Author Topic: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)  (Read 27899 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #180 on: August 26, 2013, 02:09:11 PM »
Am I the only one concerned that converts with chrism not dried yet start to write books about theology and spirituality and pretend to be teachers? There is a canon that fresh converts should not be ordained until some time. IMO this should also be applied to theological blog posts and books.

Agreed.

So why have you done that?

I am sorry could you be more specific?

You wrote a book a year after your conversion.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #181 on: August 26, 2013, 02:14:59 PM »
Am I the only one concerned that converts with chrism not dried yet start to write books about theology and spirituality and pretend to be teachers? There is a canon that fresh converts should not be ordained until some time. IMO this should also be applied to theological blog posts and books.

Agreed.

So why have you done that?

I am sorry could you be more specific?

You wrote a book a year after your conversion.

Yes indeed. The book was not teaching about Orthodox theology in the slightest, it was teaching about the error of protestantism. However I did not seek proper approval and was repremanded. Now I know. lol

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #182 on: August 26, 2013, 02:17:06 PM »
Am I the only one concerned that converts with chrism not dried yet start to write books about theology and spirituality and pretend to be teachers? There is a canon that fresh converts should not be ordained until some time. IMO this should also be applied to theological blog posts and books.

Well there was Canon 64 of the Council of Trullo... though I'm not sure if that was ever really followed strictly (or, in more recent times, much at all).

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #183 on: August 26, 2013, 03:40:49 PM »
It's in the politics section, but here is a refresher:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19779.0.html

I think we can't quote from politics, but it is OK to link to a thread? If it isn't please delete this comment mods.
You have acted properly within the rules of the forum.  -PtA :)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #184 on: August 26, 2013, 03:41:57 PM »
It's in the politics section, but here is a refresher:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19779.0.html

I think we can't quote from politics, but it is OK to link to a thread? If it isn't please delete this comment mods.

It doesnt work for me, but is it relevant to the OP at least?
You'll need access to the Politics board, which only Fr. George can give you, to follow the link. If you want this access, then please send Fr. George a private message requesting this access.  -PtA
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #185 on: August 26, 2013, 03:43:29 PM »
I have been in "the fight" in some way all of my life.  I am a born fighter, it’s part of who I have always been, but if Gebre doesn't want to be involved in violence, he has that right and I will support his choice and defend his actions.  

Every man must live with his conscience and follow his path with Jesus.  Gebre feels his path is proper and for him it certainly is and for others who are struggling with certain issues he may be able to provide the information and guidance they need which will make it their path as well.  

I doubt there will ever be a point in my life I would not fight if it was required, but I can say in all honestly I wish I were more like Gebre when those moments arise and to be even more honest, I am a little tired of people talking down to him for his views.  If everyone acted like Gebre, do you not think the world would be a better place?  I do.  So, how about everyone get off his back.


George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."  I do not mind those that pretend to be peaceful, as long as they do not criticise and make life difficult for those of us who allow them the luxury of their beliefs.

George Orwell is a genius, but I disagree with him.

This is because there were martyrs, and nobody committed violence on their behalf.

I think this argument has more to do with the weakness of our faith, to justify war, rather than to accept martyrdom if God so wills it.

If your family was being attacked by a wolf, would you shoot it or let it have it's din-din? 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #186 on: August 26, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)
Ioannes is not the only one who has had such dealings with Gebre.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #187 on: August 26, 2013, 03:51:11 PM »
Calling the police is just subcontracting the violence.  Everyone who has ever called the police but condemn those who lift the sword (or the Glock) for their own defense or the defense of others is a hypocrite.  I think most pacifists would appreciate violence more if they had ever been subjected to it.  To believe in your heart that you could wear the martyr's crown until you have had it foisted upon you is hubris.  
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #188 on: August 26, 2013, 03:56:50 PM »
I've got an idea: Don't read his stuff. :o Then you don't have to start bizarrely personal threads like this one.

Noted, do not start threads divulging the dishonest teachings of others as that is "personal." And apparently bizarre as well.

It is of course traditional to the Church to identify heresies by their founders (e.g., Nestorianism, Arianism, etc.), so when I see a thread about "Gebredoxy", I expect something about heresies that he has founded. I think pointing out things you disagree with in his books that are (as far as I can tell from his posts about them) largely his personal ruminations as a convert falls well short of demonstrating that he is actually heretical in this manner, so yes, it does strike me as somewhat inappropriately personal (particularly as you had previously identified him by his real name). I am not aware of him having claimed to teach his personal opinions as the Orthodox faith in toto, as though there is no room to disagree and still be Orthodox (and I write this as another Orthodox convert who has disagreed with him many times in the past on many of the same issues raised in this thread).
I have seen Gebre do just that (of which you are not aware).
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #189 on: August 26, 2013, 04:02:08 PM »
Calling the police is just subcontracting the violence.  Everyone who has ever called the police but condemn those who lift the sword (or the Glock) for their own defense or the defense of others is a hypocrite.  I think most pacifists would appreciate violence more if they had ever been subjected to it.  To believe in your heart that you could wear the martyr's crown until you have had it foisted upon you is hubris.  
Let's not engage yeshuaisiam's comments advocating pacifism, for the subject of pacifism in and of itself is not the focus of this thread. We have other threads where pacifism itself is the focus; let's take our tangent there.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #190 on: August 26, 2013, 04:16:52 PM »
I have been in "the fight" in some way all of my life.  I am a born fighter, it’s part of who I have always been, but if Gebre doesn't want to be involved in violence, he has that right and I will support his choice and defend his actions.  

