Author Topic: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)  (Read 27948 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2013, 12:42:35 AM »
Apparently on oc.net, we can debate and agree to disagree on gay marriage, contraception, and a number of other controversial topics, but when the evils of pacifism are advocated, it must be countered by attempts at public shaming and personal attacks.

This will be the last time that I will try to clarify my OP. I am not attacking Gebres stance on pacifism, I am pointing out his errors in misusing church fathers, and contemporary sources, to prove his point. I have discussed this particular issue with him, and some others, over the past couple of years. I have spoken to him privately on many occasions, as have others, that he cannot misuse anyone, especially church fathers. This is misleading and very dishonest. It would not matter what topic it was, if he or anyone is misusing church fathers to try and justify their stance, they are wrong. Again, I thought I made clear that pacifism itself is not the issue.

The only time I have a problem with pacifists is when they join the military or some other organization which organically requires the use of force at times, like law enforcement.  If they knew they couldn’t use violence, why join that organization.  I personally have a problem with them when they refuse to aid someone in dire need of assistance and that person ends up dead…or worse.  However, they must make the choices they make and if someone understands the ECF’s to teach a life without violence, then that is the way they see it and who are we to try and change their minds?  People see things differently and many times in direct conflict with Church teaching, but we make excuses and pacify (pun intended) them in their heretical views.  

Gebre doesn’t like violence, he sees the Church teaching peace and therefore he understands Church views as non-violent.  If he lives his life this way and isn’t a flip-flopper like some people are on their unstable faith, I take no issue.  

Why not simply try to understand his point of view rather than fight against it?  We have people here accepting all sorts of serious wrongs.  This is not the fight (pun intended again) to take up on OC.net.

What he does is in no way any different than what you are doing right now, in this thread, against a pacifistic view.
You just don't get it, do you? Ioannes has stated repeatedly that he's not arguing against Gebre's pacifism per se. Ioannes's big problem with Gebre, which he has stated very clearly many times, is the intellectual dishonesty Gebre employs in his work to make it appear as if his personal views are the universal teaching of the Gospel and the Church.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 12:45:59 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2013, 12:45:27 AM »

If he's done something wrong, why does his priest not intercede?  

If someone, particularly a layman, wishes to embark on writing a book where Orthodox teachings are presented, and presented as authoritative and definitive, then at the very least, he ask for a blessing from his priest or bishop to do so. Even better, the manuscript should also be vetted by a priest or bishop prior to publication.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 12:45:45 AM by LBK »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2013, 12:47:40 AM »

I agree.

I assume Gebre's priest was aware, and has read his book.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2013, 12:49:12 AM »

I agree.

I assume Gebre's priest was aware, and has read his book.

Over to you, Gebre.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2013, 12:53:53 AM »

You are both doing what you think is right.

I respect you both for being so adamant and loving your Church so much, as to actually take a stance one way or the other.

I do not agree with misrepresenting Church teachings, however, I also do not agree with ganging up on someone.

If he's done something wrong, why does his priest not intercede? 

Honestly, I have no idea. I have asked him a number of times who his priest was. The website he had given me a while ago was either incorrect or something because I contacted the priest and he did not know who I was talking about. However, Gebre told me before that he is part of, what we consider a schismatic group, but later claimed he never said this. So I am currently speaking with EOTC clergy to try and get this matter cleared up.

I am sorry if you feel I am ganging up on him, one person is hardly a gang. I think this thread shows that the people are heavily in favor of Gebre. Again, my intent is not malicious in any way. Gebre had full knowledge of this prior to it happening and like I said, we have been discussing this issue for some time, this is not the only instance in which he has misused the writings of the fathers or just plain made up quotes.

Now, this is just speculation on my part but I am not so sure that his priest knows what is going on. And the reason I say this is because there are some inconsistencies in his book, not only that the picture he uses in his book shows him with a traditional Ethiopian head wrap on, the problem is that it is clearly a womans head wrap. A priest would have immediately noticed this and informed him. Look, Gebre is not a dumb guy by any means, he is very intelligent and he is certainly very kind and well mannered. But the simple fact is, he was well aware of this for some time.

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2013, 12:58:30 AM »

If he's done something wrong, why does his priest not intercede?  

If someone, particularly a layman, wishes to embark on writing a book where Orthodox teachings are presented, and presented as authoritative and definitive, then at the very least, he ask for a blessing from his priest or bishop to do so. Even better, the manuscript should also be vetted by a priest or bishop prior to publication.

Exactly and I do not see this in his book. He does thank a couple of priests but has not been forthcoming about who actually approved the book itself. He also, as I just mentioned, has not been forthcoming as to which church he belongs to as I have gotten two different answers at two different times. At first, it was the schismatic group, when I questioned him on this his tune changed. I am not saying he is schismatic, I am just saying he has not been clear on the issue. But I do not think a priest actually read all 578 pages and approved it, and if so then he failed to catch a few things, including the picture and Gebre failed to clearly state who approved it.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2013, 01:04:21 AM »
Ioannes,

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that you have written a book.  Was it officially approved by your priest or bishop?

