac before 411. The Arian author of the Opus imperfectum cited it freely. It was interpolated by a Eunomian about 365–70. All these indications suggest an Arian author before 350 in the East, probably not far from Caesarea.

The author, though an Arian, probably belonged nominally to the Catholic Church. He wrote for the heathens of his day, and observed the stiff and often merely formal disciplina arcani which the 4th century enforced. Atonement, grace, sacraments are omitted for this cause only. "The true Prophet" is not a name for Christ used by Christians, but the office of Christ which the author puts forward towards the pagan world. He shows Peter keeping the evening agape and Eucharist secret from Clement when unbaptized; it was no doubt a Eucharist of bread and wine, not of bread and salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine_literature

You assert that the text I quoted was not written by Saint Clement, and you quote a wikipedia article against his authorship.
According to your own quote, Saints Jerome and Epiphanius accepted this work as genuinely written by Saint Clement of Rome.
No disrespect, but I prefer the company of saints to the folks at wikipedia!  :) 

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2013, 07:35:53 PM »
You assert that the text I quoted was not written by Saint Clement, and you quote a wikipedia article against his authorship.
According to your own quote, Saints Jerome and Epiphanius accepted this work as genuinely written by Saint Clement of Rome.
No disrespect, but I prefer the company of saints to the folks at wikipedia!  :) 

It's not just wikipedia - it's the general scientific consensus that the writings you quoted do not belong to the same St. Clement who wrote the Epistle(s) to the Corinthians. But I guess that wouldn't mean much to you, anyway. They rely on Eusebius of Caesarea and are tainted by Arianism.

The Epistle of Judas quotes Enoch. Do you propose we should invest that apocryphon with Scriptural authority as well?

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2013, 07:40:14 PM »
We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.


We took a brief detour into relevant patristic literature.  
I think the side conversation about Nikolai Velimirovich has been directly relevant because the essence of the opening post about Seraphim of Sarov concerns the legitimacy of Nikonian saints - a category to which Bishop Nikolai belongs according to many Nikonian denominations.  Matthewites are the only Nikonian synod that currently come to mind of which I am certain would not consider him a saint.    

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »
It's not just wikipedia - it's the general scientific consensus ...
Yeah...we definitely have a different way of evaluating what constitutes truth.

If you can show that it's not then I'll give you due credit. 
I have not investigated it deeply, but the fact that your own source says that Saints Jerome and Saints Epiphanius believed it was genuine is the factor that buried the subject in my book.  I haave other things to do in life.  That issue will have to be explained for starters if I was ever to consider otherwise. 

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2013, 07:52:30 PM »

I have not investigated it deeply, but the fact that your own source says that Saints Jerome and Saints Epiphanius believed it was genuine is the factor that buried the subject in my book. 

It doesn't say as much - St. Epiphanius quotes/alludes to the Pseudo-Clementina, but it's not clear whether he credits St. Clement for them. He doesn't mention him in the excerpt you brought up about Nimrod/Nebrod.  
  

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2013, 08:03:38 PM »
We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.


We took a brief detour into relevant patristic literature.  
I think the side conversation about Nikolai Velimirovich has been directly relevant because the essence of the opening post about Seraphim of Sarov concerns the legitimacy of Nikonian saints - a category to which Bishop Nikolai belongs according to many Nikonian denominations.  Matthewites are the only Nikonian synod that currently come to mind of which I am certain would not consider him a saint.    
Our saints are no less legitimate than yours.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2013, 09:51:35 PM »
The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.


Are you indicating an actual book or essay by that name?

The link that you posted was to the Google Books preview of 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William B. Husband.  This is a text book published by Rowman and Littlefield
https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780842028561 and is described thusly:

" By integrating the human dimension into Russian history, this lively textbook introduces Russian social history since 1861 to readers in provocative and interesting new ways. The essays in this unique collection are based largely on previously classified Russian archival information available only since 1991. Bringing in the perspectives of individuals and groups usually overlooked, the authors give the reader a grassroots view of modern Russia. The Human Tradition in Modern Russia is an ideal for courses on Russian history and civilization and modern European history."
 
Here is the first part of the Table of Contents:

"Chapter 1 Introduction: The Persistence of Memory in Modern Russia
Part 2 I. Reform, Modernization, and Imperial Society
Chapter 3 Krylov vs. Krylova: 'Sexual Incapacity' and Divorce in Tsarist Russia
Chapter 4 Old Believers in Imperial Russia: A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco"

Bold has been added for emphasis.  That is the chapter, which you cited, that has the passage about St. Serafim of Sarov and that his death was said by Old Believers according to the text to have been due to smoke/tobacco.  The text plainly states that it was Old Believers who reported that various people in the ROC were smokers and that their deaths were due to tobacco. 

Such reports by persons who were not close to St. Serefim are dubious, to say the least, without some form of support.  The point of the essay as shown in the title and in reading the pages around your chosen passage is to give information on one group's views on tobacco and how these could be used against another group with whom they had a history of deep disagreement and enmity, to say the least.

So the material that you provided is not about "facts" on the passing of St. Serefim of Sarov but about what a rival religious group SAID/WROTE about him.  Their story/rumour/ etc.

There's a difference.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2013, 09:55:28 PM »
I have several reliable sources indicating that the priest Avvakum was a big stoner and died listening to Phish.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2013, 10:00:38 PM »
That's in St Paul's Letter to the Antiochians, right? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2013, 10:12:21 PM »
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2013, 10:28:37 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

wait, he actually died from smoking a pipe? Like are you serious? Pipe smoking? Nothing you ever say or post will ever hold any weight with me whatsoever.

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2013, 10:29:09 PM »
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.


The quote is authentic. It's from Prayers by the Lake, no. XLVIII. Here's the original Serbian:

Quote
Сви пророци од постанка вапију души мојој, да се створи девојком и спреми за пријем Сина Божанског у пречисту утробу своју.

Да постане лествица, низ коју ће Бог сићи у свет, и човек узићи к Богу.

Да исуши у себи црвено море крвних страсти, те да човек - роб може прећи у земљу обећану, земљу слободе.

Китајски мудрац опомиње душу моју, да буде мирна и непокретна и да чека, да Тао дејствује у њој. Слава нека је Лао - Цеу, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Индијски мудрац учи душу моју, да се не плаши страдања, но да се кроз тешко и истрајно вежбање, кроз чишћење и молитву, диже Вишњему, који ће јој изићи на сусрет и показати јој лице Своје и силу Своју. Слава нека је Кришни, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Царски син Индије учи душу моју, да се испразни потпуно од свега семена и усева света, и отпадне од свих змијских прелести немоћне и сеновите материје, па да као празна, мирна, чиста и блажена Нирвана чека. Слава нека је Буди, царском сину и неумитном учитељу народа свог!

