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Author Topic: Answering Catholic apologists  (Read 3263 times) Average Rating: 0
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lovesupreme
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« on: August 22, 2013, 10:34:38 PM »

Below is a list of common denunciations that I've heard contemporary Catholic apologists fling at the Orthodox Church. Most of us have encountered these points before, but I'm curious about the succinct answers one could offer if presented with these. Feel free to address one or more; this is more of an interesting topic to me than anything else (I'm pretty sure all Catholic apologists live in EWTN anyway).

------

1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.

2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.

3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.

4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.

5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.

6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.

7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).

8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.

9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.

10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?

11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 10:35:14 PM by lovesupreme » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 10:36:30 PM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 10:37:43 PM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Did the Holy Spirit just play the ultimate joke on me?  Embarrassed
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 10:44:31 PM »

My succinct answers.
Below is a list of common denunciations that I've heard contemporary Catholic apologists fling at the Orthodox Church. Most of us have encountered these points before, but I'm curious about the succinct answers one could offer if presented with these. Feel free to address one or more; this is more of an interesting topic to me than anything else (I'm pretty sure all Catholic apologists live in EWTN anyway).

------

1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.
Church calls a council, not a man
2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.
That isn't the definition of Orthodox
3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.
Prove that is the cause and not the long list of doctrinal issues that we usually bring up.
4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.
Let us count the number of ecumenical councils in Rome...Oh wait...
5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.
Like the Patriarch of Antioch where Peter was the first bishop?
6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.
I thought we were a haven of ethnic pride, which is it? Malcontent converts or crazy ethnics? Make up your mind!
7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).
Perhaps it should have stayed in seed form
8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.
Like nullifications to every Tom, Dick and Harry?
9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.
This is probably true, but 1,000 years of getting stepped on does have a tendency to breed suspicion.
10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?
And yet we all commune together.  It is amazing how that works.
11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.
Let us not get into the wide variations of teachings because the Catholics can beat just about everyone on that hands down...

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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2013, 10:50:23 PM »

Below is a list of common denunciations that I've heard contemporary Catholic apologists fling at the Orthodox Church. Most of us have encountered these points before, but I'm curious about the succinct answers one could offer if presented with these. Feel free to address one or more; this is more of an interesting topic to me than anything else (I'm pretty sure all Catholic apologists live in EWTN anyway).


The worst Catholic Apologists come from Catholic Answers. Oh vey.
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 10:54:35 PM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Did the Holy Spirit just play the ultimate joke on me?  Embarrassed

יהודי נודד


Quote from: Ps. 84:3-4
גַּם־צִפּוֹר מָצְאָה בַיִת וּדְרוֹר קֵן לָהּ אֲשֶׁר־שָׁתָה אֶפְרֹחֶיהָ אֶת־מִזְבְּחוֹתֶיךָ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת מַלְכִּי וֵאלֹהָי׃

אַשְׁרֵי יוֹשְׁבֵי בֵיתֶךָ
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 10:55:11 PM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Did the Holy Spirit just play the ultimate joke on me?  Embarrassed

יהודי נודד


Quote from: Ps. 84:3-4
גַּם־צִפּוֹר מָצְאָה בַיִת וּדְרוֹר קֵן לָהּ אֲשֶׁר־שָׁתָה אֶפְרֹחֶיהָ אֶת־מִזְבְּחוֹתֶיךָ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת מַלְכִּי וֵאלֹהָי׃

אַשְׁרֵי יוֹשְׁבֵי בֵיתֶךָ


What the...?  Huh
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 10:57:49 PM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Did the Holy Spirit just play the ultimate joke on me?  Embarrassed

יהודי נודד


Quote from: Ps. 84:3-4
גַּם־צִפּוֹר מָצְאָה בַיִת וּדְרוֹר קֵן לָהּ אֲשֶׁר־שָׁתָה אֶפְרֹחֶיהָ אֶת־מִזְבְּחוֹתֶיךָ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת מַלְכִּי וֵאלֹהָי׃

אַשְׁרֵי יוֹשְׁבֵי בֵיתֶךָ

Impressive.  You have my approval.
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 11:02:08 PM »

Long posts aren't read by anyone, and short posts can be dismissed out of hand as not providing enough details or evidence, or overgeneralizing/oversimplifying. But you asked for succinct, so I will try to go that route.  Cool

1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.

What issues are contemporary, exactly? The ones I see bandied about (abortion, contraception, divorce, homosexuality) are issues that have been discussed and dealt with for the entire life of the Church. As for ecumenical councils, I give some thoughts in  reply #40 here. Perhaps I'll just leave it at: councils can be called that deal with things, what label we attach to it (pan-Orthodox, General, Ecumenical, etc.) is of trivial importance compared to the main issue, which is how the Council is received (or rejected).

Quote
2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.

Or, Catholics can't call themselves Catholics because they aren't in union with the Orthodox. I don't think either is the case, just saying that these types of statements go both ways, but generally don't amount to much.

Quote
3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.

Almost certainly some are. Almost certainly some aren't. Almost certainly for some it is a factor. Almost certainly for some it is not. The same can be said of theology, politics, nationalism, culture, and ten other things. And not just about the Orthodox--it's a human thing, not an Orthodox or Catholic thing.

Quote
4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.

Sometimes they did. Sometimes they didn't like what Rome would say and they'd ignore them, or condemn them, or coerce them. Sometimes they appealed to Constantinople; there's a canon from a Ecumenical Council which gives eastern Christians that right. But this is besides the point. The argument might be better stated: When Rome was Orthodox the Orthodox went to Rome for support. Well duh.

Quote
5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.

So much could be said here. I'll just leave it at this: I was just reading today about how the Latin theologians in the 7th to 9th centuries usually saw Peter as the rock in polemical literature, but almost never in exegetical literature. Interesting, that. Things are never as clear as the apologists would have us believe. (that goes for my apologetical slant on things in the link I gave above).

Quote
6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.

See my answer to #3 for what I'd say here as well. There are all sorts of people with all sorts of reasons in all sorts of groups at all times in all places.