Every man must live with his conscience and follow his path with Jesus.  Gebre feels his path is proper and for him it certainly is and for others who are struggling with certain issues he may be able to provide the information and guidance they need which will make it their path as well.  

I doubt there will ever be a point in my life I would not fight if it was required, but I can say in all honestly I wish I were more like Gebre when those moments arise and to be even more honest, I am a little tired of people talking down to him for his views.  If everyone acted like Gebre, do you not think the world would be a better place?  I do.  So, how about everyone get off his back.


George Orwell, in his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", wrote "(It is) grossly obvious (that) those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."  I do not mind those that pretend to be peaceful, as long as they do not criticise and make life difficult for those of us who allow them the luxury of their beliefs.

George Orwell is a genius, but I disagree with him.

This is because there were martyrs, and nobody committed violence on their behalf.

I think this argument has more to do with the weakness of our faith, to justify war, rather than to accept martyrdom if God so wills it.

If your family was being attacked by a wolf, would you shoot it or let it have it's din-din? 

I'd shoot it.

If my family was directly being attacked I would defend them, as God has stated we could.

If I was called to go to war, to fend off a bank robbery, etc., I would not. 

I agree with most of the views of Gabre on non-resistance.   I believe it is biblical, fits into the mold of early Christian mentality and faith, and honestly, it is a command of God.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #191 on: August 26, 2013, 04:20:40 PM »
Calling the police is just subcontracting the violence.  Everyone who has ever called the police but condemn those who lift the sword (or the Glock) for their own defense or the defense of others is a hypocrite.  I think most pacifists would appreciate violence more if they had ever been subjected to it.  To believe in your heart that you could wear the martyr's crown until you have had it foisted upon you is hubris.  

That was pretty much my point.

I believe it is our weakness of faith which makes us justify violence, unlike the martyrs.   I also agree that it is hypocrisy to call the police or have anybody do violence on your behalf.   I'm trying to find out where Gebre is incorrect about his stances on a biblical level.   

The only thing I can find in the bible where we are justified to use force is against people coming to cause harm to you or your family during the night.

There is a huge difference between suddenly finding yourself having to save the lives of your family suddenly and unexpectedly against allowing yourself to join the military, be put to war, flown to an area to fight, and the fighting itself.

Nothing wrong with guns and pacifism is awesome and fine.  I hunt all the time, in fact shot a skunk yesterday, and a deer 2.5 weeks ago (cleaned and ate it).
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 04:26:42 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #192 on: August 26, 2013, 04:36:35 PM »
Yesh, I'll send a PM in a moment.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 04:38:10 PM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline vamrat

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #193 on: August 26, 2013, 04:45:15 PM »
Calling the police is just subcontracting the violence.  Everyone who has ever called the police but condemn those who lift the sword (or the Glock) for their own defense or the defense of others is a hypocrite.  I think most pacifists would appreciate violence more if they had ever been subjected to it.  To believe in your heart that you could wear the martyr's crown until you have had it foisted upon you is hubris.  
Let's not engage yeshuaisiam's comments advocating pacifism, for the subject of pacifism in and of itself is not the focus of this thread. We have other threads where pacifism itself is the focus; let's take our tangent there.

Unless this should have been in Green (I did take it to PM, regardless) I would argue that Pacifism is the root of the issue, unless we are supposed to be limiting our responses to a hit-piece on Gebre.  If I am reading this right, the main thing that Gebre did wrong is that he is proclaiming Pacifism to be the authoritative position of the Church.  I would like to think that some time was spent at Nicea describing how Christ was the Son of God and equal and equally unoriginate with the Father, rather than just saying Arius is a giant poopsicle. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2013, 04:45:38 PM »

I know who his priest is.  I know who his bishop is.

No, I will not tell anyone.



He at least mentions who his priest is in his posting history. So if anyone has the time/inclination they could find it. I honestly don't remember the name of his priest. But I have looked at the website in the past. It is hardly a secret if he has posted it himself. But I completely understand not posting it again without his permission.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2013, 04:54:43 PM »
Gebre has matured in many ways on this site. His posts when he first started years ago were very reactionary and infuriating. He would write something very unkind, then end it with Selam like it made it turn into something kind/loving.

I hope that as the convert fervor dies that he looks back and regrets how dogmatic he was about theology he barely knew. His personal theological convictions are distinct from the theological view of the church at large.