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2013, 01:07:14 AM »
Ioannes,

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that you have written a book.  Was it officially approved by your priest or bishop?

Actually my first one was not, and I learned a very valuable lesson from that. I published a work about a year or so after I was baptized, and had no idea what I should have done. Have written a few after and those have all been cleared through a priest, and my newest one was cleared by a bishop. I also make sure that this is clearly stated in my books. I also submit my work for a sort of peer review, to believers and non-believers alike.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2013, 01:07:59 AM »
You are assuming he didn't get priestly approval, or his priest is unaware of the book's contents.

I'm almost certain he did get permission, and that his priest IS aware of the book.

Thereby, it is his priest's responsibility to correct him, if/when he had said something wrong.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2013, 01:10:16 AM »
You are assuming he didn't get priestly approval, or his priest is unaware of the book's contents.

I'm almost certain he did get permission, and that his priest IS aware of the book.

Thereby, it is his priest's responsibility to correct him, if/when he had said something wrong.



If his priest is unaware of the discussions and things he writes online, how can he correct what he does not see? I have his book, so perhaps you could direct me to the page which shows who approved it? Remember, I said I am assuming this for some specific reasons, I did not say "I KNOW it was not."

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #100 on: August 26, 2013, 01:11:41 AM »
You are assuming he didn't get priestly approval, or his priest is unaware of the book's contents.
Isn't this an assumption on your part, Liza?

I'm almost certain he did get permission, and that his priest IS aware of the book.
How are you so certain of this?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #101 on: August 26, 2013, 01:12:21 AM »
You are assuming he didn't get priestly approval, or his priest is unaware of the book's contents.

I'm almost certain he did get permission, and that his priest IS aware of the book.

Thereby, it is his priest's responsibility to correct him, if/when he had said something wrong.



Then why be cagey about who the priest is?  ??? This is what I can't understand.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #102 on: August 26, 2013, 01:14:49 AM »

I know this because he has told me so.

...and do we know every poster's priest and parish?

There's a reason so few posters, and most who are posting in this thread, do not use their real names.

So, why are you asking publicly which parish he belongs to?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #103 on: August 26, 2013, 01:18:27 AM »

I know this because he has told me so.

...and do we know every poster's priest and parish?

There's a reason so few posters, and most who are posting in this thread, do not use their real names.

So, why are you asking publicly which parish he belongs to?

If he did get approval, he failed to put it in his book. He thanks his priest amongst a large list of other people he thanked, but never states that the words contained therein are approved by either a bishop or priest. Just because he said it, does not mean it is true...as the OP demonstrates he has said many things, some of which were dishonest.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #104 on: August 26, 2013, 01:21:52 AM »

Perhaps he simply wasn't aware of proper authoring etiquette.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #105 on: August 26, 2013, 01:26:27 AM »

Perhaps he simply wasn't aware of proper authoring etiquette.



Well, that certainly could be true, I was also mistaken in not seeking approval with my first book. However, I did not tell people that it was in fact approved when it was not. But regardless, this thread was supposed to be addressing the specific issue that I spoke of, not if Gebres book was properly approved or not. If I had time to go through each of the 578 pages and find every error, I would, but I figure this would suffice as this is my major issue that I see with him, and see it consistently in many things he has written.

I am not sure what else I can tell you Liza.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #106 on: August 26, 2013, 02:03:04 AM »
I was able to get Gebre to sort of contradict himself regarding pacifism. As much as he promotes pacifism, he simply can't get past his extreme love of a certain Ethiopian that was indeed anything but a pacifist in defending his country.

When Gebre first was active on this site, he was already writing the aformentioned book. At that time my husband was deploying/deployed to Afghanistan. Many, many of his posts from around that time were militant pacifist posts. To the extent that he believes that those in the armed forces shouldn't be prayed for because they are sinful and wrong. He was most certainly informed that he should have it approved by his priest/bishop. People on this very board told him this before he self published.

If you want to be a pacifist, be a pacifist. But don't attempt to say you speak for all of Orthodoxy.

As I recall his priest is sort of an Ethiopian Orthodox priest. Sort of in the sense that he isn't exactly Ethiopian Orthodox. So getting it approved by a Bishop would be...er...challenging.

Unless things have distinctly changed, he is Ethiopian Orthodox but attends Eastern Orthodox churches. I believe at some point he attended our own Fr. Chris's parish?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 02:05:33 AM by Quinault »

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #107 on: August 26, 2013, 02:08:22 AM »
I was able to get Gebre to sort of contradict himself regarding pacifism. As much as he promotes pacifism, he simply can't get past his extreme love of a certain Ethiopian that was indeed anything but a pacifist in defending his country.