Quote
7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).

Maybe. It is debatable what this means, whether it is permissible, whether these are good developments even if we allow for the concept in general, etc. But this is an argument much more helpful for Catholics trying to solidify their faith, and not really for convincing most Orthodox IMO.

Quote
8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.

St. Gregory the Theologian allowed divorce in the 4th century. In fact he gave an oration in front of all the bishops and political types saying so. Didn't know ecumenism was so old. As for the other thing, meh. I'm not going to get into a contraception debate again. Just read the Fathers.

Quote
9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.

Some are. Some aren't... etc. etc.  Certainly there does seem to be a tendency of Orthodox to be more hesitant and cautious. For better or worse.

Quote
10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?

Open up the Bible and see Paul's epistles written to the Church at Corinth, the Church at Ephesus, etc. Where was the unity? Can't there be both unity and diversity? Also, I see ethnic heritage stuff attached to Catholicism all the time here in western PA. And you can find it in Catholicism as well, if on a much smaller scale and less overt.

Quote
11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.

Again, so many ways to go here, so I'll just share something from my own experience: I had a Catholic priest tell me once that even though I was chrismated Orthodox, that I would have to be confirmed if I wanted to join the Catholic Church, which I don't believe is the standard practice these days. He was a fairly old priest, perhaps from an era when they were less hospitable to the Orthodox? Oops, sorry, didn't mean to bring up the fact that the open arms is a fairly ecumenical and modernistic thing.  Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 11:08:00 PM »

I heard a new one the other day.

When questioned by Jonh Baptist followers He said "Look, the blind see, the paralytics walk". Miracles are the sign of Christ. Only the Catholic Church puts its miracles under severe scrutiny to prove they have happened. So it's the only place you can be sure He is.
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 11:09:10 PM »

Thanks, Trisagion. Here are my (predicted) responses:

My succinct answers.
1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.
Church calls a council, not a man
How does the Church call a council without someone to lead it? I'd like to see evidence of an ecumenical council held without the Pope.
2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.
That isn't the definition of Orthodox
Orthodox means adhering to all doctrines of the Church that Christ established; you reject the Petrine See, and you are outside the Church. How then, can you be truly Orthodox?
3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.
Prove that is the cause and not the long list of doctrinal issues that we usually bring up.
All these issues have been flattened out by recent discussions. For instance, we've reached a consensus that the "fillioque" is not heretical, and that purgatory is just a way of explaining the purgation process that all Orthodox believe but have not dogmatized. I still assert that, above all else, the Orthodox are holding onto their national identities instead of seeking the True Faith!
4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.
Let us count the number of ecumenical councils in Rome...Oh wait...
I meant the bishop of Rome. He presided over the ecumenical councils; his primacy was even cemented at the Council of Chalcedon.
5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.
Like the Patriarch of Antioch where Peter was the first bishop?
Right, but Peter moved around and he died in Rome, so that's where his proper line began. Also, Rome's primacy was established at Chalcedon.
6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.
I thought we were a haven of ethnic pride, which is it? Malcontent converts or crazy ethnics? Make up your mind!
You're both. Most Orthodox are ethnic groups who are too proud to join Rome, but recently we've seen a vocal crowd of apologists coming from the Protestant camps. These are the people with the clear hatred of Rome, who bring their Protestant prejudices with them to Orthodoxy.
7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).
Perhaps it should have stayed in seed form
What do you mean? Christ promised that he would always be with us, and that he would send a Comforter. Did you just expect things to stop at Pentecost? No, we would have to wait, just like Christ said.
8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.
Like nullifications to every Tom, Dick and Harry?
Do you understand that an annulment is a pronouncement that a marriage was never sacramentally valid to begin with? It's completely different than a divorce. And you didn't address my point; why have the Orthodox gone against the teachings of Christ and His Church by allowing contraception (bannned by the Fathers) and divorce (banned by Christ Himself)?
9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.
This is probably true, but 1,000 years of getting stepped on does have a tendency to breed suspicion.
We've done more than enough to show that we changed! We even gave back your sacked icons to you! We've done everything and yet you purposefully scorn us. This is a new age, and you can't get stuck in this medieval way of thinking.
10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?
And yet we all commune together.  It is amazing how that works.
Well yeah, but which one am I supposed to go to? Who holds the authority?
11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.
Let us not get into the wide variations of teachings because the Catholics can beat just about everyone on that hands down...
Uh, have you read the Catechism? Everything that Catholics must know is contained there. It has the seal of the Holy See, so we know it's authoritative. Anyone teaching something else is teaching their own views and not those of the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 11:18:05 PM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Did the Holy Spirit just play the ultimate joke on me?  Embarrassed

יהודי נודד


Quote from: Ps. 84:3-4
גַּם־צִפּוֹר מָצְאָה בַיִת וּדְרוֹר קֵן לָהּ אֲשֶׁר־שָׁתָה אֶפְרֹחֶיהָ אֶת־מִזְבְּחוֹתֶיךָ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת מַלְכִּי וֵאלֹהָי׃

אַשְׁרֵי יוֹשְׁבֵי בֵיתֶךָ


This kind of haunted me because in my Orthodox Jewish days I would read that psalm...
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 11:26:48 PM »

Quote
1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.

2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.

3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.

4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.

5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.

6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.

7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).

8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.

9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.

10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?

11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.




























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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 11:28:19 PM »

Ah yes, the good ol' baby approach. Too bad we don't have any around, what with out frequent contraception use!
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 11:33:47 PM »

hahaha
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 11:34:24 PM »

I had to go bold again.