Громовити персијски мудрац говори души мојој, да у свима световима нема ништа осим светлости и таме, и да се душа мора оцепити од таме као дан од ноћи. Јер синови светлости зачињу се од светлости, а синови таме зачињу се од таме. Слава нека је Зороастру, великом пророку народа свог!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 10:30:20 PM by Romaios »

Offline biro

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2013, 10:33:39 PM »
What does the other half of the sentence mean? You can't stop after the first phrase when there's still the rest of it. I'd wager most of us don't read Serbian. What does великом пророку народа свог! mean? And can you please explain the tone so we know what he meant? It isn't helpful otherwise.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2013, 10:39:43 PM »
What does the other half of the sentence mean? You can't stop after the first phrase when there's still the rest of it. I'd wager most of us don't read Serbian. What does великом пророку народа свог! mean? And can you please explain the tone so we know what he meant? It isn't helpful otherwise.


It's a prayer that glorifies in exalted terms all the wise men of Antiquity as precursors of the Incarnate Logos and messengers from the Bridegroom (=Christ) to the soul. That's what I meant myself when I said that the quote needs to be read and interpreted in its proper context. Muhammad, for instance, who came after Christ (claiming precedence over Him, cf. John 10:8 ), is - of course - excluded.

великом пророку народа свог! means "great prophet of his nation/people".

I don't read much Serbian myself.   ;)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 11:01:11 PM by Romaios »

Offline biro

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2013, 10:41:11 PM »
Someone should just lock this thread. Nothing good has come of it yet.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2013, 08:33:28 AM »
I enjoy the occasional cigar or pipe.  I have a meerschaum pipe that I had made for me by a pipe carver in Turkey.  It's a beautiful piece of work and is turning from white to a nice cream color.  St. Seraphim was not glorified a saint because he did or did not smoke.  If I could pray even a tenth of the amount he did every day...the possibilities are infinite.  Glory to God!

EDIT:  Thinking further, as I imagine smoking a bowl of my nice cavendish blend, was St. Seraphim's smoking (if he did) a stumbling block for any of his spiritual children?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:38:00 AM by hecma925 »
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2013, 09:01:34 AM »
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.


It is actually found in St. Nikolai's "Prayers by the Lake," in which he also praises Buddha, Krishna, and Laozi as prophets for their peoples. There is nothing wrong with it- it just an extension of what the Fathers were doing in finding predictions of Christ in Plato, Virgil, etc.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2013, 11:46:15 PM »
Dear D.
With this type of analysis you should not even start reading the All-man (Svecovek). Those who have some background in philosophy know that context and terminology are very important. You can't study philosophers without thinking like them. Many of St. Nikolaj's works are philosophical. But that is not the biggest issue. D, you are all over the thread.  I do not see a focused thesis from you in this thread. First you raise the issue of smoking which no other participants so as partculary important. Then you moved to an issue of having Roman Catholics praise St Seraphim and you concluded that it is a proof that if they like him then he is bad. When we have mentioned other figures being praised by Roman Catholics you moved to another issue or better said individual. You started analyzing a fragment of St. Nikolaj's work and completely ignoring what he said...If you have some accusations to make then fine...but don't change the topic when someone provides you with a reply you dislike. I would appreciate it if you would explain it to me how a saint (any EO saint) is considered a Nikonian saint. What are requirements?

Offline jah777

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2013, 12:02:31 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

This is not at all a "matter of fact".  What is a matter of fact is that Old Believers and Old Calendarists routinely slander true Orthodox saints out of jealousy and resentment since these groups, having departed from the body of Christ and lacking the grace of the Holy Spirit, are unable to produce saints of their own.  With the Old Calendarists I have seen this numerous times as they criticize holy elders such as Elder Paisios and Elder Porphyrios.  Yet, when you ask them for the lives of their Old Calendarists saints there is nobody they can point to.  It is the same with the Old Believers.  They spread lies in an attempt to slander our saints with the hope that we will become disillusioned and depart from the Ark of Salvation without asking them to share with us the lives of their saints.  If we ask this, again there is nothing they can provide.  Anyone can come up with lies and slander, but we who revere the saints know who are saints and who are slanderers.

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2013, 12:16:25 AM »
"All prophets from beginning cry to my soul, for it to become a girl and prepares it self for acceptance of Son of God in its clean womb. For it to become the ladder through which God will enter into the world and a man go towards god. For it to dry the Red Sea of bloody passions, so a man -slave can cross to the prides land  of freedom."
These first three lines are more important than what follows. They are the statement while below are examples of that statement...he uses those prophets who have tried and failed to reunite themselves with. He praises them for trying. These three sentences have so much reference in them that I will mention just a few...to the Virgin Mary and the birth of Christ, Jacob's ladder...and at the end Resurrection...you just have read carefully. The first three sentences represent Christ's way while others the failed attempts of others...he clearly indicates that the arrival of Son of God is the only way of reuniting God and a human...

Hope this helps...

http://www.rastko.rs/svecovek/duhovnost/vlnikolaj/vlnikolaj_molitva.html

Quote
Сви пророци од постанка вапију души мојој, да се створи девојком и спреми за пријем Сина Божанског у пречисту утробу своју.

Да постане лествица, низ коју ће Бог сићи у свет, и човек узићи к Богу.

Да исуши у себи црвено море крвних страсти, те да човек - роб може прећи у земљу обећану, земљу слободе.

Китајски мудрац опомиње душу моју, да буде мирна и непокретна и да чека, да Тао дејствује у њој. Слава нека је Лао - Цеу, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Индијски мудрац учи душу моју, да се не плаши страдања, но да се кроз тешко и истрајно вежбање, кроз чишћење и молитву, диже Вишњему, који ће јој изићи на сусрет и показати јој лице Своје и силу Своју. Слава нека је Кришни, учитељу и пророку народа свог!

Царски син Индије учи душу моју, да се испразни потпуно од свега семена и усева света, и отпадне од свих змијских прелести немоћне и сеновите материје, па да као празна, мирна, чиста и блажена Нирвана чека. Слава нека је Буди, царском сину и неумитном учитељу народа свог!