When Gebre first was active on this site, he was already writing the aformentioned book. At that time my husband was deploying/deployed to Afghanistan. Many, many of his posts from around that time were militant pacifist posts. To the extent that he believes that those in the armed forces shouldn't be prayed for because they are sinful and wrong.

If you want to be a pacifist, be a pacifist. But don't attempt to say you speak for all of Orthodoxy.

As I recall his priest is sort of an Ethiopian Orthodox priest. Sort of in the sense that he isn't exactly Ethiopian Orthodox.

That is the problem, Gebre calls out all sorts of people, but when he himself is called out, he refuses to engage. I have asked him how he justifies the actions of Haile Selassie, and his patriarch at the time who is schismatic Abune Merkorios. He literally refused to discuss the matter, saying that he would not tolerate anyone speaking negatively of them.

I also pointed out that the same people he quotes, for instance St John Chrysostom, praise soldiers. St George was a soldier, so was St. Felix, St. Theodore, etc. I also asked him how he justifies his love of football, and to my knowledge he does enjoy boxing. Again, he dances around the issue. Even though the same writers he quotes, Tertullian, St John, speak very negatively of theater and the sports, at least of their day.

Despite is inconsistency, what I am addressing is that he stops misusing the writings of others to justify his stance.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #108 on: August 26, 2013, 02:13:06 AM »
Well, I thought it would be right and just to give him an opportunity to directly address the letter before making it public.

To ensure I understand, this letter is a correspondence between the two of you?

Like I said, I took every action I could before coming to this decision.

Instead of just accepting he believes the Church teaches to be non-violent?

Admit he was wrong? Not on his stance on pacifism as I had told him repeatedly that this was a non-issue, it was his means of going about proving it, misusing church fathers and thereby misleading people.

In your opinion, yes?

Yes, I would hope that he would say "Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean." Or something along those lines.

Why would he do this if he does not believe what you are saying?


So, no response?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #109 on: August 26, 2013, 02:16:36 AM »
Since the Church teachings on pacifism, or at least it is said to be, is the reason for this thread, what exactly is the Churches official teaching on pacifism and/or violence?  Do we have one?

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #110 on: August 26, 2013, 02:19:42 AM »
It has been explained to me that pacifism is the preference, but not the rule.

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #111 on: August 26, 2013, 02:37:56 AM »
Since the Church teachings on pacifism, or at least it is said to be, is the reason for this thread, what exactly is the Churches official teaching on pacifism and/or violence?  Do we have one?

To answer your first question, I would hope that this was nothing more than a misunderstanding, that he did not realize he was misusing the church fathers.

Yes, we have to take the fathers in context. St Hippolytus was speaking during a time when the Roman Military was being used to persecute Christians, so of course he is not going to say "go join the military." St Basil does speak of this that military is at times a necessary evil, which is spoke of in the OP. St John Chrysostom as well. The fact that Gebre cherry picks from their writings, as if the particular quotes he gives speak for all their teachings is dishonest and misleading.

Gebre consistently demeans the military and those that serve, even though many saints were soldiers. Please refer to the original post.

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #112 on: August 26, 2013, 02:52:51 AM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:
“Sometimes we just need to remain silent. This is very difficult when lies and false accusations about us are being proliferated by those who are either mentally disturbed or demonically driven. Or maybe they just have some sort of personal grudge against us. But it gets to the point where answering every attack and responding to every false accusation saps one’s energy and drains one’s soul. The truth will always prevail in the end, and our true friends and true brethren will not be swayed by the malicious opinions of those who falsely malign us. Sadly, not everyone who calls us ‘friend’ and ‘brother’ is truly a friend and a brother. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from their negativity and spite, and just let their vitriolic torches burn themselves out. Unfortunately, they may deceive a lot of people along the way, and they may even succeed in damaging our reputation and character. But when this happens, remember that Our Lord Himself was accused of gluttony and drunkenness. (St. Matthew 11:19) God knows our hearts, and when we are accused unjustly, unfairly, and untruthfully, the best response is to simply rest silently and peacefully in Our Lord’s unconditional love.” Selam, +GMK+ (https://www.facebook.com/gebre.menfeskidus?fref=ts)

Again, this is what I am talking about. Anytime any accusation or criticism is leveled against him, he fails to address it, then paints himself as a martyr of some kind. I am not sure exactly why he continues and does not just address why it is that he sees fit to misuse church fathers? And note, its never his fault or anything that he could be responsible for, there is always an excuse. I feel I have been consistent and very clear on the issue, apparently Gebre thinks this is a personal attack. How am I deceiving people in pointing out Gebre's clear misuse of others writings?