The poster I learned the most from, and miss the most is ozgeorge :'( Fortunately we keep in contact some via facebook.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 04:55:54 PM by Quinault »

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #196 on: August 26, 2013, 05:06:23 PM »

Yes, I miss OzGeorge, too!

He had returned for a bit, a while back.

You gotta love Facebook, no?  It's a great way to keep in touch and get to know folks.

OzGeorge has turned into quite the iconographer.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #197 on: August 26, 2013, 05:13:00 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:

...
Ioannes, I must state that it is also very bad form for you to reveal what someone else shares on his Facebook page without his permission. Whereas we have a rule forbidding the sharing of content written in an OC.net personal message without the sender's permission, we have no such rule forbidding you to share what one has posted on his Facebook page. Even so, only Gebre's FB friends are able to see what he posts on FB--it is not material published for the world to see--so for you to share it here without his permission is a betrayal of your FB friendship and should not be done, unless, of course, you want him to unfriend you.

BTW, it appears now that Gebre has totally removed himself from Facebook (except for the page he set up to advertise his books) and deleted his Facebook page.

Having said all this, I am constrained to say that, even though I agree with the content of your posts, I am starting to agree quite strongly with the others on this thread who have called your tactics despicable. You should think about this.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 05:28:18 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #198 on: August 26, 2013, 05:27:30 PM »
I've got an idea: Don't read his stuff. :o Then you don't have to start bizarrely personal threads like this one.

Noted, do not start threads divulging the dishonest teachings of others as that is "personal." And apparently bizarre as well.

It is of course traditional to the Church to identify heresies by their founders (e.g., Nestorianism, Arianism, etc.), so when I see a thread about "Gebredoxy", I expect something about heresies that he has founded. I think pointing out things you disagree with in his books that are (as far as I can tell from his posts about them) largely his personal ruminations as a convert falls well short of demonstrating that he is actually heretical in this manner, so yes, it does strike me as somewhat inappropriately personal (particularly as you had previously identified him by his real name). I am not aware of him having claimed to teach his personal opinions as the Orthodox faith in toto, as though there is no room to disagree and still be Orthodox (and I write this as another Orthodox convert who has disagreed with him many times in the past on many of the same issues raised in this thread).
I have seen Gebre do just that (of which you are not aware).

Hmm. Alright. That is a problem, then. I don't think anyone's personal opinion should stand in for the Orthodox faith, as though just because we can find a father (or, more often, a particular quote or a few quotes from a particular father) who seems to support our ideas, then we can say that the Church says X (whatever we happen to believe). Frankly, who can't find some father somewhere to do that with? That's precisely why our faith does not rest upon the ideas of one person, be they an Early Church Father, a later saint, a particular bishop, priest, etc. So...yeah, I'm disappointed. I guess I should've paid closer attention, but honestly the times I most directly engaged Gebre in the past I don't remember very many quotes from the Fathers at all (since they didn't write about Haile Selassie or Rastafarianism).
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 05:28:15 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Shiny

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #199 on: August 26, 2013, 05:53:59 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:
“Sometimes we just need to remain silent. This is very difficult when lies and false accusations about us are being proliferated by those who are either mentally disturbed or demonically driven. Or maybe they just have some sort of personal grudge against us. But it gets to the point where answering every attack and responding to every false accusation saps one’s energy and drains one’s soul. The truth will always prevail in the end, and our true friends and true brethren will not be swayed by the malicious opinions of those who falsely malign us. Sadly, not everyone who calls us ‘friend’ and ‘brother’ is truly a friend and a brother. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from their negativity and spite, and just let their vitriolic torches burn themselves out. Unfortunately, they may deceive a lot of people along the way, and they may even succeed in damaging our reputation and character. But when this happens, remember that Our Lord Himself was accused of gluttony and drunkenness. (St. Matthew 11:19) God knows our hearts, and when we are accused unjustly, unfairly, and untruthfully, the best response is to simply rest silently and peacefully in Our Lord’s unconditional love.” Selam, +GMK+ (https://www.facebook.com/gebre.menfeskidus?fref=ts)

Again, this is what I am talking about. Anytime any accusation or criticism is leveled against him, he fails to address it, then paints himself as a martyr of some kind. I am not sure exactly why he continues and does not just address why it is that he sees fit to misuse church fathers? And note, its never his fault or anything that he could be responsible for, there is always an excuse. I feel I have been consistent and very clear on the issue, apparently Gebre thinks this is a personal attack. How am I deceiving people in pointing out Gebre's clear misuse of others writings?

I can only hope that at the very least others see that he has been dishonest and entirely unwilling to admit it or at the very least address it. I accused him, but it was just, and fair, and truthful, as can clearly be seen in the OP. I quoted him directly and showed each point where he was incorrect. :(
Your level of insincerity and hubristic narcissism is utterly disgusting and deplorable. You are doing nothing remotely positive to even slightly alter his views.

Shame on you.