Thanks, Trisagion. Here are my (predicted) responses:

My succinct answers.
1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.
Church calls a council, not a man
How does the Church call a council without someone to lead it? I'd like to see evidence of an ecumenical council held without the Pope.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Pope attended most if any of the ecumenical counsels
2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.
That isn't the definition of Orthodox
Orthodox means adhering to all doctrines of the Church that Christ established; you reject the Petrine See, and you are outside the Church. How then, can you be truly Orthodox?
We view the Rock spoken of in Scripture in accordance with the more patristic understanding of it.  [Insert the standard patristic quotes on the matter here]
3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.
Prove that is the cause and not the long list of doctrinal issues that we usually bring up.
All these issues have been flattened out by recent discussions. For instance, we've reached a consensus that the "fillioque" is not heretical, and that purgatory is just a way of explaining the purgation process that all Orthodox believe but have not dogmatized. I still assert that, above all else, the Orthodox are holding onto their national identities instead of seeking the True Faith!
You have not relented on the Papal dogmas which continue to be a major hinderance and I would dispute the full characterization of the issues you mentioned above.
4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.
Let us count the number of ecumenical councils in Rome...Oh wait...
I meant the bishop of Rome. He presided over the ecumenical councils; his primacy was even cemented at the Council of Chalcedon.
First among equals, not ruler over all other bishops. It is a position of honor.
5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.
Like the Patriarch of Antioch where Peter was the first bishop?
Right, but Peter moved around and he died in Rome, so that's where his proper line began. Also, Rome's primacy was established at Chalcedon.
Many patristic writings refer this falling to the Apostles collectively and not a Petrine exclusive complete with its own exclusive succession.
6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.
I thought we were a haven of ethnic pride, which is it? Malcontent converts or crazy ethnics? Make up your mind!
You're both. Most Orthodox are ethnic groups who are too proud to join Rome, but recently we've seen a vocal crowd of apologists coming from the Protestant camps. These are the people with the clear hatred of Rome, who bring their Protestant prejudices with them to Orthodoxy.
Perhaps, but that is no different than saying the Catholic church is comprised of disaffected Espicopalians and Hispanics with weird syncretic beliefs.  There are always going to be oddball elements of any organization, but that doesn't mean the organization is wrong.
7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).
Perhaps it should have stayed in seed form
What do you mean? Christ promised that he would always be with us, and that he would send a Comforter. Did you just expect things to stop at Pentecost? No, we would have to wait, just like Christ said.
That still doesn't mean we can make up doctrines that have no basis in patristic teachings. If there are early indications of the sinlessness of the Theotokos or that the Church will not fail, that doesn't give us the right to extrapolate those teachings into PI and IC
8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.
Like nullifications to every Tom, Dick and Harry?
Do you understand that an annulment is a pronouncement that a marriage was never sacramentally valid to begin with? It's completely different than a divorce. And you didn't address my point; why have the Orthodox gone against the teachings of Christ and His Church by allowing contraception (bannned by the Fathers) and divorce (banned by Christ Himself)?
Christ also said that the teaching is given to he who can accept it.  There are ideals which we should strive for, but if we cannot achieve them, Christ allows economy through grace.
9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.
This is probably true, but 1,000 years of getting stepped on does have a tendency to breed suspicion.
We've done more than enough to show that we changed! We even gave back your sacked icons to you! We've done everything and yet you purposefully scorn us. This is a new age, and you can't get stuck in this medieval way of thinking.
We are holding fast the to the traditions that have been passed down through the ages.  We can't just give those up because suddenly you want to hang out and be friends. Even your own Popes acknowledge that the Orthodox hold closer to the ancient liturgies than the Catholic Church does.
10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?
And yet we all commune together.  It is amazing how that works.
Well yeah, but which one am I supposed to go to? Who holds the authority?
Close your eyes and put your finger down,  any one will do.
11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.
Let us not get into the wide variations of teachings because the Catholics can beat just about everyone on that hands down...
Uh, have you read the Catechism? Everything that Catholics must know is contained there. It has the seal of the Holy See, so we know it's authoritative. Anyone teaching something else is teaching their own views and not those of the Roman Catholic Church.
I don't recall the Catholic Catechims addressing when someone can be baptized or chrismated.  Those are canonical laws.  We them too, but how a certain jurisdiction accepts someone is not as important as the fact that the do accept them.  Look at the differences in your own rites and you will see and equally bewildering array of customs.
Man, writing succinctly is not easy.  I just want to expound!
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 11:45:10 PM »

The request to be succinct was really so that people didn't feel compelled to write whole tomes on these tired topics. If you want to expound one some points, go for it.
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 11:46:53 PM »

The request to be succinct was really so that people didn't feel compelled to write whole tomes on these tired topics. If you want to expound one some points, go for it.

I'll stick by what I have written for now.  I need to work on my brevity as I enjoy waxing eloquent all too often.  Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2013, 11:47:55 PM »

Ah yes, the good ol' baby approach. Too bad we don't have any around, what with out frequent contraception use!

Bah! You should visit our parish sometime. We're having a baby boom! The grown-ups will soon be outnumbered at Divine Liturgies on Sundays. Only God knows how many buckets of water I've carried on Sabbaths for them to be baptized these past few years... 
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 11:50:17 PM »

Below is a list of common denunciations that I've heard contemporary Catholic apologists fling at the Orthodox Church. Most of us have encountered these points before, but I'm curious about the succinct answers one could offer if presented with these. Feel free to address one or more; this is more of an interesting topic to me than anything else (I'm pretty sure all Catholic apologists live in EWTN anyway).

------

1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.
We have called several councils since 1054 (e.g. the Synod of Jerusalem, the Council of Constantinople 1593 (confirmed the elevation of the Moscow Patriarchate).

If Vatican II is an example of "settling contemporary issues," I'm not impressed.

A good number (most?) of the "Ecumenical Councils" their Supreme Pontiff has called have were to figure out who was "the real pope"and to assert his powers: the council of Florence is actually the council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence, the pope convening the council finding himself deposed at Basel so he opened a rival council in Ferrara, and then moved it to Florence gain the East in support of its rivalry against Basel and its pope.

We shouldn't be ashamed that we have gotten out act together, while the Vatican has been so mired in schisms and heresies that it must continually call councils to deal with them.

2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.
The Fathers of the Council of Constantinople, who set their seal on the Creed, were not in "true union" at the time with Old Rome either.