Громовити персијски мудрац говори души мојој, да у свима световима нема ништа осим светлости и таме, и да се душа мора оцепити од таме као дан од ноћи. Јер синови светлости зачињу се од светлости, а синови таме зачињу се од таме. Слава нека је Зороастру, великом пророку народа свог!
[/quote]

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2013, 12:22:06 AM »
I would appreciate it if you would explain it to me how a saint (any EO saint) is considered a Nikonian saint. What are requirements?

First, I and others use the name Nikon for lack of a better name because he was the leading representative of this camp during the schism.  This applies to the Patr Constantinople and Moscow Patr indicriminately of their national distinction.  They are in communion and in the same camp as far as this issue and fall under the category of Nikonian.  By Nikonian, I mean the post 1666 Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow as well other synods in communion with them (i.e. synod of Greece) (also included are the Old Calendarists who were in communion with the rest of these until the early 20th century).  

Persons canonized as saints by these Nikonian synods after 1666 are whom I consider Nikonian saints.  After this date, two opposing churches with different traditions existed including two different sets of saints.  

Hope this helps.  The saints of the early Church are not part of the contention here since both sides accept them.  
What I do question is the legitimacy of post-1666 Nikonian saints which includes Russia's Optina brotherhood and the Greek Kollyvades.  

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2013, 12:36:19 AM »
Dionysii, you are usually good about thinking outside of the box. Are you capable of doing so here?

I appreciate your comments. 
As you might have perceived, I am newer to the Old believers and have had less time to accumulate the same level and quality of knowledge about this particular controversy as I have on some of the others of which you might be thinking.  Of course, the truth remains what it is reguardless of my lack of eloquency and destitution of interesting knowledge wherewith to express it. 

To answer your question more precisely, I would venture that you will find my arguments on this particular topic more cultivated, interesting, and even characteristically "outside the box" as you put it in a few years time.  I'll still be arguing the same thing, mind you, but I estimate it will take time to have the form and quality I understand you to speak of.  Rome wasn't built in a day. 

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2013, 01:10:17 AM »
Persons canonized as saints by these Nikonian synods after 1666 are whom I consider Nikonian saints.  After this date, two opposing churches with different traditions existed including two different sets of saints.  
I have observed several clues that indicate what determines saintly status is very different for these two traditions.  More specifically, the Nikonian tradition appears much more liberal and eclectic.  The liberal attitude towards smoking, for example, is unthinkable with Old Believer laymen - let alone a saint.  I am persuaded that this liberal attitude has characterized Nikonian attitudes towards other issues as well and Nikonian morality generally. 

To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2013, 01:52:17 AM »
Nice...my patron saint was a habitual smoker and drinker! I wondered why after all these years I had to hit the men's smoke shop a few times a week and sip some good whiskey to boot as well. It's quite the normal routine and glad to see I have something in common with him besides the Orthodox faith.  8) 
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2013, 06:56:51 AM »
To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

What on earth...?
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2013, 07:09:05 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false


Are you indicative of what represents these "old believers"? I have never seen a sane example yet, I hope I am wrong but you all seem to be in nned of having your heads examined. you seem to be a pathetic bunch of babbling fools.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2013, 07:11:35 AM »
This is getting more and more ridiculous.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2013, 07:19:22 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2013, 08:12:49 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2013, 08:26:42 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Definitely not pipeweed. That was introduced by the Blessed Reuel. :D
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2013, 08:27:28 AM »
Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2013, 08:56:26 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Dunhill's My Mixture 965. 

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2013, 08:57:29 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Definitely not pipeweed. That was introduced by the Blessed Reuel. :D

Nope, no weed.  I'm not a luuz'r.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:03:10 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2013, 10:31:32 AM »
Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Flat Earth? When did that happen?
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2013, 10:47:33 AM »
Although I was not churched when I was young, that matter was never a question for me.  I always believed in God, but I never thought about it much when I was younger.

My personal thoughts are that I came to disagree with what some people claim is scientific fact.
I was briefly in a protestant fundamentalist Church when I was searching for a genuine Church many years ago, and they gave me a bible commentary (by MacDonald as I recall), and I had an incident which led to a new view of the cosmos.

I expected that commentary to be a work of God, and as I began a study of Ecclesiastes, I read that his commentary became weak and limp wristed when speaking about a verse that would imply geocentrism if taken literally.  I became quite angry that the commentary which I placed so much faith in was so manifestly uncertain about science or any thing else in the bible.  I perceived that MacDonald doubted a part of the bible, and I considered his commentary worthless and threw it in the trash.

Although I had never even bothered to think about it before (and of course still consider it irrelevant to salvation), I took the position that what the bible said about those things was inerrant, and I became a geocentrist that night because that was consistent with the bible's teaching.  It would not matter to me if heliocentrism had been the way it was, but it was not the case.  Pretty every one (atheists and protestants alike) disagreed.  Because of the attitude of some people (particularly at Church), I was motivated to go to the extent of ignoring technology to make a realistic experiment and reasoned that my own eyes observed that the sun moved across the sky every day.  The sun is moving and not the earth.  I reckoned that if modern science is so allegedly true, then why does it need a crutch like technology or some textbook to brainwash people about it?

I looked far and wide for a geocentric organization of any kind and found nothing except for the flat earth society which I considered too extreme and good bit beyond what I was searching for, but which I ultimately contacted because I knew of nothing else. They sent me a flyer (this was in the mid-1990's) from which I discovered the existence of an english flat earth movement in the nineteenth century which was based on a book written in 1865 by a guy who had taken the time to tediously develop astute refutations to all objections to that astronomy. 

I got the book through interlibrary loan and photocopied it.  I was converted by the second chapter.


I remembered a reference to Cosmas Indicopleustes in Webster's Biographical Dictionary.  He was an Egyptian monk at Saint Catherine's monastery in Sinai who wrote a book defending the early Byzantine Christian view of the world (which turned out to be flat) against the pagan view which was globular.  His book had been translated into english in 1897, and I photocopied it at a local university library.

That aroused my interest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and thus it did play a part in my conversion to the Orthodox Church.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2013, 10:55:04 AM »
Although I was not churched when I was young, that matter was never a question for me.  I always believed in God, but I never thought about it much when I was younger.

My personal thoughts are that I came to disagree with what some people claim is scientific fact.
I was briefly in a protestant fundamentalist Church when I was searching for a genuine Church many years ago, and they gave me a bible commentary (by MacDonald as I recall), and I had an incident which led to a new view of the cosmos.

I expected that commentary to be a work of God, and as I began a study of Ecclesiastes, I read that his commentary became weak and limp wristed when speaking about a verse that would imply geocentrism if taken literally.  I became quite angry that the commentary which I placed so much faith in was so manifestly uncertain about science or any thing else in the bible.  I perceived that MacDonald doubted a part of the bible, and I considered his commentary worthless and threw it in the trash.