And to think Trisagon's "whore/horses" thread plateaued the nastiness around here.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2013, 06:10:59 PM »
Am I the only one concerned that converts with chrism not dried yet start to write books about theology and spirituality and pretend to be teachers? There is a canon that fresh converts should not be ordained until some time. IMO this should also be applied to theological blog posts and books.

I'm not as concerned about this, but only because there is "a process" governing such things, even if it is not always followed or enforced properly.  Also, I really don't know of enough fresh converts who write books about Orthodox teaching to be concerned. 

Perhaps off topic, but what I'm actually rather disturbed by is the profusion of posts, in this and other threads, by (non-)Orthodox Christians containing phrases such as:

"God has commanded us..."
"God has stated..."
"The Bible says..."
"We are authorized..."
"We are given direct permission by God to..."
"God has told us what to do..."

and so on.  I understand that such people are or would claim to be speaking based on Scripture, which is full of "Thus says the LORD", but the Prophets don't come across as a (Orthodox) Christian Taliban.  I can't say the same for some of these posters, sadly, and that concerns me.  I'd love to be wrong, as it would be less frightening than being right.   
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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2013, 07:39:43 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:

...
Ioannes, I must state that it is also very bad form for you to reveal what someone else shares on his Facebook page without his permission. Whereas we have a rule forbidding the sharing of content written in an OC.net personal message without the sender's permission, we have no such rule forbidding you to share what one has posted on his Facebook page. Even so, only Gebre's FB friends are able to see what he posts on FB--it is not material published for the world to see--so for you to share it here without his permission is a betrayal of your FB friendship and should not be done, unless, of course, you want him to unfriend you.

BTW, it appears now that Gebre has totally removed himself from Facebook (except for the page he set up to advertise his books) and deleted his Facebook page.

Having said all this, I am constrained to say that, even though I agree with the content of your posts, I am starting to agree quite strongly with the others on this thread who have called your tactics despicable. You should think about this.
Once in a blue moon I agree with PtheA . Ioannes needs to learn some basic social skills.
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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2013, 08:03:40 PM »
Am I the only one concerned that converts with chrism not dried yet start to write books about theology and spirituality and pretend to be teachers? There is a canon that fresh converts should not be ordained until some time. IMO this should also be applied to theological blog posts and books.

It's not often I agree with you, Michal, but you're 100% right on this.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2013, 08:21:31 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:

...
Ioannes, I must state that it is also very bad form for you to reveal what someone else shares on his Facebook page without his permission. Whereas we have a rule forbidding the sharing of content written in an OC.net personal message without the sender's permission, we have no such rule forbidding you to share what one has posted on his Facebook page. Even so, only Gebre's FB friends are able to see what he posts on FB--it is not material published for the world to see--so for you to share it here without his permission is a betrayal of your FB friendship and should not be done, unless, of course, you want him to unfriend you.

BTW, it appears now that Gebre has totally removed himself from Facebook (except for the page he set up to advertise his books) and deleted his Facebook page.

Having said all this, I am constrained to say that, even though I agree with the content of your posts, I am starting to agree quite strongly with the others on this thread who have called your tactics despicable. You should think about this.

Gebres page was public, anyone could see what he posted.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:35:40 PM by Ioannes »

Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2013, 08:24:08 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:
“Sometimes we just need to remain silent. This is very difficult when lies and false accusations about us are being proliferated by those who are either mentally disturbed or demonically driven. Or maybe they just have some sort of personal grudge against us. But it gets to the point where answering every attack and responding to every false accusation saps one’s energy and drains one’s soul. The truth will always prevail in the end, and our true friends and true brethren will not be swayed by the malicious opinions of those who falsely malign us. Sadly, not everyone who calls us ‘friend’ and ‘brother’ is truly a friend and a brother. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from their negativity and spite, and just let their vitriolic torches burn themselves out. Unfortunately, they may deceive a lot of people along the way, and they may even succeed in damaging our reputation and character. But when this happens, remember that Our Lord Himself was accused of gluttony and drunkenness. (St. Matthew 11:19) God knows our hearts, and when we are accused unjustly, unfairly, and untruthfully, the best response is to simply rest silently and peacefully in Our Lord’s unconditional love.” Selam, +GMK+ (https://www.facebook.com/gebre.menfeskidus?fref=ts)

Again, this is what I am talking about. Anytime any accusation or criticism is leveled against him, he fails to address it, then paints himself as a martyr of some kind. I am not sure exactly why he continues and does not just address why it is that he sees fit to misuse church fathers? And note, its never his fault or anything that he could be responsible for, there is always an excuse. I feel I have been consistent and very clear on the issue, apparently Gebre thinks this is a personal attack. How am I deceiving people in pointing out Gebre's clear misuse of others writings?

I can only hope that at the very least others see that he has been dishonest and entirely unwilling to admit it or at the very least address it. I accused him, but it was just, and fair, and truthful, as can clearly be seen in the OP. I quoted him directly and showed each point where he was incorrect. :(
Your level of insincerity and hubristic narcissism is utterly disgusting and deplorable. You are doing nothing remotely positive to even slightly alter his views.