I can only hope that at the very least others see that he has been dishonest and entirely unwilling to admit it or at the very least address it. I accused him, but it was just, and fair, and truthful, as can clearly be seen in the OP. I quoted him directly and showed each point where he was incorrect. :(

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #113 on: August 26, 2013, 02:55:22 AM »
It's in the politics section, but here is a refresher:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19779.0.html

I think we can't quote from politics, but it is OK to link to a thread? If it isn't please delete this comment mods.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 02:55:57 AM by Quinault »

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #114 on: August 26, 2013, 02:59:54 AM »
It's in the politics section, but here is a refresher:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19779.0.html

I think we can't quote from politics, but it is OK to link to a thread? If it isn't please delete this comment mods.

It doesnt work for me, but is it relevant to the OP at least?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #115 on: August 26, 2013, 03:01:09 AM »
Well, I thought it would be right and just to give him an opportunity to directly address the letter before making it public.

To ensure I understand, this letter is a correspondence between the two of you?

Like I said, I took every action I could before coming to this decision.

Instead of just accepting he believes the Church teaches to be non-violent?

Admit he was wrong? Not on his stance on pacifism as I had told him repeatedly that this was a non-issue, it was his means of going about proving it, misusing church fathers and thereby misleading people.

In your opinion, yes?

Yes, I would hope that he would say "Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean." Or something along those lines.

Why would he do this if he does not believe what you are saying?


So, no response?

I am unclear if you provided a response to this inquiry so I will say if the two of you were communicating in private, you should not have put any of that here.  I am not certain if it was private or not, but just in case it was.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2013, 03:01:54 AM »
If you don't have access to politics, you won't be able to see it. It is a thread he started that was about how one shouldn't pray for deployed troops because it is promoting or at the very least condoning war.

He implied that I was brainwashed...you know standard, loving, peaceful pacifist rhetoric ::)

I will confess to losing my cool and not being as polite as I could have been. I could point out that I was a pregnant, single mother of 3, and my husband was in Afghanistan, but that isn't a good excuse.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 03:09:37 AM by Quinault »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2013, 03:04:46 AM »
Since the Church teachings on pacifism, or at least it is said to be, is the reason for this thread, what exactly is the Churches official teaching on pacifism and/or violence?  Do we have one?

To answer your first question, I would hope that this was nothing more than a misunderstanding, that he did not realize he was misusing the church fathers.

Yes, we have to take the fathers in context. St Hippolytus was speaking during a time when the Roman Military was being used to persecute Christians, so of course he is not going to say "go join the military." St Basil does speak of this that military is at times a necessary evil, which is spoke of in the OP. St John Chrysostom as well. The fact that Gebre cherry picks from their writings, as if the particular quotes he gives speak for all their teachings is dishonest and misleading.

Gebre consistently demeans the military and those that serve, even though many saints were soldiers. Please refer to the original post.

What I am getting at here is, if there is an official Church view we should adhere to it but if there is not, as with so many other things (unfortunately), it is open for people to interpret as they think is correct.  Without an official teaching/view/stand by the Church, what purpose does it serve to say one person is reading the EFC's the wrong way and that other person saying the same thing about you?  

In reference to the cherry picking, I have seen A LOT of people do that here.  Unless they admit they are incorrect in doing so, they should not complain about it when others do the same thing, if they are doing the same thing.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 03:06:23 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2013, 03:10:16 AM »
Well, I thought it would be right and just to give him an opportunity to directly address the letter before making it public.

To ensure I understand, this letter is a correspondence between the two of you?

Like I said, I took every action I could before coming to this decision.

Instead of just accepting he believes the Church teaches to be non-violent?

Admit he was wrong? Not on his stance on pacifism as I had told him repeatedly that this was a non-issue, it was his means of going about proving it, misusing church fathers and thereby misleading people.

In your opinion, yes?

Yes, I would hope that he would say "Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean." Or something along those lines.

Why would he do this if he does not believe what you are saying?


So, no response?

I am unclear if you provided a response to this inquiry so I will say if the two of you were communicating in private, you should not have put any of that here.  I am not certain if it was private or not, but just in case it was.

What is spoken of in the OP is on his facebook and or in his book. Gebre and I have had many discussions and we both know many things about each other. I love the man as a brother and if I were being malicious I could certainly do so and get very personal, however, this is not malicious.

If Gebre were to read this letter I think he would understand that I am not against his personal belief in pacifism, and I have told him that several times, as have many others. As I clearly demonstrate the issue is him misusing, and in some cases making up quotes, from others, namely church fathers. I am not sure how many times I can explain that to him, but he always takes criticism personally and I cannot for the life of me understand why. I do not think this is a difficult issue to understand so I have to take it as being willfully ignorant, should I take it as anything else?

