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Author Topic: how is the Russian church different?  (Read 2193 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2013, 01:56:16 PM »

this is a good sum up:

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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2013, 10:02:55 AM »




 It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2013, 05:10:29 PM »




 It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

How can one achieve theosis by living in immorality?
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2013, 06:47:45 PM »

Nice contract of the pseudotraditional clothes and heavy make-up.
I don't know what a stoga is, but it looks pretty intense:
Кубанский Казачий Хор "Ой стога, стога"

It is a stack of cut hay or grain, but in this song it refers to all Slavic nations that are scattered about and thus unable to defend themselves against rapacious ravens, which in turn represent non-Slavs. The song thus is an appeal for Pan-Slavism.
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2013, 07:28:12 PM »

First noticeable difference in church is the chant, or as some wit put it, the Russian opera. It varies and can be extremely beautiful. And sometimes deacons whose words seem to rise up from the very depth of the earth.

Others have suggested that Russians have iron feet on which they stand for hours. But that is a claim probably made by a Westener who had never seen other Orthodox worshippers who equally may stand in church for hours.

But their old ladies while formidable cannot match the 'sharp' elbows of Greek old ladies. Wink
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2013, 07:43:29 PM »

Nice contract of the pseudotraditional clothes and heavy make-up.
I don't know what a stoga is, but it looks pretty intense:
Кубанский Казачий Хор "Ой стога, стога"

It is a stack of cut hay or grain, but in this song it refers to all Slavic nations that are scattered about and thus unable to defend themselves against rapacious ravens, which in turn represent non-Slavs. The song thus is an appeal for Pan-Slavism.
Thanks for the interesting explanation.
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2013, 07:50:54 PM »

I visited an OCA Church three times and ROCOR once.  They both seemed sincere.
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« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2013, 08:49:18 PM »

From my limited experience with a ROCOR parish:  deacons are required to be basso profondo (Kidding, of  course, but man, their singing/chant can be very deep; and parishioners cross themselves and bow at every single "Lord, have mercy."  You better stretch before Liturgy. Wink  On a serious note, I was treated like family.
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« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2013, 09:17:29 PM »

I'm being serious when I answer the question in a circular manner.

The Russian church is both different and the same, as are any of the traditions of the Orthodox.

Many years ago at the 1963 Pan-Orthodox gathering in Pittsburgh, PA for the CEOYLA conference, the phrase "Unity in Diversity" was popularized. It should be remembered.

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« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2013, 09:20:19 PM »

I'm being serious when I answer the question in a circular manner.

The Russian church is both different and the same, as are any of the traditions of the Orthodox.

Many years ago at the 1963 Pan-Orthodox gathering in Pittsburgh, PA for the CEOYLA conference, the phrase "Unity in Diversity" was popularized. It should be remembered.



That sounds like an overused Human Resources seminar topic.  I get the sentiment, though.
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« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2013, 09:37:01 PM »

I'm being serious when I answer the question in a circular manner.

The Russian church is both different and the same, as are any of the traditions of the Orthodox.

Many years ago at the 1963 Pan-Orthodox gathering in Pittsburgh, PA for the CEOYLA conference, the phrase "Unity in Diversity" was popularized. It should be remembered.



That sounds like an overused Human Resources seminar topic.  I get the sentiment, though.

Hey, it was fifty years ago. I was ten. There were no HR departments, let alone seminars back then. 
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« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2013, 09:46:01 PM »

I'm being serious when I answer the question in a circular manner.

The Russian church is both different and the same, as are any of the traditions of the Orthodox.

Many years ago at the 1963 Pan-Orthodox gathering in Pittsburgh, PA for the CEOYLA conference, the phrase "Unity in Diversity" was popularized. It should be remembered.



That sounds like an overused Human Resources seminar topic.  I get the sentiment, though.

Hey, it was fifty years ago. I was ten. There were no HR departments, let alone seminars back then. 

Ah, to go back to those days of no corporate drivel and legalese.

In the US, anybody can go to any Orthodox parish of whatever jurisdiction and experience the Church.  Yes, the language may be different, as well as certain customs and traditions, but the Church is there.  And that certainly doesn't have to disappear in a united Church.
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« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2013, 10:32:12 PM »

As a recent convert to Orthodox Christianity I have limited knowledge or experience outside my own church and tradition so please excuse the naivete of my question.  I'm just honestly curious...

