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Author Topic: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)  (Read 11010 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #315 on: August 29, 2013, 09:19:46 AM »

Quote
Icons without stars neither.


The denial of the dogma of the ever-virginity of the Mother of God is a declared heresy. Omitting the stars since the ecumenical council which declared her ever-virginity as dogma is, in effect, denying her ever-virginity.


The denial of that Christ is God is a declared heresy.  Wearing shoes during the Divine Liturgy is, in effect, denying the divinity of Christ.  God told Moses to remove his sandals because he was on holy ground, being in the presence of God.  If the Mysteries are truly the body and blood of Christ, and yet we keep our shoes on in it's presence, we are denying the divinity of Christ.

Coptics, here I come!  Grin

I have often wondered about the whole shoe thing.

I can only imagine that feet stink, and it would be more of a respect not to "air" them before God.

Plus, a vast number of faithful live in freezing climates.  If our noses, which are a few feet up from the ground, freeze while in church, imagine what bare feet on the cold floor would do.


HERETIC!

We should be annointing one another's feet with oil and cleaning them with our hair and tears in rememberance of the woman who came in penitence to Christ.  Do you now deny the necessity of repentance!?!

Cold feet is just part of the ascetical practice.  Do you now deny ascetical worship as well? You might as well go join Joel Osteen.

 Tongue

TheTrisagion, are you channeling 88Devin12?  laugh
ME?  angel

I would never use satire to give anyone a tweak.  I'm a very serious minded individual.  Everyone knows that.  laugh
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« Reply #316 on: August 29, 2013, 09:26:12 AM »

I can only imagine that feet stink, and it would be more of a respect not to "air" them before God.

But do feet stink naturally, or only because we keep them covered with socks and shoes most of the time?  I am from a tradition where we never wear shoes inside the nave, and I haven't noticed any smell of stinking feet.  

One point of which shoe-wearers are not often cognizant is where their shoes have been before they enter the nave.  People step in mud, dirty water, animal feces, roads covered with oil from automobiles, etc.  And then, they come to church wearing those shoes.  They approach the chalice wearing those shoes.  If they are the priest or the bishop, they stand at the holy altar with those shoes.  I understand that shoe-wearers don't think of those things when they put their shoes on, but frankly I am scandalised every time I see it.  


As I said...I have often wondered about this.

We normally take our shoes off when we step in our homes, because we don't want to spread not only the mud and dirt, but, who-knows-what, onto our carpets and in to our rooms.

I know that you take of your shoes, as do the Muslims, Hindus, etc.

....and I always remember God's instructions to Moses.

I can only assume that we wear shoes out of Economia, due to most of us living in cold climates.
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« Reply #317 on: August 29, 2013, 09:27:48 AM »

What on earth are you talking about?  Huh

Something like that for example: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47878.msg977540.html#msg977540

Quote
You've been reading my posts with your eyes firmly shut, then. Obviously my use of scripture, hymnography, conciliar rulings, history and patristic writings to support what I write isn't good enough for you.  Roll Eyes

Where do you do that? Show me a couple of examples.

Quote
The denial of the dogma of the ever-virginity of the Mother of God is a declared heresy. Omitting the stars since the time of the ecumenical council which declared her ever-virginity as dogma is, in effect, denying her ever-virginity.

Says anonymous woman on the Internet. Not buying it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:28:03 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #318 on: August 29, 2013, 09:29:57 AM »

I can only imagine that feet stink, and it would be more of a respect not to "air" them before God.

But do feet stink naturally, or only because we keep them covered with socks and shoes most of the time?  I am from a tradition where we never wear shoes inside the nave, and I haven't noticed any smell of stinking feet.  

One point of which shoe-wearers are not often cognizant is where their shoes have been before they enter the nave.  People step in mud, dirty water, animal feces, roads covered with oil from automobiles, etc.  And then, they come to church wearing those shoes.  They approach the chalice wearing those shoes.  If they are the priest or the bishop, they stand at the holy altar with those shoes.  I understand that shoe-wearers don't think of those things when they put their shoes on, but frankly I am scandalised every time I see it.  


As I said...I have often wondered about this.

We normally take our shoes off when we step in our homes, because we don't want to spread not only the mud and dirt, but, who-knows-what, onto our carpets and in to our rooms.

I know that you take of your shoes, as do the Muslims, Hindus, etc.

....and I always remember God's instructions to Moses.

I can only assume that we wear shoes out of Economia, due to most of us living in cold climates.