Kerdy, to teach that pacifism is the stance of the church is wrong. However, if someone wishes to take this stance personally, there is no issue in my opinion. But when St. Basil wrote canons describing justifiable uses of violence and war, I have an issue with someone saying they teach pacifism. Or taking a quote from St. John Chrysostom speaking on capitol punishment and apply it to pacifism, when St John Chrysostom did not teach that. That is where my issue lies, he is not taking teachings as a whole, just selectively embracing the ones which agree with him and misrepresenting them as being the teaching of the whole church. That is a serious issue.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2013, 03:11:33 AM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:
“Sometimes we just need to remain silent. This is very difficult when lies and false accusations about us are being proliferated by those who are either mentally disturbed or demonically driven. Or maybe they just have some sort of personal grudge against us. But it gets to the point where answering every attack and responding to every false accusation saps one’s energy and drains one’s soul. The truth will always prevail in the end, and our true friends and true brethren will not be swayed by the malicious opinions of those who falsely malign us. Sadly, not everyone who calls us ‘friend’ and ‘brother’ is truly a friend and a brother. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from their negativity and spite, and just let their vitriolic torches burn themselves out. Unfortunately, they may deceive a lot of people along the way, and they may even succeed in damaging our reputation and character. But when this happens, remember that Our Lord Himself was accused of gluttony and drunkenness. (St. Matthew 11:19) God knows our hearts, and when we are accused unjustly, unfairly, and untruthfully, the best response is to simply rest silently and peacefully in Our Lord’s unconditional love.” Selam, +GMK+ (https://www.facebook.com/gebre.menfeskidus?fref=ts)

Again, this is what I am talking about. Anytime any accusation or criticism is leveled against him, he fails to address it, then paints himself as a martyr of some kind. I am not sure exactly why he continues and does not just address why it is that he sees fit to misuse church fathers? And note, its never his fault or anything that he could be responsible for, there is always an excuse. I feel I have been consistent and very clear on the issue, apparently Gebre thinks this is a personal attack. How am I deceiving people in pointing out Gebre's clear misuse of others writings?

I can only hope that at the very least others see that he has been dishonest and entirely unwilling to admit it or at the very least address it. I accused him, but it was just, and fair, and truthful, as can clearly be seen in the OP. I quoted him directly and showed each point where he was incorrect. :(

Where is the untruth in the quote?  I find his words wise.  I don't have Facebook so I cant look at it in detail, but the quote itself has no fault.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2013, 03:12:29 AM »
Well, I thought it would be right and just to give him an opportunity to directly address the letter before making it public.

To ensure I understand, this letter is a correspondence between the two of you?

Like I said, I took every action I could before coming to this decision.

Instead of just accepting he believes the Church teaches to be non-violent?

Admit he was wrong? Not on his stance on pacifism as I had told him repeatedly that this was a non-issue, it was his means of going about proving it, misusing church fathers and thereby misleading people.

In your opinion, yes?

Yes, I would hope that he would say "Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean." Or something along those lines.

Why would he do this if he does not believe what you are saying?


So, no response?

I am unclear if you provided a response to this inquiry so I will say if the two of you were communicating in private, you should not have put any of that here.  I am not certain if it was private or not, but just in case it was.

What is spoken of in the OP is on his facebook and or in his book.

Ok, just making sure so you don't get into any trouble.

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2013, 06:40:04 AM »
There is untruth in the quote because he was saying that he is being accused unfairly and untruthfully. Yet, the OP shows that he was being dishonest, so the accusations are true.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2013, 08:40:32 AM »
I respect Gebre a lot for not responding to this trainwreck of a thread.  If someone decided to post my real name and go on a long diatribe about me while calling me his "friend", you can bet that I would be responding and not in the best of ways.  I find his self-control refreshing.
God bless!

Offline LBK

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2013, 08:44:34 AM »
I respect Gebre a lot for not responding to this trainwreck of a thread.  If someone decided to post my real name and go on a long diatribe about me while calling me his "friend", you can bet that I would be responding and not in the best of ways.  I find his self-control refreshing.

... or he's gone to ground, not daring to admit his error ....
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2013, 08:45:10 AM »
I respect Gebre a lot for not responding to this trainwreck of a thread.  If someone decided to post my real name and go on a long diatribe about me while calling me his "friend", you can bet that I would be responding and not in the best of ways.  I find his self-control refreshing.

He likely does not respond because then he would have to explain why he has continually misquoted the church fathers to support his view. This is generally what Gebre does, he cannot delete this like he does unfavorable comments on his facebook, so he just chooses not to respond because then he would have to face facts. He seems to lack the ability to control what he says, unless he is put on the spot.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2013, 08:51:00 AM »
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)

There was a million ways to more constructively address this issue than this thread, and this is coming from a guy who is intimately acquainted with bad taste as you can see from my parody thread on abortionist whores/horses.
God bless!

