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Author Topic: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)  (Read 10983 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2013, 09:38:20 PM »

Private messages and phone calls should stay private. Are you trying to shame him into shutting up?

We live in a wicked world. War is hell. It is the smell of burning flesh. It is young men and women turned to pink mist. It is innocent women and children caught in the politics of war and blown into bloody stumps of human flesh. It is the nightmare of the faces of people you have killed that wakes you from sleep and leaves your bed soaked in sweat. It is trying to itch a leg that is missing. It is one minute talking to your best friend about home, and the next second seeing his skull blown apart and the taste of his brains resting on your lips.

I'm no pacifist, but if Gebre's exhuberance to keep war from happening sometimes results in misplaced quotes of Church Fathers, so be it. God bless him for his consistent preaching of life.

It is easy for people to talk about "just" war. It is hard to call any war just when you face the reality of what war is. Even when I disagree with you Gebre, keep preaching.

On a side note, show me a Bishop justifying the jurisdictionalism of American Orthodoxy and I'll show you someone misquoting a Church Father for no other reason than to hold onto power. I'll take Gebre's desire to find peace in our Church Fathers over this any day of the weak.

Error taught in public should be corrected in public. If not for his sake, for the sake of others.
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« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2013, 09:53:56 PM »

Lets he honest here, ask any ten people on this site any question and you'll get eleven different answers.  I have seen some abominably twisted evils proclaimed here which have nothing to do with the source quoted.  So, are we really going to say its ok to get high and have sex with anyone we want, but knock around a guy who promotes peace?  Really?  This place is insane!  If its ok for others to see differences in the EFC's, why not Gebre?  How is he different?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 09:54:44 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2013, 10:14:05 PM »

Lets he honest here, ask any ten people on this site any question and you'll get eleven different answers.  I have seen some abominably twisted evils proclaimed here which have nothing to do with the source quoted.  So, are we really going to say its ok to get high and have sex with anyone we want, but knock around a guy who promotes peace?  Really?  This place is insane!  If its ok for others to see differences in the EFC's, why not Gebre?  How is he different?
+1

Every once in a blue moon, I agree with Kerdy.  This is one of those times.  Mark your calendar.  Grin
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« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2013, 10:27:34 PM »

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.
The point I made about the monks is that people can be very set in their beliefs. In this case the pacifists are very set in their beliefs and if the enemy overwhelmed them, they would probably be willing to stand by those beliefs even then, come what may.

It is not really the army that allows the pacifists to practice their beliefs- even without the army's protection, and even if conquered by the enemy they would still practice the pacifism.

There are plenty of cases throughout history when pacifists were severely persecuted for their beliefs, and much of the persecution came from the militaristic society that is supposedly "protecting" them.

Let's test the claim
that the army is protecting them and allowing them to be pacifist. Suppose that protection is no longer there. What would happen?

A) Societies could get along fine because they would put their efforts into diplomacy and friendship (unlikely, maybe). OR:

B) The enemy could override and conquer them easily. When that happens:
  • The enemy leaves the pacifists alone because the enemy realizes that pacifists are no threat. Gypsies, other nomadic peoples, or Mennonites might live in different countries without fighting in the armies. OR:

  • The enemy completely dislikes the conquered people and persecutes them severely. The pacifists are still willing to undergo that, because they are very dedicated and their dedication is shown by their severe persecution by their own military society. They withstand the persecution from either source and thus their beliefs are not really dependent on their ruler's leniency or protection after all.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 10:32:29 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2013, 10:39:11 PM »

If pacifism is good enough for St. Seraphim of Sarov...
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« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2013, 10:44:34 PM »

Lets he honest here, ask any ten people on this site any question and you'll get eleven different answers.  I have seen some abominably twisted evils proclaimed here which have nothing to do with the source quoted.  So, are we really going to say its ok to get high and have sex with anyone we want, but knock around a guy who promotes peace?  Really?  This place is insane!  If its ok for others to see differences in the EFC's, why not Gebre?  How is he different?
WE are not saying it's okay to get high, and WE are not saying its okay to have sex with anyone we want. Individuals have said both on this forum, but they represent only themselves. They don't represent some nebulous WE.
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« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2013, 10:45:31 PM »

If pacifism is good enough for St. Seraphim of Sarov...
If blessing those who go to war is good enough for St. Sergius of Rhadonezh... Wink
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 10:46:11 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2013, 10:50:35 PM »

I have been in "the fight" in some way all of my life.  I am a born fighter, it’s part of who I have always been, but if Gebre doesn't want to be involved in violence, he has that right and I will support his choice and defend his actions.  