Shame on you.

And to think Trisagon's "whore/horses" thread plateaued the nastiness around here.

I tried showing him the error of his certain teachings for two years or so, this is more to expose him to others. Despicable or not, it's pretty sad that someone would opt for a use if church writings rather than listen.

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2013, 08:26:46 PM »
Am I the only one concerned that converts with chrism not dried yet start to write books about theology and spirituality and pretend to be teachers? There is a canon that fresh converts should not be ordained until some time. IMO this should also be applied to theological blog posts and books.

It's not often I agree with you, Michal, but you're 100% right on this.

Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:

...
Ioannes, I must state that it is also very bad form for you to reveal what someone else shares on his Facebook page without his permission. Whereas we have a rule forbidding the sharing of content written in an OC.net personal message without the sender's permission, we have no such rule forbidding you to share what one has posted on his Facebook page. Even so, only Gebre's FB friends are able to see what he posts on FB--it is not material published for the world to see--so for you to share it here without his permission is a betrayal of your FB friendship and should not be done, unless, of course, you want him to unfriend you.

BTW, it appears now that Gebre has totally removed himself from Facebook (except for the page he set up to advertise his books) and deleted his Facebook page.

Having said all this, I am constrained to say that, even though I agree with the content of your posts, I am starting to agree quite strongly with the others on this thread who have called your tactics despicable. You should think about this.
Once in a blue moon I agree with PtheA . Ioannes needs to learn some basic social skills.

Just look at all the positives coming as a result of this thread.  ;)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2013, 08:36:44 PM »
For the record Gebre is still on facebook, he did not remove his profile, although he did remove several people.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2013, 08:36:52 PM »
I am confused, are you for error and misrepresentation of the Orthodox Church?
Just how many people here do you want to stop posting?  Look, if he were deliberately trying to sabotage Orthodoxy then say something.  He interprets things one way, you another.  This is no different than people who misrepresent the Catholic Church or some Protestants on this site, but they interpret them differently.  I don't have to agree, but I'm not going to hunt them down either.  I'm actually studying Catholicism now because of misrepresentation by people here so I will know it when I see it, but what else can a person do but disagree (maybe with some sarcasm  ;) ), but that's about it.  You voiced your opposition, neither of you are clergy, let it rest.

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2013, 08:41:52 PM »
Just for my own personal knowledge, you didn't think blasting the snot out of him on Amazon for the entire world to see was enough, you decided it was needed to bring in here?  So, global blasting wasn't enough?  I am really trying hard to understand here.

At first it was on facebook, but, yes the book has some erroneous teachings as well, I think it would be fair to let people know that. I have brought those errors within his book to his attention, he has since written a second edition without correcting them. I am confused, are you for error and misrepresentation of the Orthodox Church?

I've read some pretty pathetic straw man arguments on here, but this one ranks pretty high up there on the ridiculous scale.

Its a logical question since many, including kerdy, have taking to debating pacifism and Gebres stance rather than what the OP actually addresses.
I addressed the OP already.  People have different views and understand teachings in a different way.  You can't change that and unless the Church has a clear dogma on the subject, you should get frustrated.  Look, I get it, people confuse me with the stuff they believe.  I don't understand, it's not just from left field but another ball park.  They think stuff that just blows me away and I will never get it because I don't think that way, but they do and all we can do is talk about it and eventually let it go.  Plenty of stuff here people believe I personally wouldn't even categorize as Christian, but what can I do about?  Say what I think and maybe change their mind.  That's all.  Just like you.

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #209 on: August 26, 2013, 08:46:55 PM »
I am confused, are you for error and misrepresentation of the Orthodox Church?
Just how many people here do you want to stop posting?  Look, if he were deliberately trying to sabotage Orthodoxy then say something.  He interprets things one way, you another.  This is no different than people who misrepresent the Catholic Church or some Protestants on this site, but they interpret them differently.  I don't have to agree, but I'm not going to hunt them down either.  I'm actually studying Catholicism now because of misrepresentation by people here so I will know it when I see it, but what else can a person do but disagree (maybe with some sarcasm  ;) ), but that's about it.  You voiced your opposition, neither of you are clergy, let it rest.

I am merely attempting to defend what I said, if you havent noticed I am not exactly very well liked for posting it. There are many instances in which differences do boil down to interpretation. Then, there are instances in which someone does not study the entirety of anothers work and selectively embraces what suits them, while ignoring the bulk of their work that clearly states the opposite. That is not interpretation. Then, when this is brought to this persons attention, he considers it "maligning" his character and a personal attack, even when clergy are the ones explaining that he is incorrect quoting them. So you are right in that often times it does come to interpretation, but not in this instance. The only thing I am doing is trying to make my point clear, it is not about his stance on pacifism, it is not a personal attack, this was not my first resort, etc. I never said you had to agree with me, however, writing it off as a matter of interpretation is obviously incorrect...had you read the OP you would see this.