Although I had never even bothered to think about it before (and of course still consider it irrelevant to salvation), I took the position that what the bible said about those things was inerrant, and I became a geocentrist that night because that was consistent with the bible's teaching.  It would not matter to me if heliocentrism had been the way it was, but it was not the case.  Pretty every one (atheists and protestants alike) disagreed.  Because of the attitude of some people (particularly at Church), I was motivated to go to the extent of ignoring technology to make a realistic experiment and reasoned that my own eyes observed that the sun moved across the sky every day.  The sun is moving and not the earth.  I reckoned that if modern science is so allegedly true, then why does it need a crutch like technology or some textbook to brainwash people about it?

I looked far and wide for a geocentric organization of any kind and found nothing except for the flat earth society which I considered too extreme and good bit beyond what I was searching for, but which I ultimately contacted because I knew of nothing else. They sent me a flyer (this was in the mid-1990's) from which I discovered the existence of an english flat earth movement in the nineteenth century which was based on a book written in 1865 by a guy who had taken the time to tediously develop astute refutations to all objections to that astronomy. 

I got the book through interlibrary loan and photocopied it.  I was converted by the second chapter.


I remembered a reference to Cosmas Indicopleustes in Webster's Biographical Dictionary.  He was an Egyptian monk at Saint Catherine's monastery in Sinai who wrote a book defending the early Byzantine Christian view of the world (which turned out to be flat) against the pagan view which was globular.  His book had been translated into english in 1897, and I photocopied it at a local university library.

That aroused my interest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and thus it did play a part in my conversion to the Orthodox Church.
Oh... Well, thank you.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2013, 11:23:42 AM »
Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.

Thanks for your post; I was about to criticize him severely. Now, I see that the poor fellow needs our prayers.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 11:24:02 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2013, 01:38:57 PM »
Thanks for your post; I was about to criticize him severely. Now, I see that the poor fellow needs our prayers.

It appears that we both think the other's beliefs are greatly in error.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »
Thanks for your post; I was about to criticize him severely. Now, I see that the poor fellow needs our prayers.

It appears that we both think the other's beliefs are greatly in error.

Do you live in Russia?

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

So is the legend of the appearance of tobacco (created by Satan to tempt the faithful) considered true by Old Believers?  This is a serious question, since you cite this book.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2013, 02:39:24 PM »
Do you live in Russia?

No.  When I finished a tour with the US Navy in the submarine service a few years ago, I took six months of unemployment which I used to travel the world visiting Orthodox Christian churches and places of interest such as churches in Hong Kong and the hill of Mar Toma where Saint Thomas was martyred in India as well as many churches throughout Ethiopia and Egypt.  I finished the trip by spending a year in old calendar Greek monasteries (Matthewite). 

As the amount of my funding had it, I did not include Russia in my trip at that time (while I was still with the Nikonians).
Perhaps this was the providence of God.
I definitely plan to visit Russia.  My fiancee and I are considering getting married in Russia (in a Bela Krinits Church, of course).

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2013, 02:52:49 PM »
To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

What on earth...?

By this, I mean the Nikonian church has gotten worse over time.  Sergius is a reference to Stalin's patriarch Sergius Stragorodsky whose oecumenism with western heretics and general lack of spirituality characterizes this group today more so than Patriarch Nikon of the seventeenth century. 

The Nikonians seem to be losing even that little bit which they had.   They are going in the wide way feared by this Orthodox Christian from Spain:

"Former catholic struggling to be an Orthodox in Spain.
The chair of St Peter is vacant and Western Romans are forsaken to their fate, without a Patriarch who watch over them, deprived of all. No hope remain for my land.

Our sins have destroyed all trace of our previous glory and no one even remembers the time when we still stood up to the enemies of the faith.There are no enough tears to wash out the blood of my brothers dead. And those who still walk in this world can’t see that they are trampling the bones and the blood of their own Fathers.

My land will never recover his Orthodox inheritance, the only orthodoxs in Western Romania are the brethren than come like immigrants. There is a Sin that never can be forgiven, that’s the sin of my people. I hope that the Eastern lands don’t stumble into the same stone than us. I really think that they are the only hope to the world."

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2013, 02:53:19 PM »
Dionysii, are you an American convert?
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2013, 03:01:26 PM »
Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2013, 03:10:00 PM »
Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:11:16 PM by Dionysii »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2013, 03:12:12 PM »
Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.

Oh no!  The R word strikes again. ::)
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2013, 03:16:46 PM »
To put it more acutely, this lack of morality more truly characterizes Sergianism.  Nikonianism is schismatic (heretical of the second rank), but not full heresy of the first rank.  True Nikonianism only survives in small dwindling groups like the Matthewites.  The majority of EO today are Sergianists, the wayward children of the Nikonians.   

What on earth...?

By this, I mean the Nikonian church has gotten worse over time.  Sergius is a reference to Stalin's patriarch Sergius Stragorodsky whose oecumenism with western heretics and general lack of spirituality characterizes this group today more so than Patriarch Nikon of the seventeenth century. 

The Nikonians seem to be losing even that little bit which they had.   They are going in the wide way feared by this Orthodox Christian from Spain:

"Former catholic struggling to be an Orthodox in Spain.
The chair of St Peter is vacant and Western Romans are forsaken to their fate, without a Patriarch who watch over them, deprived of all. No hope remain for my land.

Our sins have destroyed all trace of our previous glory and no one even remembers the time when we still stood up to the enemies of the faith.There are no enough tears to wash out the blood of my brothers dead. And those who still walk in this world can’t see that they are trampling the bones and the blood of their own Fathers.

My land will never recover his Orthodox inheritance, the only orthodoxs in Western Romania are the brethren than come like immigrants. There is a Sin that never can be forgiven, that’s the sin of my people. I hope that the Eastern lands don’t stumble into the same stone than us. I really think that they are the only hope to the world."

http://yuri-rimsky.tumblr.com/post/58244043026/on-account-of-the-angels-why-i-cover-my-head-by
Despite your many travels, I think you need to get around some more.
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Offline mike

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »
Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.

I'm not blaming you for anything. And actually, I do not think not being Russian is a bad thing (I even have a T-shirt saying "Thanks God, I'm not Russian"). Your point?
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »
Not that I always agree with Michal, but I don't think he's being racist here.  You have painted almost the entire Eastern Orthodox Church as "Nikonian" and "Sergianist" and basically *not the Orthodox Church*.  Unless I've missed something, the only real Orthodox according to you are the Old Believers, and that's an exclusively Russian phenomenon.  Theirs is a particular form of Russian Church and culture, while all the others you have dismissed as non-Orthodox have many cultures and traditions.  