There can be no economia when it comes to heresy.  Angry

 Kiss
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« Reply #319 on: August 29, 2013, 09:32:42 AM »

Quote
Icons without stars neither.


The denial of the dogma of the ever-virginity of the Mother of God is a declared heresy. Omitting the stars since the ecumenical council which declared her ever-virginity as dogma is, in effect, denying her ever-virginity.


The denial of that Christ is God is a declared heresy.  Wearing shoes during the Divine Liturgy is, in effect, denying the divinity of Christ.  God told Moses to remove his sandals because he was on holy ground, being in the presence of God.  If the Mysteries are truly the body and blood of Christ, and yet we keep our shoes on in it's presence, we are denying the divinity of Christ.

Coptics, here I come!  Grin

I have often wondered about the whole shoe thing.

I can only imagine that feet stink, and it would be more of a respect not to "air" them before God.

Plus, a vast number of faithful live in freezing climates.  If our noses, which are a few feet up from the ground, freeze while in church, imagine what bare feet on the cold floor would do.



There is a theological solution to this problem:

http://youtu.be/msQJyUfOTp0

Odor eaters!
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« Reply #320 on: August 29, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »

Quote

Why does the Mother of God always point to her Son in icons, Michal? Why do martyr-saints point to the cross they are holding, or to a motif of Christ, or to Christ Himself in a supplicatory series? I have given the answer many a time on this forum. If you had paid attention to the answer, you would know why a saint pointing to an angel plowing his field is wrong.

Quote
Where do you do that? Show me a couple of examples.

Go back and read the Schlock Icons thread yourself. And any other thread on iconography I've contributed to, such as those on St Joseph the Betrothed, and, most recently, the Icons and the Old Testament thread.

I've done my homework, don't expect me to do yours.

Quote
Says anonymous woman on the Internet. Not buying it.

Who are you, again? Why should what you say matter, if what I say is worthless?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:58:00 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #321 on: August 29, 2013, 11:56:18 AM »

Mike, this thread is about Gebre Menfes Kidus and his message. Please do not distract this thread from its intended purpose by launching one of your aggressive criticisms of LBK. If that's what you want to do, then take your campaign against LBK to another thread.
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« Reply #322 on: August 29, 2013, 12:37:58 PM »

I guess this will stir up the pot a bit. Here is an example of how Gebre views himself, or at least viewed himself at one time, this site http://dingelmariam.01.free.bm/ was set up by Gebre Tsadik, who is his FB friend and whom he thanks in his book as "Abba Gebre Tsadik" a man, who I am told is a self appointed "priest" who mixes rastafarianism with Orthodoxy, this is what I have been told, I cannot substantiate these claims, although he has another site which looks the same but the church is allegedly based in L.A. and they meet in a Jamaican lounge.

I questioned Gebre about this before he removed and blocked me from facebook and severed all ties with me and he explained that this was set up a long time ago and was unaware that he was referred to as a "religious leader" on the site. I am thinking how long ago could this possibly have been? Gebre has been baptized for no more than 4 years or so. At what point was he appointed as a religious leader? Now, he said he was aware of the website and had seen it, but then denied knowing that he was referred to as a religious leader on it.
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« Reply #323 on: August 29, 2013, 12:41:02 PM »


How do you know the GEBRE MENFES KIDUS listed there, is our Gebre?
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« Reply #324 on: August 29, 2013, 12:45:46 PM »


How do you know the GEBRE MENFES KIDUS listed there, is our Gebre?


Same way you KNOW his book was authorized...I asked him.
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« Reply #325 on: August 29, 2013, 12:49:10 PM »


So, you asked him, if GEBRE MENFES KIDUS was him....and he said yes, but, neglected to read the phrase, "religious leader" that was associated with his name.

Is that what you are saying?

Also, per your argument....that Gebre has only been baptized Orthodox for no more than 4 years, stipulates that the label given him on that website, precedes his baptism.  Right?

If so, why are you punishing him for something that he was guilty of, prior to his conversion?

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« Reply #326 on: August 29, 2013, 01:00:15 PM »


So, you asked him, if GEBRE MENFES KIDUS was him....and he said yes, but, neglected to read the phrase, "religious leader" that was associated with his name.

Is that what you are saying?

Also, per your argument....that Gebre has only been baptized Orthodox for no more than 4 years, stipulates that the label given him on that website, precedes his baptism.  Right?

If so, why are you punishing him for something that he was guilty of, prior to his conversion?