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2013, 08:59:06 AM »
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)

There was a million ways to more constructively address this issue than this thread, and this is coming from a guy who is intimately acquainted with bad taste as you can see from my parody thread on abortionist whores/horses.

Once again, this issue had been privately discussed for some length of time a few years maybe. I told Gebre that by misusing quotes he is misleading people and therefore being dishonest. It is unacceptable to portray the church taking a position that it does not take. I informed Gebre that this would happen, he continued to interpret it as a personal attack, as he does most all criticism, and then refused to discuss it anymore. I explained to him that I would post this publicly. I gave him the letter and ample time to respond to it. Again, as I said repeatedly, it is not about his pacifist stance and I explained that to him on numerous occasions, it is the simple fact he is being dishonest and misusing other peoples writings, namely the church fathers as can clearly be seen in the OP. He refused to respond privately therefore I posted it publicly so people would not be misled. He has many people on his facebook and I would not want someone outside Orthodoxy to think that it is a requirement that they be pacifist to be Orthodox. Or that the military and all soldiers are evil, which is NOT the position of the church.

Mind reading? Nah, thankfully, which is why I said "likely" and made that assumption based on his inability to address criticism directed towards him. Which is odd for a guy that criticizes nearly everyone who does not agree with him. The simple fact is he has been dishonest, refused to acknowledge this, to me, clergy, and others and seems to take it as a personal attack against his character. It is an assumption based on my many discussions with him.

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2013, 09:06:16 AM »
God bless!

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #128 on: August 26, 2013, 09:07:24 AM »
I respect Gebre a lot for not responding to this trainwreck of a thread.  If someone decided to post my real name and go on a long diatribe about me while calling me his "friend", you can bet that I would be responding and not in the best of ways.  I find his self-control refreshing.

He likely does not respond because then he would have to explain why he has continually misquoted the church fathers to support his view. This is generally what Gebre does, he cannot delete this like he does unfavorable comments on his facebook, so he just chooses not to respond because then he would have to face facts. He seems to lack the ability to control what he says, unless he is put on the spot.
Or, perhaps he considered you his friend and is not only confused, but hurt by your actions here. 

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #129 on: August 26, 2013, 09:08:47 AM »
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)

There was a million ways to more constructively address this issue than this thread, and this is coming from a guy who is intimately acquainted with bad taste as you can see from my parody thread on abortionist whores/horses.

Once again, this issue had been privately discussed for some length of time a few years maybe. I told Gebre that by misusing quotes he is misleading people and therefore being dishonest. It is unacceptable to portray the church taking a position that it does not take. I informed Gebre that this would happen, he continued to interpret it as a personal attack, as he does most all criticism, and then refused to discuss it anymore. I explained to him that I would post this publicly. I gave him the letter and ample time to respond to it. Again, as I said repeatedly, it is not about his pacifist stance and I explained that to him on numerous occasions, it is the simple fact he is being dishonest and misusing other peoples writings, namely the church fathers as can clearly be seen in the OP. He refused to respond privately therefore I posted it publicly so people would not be misled. He has many people on his facebook and I would not want someone outside Orthodoxy to think that it is a requirement that they be pacifist to be Orthodox. Or that the military and all soldiers are evil, which is NOT the position of the church.

Mind reading? Nah, thankfully, which is why I said "likely" and made that assumption based on his inability to address criticism directed towards him. Which is odd for a guy that criticizes nearly everyone who does not agree with him. The simple fact is he has been dishonest, refused to acknowledge this, to me, clergy, and others and seems to take it as a personal attack against his character. It is an assumption based on my many discussions with him.

If I may ask, if he spoke to his priest first and has maintained dialogue with his priest on this matter, would you then no longer take issue with his views and expressions?

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2013, 09:13:51 AM »
I respect Gebre a lot for not responding to this trainwreck of a thread.  If someone decided to post my real name and go on a long diatribe about me while calling me his "friend", you can bet that I would be responding and not in the best of ways.  I find his self-control refreshing.

He likely does not respond because then he would have to explain why he has continually misquoted the church fathers to support his view. This is generally what Gebre does, he cannot delete this like he does unfavorable comments on his facebook, so he just chooses not to respond because then he would have to face facts. He seems to lack the ability to control what he says, unless he is put on the spot.
Or, perhaps he considered you his friend and is not only confused, but hurt by your actions here. 

I am sure he is. Which is exactly why I gave him ample time to respond privately. If he is confused then there is not much more I can do, I have told him exactly what he has done continually and he ignores it.

LOL the above picture is hilarious, however, I find this issue to be a serious one. Even when you read through his book you can see the exact same thing I am speaking of in the OP. How long should I consult with someone privately and with clergy, and friends before his error is brought public to keep others from being misled? Is it acceptable to allow people do do this? Especially those who teach?