I wonder how the Russian church seems to those outside it?  (and please don't take me as an example).  When you think of the Russian church, what comes to your mind?  How is it different (if at all) from other Orthodox churches - not liturgically or artistically but the sincerity of our struggle and piety?   What sort of reputation do we have in the Orthodox world?

If anyone is interested in knowing more about the modern Russian church they might consider reading "Everyday Saints" available on Kindle for $9.  It was a huge best seller in Russia (maybe France too) and gets rave reviews on Amazon (65 5-star ratings out of 72).  It's such a good book you don't even have to be Orthodox to love it!


Really, there's a difference? I thought all Orthodox Churches follow the same doctrine, just in their spoken language. How does it differ?
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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2013, 01:14:33 AM »

First noticeable difference in church is the chant, or as some wit put it, the Russian opera. It varies and can be extremely beautiful. And sometimes deacons whose words seem to rise up from the very depth of the earth.

It's not just the deacons who tend to have such voices. I've been in the presence of choirs which had at least one of these gentlemen with voices that shook the earth under one's feet.

Others have suggested that Russians have iron feet on which they stand for hours. But that is a claim probably made by a Westener who had never seen other Orthodox worshippers who equally may stand in church for hours.

Iron feet and iron spines.  Wink


But their old ladies while formidable cannot match the 'sharp' elbows of Greek old ladies. Wink

Russian babushki don't need sharp elbows. Their sheer force of moral authority is enough. A reproving look from a babushka can make even a komissar quake in his boots.  laugh
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« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2013, 01:15:39 AM »

As a recent convert to Orthodox Christianity I have limited knowledge or experience outside my own church and tradition so please excuse the naivete of my question.  I'm just honestly curious...

I wonder how the Russian church seems to those outside it?  (and please don't take me as an example).  When you think of the Russian church, what comes to your mind?  How is it different (if at all) from other Orthodox churches - not liturgically or artistically but the sincerity of our struggle and piety?   What sort of reputation do we have in the Orthodox world?

If anyone is interested in knowing more about the modern Russian church they might consider reading "Everyday Saints" available on Kindle for $9.  It was a huge best seller in Russia (maybe France too) and gets rave reviews on Amazon (65 5-star ratings out of 72).  It's such a good book you don't even have to be Orthodox to love it!


Really, there's a difference? I thought all Orthodox Churches follow the same doctrine, just in their spoken language. How does it differ?

Teachings are the same, but certain customs might differ.
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« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2013, 06:33:14 AM »

Russian babushki don't need sharp elbows. Their sheer force of moral authority is enough. A reproving look from a babushka can make even a komissar quake in his boots.  laugh

Truth, even when you haven't done anything wrong! laugh
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« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2013, 07:37:44 AM »

Russian babushki don't need sharp elbows. Their sheer force of moral authority is enough. A reproving look from a babushka can make even a komissar quake in his boots.  laugh

Truth, even when you haven't done anything wrong! laugh

Doesn't that granny's reproving look and elbowy thing cut across cultures, religions etc? Sort of a global thing? Wink
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« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2013, 07:40:11 AM »

Russian babushki don't need sharp elbows. Their sheer force of moral authority is enough. A reproving look from a babushka can make even a komissar quake in his boots.  laugh

Truth, even when you haven't done anything wrong! laugh

Doesn't that granny's reporting look and elbowy thing cut across cultures, religions etc? Sort of a global thing? Wink

It does, but I've found Russian/Slavic babushki tend to be more formidable than Greek yiayies.  Wink
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« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2013, 07:42:09 AM »

Must be the weather or something. laugh
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« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2013, 08:18:40 AM »




It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

I am puzzled by this statement, having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered. 

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).

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« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2013, 08:24:06 AM »

"very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality"

LOL. Wonder what that would be like. They shall not be stoned?
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« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2013, 08:33:38 AM »

"very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality"

LOL. Wonder what that would be like. They shall not be stoned?
I'm curious about this myself.  Jah, are you saying that they are advocating gay marriage?  Can't say I've heard ANY church promoting that, greek or not. We leave that to the Episcopalians.  laugh
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« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2013, 08:56:33 AM »




It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

I am puzzled by this statement, having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered. 