You have to ask Gebre about this if you want to know more, asking me about what Gebre knows are does not know is only setting me up because I cannot know what Gebre thinks or knows concerning this, therefore I must assume based upon what I have to go on. So, instead of setting me up so you or others can accuse me of maligning his character, go ask him. I am merely presenting this to show some evidence to my assumption on why I think he has been dishonest, and he clearly has been. I have no idea when the site was made, or why, or even who made it. I am telling you what Gebre said to me concerning this. But, if he was considered a religious leader by someone, then this could explain the way he speaks and acts. Thinking he can quote fathers he knows nothing about, thereby misrepresenting their teachings as a sort of end justifies the means. Again, this is my assumption on the connection to this website and pseudo-church, ask him.
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« Reply #327 on: August 29, 2013, 01:12:35 PM »


So, you asked him, if GEBRE MENFES KIDUS was him....and he said yes, but, neglected to read the phrase, "religious leader" that was associated with his name.

Is that what you are saying?

Also, per your argument....that Gebre has only been baptized Orthodox for no more than 4 years, stipulates that the label given him on that website, precedes his baptism.  Right?

If so, why are you punishing him for something that he was guilty of, prior to his conversion?



You have to ask Gebre about this if you want to know more, asking me about what Gebre knows are does not know is only setting me up because I cannot know what Gebre thinks or knows concerning this, therefore I must assume based upon what I have to go on. So, instead of setting me up so you or others can accuse me of maligning his character, go ask him. I am merely presenting this to show some evidence to my assumption on why I think he has been dishonest, and he clearly has been. I have no idea when the site was made, or why, or even who made it. I am telling you what Gebre said to me concerning this. But, if he was considered a religious leader by someone, then this could explain the way he speaks and acts. Thinking he can quote fathers he knows nothing about, thereby misrepresenting their teachings as a sort of end justifies the means. Again, this is my assumption on the connection to this website and pseudo-church, ask him.

You looked it up, your brought it in to this conversation, and now you wish to appear innocent and direct us to go ask Gebre, lest we "set you up" as maligning his character.

Without asking him, let me speculate....the site has not had any updates since 2006.  This means it's not been updated for at least 6 years.  Per your own words, Gebre has only been Orthodox for four years.

Thereby, using your logic, the information entered predates his baptism.  Even if he was considered a "religious leader", that also predates his baptism.

I'm not saying that Gebre is correct in having misquoted the Church Fathers.  If he has done so intentionally to suit his personal agenda, that is between him, his priest and God.  His priest is aware of his writings.  If he wishes to correct him, he should do so.

Many people on this Forum and in the outside real world will misquote others.  It is the recipients duty to verify what they believe.   Why anyone would consider Gebre's words as doctrine is beyond me.  He is clearly a layperson, and never claimed otherwise...not in his books, nor on this Forum, nor on FB, etc.

You've made your public correction of his sins....now why must you keep trying to dig up additional dirt on him?

You've done your Christian duty....don't become Pharisaical in your judgment and actions towards him.
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« Reply #328 on: August 29, 2013, 01:19:54 PM »

Mike, this thread is about Gebre Menfes Kidus and his message. Please do not distract this thread from its intended purpose by launching one of your aggressive criticisms of LBK. If that's what you want to do, then take your campaign against LBK to another thread.

 Thank you, Pta.  I'm glad another mod had the courage to say this.
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« Reply #329 on: August 29, 2013, 01:48:20 PM »


So, you asked him, if GEBRE MENFES KIDUS was him....and he said yes, but, neglected to read the phrase, "religious leader" that was associated with his name.

Is that what you are saying?

Also, per your argument....that Gebre has only been baptized Orthodox for no more than 4 years, stipulates that the label given him on that website, precedes his baptism.  Right?

If so, why are you punishing him for something that he was guilty of, prior to his conversion?



You have to ask Gebre about this if you want to know more, asking me about what Gebre knows are does not know is only setting me up because I cannot know what Gebre thinks or knows concerning this, therefore I must assume based upon what I have to go on. So, instead of setting me up so you or others can accuse me of maligning his character, go ask him. I am merely presenting this to show some evidence to my assumption on why I think he has been dishonest, and he clearly has been. I have no idea when the site was made, or why, or even who made it. I am telling you what Gebre said to me concerning this. But, if he was considered a religious leader by someone, then this could explain the way he speaks and acts. Thinking he can quote fathers he knows nothing about, thereby misrepresenting their teachings as a sort of end justifies the means. Again, this is my assumption on the connection to this website and pseudo-church, ask him.

