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Author Topic: Answering Catholic apologists  (Read 3430 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2013, 09:55:40 AM »

Sidebar:  This is the best diversion of a thread I have read to date.  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2013, 09:58:52 AM »

Mice were actually quite an improvement over having to type all this stuff or using a shell named dos. I know it will strike some as odd that they could fit a shell inside the computer, but computers were larger in those days.
First mice and now turtle-computers?  Were the turtle computers mobile even if a bit slow?  Truly the ancient world must have been a sight to behold.

Dual natures?  Hypostatic union?  Was it a turtle that became computer or a computer that became turtle?  Did the turtle essence become subsumed to the computer nature, or vice versa?  A Council must be summoned!
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« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2013, 10:04:19 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2013, 10:26:22 AM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided
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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2013, 10:31:12 AM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2013, 11:33:11 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

I don't know him so I wouldn't necessarily perceive that
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2013, 11:36:31 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

I don't know him so I wouldn't necessarily perceive that
It is just something I got from the context of the post. I'm sure he will stop by to clarify.  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2013, 11:47:33 AM »

I have a theory that the saying "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" is itself a sarcastic statement made to embarrass people who don't understand that it is sarcasm and quote it as though it's meant to be taken literally. Very mean!  police
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2013, 11:52:25 AM »

I have a theory that the saying "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" is itself a sarcastic statement made to embarrass people who don't understand that it is sarcasm and quote it as though it's meant to be taken literally. Very mean!  police
Further down the rabbit hole we go!  laugh
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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2013, 12:12:32 PM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

That's what I was guessing, when I read Nephi's post.
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2013, 12:16:39 PM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

Yes sir. Cool
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2013, 12:17:18 PM »

I have a theory that the saying "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" is itself a sarcastic statement made to embarrass people who don't understand that it is sarcasm and quote it as though it's meant to be taken literally. Very mean!  police

Literalism?  For shame!  This only works if sarcasm is literally a wit which is (in the physical realm) at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2013, 12:19:41 PM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police

And interestingly it seems that Blessed is a particularly unique title of affection for St. Augustine. Considering the charge that we often completely overlook him and his writings (including the good), I wonder how he came to be referred to as "Blessed Augustine" among all the other saints.
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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2013, 01:19:31 PM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police

And interestingly it seems that Blessed is a particularly unique title of affection for St. Augustine. Considering the charge that we often completely overlook him and his writings (including the good), I wonder how he came to be referred to as "Blessed Augustine" among all the other saints.
I have wondered this myself.
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2013, 02:20:33 PM »

No need to provide answers to Catholic apologists. The Catholics who have the answers are broke and had to fire everybody. They can't respond without another $300,000.
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2013, 02:20:59 PM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police

And interestingly it seems that Blessed is a particularly unique title of affection for St. Augustine. Considering the charge that we often completely overlook him and his writings (including the good), I wonder how he came to be referred to as "Blessed Augustine" among all the other saints.
I have wondered this myself.

One question:  don't Orthodox use the term "Blessed" for people that have not quite been canonized as saints, as the Roman Catholics do?
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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2013, 02:25:06 PM »


One question:  don't Orthodox use the term "Blessed" for people that have not quite been canonized as saints, as the Roman Catholics do?
Nope.

It's a descriptor, not a title, e.g. "the blessed Mother of God."
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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »

No need to provide answers to Catholic apologists. The Catholics who have the answers are broke and had to fire everybody. They can't respond without another $300,000.

I got an email about that, which I found very confusing. "We fired 945 people but still need a truckload of money to make ends meet. Send us money!"  Huh
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« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »


One question:  don't Orthodox use the term "Blessed" for people that have not quite been canonized as saints, as the Roman Catholics do?
Nope.

It's a descriptor, not a title, e.g. "the blessed Mother of God."

All right, that makes more sense.  I have seen several icons of Fr. Seraphim Rose floating around and it will say "Blessed Seraphim of Platina"  and I know he hasn't been glorified a saint by any synod.  I know the RC canonization process will have those that have been beatified called "Blessed."
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« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2013, 02:51:39 PM »

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« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2013, 02:56:06 PM »

I should have realized.  I stand next to her at Liturgy all the time.
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« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2013, 03:12:35 PM »

No need to provide answers to Catholic apologists. The Catholics who have the answers are broke and had to fire everybody. They can't respond without another $300,000.

Some people at CAF got dramatic salary cuts.

Thank goodness I wasn't one them!
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« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2013, 08:01:53 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.
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« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2013, 08:29:40 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

Meh about the first one.  The endless contraception argument to me is just kind of wasting breath.

The second one makes me lol.  What does that even mean? I could make the same argument about all sorts of ridiculous things.  Deism has the ability to contain Christianity, but Christianity cannot contain Deism. My wife's jewelry box can contain her jewelry, but her jewelry cannot contain the jewelry box.  Worst argument ever.
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« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2013, 08:43:27 PM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2013, 08:52:57 PM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?