Well, there are canons detailing the issue of war being a necessary evil, and even the use of violence, so, yes there are clear teachings on this. To state the Orthodox Church is pacifist is wrong and ignorant of the church itself.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #210 on: August 26, 2013, 08:54:20 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:
“Sometimes we just need to remain silent. This is very difficult when lies and false accusations about us are being proliferated by those who are either mentally disturbed or demonically driven. Or maybe they just have some sort of personal grudge against us. But it gets to the point where answering every attack and responding to every false accusation saps one’s energy and drains one’s soul. The truth will always prevail in the end, and our true friends and true brethren will not be swayed by the malicious opinions of those who falsely malign us. Sadly, not everyone who calls us ‘friend’ and ‘brother’ is truly a friend and a brother. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from their negativity and spite, and just let their vitriolic torches burn themselves out. Unfortunately, they may deceive a lot of people along the way, and they may even succeed in damaging our reputation and character. But when this happens, remember that Our Lord Himself was accused of gluttony and drunkenness. (St. Matthew 11:19) God knows our hearts, and when we are accused unjustly, unfairly, and untruthfully, the best response is to simply rest silently and peacefully in Our Lord’s unconditional love.” Selam, +GMK+ (https://www.facebook.com/gebre.menfeskidus?fref=ts)

Again, this is what I am talking about. Anytime any accusation or criticism is leveled against him, he fails to address it, then paints himself as a martyr of some kind. I am not sure exactly why he continues and does not just address why it is that he sees fit to misuse church fathers? And note, its never his fault or anything that he could be responsible for, there is always an excuse. I feel I have been consistent and very clear on the issue, apparently Gebre thinks this is a personal attack. How am I deceiving people in pointing out Gebre's clear misuse of others writings?

I can only hope that at the very least others see that he has been dishonest and entirely unwilling to admit it or at the very least address it. I accused him, but it was just, and fair, and truthful, as can clearly be seen in the OP. I quoted him directly and showed each point where he was incorrect. :(
Your level of insincerity and hubristic narcissism is utterly disgusting and deplorable. You are doing nothing remotely positive to even slightly alter his views.

Shame on you.

And to think Trisagon's "whore/horses" thread plateaued the nastiness around here.

I tried showing him the error of his certain teachings for two years or so, this is more to expose him to others. Despicable or not, it's pretty sad that someone would opt for a use if church writings rather than listen.
To ensure I understand this clearly, you don't feel recent converts should be teaching others but you, a recent convert, are upset because Gebre hasn't agreed with your teachings to him.  Is that about right?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #211 on: August 26, 2013, 08:55:52 PM »
For the record Gebre is still on facebook, he did not remove his profile, although he did remove several people.
I don't blame him.  In fact, this sort of thing is why I no longer have FB.

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #212 on: August 26, 2013, 09:03:14 PM »
I am confused, are you for error and misrepresentation of the Orthodox Church?
Just how many people here do you want to stop posting?  Look, if he were deliberately trying to sabotage Orthodoxy then say something.  He interprets things one way, you another.  This is no different than people who misrepresent the Catholic Church or some Protestants on this site, but they interpret them differently.  I don't have to agree, but I'm not going to hunt them down either.  I'm actually studying Catholicism now because of misrepresentation by people here so I will know it when I see it, but what else can a person do but disagree (maybe with some sarcasm  ;) ), but that's about it.  You voiced your opposition, neither of you are clergy, let it rest.

I am merely attempting to defend what I said, if you havent noticed I am not exactly very well liked for posting it.
I thought I was clear but I'll say it again.  I personally agree with your perspective on fighting war.  Heck, I've been to war.  Sometimes it's necessary.  I carry a weapon on and off duty and have no problem using it if its needed and it wouldn't make things worse (proper training required).  Gebre feels differently and I respect that view.  I find nothing wrong in his quoting for support as I find nothing wrong with you quoting for your support. 

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #213 on: August 26, 2013, 09:44:43 PM »
Here is Gebre, I assume, responding to me on his facebook:
“Sometimes we just need to remain silent. This is very difficult when lies and false accusations about us are being proliferated by those who are either mentally disturbed or demonically driven. Or maybe they just have some sort of personal grudge against us. But it gets to the point where answering every attack and responding to every false accusation saps one’s energy and drains one’s soul. The truth will always prevail in the end, and our true friends and true brethren will not be swayed by the malicious opinions of those who falsely malign us. Sadly, not everyone who calls us ‘friend’ and ‘brother’ is truly a friend and a brother. Sometimes we have to remove ourselves from their negativity and spite, and just let their vitriolic torches burn themselves out. Unfortunately, they may deceive a lot of people along the way, and they may even succeed in damaging our reputation and character. But when this happens, remember that Our Lord Himself was accused of gluttony and drunkenness. (St. Matthew 11:19) God knows our hearts, and when we are accused unjustly, unfairly, and untruthfully, the best response is to simply rest silently and peacefully in Our Lord’s unconditional love.” Selam, +GMK+ (https://www.facebook.com/gebre.menfeskidus?fref=ts)

Again, this is what I am talking about. Anytime any accusation or criticism is leveled against him, he fails to address it, then paints himself as a martyr of some kind. I am not sure exactly why he continues and does not just address why it is that he sees fit to misuse church fathers? And note, its never his fault or anything that he could be responsible for, there is always an excuse. I feel I have been consistent and very clear on the issue, apparently Gebre thinks this is a personal attack. How am I deceiving people in pointing out Gebre's clear misuse of others writings?