You looked it up, your brought it in to this conversation, and now you wish to appear innocent and direct us to go ask Gebre, lest we "set you up" as maligning his character.

Without asking him, let me speculate....the site has not had any updates since 2006.  This means it's not been updated for at least 6 years.  Per your own words, Gebre has only been Orthodox for four years.

Thereby, using your logic, the information entered predates his baptism.  Even if he was considered a "religious leader", that also predates his baptism.

I'm not saying that Gebre is correct in having misquoted the Church Fathers.  If he has done so intentionally to suit his personal agenda, that is between him, his priest and God.  His priest is aware of his writings.  If he wishes to correct him, he should do so.

Many people on this Forum and in the outside real world will misquote others.  It is the recipients duty to verify what they believe.   Why anyone would consider Gebre's words as doctrine is beyond me.  He is clearly a layperson, and never claimed otherwise...not in his books, nor on this Forum, nor on FB, etc.

You've made your public correction of his sins....now why must you keep trying to dig up additional dirt on him?

You've done your Christian duty....don't become Pharisaical in your judgment and actions towards him.


Look, I made it clear what the intention of showing that site was. If it predates his baptism then so be it.

Imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on his book and or his FB page, blog, etc. If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused or think he IS some sort of authority or religious leader. The way he present himself and his arguments would suggest to those who dont know better that he has some authority with which to teach. Now, imagine someone from the military reads his anti-military comments or the poem he wrote against soldiers.

I am not out to dig up dirt, but for a man who lacks tact and publicly denounces people on a consistent basis, why is it wrong for me to point out the error of his teachings? Why can he openly insult people for being part of "babylon system" and I, after numerous attempts at correcting him, am "digging up dirt" on him?

A fool seeks reassurance while the wise seek out criticism...
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« Reply #330 on: August 29, 2013, 01:49:56 PM »

Also, Lyza, you are asking me Gebres intentions and what he knows, that is why I directed you to him, ask him. Me answering for him or what I think is not going to give you an answer as I cannot possibly know his intentions or what he is thinking, I can only assume. If you want to know, go ask him.
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« Reply #331 on: August 29, 2013, 01:53:29 PM »

Also, Lyza, you are asking me Gebres intentions and what he knows, that is why I directed you to him, ask him. Me answering for him or what I think is not going to give you an answer as I cannot possibly know his intentions or what he is thinking, I can only assume. If you want to know, go ask him.
Yet you seem to know that his intentions are to misuse patristic quotations to fit his belief in pacifism.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #332 on: August 29, 2013, 02:00:42 PM »

Also, Lyza, you are asking me Gebres intentions and what he knows, that is why I directed you to him, ask him. Me answering for him or what I think is not going to give you an answer as I cannot possibly know his intentions or what he is thinking, I can only assume. If you want to know, go ask him.
Yet you seem to know that his intentions are to misuse patristic quotations to fit his belief in pacifism.   Roll Eyes

What other possible reason would he misuse them? I made sure he had access to the writings, he acknowledged receiving the writings on his kindle and said to me that he does not understand them, at least referring to St Hippolytus and said he had not read St. Basil. And for the record that quote cited in the OP by St. Basil, I could not find. So either he quoted them being totally unaware of their canons or other teachings, or he did it purposely. His quotation of Father Stanley Harakas is a great example of this, did he read the whole article? If he did, why did he ignore the summary of Father Stanley Harakas and opt to make it seem as if Fr. Harakas was advocating pacifism? So either way he is to blame for pure ignorance or purposefully misusing the church fathers to suit his own agenda. The fact that he has outright refused to listen to several people tell him he should not do this, he continued. So, based on what we know, what am I supposed to think?
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« Reply #333 on: August 29, 2013, 02:07:39 PM »

Also, Lyza, you are asking me Gebres intentions and what he knows, that is why I directed you to him, ask him. Me answering for him or what I think is not going to give you an answer as I cannot possibly know his intentions or what he is thinking, I can only assume. If you want to know, go ask him.
Yet you seem to know that his intentions are to misuse patristic quotations to fit his belief in pacifism.   Roll Eyes