3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.
Latin is an ethnicity.

4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.
That worked so well with Pope Honorius.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council was held over the objection of Rome, whose pontiff was stricken from the diptychs.

5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.
we are.


6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.
St. Mark of Ephesus wasn't an "anti-Roman Protestant convert."  And "anti-Roman Protestant converts" are in short supply in the largest Orthodox Church-the Patriarchate of Moscow.

7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).
According to the Gospel tares are always with the Church in seed form.

8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.
Corban.  Humanae Vitae does not and cannot cite any patristics for its argument.

And before Henry VIII couldn't get his "anullment" (the corban of divorce) from the prisoner of his estranged wife's nephew, he complained about the "shameless sentence from Rome" his aunt got for the same purpose.

Is hypocrisy, duplicity and denial a firm stand on moral issues?

9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.
"Come into my parlor" said the spider to the fly.

10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?
Go to an Orthodox Church and find out.  I've seen it on four continents.

11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.
So does the Vatican's flock. Some use Novus Ordo and some use Extraordinary Form.

Despite all the Vatican's drive for uniformity, consistency isn't its strong point.
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »

1. The Orthodox Church can't settle any contemporary issues; they can't call an ecumenical council without a leader.

In addition to Trisagion's excellent point, not every contemporary issue requires and ecumenical council to address it in the first place. Local/regional councils can deal with problems, too. It is a particularly Roman Catholic conceit to think that some final earthly authority need to be aroused in order for anyone to get anything done, but that has never been the case.

Quote
2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.

We can call ourselves Orthodox because we practice the correct/straight worship and believe in the true Christian doctrine as given to us by our fathers the Apostles and their disciples. We live it every day. That is what makes us Orthodox, not corporeal unity with any one particular church.

Quote
3. The Orthodox Church is resisting union with Rome because of ethnic pride.

Thanks to the existence of the Maronites, Italo-Albanians, and the various Rome-affiliated churches that came from subsections of the Nestorian church, there are actually more ethnically/culturally-aligned churches in the Roman communion than there are in either the EO or OO communions. Generally people who make this claim against the Orthodox have not examined their own communion closely enough to see if they might in fact be throwing stones in the proverbial glass house (which they certainly are, if they argue in this manner).

Quote
4. The pre-schism Eastern churches would always go to Rome to settle issues.

Nope. Nobody waited around for Rome to pronounce final judgment upon the canons of Constantinople to accept all of them, even as Rome continued to dissent from them. Neither could Rome be counted upon to codify Byzantine canon law at Trullo. Rome was likewise not appealed to in the fight against monothelitism, as it had been accepted by their own Pope, the disgraced Honorius who was anathematized by name in a Chalcedonian ecumenical council quite some time before the Great Schism.

Quote
5. Christ established a man, Peter, to be the Rock, and we must be loyal to his successors.

We are, whether that means being loyal to Patriarch John X (Yazigi) or HH Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas. Mirroring the above situation regarding "ethnic pride", the Roman Catholics have three Patriarchs connected to this See (one for the Melkites, another for the Maronites, and still another for the Syriac Catholics), so perhaps they should look into their own situation before condemn us.

Quote
6. The Orthodox Church has been infiltrated with anti-Roman Protestant converts; many of these converts would have joined us if they could get over their biases. As it is, the Orthodox Church is a safe haven for insincere dissenters.

No doubt this might be true in some cases, but it strikes me as disingenuous, as though those converts by rights should be the "property" of Rome by virtue of the fact that they are Westerners and Rome is the Western apostolic see. If Rome put 1/10th of the energy it puts into bad apologetics like this into restoring the reverence that was once present in its liturgies, conforming itself to true apostolic doctrine and not endless "development of doctrine", etc., this particular objection would vanish entirely (much to the delight of both Catholics and Orthodox, I'm sure), and then nobody would have to pretend to be able to read converts minds. (Incidentally, this kind of thinking also leaves out the many converts from RC-ism to Orthodoxy, such as myself...we are certainly not anti-Roman Protestants, no matter how much some RCs like to comfort themselves by painting us as such!)

Quote
7. Doctrines such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate conception were always with the Church in "seed" form; only later did they develop into formal doctrines (see Cardinal Newman).

Lots of things that came to be rejected by the Church can be traced back to ancient times. That doesn't make them right. The development of these rejected doctrines betrays their novelty, even if looking only at them with regard to the Western tradition itself (in other words, you don't even need to bring the Orthodox into it). No less formidable Roman Catholic saints than Bonaventure and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, for instance, and it is likewise not a secret that catechisms which were published prior to Vatican I, which bore imprimaturs, openly denied Papal Infalliblity (see for instance, Keenan's catechism published in the 1850s, which calls the idea that the Roman Pope is infallible a "Protestant invention").

Quote
8. The Orthodox Church has given into ecumenical pressures and allowed divorce and contraception. Only the Catholic Church stands firm on these important moral issues.

They have both by other names (annulments, NFP). Whatever happened to "Let your yes be yes, and your no be no"?

Quote
9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.

Orthodox and Catholics just have very different ideas of what union must consist of. No doubt some could be nicer individuals on both sides, but we are separated for solid doctrinal reasons (i.e., we cannot accept your doctrines for the sake of union with Rome anymore than you can disclaim them for the sake of union with the Orthodox Church), not because of personal vendettas or whatever.

Quote
10. Open up a phone book and look at all the Orthodox churches! Russian, Greek, Ukranian. Where's the unity?

This is just point 3 in snarkier language, isn't it? We could say the same: "Look at the Maronite, Ruthenian, Melkite, Syro-Malabar, etc. Catholic churches! Where's the unity?" Ho hum.

Quote
11. The Orthodox are inconsistent in their teachings. Some baptize non-Orthodox converts, others don't. Some use an Old Calendar, some use a New Calendar.

Economia and sticking to the guidelines given by their respective synods on how to receive converts is not inconsistency. The Church has always taken a differing approach depending on a person's background, in recognition of the fact that a "one-size-fits-all" rule does not work.