It's not a jump to presume that joining such a group would entail to a great extent "becoming Russian", and it is not strange to marvel that non-Russians would be attracted to the faith and lifestyle, question why, etc.    
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2013, 03:28:50 PM »
Dionysii, are you an American convert?

Are you surprised? None of Old Believers here is Russian. I really doubt anyone can speak Russian.

This sounds racist and has been reported as such - blaming people for not being born into a given nationality.
There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »
Not that I always agree with Michal, but I don't think he's being racist here.  You have painted almost the entire Eastern Orthodox Church as "Nikonian" and "Sergianist" and basically *not the Orthodox Church*.  Unless I've missed something, the only real Orthodox according to you are the Old Believers
This much is accurate.  They're certainly not Avvakumites.
As to calling the followers of Nikon the Eastern Orthodox Church, I do not believe they are the Eastern Orthodox Church. 
The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   

  the Old Believers, and that's an exclusively Russian phenomenon.
That is false.  Old Believer parishes have always existed in parts of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey.  Old Believer Bela Krinitsa parishes exist today in the United States and South American countries as well as western europe. 

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2013, 03:37:26 PM »
There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
I appreciate your admitting that.  That says a mouthful.

Postscript:
If this is true, then I intend to broadcast it outside of this forum.  It says a lot about the nature of this forum.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:40:07 PM by Dionysii »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2013, 05:39:24 PM »
The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   

If that were true, they would not be completely dependent upon the "Nikonians" for their orders.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2013, 05:52:47 PM »
The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   
If that were true, they would not be completely dependent upon the "Nikonians" for their orders.

If you better understood apostolic succession, then you would not say that.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2013, 05:56:25 PM »
The issue of frequency of communion is another difference. 

Prior to the Kollyvades, it appears the Nikonians and Old Believers had the same practice. 
This is yet another area in which the change in the newer Nikonian practice conforms with trends in the Vatican's world: 

Pope Pius X's 1905 Decree on Frequency of Communion
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWFREQ.HTM

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2013, 06:02:33 PM »
Prior to the Kollyvades, it appears the Nikonians and Old Believers had the same practice. 
This is yet another area in which the change in the newer Nikonian practice conforms with trends in the Vatican's world:  

Pope Pius X's 1905 Decree on Frequency of Communion
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWFREQ.HTM

Er, I thought the Kollyvades came before Pope Pius X...  ???

They preceded him by one century or so.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:17:13 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2013, 06:38:46 PM »
They did. 

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2013, 06:43:43 PM »
They did. 

So then it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it, but if so - good for them! 

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2013, 06:49:31 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #129 on: August 27, 2013, 07:00:20 PM »
There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
I appreciate your admitting that.  That says a mouthful.

Postscript:
If this is true, then I intend to broadcast it outside of this forum.  It says a lot about the nature of this forum.
Go ahead and broadcast whatever you want about our forum. Maybe your efforts will draw more traffic here so people can actually see for themselves what this forum is about, rather than just take what you have to say about us at face value. ;D
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 07:01:29 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #130 on: August 27, 2013, 07:13:24 PM »
Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Flat Earth? When did that happen?

IIRC it's in the Cosmos thread. Scary stuff.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2013, 07:18:25 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 

That is an absurd claim. You just might as well say that we are so, because we both believe in the intercession of the saints.

Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2013, 07:20:00 PM »
Dionysii is one of my favorite forumers.  From flat earth theory to condemnation of St. Seraphim of Sarov, I can always count on a good chuckle.
Flat Earth? When did that happen?

IIRC it's in the Cosmos thread. Scary stuff.

Yeah, TheTrisagion showed me.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Once again, there is no evidence St. Seraphim was a smoker. Why give credence to the false claims of schismatics and enemies of the Church?
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2013, 07:29:35 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it
Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 
That is an absurd claim.

It's true.  They go to church together and pray together - all the time. 
They have communed together for many decades, and everybody knows it and sees it.


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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #135 on: August 27, 2013, 07:31:25 PM »
They have communed together for many decades, and everybody knows it and sees it.

Prove it.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #136 on: August 27, 2013, 07:31:47 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 

St. Ignatius of Antioch begs to differ.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #137 on: August 27, 2013, 07:32:33 PM »
Why give credence to the false claims of schismatics and enemies of the Church?
Oddly enough, I was wondering the same thing about you.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #138 on: August 27, 2013, 07:33:58 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine.  

They are parts of the same church.  

St. Ignatius of Antioch begs to differ.

I'll probably get punished for saying this, but it's true:  Your argument is not intelligent enough to merit a rejoinder.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 07:50:53 PM by Dionysii »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2013, 07:37:31 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it
Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 
That is an absurd claim.

It's true.  They go to church together and pray together - all the time. 
They have communed together for many decades, and everybody knows it and sees it.



Two things:

Firstly, you made that statement in connection to your claims about  the Kollyvades movement. Stop entangling other topics into this thread.

Secondly, despite the idividual actions of some priests and bishops, none of the Canonical Orthodox Churches recognize the roman catholic church's sacraments, they are therefore, per definition, not the same church.

I know this thread has already moved far beyond your absurd claims about St. Seraphim, but could we please try and finish one discussion before starting another?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #140 on: August 27, 2013, 07:39:37 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 

St. Ignatius of Antioch begs to differ.

I'll probably get punished for saying this, but it's true:  You're a moron.

What a delightfully intelligent argument.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #141 on: August 27, 2013, 07:41:13 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine. 

They are parts of the same church. 

St. Ignatius of Antioch begs to differ.

I'll probably get punished for saying this, but it's true:  You're a moron.

Yeah, you'll get into trouble.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2013, 07:48:15 PM »
despite the idividual actions of some priests and bishops, none of the Canonical Orthodox Churches recognize the roman catholic church's sacraments, they are therefore, per definition, not the same church.

1) The actions of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome characterize the body which they lead.  

2) True enough that the canonical orthodox church does not recognize the sacraments of Frankish heretics.  However, the Patriarchate of Constantinople is not canonical, it's not orthodox, and it's not a church.  

To be precise, the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow are heresies in communion with the pope in Rome.  
The photographs of these leaders in communion with each other since the Patr. Athenagoras and Pope Paul in the  1960's are available all over the internet.  

I have even heard of a source that asserted Patriarch Kyrill wears the robes of a western cardinal in his private Moscow office when not in public.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #143 on: August 27, 2013, 07:49:09 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine.  