I can only hope that at the very least others see that he has been dishonest and entirely unwilling to admit it or at the very least address it. I accused him, but it was just, and fair, and truthful, as can clearly be seen in the OP. I quoted him directly and showed each point where he was incorrect. :(
Your level of insincerity and hubristic narcissism is utterly disgusting and deplorable. You are doing nothing remotely positive to even slightly alter his views.

Shame on you.

And to think Trisagon's "whore/horses" thread plateaued the nastiness around here.

I tried showing him the error of his certain teachings for two years or so, this is more to expose him to others. Despicable or not, it's pretty sad that someone would opt for a use if church writings rather than listen.
To ensure I understand this clearly, you don't feel recent converts should be teaching others but you, a recent convert, are upset because Gebre hasn't agreed with your teachings to him.  Is that about right?

No, I do not think people who have converted should immediately start teaching theology or Orthodox doctrine. Again, my problem did not have to do with interpretation or my teaching vs his teaching. His stance on pacifism was not the issue but that he was taking church fathers out of context to prove this, as the OP clearly shows.

My issue with him teaching goes deeper than his dishonesty but his inability to handle any sort of criticism whatsoever, even from clergy. He has clearly imposed his personal beliefs on that of the church and passes them off as church teachings. When I had privately confronted him, several times, he takes offense to this claiming that I am putting words in his mouth or maligning his character. Look, the OP is pretty clear that Gebre took these fathers out of context. Now, since I personally had sent writings of these church fathers to his kindle, he has no excuse. I did that over a year ago in hopes to get him on the proper path, again not to change his stance on pacifism but to show him that this is not something he can say is a church teaching. You cannot misrepresent church fathers, and in fact you should not misrepresent anyone for your own sake.

I think you are still not getting what I am trying to say Kerdy, this is NOT about Gebres stance on pacifism, it is him misquoting people that did not teach pacifism and in fact taught that war is a necessary evil as well as violence. My issue, as I have said several times IS NOT WITH HIS STANCE ON PACIFISM, it is him blatantly misrepresenting what the church teaches on this issue. He SHOULD say, "I believe in pacifism, however, the church does not teach this." Its that simple! But instead he selectively embraces quotes and even has made up quotes while ignoring the entirety of their work which clearly does NOT teach pacifism in any way. If he wants to be pacifist, as I have told him, that is fine you just cannot try to say the church teaches this!

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #214 on: August 26, 2013, 09:56:47 PM »

Ioannes, I wish you would stop repeating yourself.  Everyone can read the OP....however, not everyone will agree with you, no matter how many times you keep repeating it.

Perhaps it's not the message that went wrong, but, the delivery of the message.
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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #215 on: August 26, 2013, 10:02:52 PM »

Ioannes, I wish you would stop repeating yourself.  Everyone can read the OP....however, not everyone will agree with you, no matter how many times you keep repeating it.

Perhaps it's not the message that went wrong, but, the delivery of the message.


That certainly could be the case, however, since so many seem to be focusing on the wrong issue, I feel the need to clear it up. Because I do think there is no issue with someone adhering to pacifism, that is not the focus of the OP, so I have to assume that others did not read it, or perhaps did not clearly understand. Although a few members of clergy read it and stated that it was clear, to the point, and that it was not personally attacking Gebre.


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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #216 on: August 26, 2013, 10:04:51 PM »

It's too bad that the clergy didn't come here and correct him, and left the "dirty work" to a mere layperson.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Ioannes

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #217 on: August 26, 2013, 10:07:57 PM »

It's too bad that the clergy didn't come here and correct him, and left the "dirty work" to a mere layperson.

Why would they come here to correct him when they have already tried elsewhere? This is simply letting people know that this is what Gebre does to justify his stance on pacifism, and on other issues too.

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #218 on: August 26, 2013, 10:46:14 PM »
Calling the police is just subcontracting the violence.  Everyone who has ever called the police but condemn those who lift the sword (or the Glock) for their own defense or the defense of others is a hypocrite.  I think most pacifists would appreciate violence more if they had ever been subjected to it.  To believe in your heart that you could wear the martyr's crown until you have had it foisted upon you is hubris.  
What
Let's not engage yeshuaisiam's comments advocating pacifism, for the subject of pacifism in and of itself is not the focus of this thread. We have other threads where pacifism itself is the focus; let's take our tangent there.

I am catching up here, but if this is not the focus of this thread, then what is???? What other issue did the OP bring up that we should center ourselves. I happen to agree with Gebre on this issue. What is the thread that I should go to. What posts (nearly all of them) dealing with this issue will be transferred there.