I guess these are not such succinct answers (sorry; as an ex-RC I've dealt with this sort of thing often), but they're what I would say (and have said), or at least keep in mind when evaluating RC apologetics.
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2013, 11:50:53 PM »

Ah yes, the good ol' baby approach. Too bad we don't have any around, what with out frequent contraception use!

Bah! You should visit our parish sometime. We're having a baby boom! The grown-ups will soon be outnumbered at Divine Liturgies on Sundays. Only God knows how many buckets of water I've carried on Sabbaths for them to be baptized these past few years... 

LOL. You forgot that I'm Orthodox. I don't need to visit your parish to witness the fruitfulness of young Orthodox couples. Cool
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2013, 11:59:46 PM »

Ah yes, the good ol' baby approach. Too bad we don't have any around, what with out frequent contraception use!

Bah! You should visit our parish sometime. We're having a baby boom! The grown-ups will soon be outnumbered at Divine Liturgies on Sundays. Only God knows how many buckets of water I've carried on Sabbaths for them to be baptized these past few years... 

LOL. You forgot that I'm Orthodox. I don't need to visit your parish to witness the fruitfulness of young Orthodox couples. Cool

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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2013, 12:01:47 AM »

Thanks dzheremi. Regarding your points about non-Roman Rites mirroring the ethnic makeup of the Orthodox Church, I think that the apologist would explain that all those groups offer a "rich Eastern tradition" completely within the See of Peter. Implying that they're immune to the ethnic squabbles and nationalism of their Orthodox cousins, because they can turn to the Pope to settle all their problems.

The "phone book" point is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, but I've heard it many times.
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2013, 12:04:36 AM »

You all having fun?  Cheesy
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2013, 12:05:26 AM »

You all having fun?  Cheesy

We know you wouldn't pull any of this, man. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2013, 12:19:20 AM »

You all having fun?  Cheesy

You should post an Orthodox apologist version in the Catholic forum--I'd love to give it a shot!  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2013, 12:32:46 AM »

Orthodox apologist:

1. We have a rich liturgy in the Orthodox Church. All you Catholics have are clown masses!

2. I don't trust any bishop without a beard.
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2013, 01:35:16 AM »

Orthodox apologist:

1. We have a rich liturgy in the Orthodox Church. All you Catholics have are clown masses!

2. I don't trust any bishop without a beard.

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

4. Catholic teaching on original sin is wrong because it teaches inherited guilt (oh, and any name besides "ancestral sin" is instant-heresy).

5. We have the FULL Bible, and while Catholics have more than Protestants their Bible is still so deficient as to be worthless.

6. Not only do we have the full Bible, but we only use the Septuagint - the Old Testament infallibly preserved like the writing of the Gospels themselves. Catholics show their departure from Christianity by using the Hebrew and focusing on Jewish studies to understand it.

7. Catholicism is the cause of most of the modern world's evils by causing the Protestant Reformation, and all of the ideologies that came with it - leading directly to Hitler and Stalin themselves!

8. Catholicism is also the blight on Christianity that's committed the most atrocities, whereas the Eastern Churches have preserved, without stain of corruption, the sanctity of the Church in non-violence.

9. We never opposed science. Enjoy your anti-spherical earth popes.
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2013, 07:41:32 AM »

Quote
2. The Orthodox Church can't call themselves "Orthodox" because they lack true union with Rome.

Or, Catholics can't call themselves Catholics because they aren't in union with the Orthodox. I don't think either is the case, just saying that these types of statements go both ways, but generally don't amount to much.

Not meaning to rehash the whole issue of the term "Catholic" ... but if you Orthodox are to be called "Catholic", then what does that mean for the term "Eastern Catholic"?

I mean, if you're "Catholic" and you're "Eastern", wouldn't that make you "Eastern Catholic"?
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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2013, 08:00:32 AM »

The worst Catholic Apologists come from Catholic Answers. Oh vey.

As a general comment, I agree that there are some very unprofessional -- and let's face it, just plain bad -- Catholic apologists out there.

Not meaning to be random, but I can see a bit of a resemblance between some Catholic apologists/ecumenists and G.K. Chesterton's
"agnostic teachers [who] turned clean round":

"When I asked for an altar, I was told that we needed none, for men our brothers gave us clear oracles and one creed in their universal customs and ideals. But if I mildly pointed out that one of men's universal customs was to have an altar, then my agnostic teachers turned clean round and told me that men had always been in darkness and the superstitions of savages."
 - GK Chesterton, Orthodoxy
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2013, 08:45:10 AM »

To number 10:

What's a phone book?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2013, 09:11:26 AM »

To number 10:

What's a phone book?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
I have heard rumors of such tomes existing.  Legend has it that they would record the names and some abstract info known as "land line numbers"  All attempts by archeologists to date have failed to reveal what these "land line numbers" might be, but initial reports indicate they might me some sort of ancient communications device.  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2013, 09:14:21 AM »

My grandmother used to have one of these "telephone books" and "land lines." Somehow it was related to something she had called a "rotary phone," which you not only couldn't take out with you, but you couldn't even walk around the house with. How did people survive those times?

As for the EO Apologist list(s), I shall have to try my hand at them later  Cool
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2013, 09:16:37 AM »

My grandmother used to have one of these "telephone books" and "land lines." Somehow it was related to something she had called a "rotary phone," which you not only couldn't take out with you, but you couldn't even walk around the house with. How did people survive those times?

As for the EO Apologist list(s), I shall have to try my hand at them later  Cool
Now I am truly confused, what is the point of texting if you can't walk around with it?  Why on earth would you want communicate and search the internet from a single location?  Huh
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2013, 09:29:48 AM »


9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.


Rude? Pot meet kettle.  I don't know about anyone else but in the Catholic blogosphere the anti-Orthodox sentiment seems to have ramped up lately. I'm not sure why.  A post on the ad orientem site from about a month ago goes into some more details.