What other possible reason would he misuse them? I made sure he had access to the writings, he acknowledged receiving the writings on his kindle and said to me that he does not understand them, at least referring to St Hippolytus and said he had not read St. Basil. And for the record that quote cited in the OP by St. Basil, I could not find. So either he quoted them being totally unaware of their canons or other teachings, or he did it purposely. His quotation of Father Stanley Harakas is a great example of this, did he read the whole article? If he did, why did he ignore the summary of Father Stanley Harakas and opt to make it seem as if Fr. Harakas was advocating pacifism? So either way he is to blame for pure ignorance or purposefully misusing the church fathers to suit his own agenda. The fact that he has outright refused to listen to several people tell him he should not do this, he continued. So, based on what we know, what am I supposed to think?
Well, you could think, "Maybe I don't need to be the Gebre policeman and I will let this to be resolved between him and his priest"
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« Reply #334 on: August 29, 2013, 02:09:24 PM »

Also, Lyza, you are asking me Gebres intentions and what he knows, that is why I directed you to him, ask him. Me answering for him or what I think is not going to give you an answer as I cannot possibly know his intentions or what he is thinking, I can only assume. If you want to know, go ask him.
Yet you seem to know that his intentions are to misuse patristic quotations to fit his belief in pacifism.   Roll Eyes

What other possible reason would he misuse them? I made sure he had access to the writings, he acknowledged receiving the writings on his kindle and said to me that he does not understand them, at least referring to St Hippolytus and said he had not read St. Basil. And for the record that quote cited in the OP by St. Basil, I could not find. So either he quoted them being totally unaware of their canons or other teachings, or he did it purposely. His quotation of Father Stanley Harakas is a great example of this, did he read the whole article? If he did, why did he ignore the summary of Father Stanley Harakas and opt to make it seem as if Fr. Harakas was advocating pacifism? So either way he is to blame for pure ignorance or purposefully misusing the church fathers to suit his own agenda. The fact that he has outright refused to listen to several people tell him he should not do this, he continued. So, based on what we know, what am I supposed to think?
Well, you could think, "Maybe I don't need to be the Gebre policeman and I will let this to be resolved between him and his priest"

Hopefully it will be, and I am not attempting to police him. Just point out the errors he refuses to see, thats all. Smiley
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« Reply #335 on: August 29, 2013, 02:23:06 PM »

Ioannes,

 Let's walk through this and see if it makes sense;  So just because somebody didn't change their mind after you talked to them, you're gonna take what's obviously a personal issue to a forum that has zero authority to make them change their mind to...  make them change their mind?  Assuming this isn't a pathetic bid for attention, why not just take the matter up with their priest or bishop?  Better yet, why not worry about your own problems?  

 I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down. 
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« Reply #336 on: August 29, 2013, 02:31:06 PM »


Look, I made it clear what the intention of showing that site was. If it predates his baptism then so be it.

Imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on his book and or his FB page, blog, etc. If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused or think he IS some sort of authority or religious leader. The way he present himself and his arguments would suggest to those who dont know better that he has some authority with which to teach. Now, imagine someone from the military reads his anti-military comments or the poem he wrote against soldiers.


Really.  I think we could do worse if folks reading his posts, decided that "peace" is a good thing, and abortion is a bad thing.

I haven't read the poem, but, if I had I would have shaken my head sadly.

This is America.  We have freedom of speech here.  You don't have to agree with him.  In fact, you ought to stay away from him.  Stop reading what he posts on Facebook. 

Until or unless he states that he IS representing the Church is some capacity, he is free to write what he wishes.

As I said, you've done your Christian duty, in advising him of his mistakes, for the sake of his salvation.  Now, leave it up to him to either accept your correction or not.

You've already done it.

Now, just leave it alone, and focus on the next target.
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« Reply #337 on: August 29, 2013, 06:36:52 PM »

Also, Lyza, you are asking me Gebres intentions and what he knows, that is why I directed you to him, ask him. Me answering for him or what I think is not going to give you an answer as I cannot possibly know his intentions or what he is thinking, I can only assume. If you want to know, go ask him.
Yet you seem to know that his intentions are to misuse patristic quotations to fit his belief in pacifism.   Roll Eyes
That's what Gebre does. There's no need to discern his intent.
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« Reply #338 on: August 29, 2013, 06:38:28 PM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down. 
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?
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« Reply #339 on: August 29, 2013, 06:49:24 PM »

And Lizas point is further proven.
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« Reply #340 on: August 29, 2013, 09:08:04 PM »

Ioannes,

 Let's walk through this and see if it makes sense;  So just because somebody didn't change their mind after you talked to them, you're gonna take what's obviously a personal issue to a forum that has zero authority to make them change their mind to...  make them change their mind?  Assuming this isn't a pathetic bid for attention, why not just take the matter up with their priest or bishop?  Better yet, why not worry about your own problems?  

 I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down. 