Every man must live with his conscience and follow his path with Jesus.  Gebre feels his path is proper and for him it certainly is and for others who are struggling with certain issues he may be able to provide the information and guidance they need which will make it their path as well.  

I doubt there will ever be a point in my life I would not fight if it was required, but I can say in all honestly I wish I were more like Gebre when those moments arise and to be even more honest, I am a little tired of people talking down to him for his views.  If everyone acted like Gebre, do you not think the world would be a better place?  I do.  So, how about everyone get off his back.


Great post, Kerdy.
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« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2013, 11:02:30 PM »

Lets he honest here, ask any ten people on this site any question and you'll get eleven different answers.  I have seen some abominably twisted evils proclaimed here which have nothing to do with the source quoted.  So, are we really going to say its ok to get high and have sex with anyone we want, but knock around a guy who promotes peace?  Really?  This place is insane!  If its ok for others to see differences in the EFC's, why not Gebre?  How is he different?

+4
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« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2013, 11:33:18 PM »

The original post takes a difference of opinion and makes it way too personal. It made me uncomfortable reading it, especially publishing his legal name when it's obvious Gebre uses his church name here and on Facebook, etc. out of sincere faith. The author just came across as demeaning and very, very, very, petty and mean spirited.

I don't agree with some of Gerbre's opinions here and on Facebook , but good lord, he is sincere, willing to engage in debates on what can be very hard subjects to talk about, and whether you agree with him or not, he consistently stands up for life.

My first reaction when I read the post, "with friends like these, who needs enemies."

Sorry you feel this way, but I do not find misquoting church fathers, taking them out of context, and teaching others that the churchs stance is pacifist, to be a petty thing whatsoever. I have to disagree, Gebre is anything but willing to engage, any dissenting opinion on his facebook and he deletes the comments. I must reiterate, I do not take issue with Gebres personal position on pacifism, I have a problem when he teaches, as some authority on the matter, that the church takes this stance. I apologize for not being more clear in the original post.
I agree with what you're trying to accomplish on this thread, Ioannes (though I do believe it was very bad form for you to reveal Gebre's legal name), for I have run into the same stubborn dogmatism time and time again with Gebre.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 11:45:56 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2013, 11:47:38 PM »

You guys really get bent out of shape on Gebre's one note pacifism. Sure he doesn't see all the nuances with violence nor the inherent contradictions with pacificsm, but I respect how well he argues his views.

Me personally I am much too open minded and consider a wide variety of opposing beliefs. I don't necessarily think that it is a good thing. If something gives me pause and makes me think, then its done its job for me.

I couldn't imagine living in a world where you don't read stuff that doesn't cause abrasion to some degree, would be boring.

I'm sure that Punch could probably give more details, but the OP is wrong on one account. If someone is threatening you or your family with deadly force, you kill them. Pussyfooting around will only cost you your life and the life of your loved ones.
Or you could just pull the marry card out if your family is going to be killed.

Would Gebre allow a racist to come into his house and rape his wife while he does nothing?

A lot of the pacifism stuff is nice in theory, but that stuff doesn't matter in the spur of the moment when your are reacting more on instinct than thought.
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« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2013, 11:47:38 PM »

Ioannes, what were you hoping to accomplish here?  Whatever it was, you fell for the devil's trick.  Lord have mercy. 
Yup.
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« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2013, 11:47:38 PM »

Error taught in public should be corrected in public. If not for his sake, for the sake of others.

You hardly even post and apparently have a personal grudge against Gebre. Not only that, but this is nothing more than an exhibition in audacious false piety.

Cue the shameless members to inject some value into this thread but this thread has zero.
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« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2013, 11:48:48 PM »

Error taught in public should be corrected in public. If not for his sake, for the sake of others.

You hardly even post and apparently have a personal grudge against Gebre. Not only that, but this is nothing more than an exhibition in audacious false piety.
What do you know of personal grudges and false piety, Achronos?
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« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2013, 11:54:58 PM »

Lets he honest here, ask any ten people on this site any question and you'll get eleven different answers.  I have seen some abominably twisted evils proclaimed here which have nothing to do with the source quoted.  So, are we really going to say its ok to get high and have sex with anyone we want, but knock around a guy who promotes peace?  Really?  This place is insane!  If its ok for others to see differences in the EFC's, why not Gebre?  How is he different?
+1

Every once in a blue moon, I agree with Kerdy.  This is one of those times.  Mark your calendar.  Grin
The blue moon was a few days ago. You missed it, buddy. Wink
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« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2013, 11:59:03 PM »

Ioannes, what were you hoping to accomplish here?  Whatever it was, you fell for the devil's trick.  Lord have mercy. 
Yup.