They are parts of the same church.  

St. Ignatius of Antioch begs to differ.

I'll probably get punished for saying this, but it's true:  You're a moron.

What a delightfully intelligent argument.

If only it had been preceded by one.  I will only stoop so low.

EDIT:
Reasonable enough.  I modified it.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 07:51:37 PM by Dionysii »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2013, 07:52:46 PM »
I have even heard of a source that asserted Patriarch Kyrill wears the robes of a western cardinal in his private Moscow office when not in public.

Proof, or it didn't happen.  >:(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2013, 07:55:03 PM »
despite the idividual actions of some priests and bishops, none of the Canonical Orthodox Churches recognize the roman catholic church's sacraments, they are therefore, per definition, not the same church.

1) The actions of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome characterize the body which they lead.  

2) True enough that the canonical orthodox church does not recognize the sacraments of Frankish heretics.  However, the Patriarchate of Constantinople is not canonical, it's not orthodox, and it's not a church.  

To be precise, the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow are heresies in communion with the pope in Rome.  
The photographs of these leaders in communion with each other since the Patr. Athenagoras and Pope Paul in the  1960's are available all over the internet.  

I have even heard of a source that asserted Patriarch Kyrill wears the robes of a western cardinal in his private Moscow office when not in public.
Again, you are ignoring reality. You admit that we do not share communion and then goes on telling how we are in communion with each other. Do you even know what that word means?
And I would be very happy if you could share with us the "source" about Patriarch Kyrill.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 07:55:40 PM by Ansgar »
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #146 on: August 27, 2013, 07:59:42 PM »
If a person died in an accidental fire, such as a boiler exploded or they were the victim of arson, would we say about them, this means he or she can't become a saint? What is so special about dying in a fire?

Since I doubt St. Seraphim deliberately burned himself to death, didn't he essentially die in an unfortunate accident (if that anecdote about him dropping his pipe or something is true)? I mean, I'm sure even hearty tobacco pipe-users don't want to die in fires.

Just a thought.  ???

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #147 on: August 27, 2013, 08:01:38 PM »
I have even heard of a source that asserted Patriarch Kyrill wears the robes of a western cardinal in his private Moscow office when not in public.

Proof, or it didn't happen.  >:(
Okay.  I will ask the person who told me that and get back to you.  

In the meantime, it would do you westerners some good to watch 'Mr Smith Goes to Washington'.  
http://vimeo.com/49156759

Although I retract my statement calling Shangaied a "moron", my point was something needs to get you blockheads thinking and questioning the status quo. The fact that you accept these churches the way they are is disturbing to me.  

"You mean you can tell these senators what to do?" - Jimmy Stewart
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:02:13 PM by Dionysii »

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #148 on: August 27, 2013, 08:05:06 PM »
I have even heard of a source that asserted Patriarch Kyrill wears the robes of a western cardinal in his private Moscow office when not in public.

Proof, or it didn't happen.  >:(
Okay.  I will ask the person who told me that and get back to you.  

In the meantime, it would do you westerners some good to watch 'Mr Smith Goes to Washington'.  
http://vimeo.com/49156759

Although I retract my statement calling Shangaied a "moron", my point was something needs to get you blockheads thinking and questioning the status quo. The fact that you accept these churches the way they are is disturbing to me.  

"You mean you can tell these senators what to do?" - Jimmy Stewart
You take back calling a person a moron and then proceed to call us blockheads?
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2013, 08:09:22 PM »
You take back calling a person a moron and then proceed to call us blockheads?
That's right.  Furthermore, I think you've got all your energy in the wrong places.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2013, 08:11:56 PM »
it must have been the Latins that conformed to the trend set by the Kollyvades in this regard? I doubt it

Doubt it not.  The Latins and the Nikonians have both made the Kollyvades teaching on frequency of communion their official doctrine.  

They are parts of the same church.  

St. Ignatius of Antioch begs to differ.

I'll probably get punished for saying this, but it's true:  Your argument is not intelligent enough to merit a rejoinder.

"Gather together more frequently to celebrate the Lord's Eucharist and to praise Him," wrote St. Ignatius of Antioch.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2013, 08:12:13 PM »
I mean, I'm sure even hearty tobacco pipe-users don't want to die in fires.

Remember that scene in Ostrov when he started smoking the entire place out? Hmm...   (just kidding)

You take back calling a person a moron and then proceed to call us blockheads?

Perhaps he saw my pic in the other thread and was simply giving an accurate description?  8)

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2013, 08:13:25 PM »
You take back calling a person a moron and then proceed to call us blockheads?
That's right.  Furthermore, I think you've got all your energy in the wrong places.

Care to expand?
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2013, 08:17:43 PM »
I just got a pm and was about to open it thinking "well, it was nice being here while it lasted..."
It turned out to be a kind message from my friend Gebre replying to my message sympathizing with him for the way he's been treated on the forum.  :)

I mean, I'm sure even hearty tobacco pipe-users don't want to die in fires.

Remember that scene in Ostrov when he started smoking the entire place out? Hmm...   (just kidding)

lol.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2013, 08:32:17 PM »
The Bela Krinitsa are the Eastern Orthodox Church.   
If that were true, they would not be completely dependent upon the "Nikonians" for their orders.

If you better understood apostolic succession, then you would not say that.

At what point in the Church's history has she been completely dependent on heretics to maintain apostolic succession?

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2013, 08:32:40 PM »
Although I retract my statement calling Shangaied a "moron", my point was something needs to get you blockheads thinking and questioning the status quo. The fact that you accept these churches the way they are is disturbing to me. 

"You mean you can tell these senators what to do?" - Jimmy Stewart

Quote
On one occasion some heretics came to Abba Poimen and began to slander the Archbishop of Alexandria, saying that he had received his ordination from priests. The Elder was silent, then he called his disciple and told him: ”Set the table, give them to eat and dismiss them in peace”.

Moral: Is it a layman's business to superintend his bishop or the other way around?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:42:08 PM by Romaios »

Offline Keble

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Against Dionysian Trolling
« Reply #156 on: August 27, 2013, 08:33:59 PM »
I definitely plan to visit Russia. My fiancee and I are considering getting married in Russia (in a Bela Krinits Church, of course).

How's that divorce coming?

Don't know what I'm talking about? Weren't you still married, back in March?

Since my wife is a poor Honduran that cooks with wood in a mountain village, does not speak english, and worked as a cleaning lady for the equivalent of US$40 a month before we met[....]