Nope, if that is a result of all this then hooray. But if you read through this you would see that I have explained this several times, maybe you should go through and read the several times I have explained this and then maybe that will explain it.

Lyza, thank you. I have not discussed anything with him since he removed me. The only reason I am posting here is to make sure that my intentions are clear, despite that they seem to remain unclear to some. Once again, I am not saying that I disagree and that is why I am doing this, I have stated clearly that is is not a personal matter nor a matter of disagreement. The OP is clear that I have an issue with him continually misusing fathers and others writings to justify his stance.

I know that some perhaps think this is a personal grudge, the fact is, Gebre and I know many personal things about each other, either of us could easily have turned this into a public mudslinging contest, but he remained silent and I did my best to stick to the issue that I have a problem with. I know Gebre seems to think I have betrayed him, and thats fine, and that I am maligning his character, again he is free to think whatever he wishes when it comes to people criticizing his methods or views, and like I said many of us have pointed this particular issue out to him on a number of occasions. This is his way of dealing with it, making me or others the "bad guy." I will tell you this, I would NOT have given my daughter his recently deceased daughters name if I did not feel some sort of connection with the guy. It truly is unfortunate that he uses dishonest methods to mislead people, wether he knows it or not. But him outright refusing to listen is a serious issue, in my opinion and others who are close to him. He flat out told me that he does not need me giving him any advice.
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« Reply #341 on: August 29, 2013, 09:11:07 PM »


LOL!  I would be impressed to see proof that some of the icons in the Schlock icon thread are canonically Orthodox icons.

I believe, it would be easier to find sources to support her statements, than to refute them.



Nevertheless, there were some people, priests or bishops who consider them OK. That means it's their opinion vs. LBK's opinion.

Which ones, Michal? Oh, wait, this "Mother of God, Patroness of Football"  was blessed by a Byzantine Catholic bishop, and a Ukrainian Orthodox priest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=If_Ipj81kdY

By your logic, this makes this image suitable for veneration. Ri-iiight ....  

Oh, dear........ Sad


Of course this is wrong on many counts.  First, it's not even football......
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« Reply #342 on: August 29, 2013, 09:17:42 PM »



...

Imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on his book and or his FB page, blog, etc. If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused or think he IS some sort of authority or religious leader. ...


and imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on this site and thread...etc.  If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused and think that numerous people here are some sort of authority, or that Orthodoxy cannot even agree with themselves...

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« Reply #343 on: August 29, 2013, 09:22:27 PM »



...

Imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on his book and or his FB page, blog, etc. If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused or think he IS some sort of authority or religious leader. ...


and imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on this site and thread...etc.  If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused and think that numerous people here are some sort of authority, or that Orthodoxy cannot even agree with themselves...



Well, I would hope that the person would, if they had the misfortune of stumbling upon this site, read the OP first to see that this is not even an issue of two opposing views disagreeing, or even about religion, but about someone being dishonest. I would think that someone coming upon this site and seeing that it is filled with all sorts of religions, not just Orthodoxy, that would be odd for them as it was for me. Why is the name even OrthodoxChristianity.net if its for everyone? That in itself is confusing.
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« Reply #344 on: August 29, 2013, 09:30:21 PM »


Well, I would hope that the person would, if they had the misfortune of stumbling upon this site, read the OP first to see that this is not even an issue of two opposing views disagreeing, or even about religion, but about someone being dishonest. I would think that someone coming upon this site and seeing that it is filled with all sorts of religions, not just Orthodoxy, that would be odd for them as it was for me. Why is the name even OrthodoxChristianity.net if its for everyone? That in itself is confusing.

Misfortune to stumble upon this site?  Really?  You must be very unfortunate, because you stumbled upon it.

Why is it called Orthodox, and open to all?

How better to teach the non-Orthodox, then to allow them to freely come and ask questions, and discuss beliefs?
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« Reply #345 on: August 29, 2013, 09:33:29 PM »



...

Imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on his book and or his FB page, blog, etc. If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused or think he IS some sort of authority or religious leader. ...


and imagine someone looking to Orthodoxy and stumbles on this site and thread...etc.  If they have no understanding how Orthodoxy works then it would be very easy for them to be confused and think that numerous people here are some sort of authority, or that Orthodoxy cannot even agree with themselves...



Well, I would hope that the person would, if they had the misfortune of stumbling upon this site, read the OP first to see that this is not even an issue of two opposing views disagreeing, or even about religion, but about someone being dishonest. I would think that someone coming upon this site and seeing that it is filled with all sorts of religions, not just Orthodoxy, that would be odd for them as it was for me. Why is the name even OrthodoxChristianity.net if its for everyone? That in itself is confusing.