Kerdy, it has nothing to do with his views or expressions, read the OP. His consistent abuse of others writings and misrepresentation of them that is unacceptable no matter what he is trying to prove. You cant say "St Basil teaches pacifism" but then ignore the bulk of his writings, canons even, that clearly state otherwise. That is dishonest.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #131 on: August 26, 2013, 09:14:43 AM »

Perhaps he simply wasn't aware of proper authoring etiquette.



Well, that certainly could be true, I was also mistaken in not seeking approval with my first book. However, I did not tell people that it was in fact approved when it was not. But regardless, this thread was supposed to be addressing the specific issue that I spoke of, not if Gebres book was properly approved or not. If I had time to go through each of the 578 pages and find every error, I would, but I figure this would suffice as this is my major issue that I see with him, and see it consistently in many things he has written.

I am not sure what else I can tell you Liza.

Actually, the fact that his book was approved, and his priests are aware of the writings is tantamount to this thread, and the OP.

It either shows that they do not care, do not find it so bad as to need correcting, or they are lazy and not doing their jobs.  Perhaps they will get a thread all their own in the future.

I can completely understand a public correction when necessary.  I can also totally defend the defense of the Church, her saints, and teachings.

However, how are your latest comments, besmirching his personal character, at all comparative to what you claim the goal of this thread to be....to publicly correct.

You are doing way more than mere correction.  You are actually tarnishing someone's reputation above and beyond what you claim he may, or may not have done to deserve it.

You are passing judgment that he willfully misquoted, that he did not get clergy approval, that he is acting badly, as always, and hiding in order not to confront you and provide you the answers you so desperately seek.

You have done your correction.  People who wish to, will read it.

People who happen upon his misquotes in other sections (which I believe is your impetus for this thread) will still read the misquotes and be none the wiser.

Your goal of this thread, to correct a misquote of the Church Fathers, has morphed.  You are no longer defending the Church Fathers, but, are attacking Gebre, personally.

You would have done well enough, just posting the correction and being done with it.



Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #132 on: August 26, 2013, 09:19:59 AM »
I respect Gebre a lot for not responding to this trainwreck of a thread.  If someone decided to post my real name and go on a long diatribe about me while calling me his "friend", you can bet that I would be responding and not in the best of ways.  I find his self-control refreshing.

He likely does not respond because then he would have to explain why he has continually misquoted the church fathers to support his view. This is generally what Gebre does, he cannot delete this like he does unfavorable comments on his facebook, so he just chooses not to respond because then he would have to face facts. He seems to lack the ability to control what he says, unless he is put on the spot.
Or, perhaps he considered you his friend and is not only confused, but hurt by your actions here. 

I am sure he is. Which is exactly why I gave him ample time to respond privately. If he is confused then there is not much more I can do, I have told him exactly what he has done continually and he ignores it.

LOL the above picture is hilarious, however, I find this issue to be a serious one. Even when you read through his book you can see the exact same thing I am speaking of in the OP. How long should I consult with someone privately and with clergy, and friends before his error is brought public to keep others from being misled? Is it acceptable to allow people do do this? Especially those who teach?

Kerdy, it has nothing to do with his views or expressions, read the OP. His consistent abuse of others writings and misrepresentation of them that is unacceptable no matter what he is trying to prove. You cant say "St Basil teaches pacifism" but then ignore the bulk of his writings, canons even, that clearly state otherwise. That is dishonest.

Ok, here is the bottom line and I am not saying either of you is right or wrong.  So, here is your chance, again, to provide official Orthodox dogma on the matter.  If you can't, then each person is allowed to interpret a persons writings as they see it.  If you cant, he is allowed to teach his understanding of the ECF's in the same manner as you are.  If you cant, between the two of you, if I had to choose who was in the wrong here, it would be you.  If you can, please present it here and I will take back everything I have said about the matter.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #133 on: August 26, 2013, 09:28:37 AM »

Perhaps he simply wasn't aware of proper authoring etiquette.



Well, that certainly could be true, I was also mistaken in not seeking approval with my first book. However, I did not tell people that it was in fact approved when it was not. But regardless, this thread was supposed to be addressing the specific issue that I spoke of, not if Gebres book was properly approved or not. If I had time to go through each of the 578 pages and find every error, I would, but I figure this would suffice as this is my major issue that I see with him, and see it consistently in many things he has written.

I am not sure what else I can tell you Liza.

Actually, the fact that his book was approved, and his priests are aware of the writings is tantamount to this thread, and the OP.

It either shows that they do not care, do not find it so bad as to need correcting, or they are lazy and not doing their jobs.  Perhaps they will get a thread all their own in the future.