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).



I respect Jah's point of view, but his is a common refrain from many who think that the "grass is greener" in another pasture. I'm not saying that to be the case with him, for the spiritual journey taken by one person is not the same spiritual journey taken by the next person - even if both are Orthodox.

Unfair generalizations can go both ways, I fear. I have had experiences with ROCOR that are positive and very negative. Back in the day when they were not in communion, many of their local parishioners were overly 'scrupulous', judging those in their former parishes with disdain, being critical of other's piety or customs and so on and so on. This continues even to the present in many places. Today, a fair number of their convert clergy in particular have been officious to the point of being so detached from the world that they defeat any real possibility of a greater outreach or missionary expansion beyond the select few seeking an idealized version of what they think an Orthodox life should be. Compromising between having a secular life, family and job while being a priest, their hearts often are in a monastic mindset. These clergy often ostracize their brother Orthodox clergy as if they were superior by their rigorous devotion to their version of Russian praxis. Sorry if this is harsh, but other's are harsh here in their characterization of other Orthodox communities for their own reasons.

Other ROCOR parishes are not that way at all. Mayfield, PA comes to mind as an example.
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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2013, 11:01:20 AM »

"very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality"

LOL. Wonder what that would be like. They shall not be stoned?

Of course not.  A friend of mine sat in on his teenage son's catechism class and the teacher spoke on the subject.  She started off talking about the mistreatment of homosexuals and cut right to the subject of the mistreatment of blacks in the 1950s, saying that homosexuals are "persecuted" and it is a subject of civil rights similar to that of the treatment of ethnic and racial minorities.  The teacher then had the class read verses from the Old and New Testaments on the subject of homosexuality and went on to emphasize that the New Testament quotes don't come from Christ and that he never said anything against homosexuality, that Christ was more concerned with religious hypocrisy, etc.  When asked if homosexual acts are sinful she did say that that is what the Church is saying but there is a lot of debate about the subject.  She overlooked Church tradition, created a false dichotomy between the Gospel and the Epistles, mentioned that there were some groups of homosexual Orthodox who are making their voice heard, and basically champion the cause for the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.  The director of our catechism classes said at the end that she thought it was a good discussion. 
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« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »

She started off talking about the mistreatment of homosexuals and cut right to the subject of the mistreatment of blacks in the 1950s, saying that homosexuals are "persecuted" and it is a subject of civil rights similar to that of the treatment of ethnic and racial minorities.  The teacher then had the class read verses from the Old and New Testaments on the subject of homosexuality and went on to emphasize that the New Testament quotes don't come from Christ and that he never said anything against homosexuality, that Christ was more concerned with religious hypocrisy, etc.  When asked if homosexual acts are sinful she did say that that is what the Church is saying but there is a lot of debate about the subject.  

True but the 2nd half of the last sentence.
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« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2013, 11:04:56 AM »

"very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality"

LOL. Wonder what that would be like. They shall not be stoned?

Of course not.  A friend of mine sat in on his teenage son's catechism class and the teacher spoke on the subject.  She started off talking about the mistreatment of homosexuals and cut right to the subject of the mistreatment of blacks in the 1950s, saying that homosexuals are "persecuted" and it is a subject of civil rights similar to that of the treatment of ethnic and racial minorities.  The teacher then had the class read verses from the Old and New Testaments on the subject of homosexuality and went on to emphasize that the New Testament quotes don't come from Christ and that he never said anything against homosexuality, that Christ was more concerned with religious hypocrisy, etc.  When asked if homosexual acts are sinful she did say that that is what the Church is saying but there is a lot of debate about the subject.  She overlooked Church tradition, created a false dichotomy between the Gospel and the Epistles, mentioned that there were some groups of homosexual Orthodox who are making their voice heard, and basically champion the cause for the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.  The director of our catechism classes said at the end that she thought it was a good discussion. 

IMO you're reading too much into those comments. I agree with everything you wrote about her comments but I also agree with the Church on the issue. I don't think this is anyhow liberal.
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« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2013, 11:06:32 AM »




It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

I am puzzled by this statement, having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered. 

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).



I respect Jah's point of view, but his is a common refrain from many who think that the "grass is greener" in another pasture.