So.....you expect these folks to have some -discernment- about the content here....and be knowledgeable enough to know the differences between who is wise and who is full of horse pucky, considering almost everyone here postures at being wise and correct.

Yet you cannot see that these -same- folks, who would be likely to stumble on the other sites in question, would lose ALL that knowledge and discernment?

Do you see the issue with that logic?

So you are not -assisting- us poor confused inquirers either...
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« Reply #346 on: August 29, 2013, 10:53:28 PM »

Ioannes,

Maybe you already answered this, but what is the passage or paragraph Gebre wrote that disturbs you the most?

Generally the ones we discussed so far seem arguable.

Also, I don't know what Gebre's relations with Ras Tafarianism before becoming Oriental Orthodox have to do with the OP of this thread, which is supposed to be about his pacifism.
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« Reply #347 on: August 30, 2013, 12:22:36 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down. 
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
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« Reply #348 on: August 30, 2013, 01:03:07 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down.  
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
You do realize that I've also been just as outspoken in my criticism of Ioannes's deplorable tactics on this thread? I've been hard, but I've been fair.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 01:13:07 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #349 on: August 30, 2013, 01:04:52 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down.  
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
You do realize that I've also been just as outspoken in my criticism of Ioannes's deplorable tactics on this thread?

NO

By that I am it appears that you have been supportive of this thread. I am not.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 01:07:23 AM by Opus118 » Logged
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« Reply #350 on: August 30, 2013, 01:16:52 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down.  
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
You do realize that I've also been just as outspoken in my criticism of Ioannes's deplorable tactics on this thread?

NO
Then please take the time to realize it. As I said, I've been hard, but I've been fair.

By that I am it appears that you have been supportive of this thread. I am not.
That's fine. I don't particularly like this thread, either, but I see no reason to override my colleague's decision to keep it open.
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« Reply #351 on: August 30, 2013, 01:22:00 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down. 
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
Thank you Opus.

If there was ever a time to support abortion it would be for this thread.
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« Reply #352 on: August 30, 2013, 01:31:10 AM »

Maybe we should start another thread on this, but since it seems appropriate here.  I think everyone should be required to post their parish name and location, with priests name, email and phone number, as well as their Bishops corresponding information.  You know, just in case we need to contact them later based on what someone says here.  In the event they need to be punished corrected.   Wink
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« Reply #353 on: August 30, 2013, 01:35:34 AM »

Maybe we should start another thread on this, but since it seems appropriate here.  I think everyone should be required to post their parish name and location, with priests name, email and phone number, as well as their Bishops corresponding information.  You know, just in case we need to contact them later based on what someone says here.  In the event they need to be punished corrected.   Wink
You first. Wink
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« Reply #354 on: August 30, 2013, 01:41:14 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down.  
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
You do realize that I've also been just as outspoken in my criticism of Ioannes's deplorable tactics on this thread?

NO
Then please take the time to realize it. As I said, I've been hard, but I've been fair.

By that I am it appears that you have been supportive of this thread. I am not.
That's fine. I don't particularly like this thread, either, but I see no reason to override my colleague's decision to keep it open.

Thanks Peter. I think what disturbs me the most is that someone must confess to false OCnet Priests/Priestesses based on what they wrote or believed before they became Orthodox. This is what bothers me. It would be appropriate that I warn every potential covert of this abuse here. Does that make sense? Am I misreading this thread?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 01:43:26 AM by Opus118 » Logged
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« Reply #355 on: August 30, 2013, 01:45:10 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down.  
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
You do realize that I've also been just as outspoken in my criticism of Ioannes's deplorable tactics on this thread?

NO
Then please take the time to realize it. As I said, I've been hard, but I've been fair.

By that I am it appears that you have been supportive of this thread. I am not.
That's fine. I don't particularly like this thread, either, but I see no reason to override my colleague's decision to keep it open.

