Author Topic: Against Serafim of Sarov  (Read 5955 times)

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Offline Dionysii

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Against Serafim of Sarov
« on: August 24, 2013, 01:31:24 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 01:34:33 PM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?
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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 01:40:06 PM »
What's the point of this thread?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 01:42:51 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 01:46:16 PM »
Really! If anything this gives me MORE hope in the loving kindness of God not less...

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 01:54:41 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 01:57:09 PM »
There is no proof St. Seraphim of Sarov was a smoker. Obviously, many raskol'niki had a beef with him because when they visited him, he would put their fingers together (in three) and say, "May the Cross this way."

Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

It is amazing these people look for additional condemnation.

Please refer to this message to Romaios:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53277.msg977614.html#msg977614

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August 27, 2013
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:51:24 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline biro

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 01:58:36 PM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

I used to smoke. I won't make any excuses. However, I did quit.

Smoking may be a sin, as perhaps an abuse of the body which is the temple of God, but we all sin in something. I believe that God forgives. It is possible that St. Seraphim repented before he died. Therefore, I do not see that a smoking problem would be enough to completely deny him sainthood. Just my thoughts.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 02:05:28 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

The implication of the OP was that the true sources had been suppressed and that only the raskol'niki had the true, secret knowledge. That sort of fits with the gnosticism many of them adopted.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 02:21:24 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 02:35:43 PM »
I used to smoke. I won't make any excuses. However, I did quit.

Bravo.

It is possible that St. Seraphim repented before he died.
That is controverted by the facts.  At least as far as smoking goes, you have done better than he did.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2013, 02:49:50 PM »
Which universally recognized authority condemns tobacco use?  ???
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Offline Nathanael

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2013, 03:21:54 PM »
Yessss, Old Believers knew best how St. Seraphim Sarov lifestyle was, because especially Old Believers had lived so close with him.
Source criticism!!! Only Old Beleivers sources.. - is not very convincing. It's like Old Calendarist talking about Elder Porphyrios and Elder Paisios - boring.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 03:22:14 PM by Nathanael »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2013, 07:03:45 PM »
Which universally recognized authority condemns tobacco use?  ???

I hope this isn't going to be like the marijuana thread...
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Offline mike

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2013, 07:05:42 PM »
Which universally recognized authority condemns tobacco use?  ???

I hope this isn't going to be like the marijuana thread...

Need to smoke. Having a cig. Now.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2013, 07:15:57 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2013, 09:14:02 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

Pages 30-31 are not included in the Google Books preview. Judging by the first essay in the book those pages would be where the source materials used would be listed.  Since this looks like a volume with good scholarly standards, I would be very surprised if there wasn't something on those pages in the book proper.  How available the book is so that one might check is the question. 

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2013, 09:17:33 PM »
It is possible that St. Seraphim repented before he died.
That is controverted by the facts.  At least as far as smoking goes, you have done better than he did.

The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.  That they apparently made statements against St. Serafim of Sarov (as well as others) does not make them facts and certainly not without some corroborating sources. 
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2013, 09:31:32 PM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2013, 09:39:08 PM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

The Old Believer "legend" that the essay is about says that he "suffocated from a smoldering fire lit when he dropped his pipe onto a heap of rags" (page 27). 
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2013, 09:49:40 PM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

The Old Believer "legend" that the essay is about says that he "suffocated from a smoldering fire lit when he dropped his pipe onto a heap of rags" (page 27). 
Ah.  Thanks for explaining.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2013, 10:36:38 PM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

If your purpose is to ruin the good name and works of St. Seraphim of Sarov, it hasn't worked.  What is your next beef with the MP ?

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2013, 10:38:29 PM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

Me thinks you may have picked the wrong forum to vent your dislike of St. Seraphim..

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2013, 10:51:50 PM »
I was not aware that all saints were required to have the same level of sinlessness as the Theotokos before they could be canonized.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2013, 12:01:32 AM »
I was not aware that all saints were required to have the same level of sinlessness as the Theotokos before they could be canonized.

As long as you don't inhale, you're good.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2013, 12:34:20 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2013, 12:40:51 AM »
Why is tobacco use such a significant problem?

Me thinks you may have picked the wrong forum to vent your dislike of St. Seraphim..
It wasn't Asteriktos who posted the attempt to slander St. Seraphim.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2013, 01:05:47 AM »

That is controverted by the facts.  At least as far as smoking goes, you have done better than he did.

Dionysii, you are usually good about thinking outside of the box. Are you capable of doing so here?

Offline LBK

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2013, 01:19:21 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false

Not this crock again. Sheesh.  :P :P ::)
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2013, 01:20:34 AM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2013, 03:06:16 AM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker.

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...
Translation please.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 03:07:16 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

Pages 30-31 are not included in the Google Books preview. Judging by the first essay in the book those pages would be where the source materials used would be listed.  Since this looks like a volume with good scholarly standards, I would be very surprised if there wasn't something on those pages in the book proper.  How available the book is so that one might check is the question. 



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Offline converted viking

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2013, 07:32:02 AM »
Smoking tobacco and alcoholism were the normality for clergy in Romanov Russia, and this included the Monk Seraphim of Sarov whom the Nikonians believe to be a saint.  As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker. 