Any complaint about Gebre should also apply to me at this point. It is a matter of belief.

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #219 on: August 26, 2013, 11:12:23 PM »

It's too bad that the clergy didn't come here and correct him, and left the "dirty work" to a mere layperson.

Why would they come here to correct him when they have already tried elsewhere? This is simply letting people know that this is what Gebre does to justify his stance on pacifism, and on other issues too.

Ahh more -selfless- community service.

I don't think that anyone here was out signing up for a cult started by anyone, so you could have spared the effort.

Even the newest and greenest(and not in the been moderated way!) amongst us knows the cardinal rule number one

If you are in doubt ask your priest


So just who are you aiming to help here???
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2013, 11:16:56 PM »
Orthodoxy sees itself as the ancient faith. Although things change with the times, and we are not completely stuck in the 3rd century (like giving up TV or something), important aspects of the church really are. We value beliefs and traditions of the third century and wish to continue them ourselves. Holding fast to important traditions from the third century is one of the things that makes us Orthodox.

If pacifism really was an important religious part of the 3rd century Church, then it is something that we as Orthodox would have respect for (although not necessarily be bound by it 100%)
That's the key. This thread wasn't started as a condemnation of pacifism. Pacifism really isn't the issue at all. What is at issue is how far one person is willing to go to make his personal opinion into a dogma of the Church.
Pacifism is part of the issue, the other part being "how far one person is willing to go to make his personal opinion (Pacifism) into a dogma of the Church."

Anyway, I think it is arguably "a" dogma of the Church, but not necessarily "the" dogma of the Church. It looks like one of the beliefs that can be found in the lives, experiences, and writings of important saints. But it is not "the" only opinion in the Church on the topic.

As such, Gebre has a basis for claiming pacifism is "the" correct position- the basis being those saints favoring pacifism, and whatever inspiration and righteousness he finds in their examples. Further, he can claim that considering the important place of that belief in Church Tradition and what he sees as the correctness of the pacifism, that it is essential that the Church does not reject pacifism. In fact this claim is what Gebre is saying.

Granted, one can counterargue him on the correctness of pacifism, but in any case Gebre Menfes can make his claim about pacifism being correct without being "publicly put straight" or whatever suppression the OP has in mind. In fact, so far it seems Gebre's statements have been arguable, reasonable, debatable, etc. based on our traditions, just as one may also simply disagree with him in a normal way.

Regards.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 11:27:17 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #221 on: August 26, 2013, 11:37:42 PM »
For the record Gebre is still on facebook, he did not remove his profile, although he did remove several people.

Yep, he removed and blocked me. Which is fine, he has that right. I already had him removed from my feed because of some past very graphic anti-abortion photos he had posted, my kids use my FB to play games!! I didn't want to see it, so I made it so I wouldn't see it unless I specifically went to his page.

You see, I had the choice to look or not look at what he posted on FB, just like I have the choice to look or not look at his posts on here. I didn't agree with him. But I didn't think that I needed to personally call him out because I disagreed with him. He already *knew* I disagreed with him. He also knew that I thought quoting yourself in every post was asinine. There is no need to take a private disagreement and try to turn it into a lynch mob.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 11:42:36 PM by Quinault »

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #222 on: August 26, 2013, 11:46:14 PM »
I mean really, anyone that thinks that someone that wrote a "theological book" that is completely accurate and reflective of the Orthodox church right after converting needs to buy oceanfront property in Montana. ::)

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #223 on: August 26, 2013, 11:49:50 PM »
I mean really, anyone that thinks that someone that wrote a "theological book" that is completely accurate and reflective of the Orthodox church right after converting needs to buy oceanfront property in Montana. ::)

Hey. They do keep saying most of WA might slide off the continent some eon.

Does Idaho count?  And can we be neighbors?
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)
« Reply #224 on: August 27, 2013, 12:01:22 AM »
The creation of that book was and is hubris, pure hubris. But Gebre is hardly the first person that wrote and published a book for ego stroking.

Rule of thumb if you are new to Orthodoxy:
Unless the theological book in question has reviews by well known Orthodox theologians, it shouldn't be read. Better yet, run a book by your spiritual father, if he hasn't heard of it- DON'T READ IT. Theological reading is like music. You have to know all the rules before you try and break them. You will only get confused if you go off into theological tangents before you have the basics down. And anyone that has the basics down will see thru Gebre's book easily.

I am sure that if Gebre wanted to, he could ask someone to read and authorize/endorse it. The fact that he hasn't makes it clear that either he doesn't want to have someone that is an actual theologian read it, or he has already done so and didn't get the results he wanted. If he had such an endorsement it would be all over his author page. But I am also sure there are kernels here and there of value in his book. He is a nice well meaning, person.

And again, the above that I wrote shouldn't be anything new to Gebre. I have essentially said the same thing to him in the past on here.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:11:48 AM by Quinault »