Of course, my experience is my own, but since I have spent time as a member of Greek and Russian parishes, it is not really a subject of the grass always being greener on the other side.  I loved the ROCOR parish we used to belong to, but we sadly had to move and are now several hundred miles from there.  There is another ROCOR parish about 2 hrs away that we sometimes visit, and it is always a joy to be there.  Yes, I have known ROCOR parishes where there were problems, but these were all very ethnic parishes.  That is not to say that all ethnic parishes are bad.  I have had only excellent experiences in ROCOR mission parishes where a lot of English is used and both native Orthodox and converts are welcome.  
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« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2013, 11:06:44 AM »

"very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality"

LOL. Wonder what that would be like. They shall not be stoned?

Of course not.  A friend of mine sat in on his teenage son's catechism class and the teacher spoke on the subject.  She started off talking about the mistreatment of homosexuals and cut right to the subject of the mistreatment of blacks in the 1950s, saying that homosexuals are "persecuted" and it is a subject of civil rights similar to that of the treatment of ethnic and racial minorities.  The teacher then had the class read verses from the Old and New Testaments on the subject of homosexuality and went on to emphasize that the New Testament quotes don't come from Christ and that he never said anything against homosexuality, that Christ was more concerned with religious hypocrisy, etc.  When asked if homosexual acts are sinful she did say that that is what the Church is saying but there is a lot of debate about the subject.  She overlooked Church tradition, created a false dichotomy between the Gospel and the Epistles, mentioned that there were some groups of homosexual Orthodox who are making their voice heard, and basically champion the cause for the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.  The director of our catechism classes said at the end that she thought it was a good discussion.  
I'll not judge because I wasn't there, but I certainly wish for everyone's sake that your friend perhaps misunderstood.  I hope that sort of teaching is not being promoted within Greek parishes.
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« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2013, 11:08:14 AM »




It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

I am puzzled by this statement, having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered. 

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).



I respect Jah's point of view, but his is a common refrain from many who think that the "grass is greener" in another pasture.

Of course, my experience is my own, but since I have spent time as a member of Greek and Russian parishes, it is not really a subject of the grass always being greener on the other side.  I loved the ROCOR parish we used to belong to, but we sadly had to move and are now several hundred miles from there.  There is another ROCOR parish about 2 hrs away that we sometimes visit, and it is always a joy to be there.  Yes, I have known ROCOR parishes where there were problems, but these were all very ethnic parishes.  That is not to say that all ethnic parishes are bad.  I have had only excellent experiences in ROCOR mission parishes where a lot of English is used and both native Orthodox and converts are welcome. 

Nathan Monk, Fr. Mansbrighe-Wood - ethnic parishes...
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« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2013, 11:09:36 AM »

I know one Finnish church-going Orthodox Christian who said something like "gays are not human beings." Some would probably say disagreeing with this is liberal.
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« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2013, 11:14:36 AM »

I know one Finnish church-going Orthodox Christian who said something like "gays are not human beings." Some would probably say disagreeing with this is liberal.
This cannot be true as all Finns are liberals. #europeanstereotype
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« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2013, 11:16:04 AM »

I know one Finnish church-going Orthodox Christian who said something like "gays are not human beings." Some would probably say disagreeing with this is liberal.

Maybe some would, but that has nothing to do with anything stated in this thread.
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« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2013, 11:17:32 AM »




It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

I am puzzled by this statement, having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered. 

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).



I respect Jah's point of view, but his is a common refrain from many who think that the "grass is greener" in another pasture.

Of course, my experience is my own, but since I have spent time as a member of Greek and Russian parishes, it is not really a subject of the grass always being greener on the other side.  I loved the ROCOR parish we used to belong to, but we sadly had to move and are now several hundred miles from there.  There is another ROCOR parish about 2 hrs away that we sometimes visit, and it is always a joy to be there.  Yes, I have known ROCOR parishes where there were problems, but these were all very ethnic parishes.  That is not to say that all ethnic parishes are bad.  I have had only excellent experiences in ROCOR mission parishes where a lot of English is used and both native Orthodox and converts are welcome. 

Nathan Monk, Fr. Mansbrighe-Wood - ethnic parishes...