If you're going to troll us, you should take some pains to get your story straight.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:35:04 PM by Keble »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #157 on: August 27, 2013, 08:35:13 PM »
All I know is, the longer I hang out around here the more confused I get.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Dionysian Trolling
« Reply #158 on: August 27, 2013, 08:43:24 PM »
Weren't you still married, back in March?
Since my wife is a poor Honduran that cooks with wood in a mountain village, does not speak english, and worked as a cleaning lady for the equivalent of US$40 a month before we met[....]

We are married in the secular government, but we have not yet been married in Church. 
That is why I say my fiancee. 

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #159 on: August 27, 2013, 08:57:57 PM »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Keble

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Re: Against Dionysian Trolling
« Reply #160 on: August 27, 2013, 09:15:50 PM »
Weren't you still married, back in March?
Since my wife is a poor Honduran that cooks with wood in a mountain village, does not speak english, and worked as a cleaning lady for the equivalent of US$40 a month before we met[....]

We are married in the secular government, but we have not yet been married in Church.  
That is why I say my fiancee.  

I remain dubious.

Also, if you are going to send a message to someone calling them a "n-gg-r", I would advise you to either (a) learn what the word actually means, or (b) get at least a photo of the person in question.

Anyway, I'm done here.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:20:56 PM by Keble »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #161 on: August 27, 2013, 09:29:58 PM »
I would advise you to get at least a photo of the person in question.
Permission granted to post a photo of yourself.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #162 on: August 27, 2013, 09:41:54 PM »
Anyway, I'm done here.
Good riddance.  Don't come back because you are uncivilized and degenerate.

People who seek to lead normal, holy lives like us are not interest in the comments of old perverts like yourself.
You ignorant comments reflect your own degenerate mindset.

At what point in the Church's history has she been completely dependent on heretics to maintain apostolic succession?

Heretics of the second rank - an important distinction.  All the bishops were annihilated in the late 1600's. 
The hierarchy was renewed circa 1846 with Saint Ambrose of Bosnia.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #163 on: August 27, 2013, 09:47:00 PM »
Anyway, I'm done here.
Good riddance.  Don't come back because you are uncivilized and degenerate.

People who seek to lead normal, holy lives like us are not interest in the comments of old perverts like yourself.
You ignorant comments reflect your own degenerate mindset.

Ok, I've come to the conclusion that Dionysii is just a parody version created by someone on the forum.  Now I just need to figure out who it is.  There is no way someone seriously writes this stuff and actually believes it.

Orthonorm, is that you?  Clever job, my man.  Well done. I take back all the bad things I said about you.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #164 on: August 27, 2013, 09:55:50 PM »
Anyway, I'm done here.
Good riddance.  Don't come back because you are uncivilized and degenerate.

People who seek to lead normal, holy lives like us are not interest in the comments of old perverts like yourself.
You ignorant comments reflect your own degenerate mindset.

Ok, I've come to the conclusion that Dionysii is just a parody version created by someone on the forum.  Now I just need to figure out who it is.  There is no way someone seriously writes this stuff and actually believes it.

Orthonorm, is that you?  Clever job, my man.  Well done. I take back all the bad things I said about you.

Considering the nature of the slew of nasty messages I have recently sent his way, I doubt Keble concurs with your conclusion.
 You are hereby banned for sending nasty and threatening PMs and for trolling the forum.  Good bye and good riddance!

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:56:11 PM by Dionysii »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #165 on: August 27, 2013, 09:56:00 PM »
There's no rule against submitting racist posts to this forum, as long as they don't violate any other rules.
I appreciate your admitting that.  That says a mouthful.

Postscript:
If this is true, then I intend to broadcast it outside of this forum.  It says a lot about the nature of this forum.

We are married in the secular government, but we have not yet been married in Church. 
That is why I say my fiancee. 

...
Also, if you are going to send a message to someone calling them a "n-gg-r", I would advise you to either (a) learn what the word actually means, or (b) get at least a photo of the person in question.
...

Well that's interesting...  :angel:

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #166 on: August 27, 2013, 10:03:10 PM »
Thus endeth the forum life of one of the more peculiar members at oc.net.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline LBK

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #167 on: August 27, 2013, 11:14:38 PM »
Thus endeth the forum life of one of the more peculiar members at oc.net.

... and not before time, too.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #168 on: August 28, 2013, 06:05:06 AM »
And we'll never find out what caused the meltdown. :P
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #169 on: August 28, 2013, 06:06:57 AM »
And we'll never find out what caused the meltdown. :P

Indeed. Schade, schade.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 06:07:11 AM by LBK »
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #170 on: August 28, 2013, 06:41:14 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Once again, there is no evidence St. Seraphim was a smoker. Why give credence to the false claims of schismatics and enemies of the Church?
Oh Pa, I was jus funnin.

Even a serious dude like me can have some fun.  But I really did smoke my pipe.  Doing it right now too.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #171 on: August 28, 2013, 06:55:58 AM »
I'm doing a little Seraphiming myself.  Enjoying a pipe.

Very good.  What has St. Seraphim inspired you to put in your bowl?

Once again, there is no evidence St. Seraphim was a smoker. Why give credence to the false claims of schismatics and enemies of the Church?

Just being facetious.  I do enjoy a good tobacco once in a while.  I think this thread has given enough credence to this guy as it is.
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #172 on: August 31, 2013, 05:29:22 AM »
 :) Have been asked many a time, "Smoke?", to which on my more liverish days I respond, "No, but I steam real good".

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #173 on: August 31, 2013, 06:21:04 AM »
:) Have been asked many a time, "Smoke?", to which on my more liverish days I respond, "No, but I steam real good".
I'm enjoying a pipe again right now.  I've had some vacation days so I actually have the time to smoke my pipe, but have to go back to work next week.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #174 on: August 31, 2013, 12:26:23 PM »
:) Have been asked many a time, "Smoke?", to which on my more liverish days I respond, "No, but I steam real good".
I'm enjoying a pipe again right now.  I've had some vacation days so I actually have the time to smoke my pipe, but have to go back to work next week.

If your pipe smoking has led you to study dead languages like other great pipe smokers, then at least it's done something productive.
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Re: Against Dionysian Trolling
« Reply #175 on: September 04, 2013, 01:26:01 PM »
I definitely plan to visit Russia. My fiancee and I are considering getting married in Russia (in a Bela Krinits Church, of course).

How's that divorce coming?

Don't know what I'm talking about? Weren't you still married, back in March?

Since my wife is a poor Honduran that cooks with wood in a mountain village, does not speak english, and worked as a cleaning lady for the equivalent of US$40 a month before we met[....]