Hold your arms open?  Holding your arms open means unconditional.  Yet, you have conditions in both hands.  Your conditions are acceptance of the Pope as our infallible leader (won't happen), defending the filioque theologically while being given the concession (how generous) of not actually SAYING it in the creed (again, how generous), recognizing and accepting other doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, etc.
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »

To number 10:

What's a phone book?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
I have heard rumors of such tomes existing.  Legend has it that they would record the names and some abstract info known as "land line numbers"  All attempts by archeologists to date have failed to reveal what these "land line numbers" might be, but initial reports indicate they might me some sort of ancient communications device.  Wink

Hmmm, yes.  "Land line numbers" were perhaps the ancient genetic code that continues on in modern cellular telphones.  The term "telephone" being a vestigial term of a simpler time.  Every once in a while the "postman" comes by and drops a bag made of processed petroleum with one of these modern day "phone books."  I scream heresy and call him a witch.  I have all that information on my cellular telephone with access to the internets and such.  I researched all this information at the local temple of "books", but the priestess there showed me a "desktop" computer that also had access to the internets.  I tried swiping the screen with my digits, but, lo, she said it was not a touch screen and I must needs use a "mouse."
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2013, 09:36:49 AM »


9. The Orthodox are rude to Catholics; they disparage us while we hold our arms open, in hope of their reunion.


Rude? Pot meet kettle.  I don't know about anyone else but in the Catholic blogosphere the anti-Orthodox sentiment seems to have ramped up lately. I'm not sure why.  A post on the ad orientem site from about a month ago goes into some more details.

Hold your arms open?  Holding your arms open means unconditional.  Yet, you have conditions in both hands.  Your conditions are acceptance of the Pope as our infallible leader (won't happen), defending the filioque theologically while being given the concession (how generous) of not actually SAYING it in the creed (again, how generous), recognizing and accepting other doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, etc.

+1, that's how it is in the fine print.
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2013, 09:38:20 AM »

I have heard rumors of such tomes existing.  Legend has it that they would record the names and some abstract info known as "land line numbers"  All attempts by archeologists to date have failed to reveal what these "land line numbers" might be, but initial reports indicate they might me some sort of ancient communications device. 

In the ancient days of Gondor they were not needed, for they had the Seven Stones.
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2013, 09:40:57 AM »

I have heard rumors of such tomes existing.  Legend has it that they would record the names and some abstract info known as "land line numbers"  All attempts by archeologists to date have failed to reveal what these "land line numbers" might be, but initial reports indicate they might me some sort of ancient communications device. 

In the ancient days of Gondor they were not needed, for they had the Seven Stones.
Interesting.  So these so called "land lines" are perhaps the decendants of the Seven Stones?
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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2013, 09:44:59 AM »

To number 10:

What's a phone book?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
I have heard rumors of such tomes existing.  Legend has it that they would record the names and some abstract info known as "land line numbers"  All attempts by archeologists to date have failed to reveal what these "land line numbers" might be, but initial reports indicate they might me some sort of ancient communications device.  Wink

Hmmm, yes.  "Land line numbers" were perhaps the ancient genetic code that continues on in modern cellular telphones.  The term "telephone" being a vestigial term of a simpler time.  Every once in a while the "postman" comes by and drops a bag made of processed petroleum with one of these modern day "phone books.  I scream heresy and call him a witch.  I have all that information on my cellular telephone with access to the internets and such.  I researched all this information at the local temple of "books", but the priestess there showed me a "desktop" computer that also had access to the internets.  I tried swiping the screen with my digits, but, lo, she said it was not a touch screen and I must needs use a "mouse."
A mouse you say?  What ancient deviltry is this when animals would access the internet for us? The mice I know can't even do a google search much less any other info I might need.  I remain suspicious of such absurd legends.
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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2013, 09:52:06 AM »

Mice were actually quite an improvement over having to type all this stuff or using a shell named dos. I know it will strike some as odd that they could fit a shell inside the computer, but computers were larger in those days.
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« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2013, 09:52:56 AM »

To number 10:

What's a phone book?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
I have heard rumors of such tomes existing.  Legend has it that they would record the names and some abstract info known as "land line numbers"  All attempts by archeologists to date have failed to reveal what these "land line numbers" might be, but initial reports indicate they might me some sort of ancient communications device.  Wink

Hmmm, yes.  "Land line numbers" were perhaps the ancient genetic code that continues on in modern cellular telphones.  The term "telephone" being a vestigial term of a simpler time.  Every once in a while the "postman" comes by and drops a bag made of processed petroleum with one of these modern day "phone books.  I scream heresy and call him a witch.  I have all that information on my cellular telephone with access to the internets and such.  I researched all this information at the local temple of "books", but the priestess there showed me a "desktop" computer that also had access to the internets.  I tried swiping the screen with my digits, but, lo, she said it was not a touch screen and I must needs use a "mouse."
A mouse you say?  What ancient deviltry is this when animals would access the internet for us? The mice I know can't even do a google search much less any other info I might need.  I remain suspicious of such absurd legends.

Believe you me, I searched high and low for a rodent, but she pointed to a grey, ovalesque object with a "cord" attached to said "desktop."  I said to the priestess, "You must be mad! That is no such thing as a mouse!"  She laughed and showed me how she manipulates the screen, without touching the screen, and using only the "mouse" to summon forth "videos."

"Sorcery!" I screamed.  "You and the 'postman' are in league with the devil, Lucifer his own self!"

I was later banished from the temple by our shire's reeve.
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« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2013, 09:53:59 AM »

Mice were actually quite an improvement over having to type all this stuff or using a shell named dos. I know it will strike some as odd that they could fit a shell inside the computer, but computers were larger in those days.

Was it a conch shell?
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« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2013, 09:54:28 AM »

Mice were actually quite an improvement over having to type all this stuff or using a shell named dos. I know it will strike some as odd that they could fit a shell inside the computer, but computers were larger in those days.
First mice and now turtle-computers?  Were the turtle computers mobile even if a bit slow?  Truly the ancient world must have been a sight to behold.
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« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2013, 09:55:40 AM »

Sidebar:  This is the best diversion of a thread I have read to date.  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2013, 09:58:52 AM »

Mice were actually quite an improvement over having to type all this stuff or using a shell named dos. I know it will strike some as odd that they could fit a shell inside the computer, but computers were larger in those days.
First mice and now turtle-computers?  Were the turtle computers mobile even if a bit slow?  Truly the ancient world must have been a sight to behold.