This fact is attested to in English language in the book 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William Husband:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihn4GI1lmnsC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=seraphim+sarov,+human+tradition+in+modern+russia&source=bl&ots=WAWI3KfSTq&sig=L-q2ujcvdUFpy-3itZvLtaV7XT8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d-8YUooyqqrbBcXMgYgP&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seraphim%20sarov%2C%20human%20tradition%20in%20modern%20russia&f=false


Oh pleaseeeeee give me a break.  What a load of rubbish !   Where is my pipe?  I am going to stuff that sucker and torch it off.   

Viking<Seraphim>

Offline Romaios

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2013, 09:43:29 AM »
As a matter of fact, Monk Seraphim of Sarov was such a habitual smoker that he died from the smoke of his pipe.  His disciple lied about this and his devotees perpetuate this lie, but all those who knew the Nikonian Monk Seraphim of Sarov personally knew that he was an adamant pipe smoker.

I promchesya slovo sie vo raskolnikah dazhe do sego dne...
Translation please.

And this story has been spread among the raskolniki until this day. (cf. Mt. 28:15)

It has come to our attention that you used schismatic in a different language, "raskolniki":

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53277.msg977614.html#msg977614

Please refer to my previous warning I gave to Dionysii:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25531.msg965739.html#msg965739

It seems to me Dionysii comes from the Old Calendar tradition, which though in schism, it's against the rules to call "schismatic".  Please try to avoid direct judgments, and rather use non-inflammatory language when referring to a group not united to your Church.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:42:16 PM by minasoliman »

Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2013, 09:48:35 AM »
He died from the smoke of his pipe?  How so?

The Old Believer "legend" that the essay is about says that he "suffocated from a smoldering fire lit when he dropped his pipe onto a heap of rags" (page 27). 
Ah.  Thanks for explaining.

You're welcome.   :)
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2013, 09:49:10 AM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references? I didn't any references to historical documents, chronicles, personal letters or anything. Source Criticism is the first thing you learn when studying history.

Again, maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find anything.

Pages 30-31 are not included in the Google Books preview. Judging by the first essay in the book those pages would be where the source materials used would be listed.  Since this looks like a volume with good scholarly standards, I would be very surprised if there wasn't something on those pages in the book proper.  How available the book is so that one might check is the question. 



Ah, thank you.

I'm glad to be of service.   :)
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2013, 10:19:41 AM »
No good sources.

Btw, what if he did smoke? You realize that the world did not know that smoking was harmful for your health until the time of World War II? The Germans were the first to realize it, with Adolf Hitler giving up tobacco, and then the rest of the world discovered it around the close of the war.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2013, 12:43:47 PM »
Now, St. Nikolai Velimirovic was a smoker.

I was unaware of that.  Appreciate the information.
Apparently it is misinformation about St. Nikolaj
Type in youtube "Vladika Nikolaj nije pusio duvan" or go to http://tinyurl.com/kp83dob

Regaradless if Sts Serafim or Nikolaj or someone else smoked it does not question their sainthood...that is the purpose of this thread, right? I do not know of any Saints who were perfect...but they became perfect through God.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2013, 12:52:59 PM »
No good sources.

Btw, what if he did smoke? You realize that the world did not know that smoking was harmful for your health until the time of World War II? The Germans were the first to realize it, with Adolf Hitler giving up tobacco, and then the rest of the world discovered it around the close of the war.

We have known that tobacco was bad for you for hundreds of years...
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
I am not sure about eveidence for or against St. Nikolai smoking, but it is definitely hard to find a Serb who doesnt smoke. It is just a very universal practice in Serbia, including priests and monks.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2013, 01:16:50 PM »
I am not sure about eveidence for or against St. Nikolai smoking, but it is definitely hard to find a Serb who doesnt smoke. It is just a very universal practice in Serbia, including priests and monks.

Monks!!!   :o
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2013, 01:30:22 PM »
^St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in probably the most famous EO book on monasticism in contemporary times, basically excused tobacco use, saying that if you couldn't give it up that you should at least use it in private so as not to tempt others.

Does this not show the depths of depravity that the EO have fallen to since the pure Old believers left?  8)
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2013, 01:40:18 PM »
Only one is perfect, The God Man. Saints being human have their flaws. Saint Seraphim's flaws are unknown to me and many, I suspect. His Herculean struggle is known as is his Christian love for those who approached him.

Other than any betrayal of Orthodoxy the only flaws that really concern me are my own.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2013, 01:53:16 PM »
No good sources.

Btw, what if he did smoke? You realize that the world did not know that smoking was harmful for your health until the time of World War II? The Germans were the first to realize it, with Adolf Hitler giving up tobacco, and then the rest of the world discovered it around the close of the war.

We have known that tobacco was bad for you for hundreds of years...

Actually, he didn't totally miss the mark. In the first half of the 20th century, you could still find doctors who would prescripe tobacco as medicin.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Against Serafim of Sarov
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2013, 03:21:57 PM »
Maybe I just didn't look closely enough, but where are the source references?
Further sources are mentioned in the accounts preserved by Old Believers. 
It is prejudiced to dismiss these accounts without reading or knowing what they have to say.  They may very well preserve information from the past exactly as it occurred.  The Old Believers have a reputation for that.

What's the point of this thread?
The point is to make known an historical tradition about Monk Seraphim of Sarov which is very different from the positive Nikonian portrayal.  The Russian language has both representations, but the English language is disproportionately represented by the Nikonian only.