If you're going to troll us, you should take some pains to get your story straight.

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #176 on: September 05, 2013, 12:56:12 AM »
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #177 on: September 29, 2013, 05:27:56 PM »
What bones do you guys have to pick with St. Seraphim of Sarov? He is one of the greatest saints of Russia, and a good example of a modern monastic (Modern in an Orthodox sense). The guy said "Cultivate the spirit of peace and thousands about thee shall be saved.@

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Re: SAINT Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #178 on: September 29, 2013, 06:00:03 PM »
What bones do you guys have to pick with St. Seraphim of Sarov? He is one of the greatest saints of Russia, and a good example of a modern monastic (Modern in an Orthodox sense). The guy Saint said "Cultivate the spirit of peace and thousands about thee shall be saved.@

Exactly.

BTW, I fixed it for you.

p.s. I edited the title too.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 06:03:02 PM by Maria »
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #179 on: September 29, 2013, 07:55:02 PM »
p.s. I edited the title too.
You didn't need to. There's no forum requirement that an Old Believer must recognize a monk of the 'Nikonian' church as a saint, especially when doing so would destroy his criticism of the monk.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 08:02:45 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #180 on: October 01, 2013, 01:51:27 PM »
By the way, there are yedinovertsy even in ROCOR who commemorate New-Rite bishops but follow the Old Rite. I respect those who can do so, because they serve exactly according to the Typikon, and the Typikon's services are difficult to do. I taught myself to cross with two fingers as well as three, and now I am trying to incorporate the "seven bow beginning" to be more consistent.The differences between us and the Old Believers are ones of ritual, so the Edinovertsy are a good start, and it was a positive development that ROCOR has a bishop who uses the Old Rite and was consecrated according to the  Old Rite. Maybe more bishops like that will be ordained in the future.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #181 on: October 01, 2013, 03:00:52 PM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker.

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...
Translation please.

And this story has been spread among the raskolniki until this day. (cf. Mt. 28:15)

It has come to our attention that you used schismatic in a different language, "raskolniki":

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53277.msg977614.html#msg977614

Please refer to my previous warning I gave to Dionysii:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25531.msg965739.html#msg965739

It seems to me Dionysii comes from the Old Calendar tradition, which though in schism, it's against the rules to call "schismatic".  Please try to avoid direct judgments, and rather use non-inflammatory language when referring to a group not united to your Church.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013

Not debating the moderator's decision when it comes to portraying Old Calendarists. But wasn't it true that at that time in Russian history those who Romaios was talking about who crossed differently were in schism from the Church?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:01:16 PM by rakovsky »

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #182 on: October 01, 2013, 03:57:20 PM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker.

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...
Translation please.

And this story has been spread among the raskolniki until this day. (cf. Mt. 28:15)

It has come to our attention that you used schismatic in a different language, "raskolniki":

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53277.msg977614.html#msg977614

Please refer to my previous warning I gave to Dionysii:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25531.msg965739.html#msg965739

It seems to me Dionysii comes from the Old Calendar tradition, which though in schism, it's against the rules to call "schismatic".  Please try to avoid direct judgments, and rather use non-inflammatory language when referring to a group not united to your Church.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013

Not debating the moderator's decision when it comes to portraying Old Calendarists. But wasn't it true that at that time in Russian history those who Romaios was talking about who crossed differently were in schism from the Church?

Does it require to call others names?
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #183 on: October 01, 2013, 04:12:50 PM »
I think that the proper term for such as Dionysii would be Old Believer or Old Ritualist. The Old Calendarists are a different beast, having separated from the Orthodox Church over ecumenism. I hear about Canon 15 that authorizes separation from heretical bishops, but I don't remember which council it belongs to. The Old Ritualist schism happened because Nikon was acting in an ill-advised and excessively forceful way to suppress the Old Rite. Fortunately, more recent Russian bishops have realized the mistakes that their predecessors have made. Hopefully there will be true union between those of the Old and New Rite. At least there are no theological differences between Old and New Rites.

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #184 on: October 02, 2013, 09:41:00 PM »
I think that the proper term for such as Dionysii would be Old Believer or Old Ritualist. The Old Calendarists are a different beast, having separated from the Orthodox Church over ecumenism.
This is true.  It might be noted that the rituals of both Greek New and Old Calendarists equally come from the uniates.  
On the surface, oecumenism was not involved in the Nikonian schism.  However, this pro-union essay clearly shows the hand of the papacy acting through Antioch in the modification of seventeenth century Russian liturgies and the papacy's maneuvers in favor of Nikon.  

Conception of Union in Antioch (1622-1722)
http://phoenicia.org/orthodox_antioch_union.html


At least there are no theological differences between Old and New Rites.
The truth is that seventeenth century Nikonians are a different beast from its descendent the Moscow Patriarchate of today which is more accurately termed Sergianist.  The view that no theological differences exist between Nikonians and the Old Rite does have a degree of truth with regard to the ancient Nikonians which is why the Old Rite distinguished them as second order heretics as opposed to full heretics which means that they could canonically use them to renew their hierarchy.  The early nineteenth century Patriarchate of Constantinople was not oecumenist at the time of Saint Ambrose of Bosnia.  The fact that this Ottoman Greek bishop he is at the fountainhead of the entire Bela Krinitsa hierarchy gives the lie to claims of anti-Old Rite propaganda that the Old Rite is allegedly an ethnic Russian thing.  Anyone who reckons oecumenism is not a concern which the Old Rite views as a heresy has a shock coming.

p.s. I edited the title too.
You didn't need to. There's no forum requirement that an Old Believer must recognize a monk of the 'Nikonian' church as a saint, especially when doing so would destroy his criticism of the monk.
Appreciate that.

You are now on indefinite post moderation on the very strong suspicion that you are the banned poster Dionysii. We do not permit a user to open multiple accounts on this forum, especially when the intent is to open a second account because your first account is banned. If you have any questions about this rule or this warning, please send me a private message.

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 You are banned for creating a duplicate account.

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« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:39:12 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #185 on: October 02, 2013, 10:08:06 PM »
It seems like such an absurd thing to me, that the Church of Christ should have to depend on heretics to revive its hierarchy.

It seems equally absurd to me that it should have lost it at all.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #186 on: October 05, 2013, 09:42:51 AM »
It seems like such an absurd thing to me, that the Church of Christ should have to depend on heretics to revive its hierarchy.

It seems equally absurd to me that it should have lost it at all.

Don't worry, neither of those things actually happened.
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