Dual natures?  Hypostatic union?  Was it a turtle that became computer or a computer that became turtle?  Did the turtle essence become subsumed to the computer nature, or vice versa?  A Council must be summoned!
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« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2013, 10:04:19 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2013, 10:26:22 AM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided
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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2013, 10:31:12 AM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2013, 11:33:11 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

I don't know him so I wouldn't necessarily perceive that
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2013, 11:36:31 AM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

I don't know him so I wouldn't necessarily perceive that
It is just something I got from the context of the post. I'm sure he will stop by to clarify.  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2013, 11:47:33 AM »

I have a theory that the saying "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" is itself a sarcastic statement made to embarrass people who don't understand that it is sarcasm and quote it as though it's meant to be taken literally. Very mean!  police
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2013, 11:52:25 AM »

I have a theory that the saying "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" is itself a sarcastic statement made to embarrass people who don't understand that it is sarcasm and quote it as though it's meant to be taken literally. Very mean!  police
Further down the rabbit hole we go!  laugh
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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2013, 12:12:32 PM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

That's what I was guessing, when I read Nephi's post.
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2013, 12:16:39 PM »

3. Roman Catholics are wrong because they ascribe to Augustine (who, btw, is not really a saint) and his heretical teachings.

No saint is perfect, not even in his writings.  I assume then that you regard Isasc the SYrian and Gregory of Nyssa as non-saints because of some of their doctrines that have been repudiated.  This anti-Augustinianism of yours (and lots of other Orthodox too) makes me sick.  Show me one father, just one, who preached more about repentance than Augustine.  His theology is consistent with theosis.  And some of our great fathers such as Photios the Great and Mark of Ephesus considered Augustine as a saint.  Who are you to say otherwise?

You may want to lay off the Fr. John Romanides' books for awhile.
Without speaking for Nephi, I think he was using sarcasm and humor to demonstrate those are things that lousy Orthodox apologists would say, not that he believes that for himself.

Yes sir. Cool
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2013, 12:17:18 PM »

I have a theory that the saying "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" is itself a sarcastic statement made to embarrass people who don't understand that it is sarcasm and quote it as though it's meant to be taken literally. Very mean!  police

Literalism?  For shame!  This only works if sarcasm is literally a wit which is (in the physical realm) at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2013, 12:19:41 PM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police

And interestingly it seems that Blessed is a particularly unique title of affection for St. Augustine. Considering the charge that we often completely overlook him and his writings (including the good), I wonder how he came to be referred to as "Blessed Augustine" among all the other saints.
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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2013, 01:19:31 PM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police

And interestingly it seems that Blessed is a particularly unique title of affection for St. Augustine. Considering the charge that we often completely overlook him and his writings (including the good), I wonder how he came to be referred to as "Blessed Augustine" among all the other saints.
I have wondered this myself.
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2013, 02:20:33 PM »

No need to provide answers to Catholic apologists. The Catholics who have the answers are broke and had to fire everybody. They can't respond without another $300,000.
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2013, 02:20:59 PM »

Goarch calendar commemorates him on June 15 and calls him, "Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo:"  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/dateceleb_view?m=6&d=15&y=2013    I usually hear his name as St. Augustine. Undecided

But, Blessed = Saint, so...  police

And interestingly it seems that Blessed is a particularly unique title of affection for St. Augustine. Considering the charge that we often completely overlook him and his writings (including the good), I wonder how he came to be referred to as "Blessed Augustine" among all the other saints.
I have wondered this myself.

One question:  don't Orthodox use the term "Blessed" for people that have not quite been canonized as saints, as the Roman Catholics do?
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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2013, 02:25:06 PM »


One question:  don't Orthodox use the term "Blessed" for people that have not quite been canonized as saints, as the Roman Catholics do?
Nope.

It's a descriptor, not a title, e.g. "the blessed Mother of God."
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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »

No need to provide answers to Catholic apologists. The Catholics who have the answers are broke and had to fire everybody. They can't respond without another $300,000.

I got an email about that, which I found very confusing. "We fired 945 people but still need a truckload of money to make ends meet. Send us money!"  Huh
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« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »


One question:  don't Orthodox use the term "Blessed" for people that have not quite been canonized as saints, as the Roman Catholics do?
Nope.

It's a descriptor, not a title, e.g. "the blessed Mother of God."

All right, that makes more sense.  I have seen several icons of Fr. Seraphim Rose floating around and it will say "Blessed Seraphim of Platina"  and I know he hasn't been glorified a saint by any synod.  I know the RC canonization process will have those that have been beatified called "Blessed."
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« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2013, 02:51:39 PM »

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« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2013, 02:56:06 PM »

I should have realized.  I stand next to her at Liturgy all the time.
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« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2013, 03:12:35 PM »

No need to provide answers to Catholic apologists. The Catholics who have the answers are broke and had to fire everybody. They can't respond without another $300,000.

Some people at CAF got dramatic salary cuts.

Thank goodness I wasn't one them!
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« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2013, 08:01:53 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.
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« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2013, 08:29:40 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

Meh about the first one.  The endless contraception argument to me is just kind of wasting breath.

The second one makes me lol.  What does that even mean? I could make the same argument about all sorts of ridiculous things.  Deism has the ability to contain Christianity, but Christianity cannot contain Deism. My wife's jewelry box can contain her jewelry, but her jewelry cannot contain the jewelry box.  Worst argument ever.
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« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2013, 08:43:27 PM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2013, 08:52:57 PM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?