LOL, look who you quoted.  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2013, 02:31:39 AM »

George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."
I can understand where he is coming from, and others share this belief about pacifists, but this is not the case. Monks for example are not supposed to fight in wars, even if it would be needed to protect them. Monks and some pacifists are so convinced in their beliefs that they are willing to go to jail or otherwise suffer for them- and sometimes they do, not regretting it.

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.
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« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2013, 02:39:09 AM »

George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."
I can understand where he is coming from, and others share this belief about pacifists, but this is not the case. Monks for example are not supposed to fight in wars, even if it would be needed to protect them. Monks and some pacifists are so convinced in their beliefs that they are willing to go to jail or otherwise suffer for them- and sometimes they do, not regretting it.

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.
It's also possible for one to argue that Christianity didn't remain stuck in the third century.
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« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2013, 02:56:48 AM »

George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."
I can understand where he is coming from, and others share this belief about pacifists, but this is not the case. Monks for example are not supposed to fight in wars, even if it would be needed to protect them. Monks and some pacifists are so convinced in their beliefs that they are willing to go to jail or otherwise suffer for them- and sometimes they do, not regretting it.

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.

It is very possible, even probable.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 02:57:08 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2013, 04:36:28 AM »


So, just a few questions.

Is Gebre a priest?  Is he a hierarch?  Perhaps a patriarch?

No. No. No.

Then, please explain to me why anyone would think his words represent the stance of the Church? 

What he states, is his own opinion and interpretation...even his interpretations of the Church Fathers.
Nobody should take, as Gospel truth, something a mere layperson states without doing some of their own research, and asking for more information.

This Forum overflows with personal opinions and beliefs. That's why we are here. To discuss and interpolate...and learn from each other.

As for pacifism. I don't know if the Church makes a formal stance on this, or if it is case specific, and economia comes in to play.

I would love to say that I would never maim or injure someone; but, I know I've probably already done both in a spiritual sense....which is just as bad.

I would always look for the peaceful route first, but, I know that I would resort to violence to protect someone I love.  We all would. We are just fooling ourselves if we think we wouldn't. If someone were trying to harm our families or loved ones, or some innocent child or old person, wouldn't we simply "act" and come to their defense?  I fear that if we do not, then we are cowards, and don't deserve to call ourselves Christians.



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« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2013, 09:34:26 AM »

Ioannes, what were you hoping to accomplish here?  Whatever it was, you fell for the devil's trick.  Lord have mercy. 

Actually not.  Granted, from some of the posts that I have read on this forum, I doubt many people on this forum even know what a Bible is, let alone have ever read one.  But the OP is doing exactly what the Scriptures tell us to do.  First, deal with the individual privately.  If no success, then bring others with you.  If that does not work, then bring it before the Church.  If the OP is in error, the error would be to assume that this forum in any way represents the Church, since open heretics are allowed the same freedom to post here as Orthodox Christians. 
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« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2013, 09:39:30 AM »

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.
The point I made about the monks is that people can be very set in their beliefs. In this case the pacifists are very set in their beliefs and if the enemy overwhelmed them, they would probably be willing to stand by those beliefs even then, come what may.

It is not really the army that allows the pacifists to practice their beliefs- even without the army's protection, and even if conquered by the enemy they would still practice the pacifism.

There are plenty of cases throughout history when pacifists were severely persecuted for their beliefs, and much of the persecution came from the militaristic society that is supposedly "protecting" them.

Let's test the claim
that the army is protecting them and allowing them to be pacifist. Suppose that protection is no longer there. What would happen?

A) Societies could get along fine because they would put their efforts into diplomacy and friendship (unlikely, maybe). OR:

B) The enemy could override and conquer them easily. When that happens:
  • The enemy leaves the pacifists alone because the enemy realizes that pacifists are no threat. Gypsies, other nomadic peoples, or Mennonites might live in different countries without fighting in the armies. OR:

  • The enemy completely dislikes the conquered people and persecutes them severely. The pacifists are still willing to undergo that, because they are very dedicated and their dedication is shown by their severe persecution by their own military society. They withstand the persecution from either source and thus their beliefs are not really dependent on their ruler's leniency or protection after all.