That would be my point, too. It's not like you can just pick any old Orthodox bishop, see if they were ever inconsistent in their writings, and then use that to prove that the Orthodox Faith has changed.
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« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2013, 08:55:47 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

The second one makes me lol.  What does that even mean? I could make the same argument about all sorts of ridiculous things.  Deism has the ability to contain Christianity, but Christianity cannot contain Deism. My wife's jewelry box can contain her jewelry, but her jewelry cannot contain the jewelry box.  Worst argument ever.

The person then said that he didn't want to get into why this was so because it might "confuse" people.

It's an asinine claim to make, for sure. Priding one's own approach by reducing the other approach to not even a complementary one, but a subservient one.
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« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2013, 08:58:45 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

The second one makes me lol.  What does that even mean? I could make the same argument about all sorts of ridiculous things.  Deism has the ability to contain Christianity, but Christianity cannot contain Deism. My wife's jewelry box can contain her jewelry, but her jewelry cannot contain the jewelry box.  Worst argument ever.

The person then said that he didn't want to get into why this was so because it might "confuse" people.

It's an asinine claim to make, for sure. Priding one's own approach by reducing the other approach to not even a complementary one, but a subservient one.
Well, that's fun.  I am so blue I'm greener than purple.  I don't want to get into why this is because it might confuse people.
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« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2013, 09:45:36 PM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.






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« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2013, 10:02:57 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!
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« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2013, 10:20:28 PM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard that one before. (I think I would remember something that weird.) I have heard the argument that Catholicism has "both lungs", whereas Orthodoxy has only one.
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« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2013, 11:07:09 PM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?

Since every zealous convert reads his books and almost nothing else and then go on boards like oc.net and show off what they know and what (they think) cradles don't.
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« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2013, 10:02:49 AM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?

Since every zealous convert reads his books and almost nothing else and then go on boards like oc.net and show off what they know and what (they think) cradles don't.

Smiley

The only edition of The Orthodox Church that I've read was the first, with the "conservative" position on contraception.  I wonder how much of the perceived change between that and subsequent editions had to do with his subsequent entrance into ordained ministry.  The copy I read was written by "Timothy Ware", a convert to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  The copy I own for my library lists, as author, Kallistos (Timothy) Ware or Metropolitan Kallistos Ware (I forget which), by then a Greek bishop.  Reading one's way into the Church is one thing, but actually living within the Church and working with people is another experience entirely.  There need not be a conflict between the two, but only a more comprehensive understanding of the whole.   
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« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2013, 10:04:41 AM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard that one before. (I think I would remember something that weird.) I have heard the argument that Catholicism has "both lungs", whereas Orthodoxy has only one.

Well, that may explain why I get exhausted at times..... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2013, 10:07:31 AM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Yeah, me too. Get behind me......lets go...
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« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2013, 10:56:56 AM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard that one before. (I think I would remember something that weird.) I have heard the argument that Catholicism has "both lungs", whereas Orthodoxy has only one.

Well, that may explain why I get exhausted at times..... Roll Eyes

Hey don't make me come over there!  laugh
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« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2013, 10:57:49 AM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police
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« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2013, 11:35:36 AM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police

Or the Romaine Orthodox:

"Lettuce pray to the Lord..."
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« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2013, 11:58:53 AM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police

Or the Romaine Orthodox:

"Lettuce pray to the Lord..."

It has more Mystique that way.
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« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2013, 12:00:49 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

This is silly. Throughout history there have been Orthodox theologians who have high regard for St. Thomas Aquinas, and I have met some on this very forum who hold similar views.

But even more importantly, western thought is heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, which comes from... wait for it... the East.

Who was the silly-willy who claimed that the East cannot contain western thought?
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« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2013, 12:17:47 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!
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« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!


I've seen you post this bishop's photo several times, but I guess I was inactive when you explained who it was.  Who is this Pope?  Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!


I've seen you post this bishop's photo several times, but I guess I was inactive when you explained who it was.  Who is this Pope?  Smiley
His Grace Bishop Silouan

"Following the decision of the Extraordinary Meeting of the Italian clergy to establish the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Gavedo, 8 May 2007), approved by the Metropolitan Assembly (Limours, 1 June 2007) and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church (Bucharest, June 21, 2007 ) was chosen as the sole candidate by the electoral college Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Paris, 19 February 2008), and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church elected the first bishop of Italy (Bucharest, March 5, 2008). He was enthroned by Metropolitan Joseph Lucca, on Thursday 8 May 2008."

More info:  http://www.bisericaortodoxafirenze.com/
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« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2013, 01:45:42 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!


I've seen you post this bishop's photo several times, but I guess I was inactive when you explained who it was.  Who is this Pope?  Smiley
His Grace Bishop Silouan

"Following the decision of the Extraordinary Meeting of the Italian clergy to establish the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Gavedo, 8 May 2007), approved by the Metropolitan Assembly (Limours, 1 June 2007) and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church (Bucharest, June 21, 2007 ) was chosen as the sole candidate by the electoral college Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Paris, 19 February 2008), and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church elected the first bishop of Italy (Bucharest, March 5, 2008). He was enthroned by Metropolitan Joseph Lucca, on Thursday 8 May 2008."

More info:  http://www.bisericaortodoxafirenze.com/
I know the Romanians call priests "Popa" but I'm not sure if they call bishops that.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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