That would be my point, too. It's not like you can just pick any old Orthodox bishop, see if they were ever inconsistent in their writings, and then use that to prove that the Orthodox Faith has changed.
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« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2013, 08:55:47 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

The second one makes me lol.  What does that even mean? I could make the same argument about all sorts of ridiculous things.  Deism has the ability to contain Christianity, but Christianity cannot contain Deism. My wife's jewelry box can contain her jewelry, but her jewelry cannot contain the jewelry box.  Worst argument ever.

The person then said that he didn't want to get into why this was so because it might "confuse" people.

It's an asinine claim to make, for sure. Priding one's own approach by reducing the other approach to not even a complementary one, but a subservient one.
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« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2013, 08:58:45 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

The second one makes me lol.  What does that even mean? I could make the same argument about all sorts of ridiculous things.  Deism has the ability to contain Christianity, but Christianity cannot contain Deism. My wife's jewelry box can contain her jewelry, but her jewelry cannot contain the jewelry box.  Worst argument ever.

The person then said that he didn't want to get into why this was so because it might "confuse" people.

It's an asinine claim to make, for sure. Priding one's own approach by reducing the other approach to not even a complementary one, but a subservient one.
Well, that's fun.  I am so blue I'm greener than purple.  I don't want to get into why this is because it might confuse people.
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« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2013, 09:45:36 PM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.






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« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2013, 10:02:57 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!
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« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2013, 10:20:28 PM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard that one before. (I think I would remember something that weird.) I have heard the argument that Catholicism has "both lungs", whereas Orthodoxy has only one.
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« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2013, 11:07:09 PM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?

Since every zealous convert reads his books and almost nothing else and then go on boards like oc.net and show off what they know and what (they think) cradles don't.
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« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2013, 10:02:49 AM »

12. Bishop Kallistos wrote in early editions of The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox agreed with the Catholics on contraception (i.e. that it's forbidden in all circumstances). In later editions, Bishop Kallistos wrote that there is some leeway with contraception. The Orthodox Church has changed its stance in just the last 50 years.

As significant as he is in the English-speaking world, since when is Metropolitan Kallistos is the sole authoritative voice of Orthodoxy?

Since every zealous convert reads his books and almost nothing else and then go on boards like oc.net and show off what they know and what (they think) cradles don't.

Smiley

The only edition of The Orthodox Church that I've read was the first, with the "conservative" position on contraception.  I wonder how much of the perceived change between that and subsequent editions had to do with his subsequent entrance into ordained ministry.  The copy I read was written by "Timothy Ware", a convert to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  The copy I own for my library lists, as author, Kallistos (Timothy) Ware or Metropolitan Kallistos Ware (I forget which), by then a Greek bishop.  Reading one's way into the Church is one thing, but actually living within the Church and working with people is another experience entirely.  There need not be a conflict between the two, but only a more comprehensive understanding of the whole.   
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« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2013, 10:04:41 AM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard that one before. (I think I would remember something that weird.) I have heard the argument that Catholicism has "both lungs", whereas Orthodoxy has only one.

Well, that may explain why I get exhausted at times..... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2013, 10:07:31 AM »

Well, I'm convinced.  Pope Francis, here I come!

Yeah, me too. Get behind me......lets go...
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« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2013, 10:56:56 AM »

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard that one before. (I think I would remember something that weird.) I have heard the argument that Catholicism has "both lungs", whereas Orthodoxy has only one.

Well, that may explain why I get exhausted at times..... Roll Eyes

Hey don't make me come over there!  laugh
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« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2013, 10:57:49 AM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police
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« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2013, 11:35:36 AM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police

Or the Romaine Orthodox:

"Lettuce pray to the Lord..."
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« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2013, 11:58:53 AM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police

Or the Romaine Orthodox:

"Lettuce pray to the Lord..."

It has more Mystique that way.
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« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2013, 12:00:49 PM »

I heard two new ones today:

13. The West has the ability to contain Eastern thought, but the East cannot contain Western thought.

This is silly. Throughout history there have been Orthodox theologians who have high regard for St. Thomas Aquinas, and I have met some on this very forum who hold similar views.

But even more importantly, western thought is heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, which comes from... wait for it... the East.

Who was the silly-willy who claimed that the East cannot contain western thought?
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« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2013, 12:17:47 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!
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« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!


I've seen you post this bishop's photo several times, but I guess I was inactive when you explained who it was.  Who is this Pope?  Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!


I've seen you post this bishop's photo several times, but I guess I was inactive when you explained who it was.  Who is this Pope?  Smiley
His Grace Bishop Silouan

"Following the decision of the Extraordinary Meeting of the Italian clergy to establish the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Gavedo, 8 May 2007), approved by the Metropolitan Assembly (Limours, 1 June 2007) and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church (Bucharest, June 21, 2007 ) was chosen as the sole candidate by the electoral college Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Paris, 19 February 2008), and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church elected the first bishop of Italy (Bucharest, March 5, 2008). He was enthroned by Metropolitan Joseph Lucca, on Thursday 8 May 2008."

More info:  http://www.bisericaortodoxafirenze.com/
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« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2013, 01:45:42 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!


I've seen you post this bishop's photo several times, but I guess I was inactive when you explained who it was.  Who is this Pope?  Smiley
His Grace Bishop Silouan

"Following the decision of the Extraordinary Meeting of the Italian clergy to establish the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Gavedo, 8 May 2007), approved by the Metropolitan Assembly (Limours, 1 June 2007) and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church (Bucharest, June 21, 2007 ) was chosen as the sole candidate by the electoral college Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Italy (Paris, 19 February 2008), and the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church elected the first bishop of Italy (Bucharest, March 5, 2008). He was enthroned by Metropolitan Joseph Lucca, on Thursday 8 May 2008."

More info:  http://www.bisericaortodoxafirenze.com/
I know the Romanians call priests "Popa" but I'm not sure if they call bishops that.
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« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2013, 04:25:45 PM »

It's true, there's no Roman Orthodox!

Roamin' Orthodox on the other hand... (har har)  police

Or the Romaine Orthodox:

"Lettuce pray to the Lord..."

It has more Mystique that way.

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