So, instead of being a light on the top of a hill as the Scriptures command, they can worship in Caves and hide.  Yes, it has been done before, and still happens.  But it is not the norm nor is it to be sought.  As was said above, we are no longer in the third century.
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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2013, 10:19:41 AM »

Ioannes, what were you hoping to accomplish here?  Whatever it was, you fell for the devil's trick.  Lord have mercy. 
Yup.

LOL, look who you quoted.  Wink
Who?
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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2013, 10:19:41 AM »

Not marry, marytr
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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2013, 10:33:31 AM »


So, just a few questions.

Is Gebre a priest?  Is he a hierarch?  Perhaps a patriarch?

No. No. No.

Then, please explain to me why anyone would think his words represent the stance of the Church?
Is the task of preaching and teaching the Faith solely the domain of priests, bishops, and patriarchs?

No! We are all, from the Patriarch all the way down to the laity in the nave, called to preach and teach the faith of the Church.

When someone claims to be doing so but cherry picks from the Scriptures and Fathers to preach what is really his own concoction, then we have the responsibility to call him on his BS. It doesn't matter who he is or what churchly office he holds or does not hold. It's very probable that Gebre will be the only contact some people ever have with the Orthodox Church, so we do have a vested interest in making sure he is teaching the Faith properly.

What he states, is his own opinion and interpretation...even his interpretations of the Church Fathers.
Nobody should take, as Gospel truth, something a mere layperson states without doing some of their own research, and asking for more information.
No one should be so credulous even about something stated by a Patriarch.

This Forum overflows with personal opinions and beliefs. That's why we are here. To discuss and interpolate...and learn from each other.
Then let the dogmatic own up to the fact that he's merely sharing his own opinions.
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« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2013, 06:08:16 PM »

George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."
I can understand where he is coming from, and others share this belief about pacifists, but this is not the case. Monks for example are not supposed to fight in wars, even if it would be needed to protect them. Monks and some pacifists are so convinced in their beliefs that they are willing to go to jail or otherwise suffer for them- and sometimes they do, not regretting it.

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.
It's also possible for one to argue that Christianity didn't remain stuck in the third century.
Kinda have to agree with this.
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« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2013, 06:08:16 PM »

Error taught in public should be corrected in public. If not for his sake, for the sake of others.

You hardly even post and apparently have a personal grudge against Gebre. Not only that, but this is nothing more than an exhibition in audacious false piety.
What do you know of personal grudges and false piety, Achronos?
That I don't hold any grudges.
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« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2013, 06:42:05 PM »

Apparently on oc.net, we can debate and agree to disagree on gay marriage, contraception, and a number of other controversial topics, but when the evils of pacifism are advocated, it must be countered by attempts at public shaming and personal attacks.
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« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2013, 07:13:45 PM »

Apparently on oc.net, we can debate and agree to disagree on gay marriage, contraception, and a number of other controversial topics, but when the evils of pacifism are advocated, it must be countered by attempts at public shaming and personal attacks.
If that's what was really going on...
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« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2013, 07:21:19 PM »

Apparently on oc.net, we can debate and agree to disagree on gay marriage, contraception, and a number of other controversial topics, but when the evils of pacifism are advocated, it must be countered by attempts at public shaming and personal attacks.

No, attempts at public shaming, personal attacks, (mis)use of sarcasm, etc. all occur when it comes to the topics you mentioned.  It's not just an allergy to pacifism. 
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« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2013, 08:39:39 PM »

Apparently on oc.net, we can debate and agree to disagree on gay marriage, contraception, and a number of other controversial topics, but when the evils of pacifism are advocated, it must be countered by attempts at public shaming and personal attacks.

This will be the last time that I will try to clarify my OP. I am not attacking Gebres stance on pacifism, I am pointing out his errors in misusing church fathers, and contemporary sources, to prove his point. I have discussed this particular issue with him, and some others, over the past couple of years. I have spoken to him privately on many occasions, as have others, that he cannot misuse anyone, especially church fathers. This is misleading and very dishonest. It would not matter what topic it was, if he or anyone is misusing church fathers to try and justify their stance, they are wrong. Again, I thought I made clear that pacifism itself is not the issue.
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« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2013, 09:11:40 PM »

George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."
I can understand where he is coming from, and others share this belief about pacifists, but this is not the case. Monks for example are not supposed to fight in wars, even if it would be needed to protect them. Monks and some pacifists are so convinced in their beliefs that they are willing to go to jail or otherwise suffer for them- and sometimes they do, not regretting it.