Ok, I'll limit my comments to Eastern Rite ROCOR mission parishes.
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« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2013, 11:48:50 AM »




It shares in the "Faith of the Orthodox, the Faith that has established the Universe."  Each of the Holy Orthodox Churches have developed practices over hundreds of years, that are somewhat unique to that church, but those practices do not impact the purity of the faith of the Church of the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).
I am increasingly having doubts about that. They do not seem to teach theosis at all, rather morality and procreation.

Interesting I would love to hear others point of view on this, i.e. if this is a common view by outsiders of the Russian Church.

I am puzzled by this statement, having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered.  

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).



I respect Jah's point of view, but his is a common refrain from many who think that the "grass is greener" in another pasture.

Of course, my experience is my own, but since I have spent time as a member of Greek and Russian parishes, it is not really a subject of the grass always being greener on the other side.  I loved the ROCOR parish we used to belong to, but we sadly had to move and are now several hundred miles from there.  There is another ROCOR parish about 2 hrs away that we sometimes visit, and it is always a joy to be there.  Yes, I have known ROCOR parishes where there were problems, but these were all very ethnic parishes.  That is not to say that all ethnic parishes are bad.  I have had only excellent experiences in ROCOR mission parishes where a lot of English is used and both native Orthodox and converts are welcome.  

I belong to a Greek parish and honestly, I understand what you mean by fashion runway - in a very embarrassing way, I will admit i'm guilty of this too. However, in respectful ways, no fancy stilettos and nothing too short or low cut. But I have to admit, all my life we were 'told' to dress up for church, as in wear something nice but modest looking. And quite frankly, I feel a sign of disrespect of those who chose to come in with jeans and sneakers - even find it very inappropriate for a ten year old to do such thing. The house of God is a place of reverence and it showed be shown. You're supposed to enter clean, physically and spiritually.

As far as topics of homosexuality and such, I cant say I've heard the subject brought up in any fashion. My priest reminds us about Confession. And honestly, I would appreciate if the priests somehow find a way to encourage more than just reminding us during feast days. Though I have gone once thus far, I would want them to somehow make a staple, get me in there somehow. I guess today, we are so sinful of our actions that we feel embarrassed than anything - what if our confession would 'leak' out somehow...that sort of thing.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 11:49:41 AM by Faith2545 » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2013, 09:34:27 PM »

"very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality"

LOL. Wonder what that would be like. They shall not be stoned?

Or following Bob Dylan, "Everybody must get stoned."
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« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2013, 04:51:00 PM »

[...] having belonged to both Russian (ROCOR & OCA) and Greek (GOARCH) parishes.  I have attended many Greek parishes and currently attend one that visiting clergy often praise as being a real gem and beacon of a parish within the Archdiocese.  We are often looked at as a model to follow, a model of success.  Yet, I have a hard time bringing non-Orthodox family and friends there for a number of reasons.  Women dress pretty inappropriately and in a flashy runway style, in Sunday school the teenagers are given a very liberal non-Orthodox view on moral issues like homosexuality (not by a member of the clergy, but the head priest and head of catechism seem indifferent), people are not taught to fast and prepare properly for communion, confession is hardly spoken of and not required, non-fasting food is set out during fasting periods, homilies are rarely on the Scriptures read that day, the saint of the day or event being commemorated is very rarely referred to in an homily unless it is a particularly major feast day, homilies focus more on the importance of being a community and attending regularly than on living an Orthodox lifestyle in between Sundays, and overall the parish is very secularized and worldly.  Theosis is certainly spoken of at least occasionally, but the way there has been made a bit treacherous it seems.

In two English mission parishes I have been a part of in ROCOR, people are taught to keep a prayer rule and encouraged in keeping it, people are taught to keep the fasts, the Scriptures and lives of the saints are always referred to, the men and women dress modestly, women cover their heads, confession is regular, catechumens are prepared well, and the faith is both loved and revered. 

I would recommend an English ROCOR mission any day over a Greek parish because from my experience of ROCOR mission parishes people receive much better spiritual care and much more encouragement to live a pious and God-pleasing lifestyle.  In Greek churches I have belonged to and am familiar with, even if the priest is traditional, both priest and parish have been hijacked by wealthy and/or worldly parish council members and their secularizing agendas.  Again, I say this as a member of a Greek parish who really prefers many aspects of Greek Orthodox tradition over Russian (chant, iconography, etc.).

hmm...  you confirmed my original suspicions completely.    Wink
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