I can completely understand a public correction when necessary.  I can also totally defend the defense of the Church, her saints, and teachings.

However, how are your latest comments, besmirching his personal character, at all comparative to what you claim the goal of this thread to be....to publicly correct.

You are doing way more than mere correction.  You are actually tarnishing someone's reputation above and beyond what you claim he may, or may not have done to deserve it.

You are passing judgment that he willfully misquoted, that he did not get clergy approval, that he is acting badly, as always, and hiding in order not to confront you and provide you the answers you so desperately seek.

You have done your correction.  People who wish to, will read it.

People who happen upon his misquotes in other sections (which I believe is your impetus for this thread) will still read the misquotes and be none the wiser.

Your goal of this thread, to correct a misquote of the Church Fathers, has morphed.  You are no longer defending the Church Fathers, but, are attacking Gebre, personally.

You would have done well enough, just posting the correction and being done with it.





What I find disturbing is the need to begin and continue an attack not because the person did not provide an answer, but rather the answer did not meet a personal approval of the one asking.  This in no way means the question(s) was not addressed, only the person asking did not like the answer; therefore, a mindless game of ego and hurt feelings gets started and the bullying begins.  It’s asinine.  If you (Ioannes) disagree, fine, but leave it there.  Maybe he stopped talking about the issue because he explained it as best as he could and you still disagreed, so he was done while you wanted to continue.

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #134 on: August 26, 2013, 09:33:03 AM »

Perhaps he simply wasn't aware of proper authoring etiquette.



Well, that certainly could be true, I was also mistaken in not seeking approval with my first book. However, I did not tell people that it was in fact approved when it was not. But regardless, this thread was supposed to be addressing the specific issue that I spoke of, not if Gebres book was properly approved or not. If I had time to go through each of the 578 pages and find every error, I would, but I figure this would suffice as this is my major issue that I see with him, and see it consistently in many things he has written.

I am not sure what else I can tell you Liza.

Actually, the fact that his book was approved, and his priests are aware of the writings is tantamount to this thread, and the OP.

It either shows that they do not care, do not find it so bad as to need correcting, or they are lazy and not doing their jobs.  Perhaps they will get a thread all their own in the future.

I can completely understand a public correction when necessary.  I can also totally defend the defense of the Church, her saints, and teachings.

However, how are your latest comments, besmirching his personal character, at all comparative to what you claim the goal of this thread to be....to publicly correct.

You are doing way more than mere correction.  You are actually tarnishing someone's reputation above and beyond what you claim he may, or may not have done to deserve it.

You are passing judgment that he willfully misquoted, that he did not get clergy approval, that he is acting badly, as always, and hiding in order not to confront you and provide you the answers you so desperately seek.

You have done your correction.  People who wish to, will read it.

People who happen upon his misquotes in other sections (which I believe is your impetus for this thread) will still read the misquotes and be none the wiser.

Your goal of this thread, to correct a misquote of the Church Fathers, has morphed.  You are no longer defending the Church Fathers, but, are attacking Gebre, personally.

You would have done well enough, just posting the correction and being done with it.





Well, again I am being asked questions and I am trying to answer them and I am making clear with most statements that this is my assumption, however it is based on personal experience with Gebre. You say "The fact that his book is approved" but, you admitted you only know this is fact because Gebre told you. If you read through the book I think you would even begin to question that "fact."
I would have gladly posted this and thats that, however, many people seemed to think I was taking issue with his pacifist stance, and therefore I attempted to make clear what the OP was exactly about. I tried to answer questions, some of which I had no choice but to speculate. But again, these are not personal attacks, Gebre and I know enough about each other that we COULD make this very ugly, but neither of us have done that, and I do not see Gebre ever doing something like that.

The main goal, yes to hopefully correct him, but to keep others from being misled. And Liza, how else should I take it when I and others have explained that he has misquoted church fathers, and he continues to do so? Gebre is an intelligent man and unless that is untrue then I can only assume that he has willfully misquoted the church fathers. Why else would he continue to do so when told, even by members of clergy, that he is doing so and that he has even made up quotes? So, you are saying that I am bismirching him and tarnishing his reputation? I am exposing the things he consistently does, if that is tarnishing his reputation, then it is on him, not me. I did not make him misquote anyone, in fact I and others have tried for a few years to correct this and he has blatantly ignored every one of us. Am I to believe an intelligent man who wrote a 578 page book is completely confused by something as simple as "You are misquoting people and here is why..."? You really mean to tell me that Gebre cannot understand that?

He alone has tarnished himself by not being forthcoming about the priest or bishop who has allegedly approved his book, and if he is part of the schismatic Ethiopian Orthodox church or not, even though he originally told me he was, but later changed his tune.

If by pointing out his inconsistencies and dishonesty is tarnishing his reputation, then maybe he should think about addressing it.

Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.