You miss the point completely.  Monks did not have to fight because Christian Czars kept armies of Orthodox soldiers who did the killing for them.  And rather than scold those soldiers, they prayed for them.  One even gave them his cloak so they could be victorious over their enemies.

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.
It's also possible for one to argue that Christianity didn't remain stuck in the third century.
Kinda have to agree with this.

Sure, but it seems to me a dislocated statement. I am not sure how it relates to my tit for tat. You can perhaps explain.

My post was based on my currently reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. I think there is some element of truth in what I read. Until I reached Julian, Gibbon was putting me to sleep.
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« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2013, 09:25:08 PM »

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.
It's also possible for one to argue that Christianity didn't remain stuck in the third century.
Kinda have to agree with this.
You don't have to argue with it. Orthodoxy sees itself as the ancient faith. Although things change with the times, and we are not completely stuck in the 3rd century (like giving up TV or something), important aspects of the church really are. We value beliefs and traditions of the third century and wish to continue them ourselves. Holding fast to important traditions from the third century is one of the things that makes us Orthodox.

If pacifism really was an important religious part of the 3rd century Church, then it is something that we as Orthodox would have respect for (although not necessarily be bound by it 100%)
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« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2013, 11:38:12 PM »

It is possible for one to argue that the rise and acceptance of Christianity rested on the shoulders of Christ-like pacifism during the first three centuries.
It's also possible for one to argue that Christianity didn't remain stuck in the third century.
Kinda have to agree with this.
You don't have to argue with it. Orthodoxy sees itself as the ancient faith. Although things change with the times, and we are not completely stuck in the 3rd century (like giving up TV or something), important aspects of the church really are. We value beliefs and traditions of the third century and wish to continue them ourselves. Holding fast to important traditions from the third century is one of the things that makes us Orthodox.

If pacifism really was an important religious part of the 3rd century Church, then it is something that we as Orthodox would have respect for (although not necessarily be bound by it 100%)
That's the key. This thread wasn't started as a condemnation of pacifism. Pacifism really isn't the issue at all. What is at issue is how far one person is willing to go to make his personal opinion into a dogma of the Church.
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« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2013, 11:57:04 PM »


I would think that if a poster posts an inaccuracy concerning Church teaching, he ought to be immediately corrected in that same post.  In that way, readers who are exposed to the misinformation, are also immediately exposed to the correction.

However, accumulating one's sins, and creating a special thread to correct them, seems wrong.

I understand the whole correct a public error, in public, but, doing it like this does nothing to correct the posts where the misinformation was posted. 

Correct the mistake when it is made. Don't keep track of a list and then publish it later, and reveal your friend's real identity while you do it.



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« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2013, 12:05:00 AM »

^And fwiw, I can remember at least one very involved thread in which there was a discussion on this back and forth, with Gebre as a central participant, for page upon page. I'd try to dig up the thread I am thinking of, except that I gave up access to the politics forum.
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« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2013, 12:06:48 AM »


I would think that if a poster posts an inaccuracy concerning Church teaching, he ought to be immediately corrected in that same post.  In that way, readers who are exposed to the misinformation, are also immediately exposed to the correction.

However, accumulating one's sins, and creating a special thread to correct them, seems wrong.

I understand the whole correct a public error, in public, but, doing it like this does nothing to correct the posts where the misinformation was posted. 

Correct the mistake when it is made. Don't keep track of a list and then publish it later, and reveal your friend's real identity while you do it.





If that particular person refuses to listen over a long period of time, then what are we to do? Not inform people of some of the errors he has taught? That would be unfair to those who follow him and read his book, would it not? His identity is on his facebook writings (notes) as well as in his book. I had no idea he intended on keeping it secret and if that is the case then I do apologize. My intent is not malicious but informative, it is not to debate his personal stance, it is to demonstrate his error that he is well aware of. Several have spoken to him in private on many occasions. These particular remarks were made in discussions that took place elsewhere. I can assure you, this is my last resort, I have told him that this would happen too. I sent it to him in an email giving him ample time to respond, either by phone or email, or whichever way he decided.
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« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2013, 12:13:02 AM »


What kind of a response from him were you waiting for?