Thanks Peter. I think what disturbs me the most is that someone must confess to false OCnet Priests/Priestesses based on what they wrote or believed before they became Orthodox. This is what bothers me. It would be appropriate that I warn every potential covert of this abuse here. Does that make sense? Am I misreading this thread?
I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Huh Would you please enlighten me?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 01:46:14 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Opus118
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« Reply #356 on: August 30, 2013, 01:49:10 AM »

Maybe we should start another thread on this, but since it seems appropriate here.  I think everyone should be required to post their parish name and location, with priests name, email and phone number, as well as their Bishops corresponding information.  You know, just in case we need to contact them later based on what someone says here.  In the event they need to be punished corrected.   Wink

Kerdy, I was only suggesting that they should consult as to whether they are on the right path. Don't lampoon me on something that I think is important.
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« Reply #357 on: August 30, 2013, 01:51:51 AM »

I vote the mods lock this embarrassing waste of bandwidth down.  
Why are you saying this publicly rather than use the "Report to Moderator" function?

 I will, this thread is an ABOMINATION!!!. You obviously have personal gripes. I do not, even though we disagree on many things. The similarity of what is going on here to bullying (primarily by you and Ioannes and LBK) is clear to me because I have been dealing with the after effects of this problem for a long time and at great cost. It seems to me that your view of the topic of this thread is about three members of this forum complaining about Gebre. It seems to me if  you have problems about his posts, you should deal with it in the thread that he posted. In reading this thread how many people are participating in your gripe? Not many. You are wrong about what this thread was about based on the initial post, you made it much more than that.

Peter tA, LBK, Ioannes, please post what your priests think about this thread.
You do realize that I've also been just as outspoken in my criticism of Ioannes's deplorable tactics on this thread?

NO
Then please take the time to realize it. As I said, I've been hard, but I've been fair.

By that I am it appears that you have been supportive of this thread. I am not.
That's fine. I don't particularly like this thread, either, but I see no reason to override my colleague's decision to keep it open.

Thanks Peter. I think what disturbs me the most is that someone must confess to false OCnet Priests/Priestesses based on what they wrote or believed before they became Orthodox. This is what bothers me. It would be appropriate that I warn every potential covert of this abuse here. Does that make sense? Am I misreading this thread?
I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Huh Would you please enlighten me?

I was referring to Liza's posts above. It is 11 pm and I have to wake up at 5 am so I will quit now.
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« Reply #358 on: August 30, 2013, 02:35:38 AM »

Maybe we should start another thread on this, but since it seems appropriate here.  I think everyone should be required to post their parish name and location, with priests name, email and phone number, as well as their Bishops corresponding information.  You know, just in case we need to contact them later based on what someone says here.  In the event they need to be punished corrected.   Wink

Kerdy, I was only suggesting that they should consult as to whether they are on the right path. Don't lampoon me on something that I think is important.

It wasn't in response to your post, rather to Ioannes' demand to know Gebre's information and Gebre didn't give it to him.
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« Reply #359 on: August 30, 2013, 08:43:42 AM »


...as some are not.

And is she an  ecumenical council to declare that? Isn't overauthority of some laymen the problem being discussed in this thread?

I'm not sure that all authoritative issues need to rise to the level of Hierarch, Synod, or Ecumenical Council.  There are generally accepted principles and standards that can be applied by all - otherwise, we would be paralyzed waiting for each level of administration to address the myriad of questions and challenges that arise day-to-day.

Along these lines, I can understand why you would feel this way about LBK's participation in icon discussions as the tone may seem similar to Gebre's usual style.  However, I find that the great difference in substantive approach between the two negates any apparent similarity.  LBK speaks about icons from a researched and reasonable position that is in line with the overwhelming majority of Orthodox sources and tradition on the subject, and keeps responses only to discussions of the substance of the icons themselves and the underlying theological problems seen in them.  Gebre's approach to the pacifist issue is more problematic considering the history of the Church-state relationship and the willingness to bless the soldiers (even if we don't bless the plans, ideals, etc.).  I am sympathetic to his position - I believe that war is never justified from a Christian moral POV, that it always must be repented of (since the taking of a life is a traumatic event for the soul regardless of the justification for doing it), and that we don't do a good enough job of promoting a peaceful agenda.  But I would never take it to the level of implying (or openly stating) that it is a dogmatic truth of Christianity that we must always be pacifists.  It is an untenable position.

(p.s. I only highlighted the two individuals to contrast good and bad approaches to dogmatic questions, NOT to start a debate about either user personally.)

Much of this thread is interesting, but I can not get past the fact that the title is directing it towards the point of view of one poster. I would hate to see us devolve to a series of posts doing just that. It would tend to stifle the expression of provocative or unpopular points of view and transform the board into a "Hallelujah Chorus" of self righteous triumphalism or a boring place of the repetitive self-evident. There is plenty of room to dispute or counter a post in the body of a thread with which we take issue.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 08:44:38 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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