Did you wish him to admit he was wrong, in which case this thread would never have been created?
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« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2013, 12:15:44 AM »

At a Protestant forum (theologyonline.com) I participated at long ago they had scheduled, monthly debates. Perhaps that doesn't fit the tone of this site, but it'd be perhaps a useful thing once in a while, and even interesting...
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« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2013, 12:24:49 AM »

Monthly?!?  Aren't we debating here daily?

It's not enough?  Wink
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« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2013, 12:25:21 AM »

Apparently on oc.net, we can debate and agree to disagree on gay marriage, contraception, and a number of other controversial topics, but when the evils of pacifism are advocated, it must be countered by attempts at public shaming and personal attacks.

This will be the last time that I will try to clarify my OP. I am not attacking Gebres stance on pacifism, I am pointing out his errors in misusing church fathers, and contemporary sources, to prove his point. I have discussed this particular issue with him, and some others, over the past couple of years. I have spoken to him privately on many occasions, as have others, that he cannot misuse anyone, especially church fathers. This is misleading and very dishonest. It would not matter what topic it was, if he or anyone is misusing church fathers to try and justify their stance, they are wrong. Again, I thought I made clear that pacifism itself is not the issue.

The only time I have a problem with pacifists is when they join the military or some other organization which organically requires the use of force at times, like law enforcement.  If they knew they couldn’t use violence, why join that organization.  I personally have a problem with them when they refuse to aid someone in dire need of assistance and that person ends up dead…or worse.  However, they must make the choices they make and if someone understands the ECF’s to teach a life without violence, then that is the way they see it and who are we to try and change their minds?  People see things differently and many times in direct conflict with Church teaching, but we make excuses and pacify (pun intended) them in their heretical views.  

Gebre doesn’t like violence, he sees the Church teaching peace and therefore he understands Church views as non-violent.  If he lives his life this way and isn’t a flip-flopper like some people are on their unstable faith, I take no issue.  

Why not simply try to understand his point of view rather than fight against it?  We have people here accepting all sorts of serious wrongs.  This is not the fight (pun intended again) to take up on OC.net.

What he does is in no way any different than what you are doing right now, in this thread, against a pacifistic view.

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« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2013, 12:28:55 AM »


What kind of a response from him were you waiting for?

Did you wish him to admit he was wrong, in which case this thread would never have been created?


Well, I thought it would be right and just to give him an opportunity to directly address the letter before making it public. Like I said, I took every action I could before coming to this decision. Admit he was wrong? Not on his stance on pacifism as I had told him repeatedly that this was a non-issue, it was his means of going about proving it, misusing church fathers and thereby misleading people. Yes, I would hope that he would say "Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean." Or something along those lines.
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« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2013, 12:33:49 AM »


You are both doing what you think is right.

I respect you both for being so adamant and loving your Church so much, as to actually take a stance one way or the other.

I do not agree with misrepresenting Church teachings, however, I also do not agree with ganging up on someone.

If he's done something wrong, why does his priest not intercede? 
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« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2013, 12:36:58 AM »

Monthly?!?  Aren't we debating here daily?

It's not enough?  Wink

 Cheesy  Well these debates were under strict rules, which the mods controlled/regulated. Each side had a specific number of responses, who went first/last was predetermined, there were word limits (I think), you had time limits when you had to respond by, etc. And most importantly, it was just the two people involved; no outside intereference and muddying the water or diverting attention, or people going off topic. And since the people involved knew that they had limited time and space (=words) to make their case, they really worked on their arguments, and picked out what they considered the best evidence. They also had to carefully consider what the other side was saying, otherwise (in a separate discussion thread) they'd be torn apart for being unwilling or unable to engage with their opponent. I'm not sure if anything ever got resolved, but it did make for somewhat more structured and evidence-based back and forths.
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« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2013, 12:40:52 AM »

Well, I thought it would be right and just to give him an opportunity to directly address the letter before making it public.

To ensure I understand, this letter is a correspondence between the two of you?

Like I said, I took every action I could before coming to this decision.

Instead of just accepting he believes the Church teaches to be non-violent?

Admit he was wrong? Not on his stance on pacifism as I had told him repeatedly that this was a non-issue, it was his means of going about proving it, misusing church fathers and thereby misleading people.

In your opinion, yes?

Yes, I would hope that he would say "Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean." Or something along those lines.

Why would he do this if he does not believe what you are saying?
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