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Offline Charles Martel

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Someone needs ro remind them.  ;)

Egyptian Muslims forget Muhammad’s letter to Christian monks at Mt. Sinai


Here is an English translation of Muhammad’s letter:

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”



http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/egyptian-muslims-forget-muhammads-letter-to-christian-monks-at-mt.-sinai/0019989
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Whoopsies.
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Whoopsies.
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Offline scamandrius

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Someone needs ro remind them.  ;)

Egyptian Muslims forget Muhammad’s letter to Christian monks at Mt. Sinai


Here is an English translation of Muhammad’s letter:

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”



http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/egyptian-muslims-forget-muhammads-letter-to-christian-monks-at-mt.-sinai/0019989

The Muslim version of "development of doctrine?"  THis is what it meant back in 650, but now in 2013 it means...
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Offline dzheremi

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I have brought this up to Muslims I know, seeking an explanation for the discrepancy between the tolerant language of the letter and the reality of Christian churches, monasteries, homes, and businesses burning across Egypt. Some agree with me that it is a disgrace, but others more chillingly have said that Muhammad sent that to the monks of Sinai, so it is meant for the monks of that monastery only, and does not extent to the Coptic monasteries or churches. :( They say that in Muhammad's day, treaties were contracted among specific tribes, not vague/general ethnoreligious bodies (i.e., a treaty with a specific Jewish or Christian tribe in Muhammad's environs would not protect Jews or Christians elsewhere when the warriors of Muhammad came to them later, though there are of course examples of treaties/pacts being signed in some of those contexts, too).

But anyway, yes, it does seem that Muhammad's letter, or at least what we can take as the spirit of it (if we are feeling optimistic), is often overlooked, or relegated to being used for "tolerance points" when trying to prove Islam to be as peaceful as we're constantly told that it is, despite all present day and historical evidence to the contrary. Sad.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Whoopsies.
I think it is safe to say that you are the only person I know with your own sig in your own sig line.

More people probably read it, seeing that it was so. :)
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Whoopsies.
I think it is safe to say that you are the only person I know with your own sig in your own sig line.
Not true, Gebre does that on occasion as well.
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Offline rakovsky

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Nice letter.

Offline rakovsky

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others more chillingly have said that Muhammad sent that to the monks of Sinai, so it is meant for the monks of that monastery only, and does not extent to the Coptic monasteries or churches. :(

as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far,

Offline Shiny

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What's the problem? Christians are guilty of this too.
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Offline Andrew Crook

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The followers are often guilty of not living up to the example of their founder.   Jesus and Muhammad could be very different, and yet had some similarities -- and it is the goal of every Muslim to strive to imitate the example of his prophet, especially in the more honorable aspects of his life.
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Offline scamandrius

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The followers are often guilty of not living up to the example of their founder.   Jesus and Muhammad could be very different, and yet had some similarities -- and it is the goal of every Muslim to strive to imitate the example of his prophet, especially in the more honorable aspects of his life.

And what aspects would those be?
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Offline Theophilos78

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This looks like a forgery. According to the Qur'an, Muhammad considered Christians equal to idolaters in the last days of the so-called revelation.

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. (Surah 9:30-33 Pickthall)
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Off topic, what is a Yahwist-Apostolic Christian? I googled it and came up with this.  Is this your denomination?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Christian_Church
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Offline Theophilos78

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Off topic, what is a Yahwist-Apostolic Christian? I googled it and came up with this.  Is this your denomination?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Christian_Church

No, I am nothing even close to that.  ;D

I am an Orthodox Christian who designates himself as a Yahwist believer. I tend to use Hebrew forms of the Biblical names and lay emphasis on the first of the Ten Commandments. The name of my Elohim is Adonai YHWH, no other.
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Offline rakovsky

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Off topic, what is a Yahwist-Apostolic Christian? I googled it and came up with this.  Is this your denomination?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Christian_Church

No, I am nothing even close to that.  ;D

I am an Orthodox Christian who designates himself as a Yahwist believer. I tend to use Hebrew forms of the Biblical names and lay emphasis on the first of the Ten Commandments. The name of my Elohim is Adonai YHWH, no other.
I like the name Yeshua, because that is what Jesus was called in His language. But if it was important for us to use the most exact form, then why didn't the apostolic writers of the gospels call him "Yisua" in Greek? So I think this is not very important, although it can be nice sometimes.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 01:00:09 PM by rakovsky »

Offline Theophilos78

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Off topic, what is a Yahwist-Apostolic Christian? I googled it and came up with this.  Is this your denomination?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Christian_Church

No, I am nothing even close to that.  ;D

I am an Orthodox Christian who designates himself as a Yahwist believer. I tend to use Hebrew forms of the Biblical names and lay emphasis on the first of the Ten Commandments. The name of my Elohim is Adonai YHWH, no other.
I like the name Yeshua, because that is what Jesus was called in His language. But if it was important for us to use the most exact form, then why didn't the apostolic writers of the gospels call him "Yisua" in Greek? So I think this is not very important, although it can be nice sometimes.

I guess maintaining the name Yeshua is against the phonotactics of the Greek language. Y is always transformed into Iw. Besides, the name Yeshua makes sense only in Hebrew.  ;)
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Offline Charles Martel

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This looks like a forgery. According to the Qur'an, Muhammad considered Christians equal to idolaters in the last days of the so-called revelation.

It does? Of course you can prove that I assume.

I also didn't realize you were a master at interpreting the Koran.

Well done.
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Offline Theophilos78

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This looks like a forgery. According to the Qur'an, Muhammad considered Christians equal to idolaters in the last days of the so-called revelation.

It does? Of course you can prove that I assume.

I also didn't realize you were a master at interpreting the Koran.

Well done.

First, I said it LOOKS LIKE a forgery. Nothing definite about that as I am not an archaelogist or someone who can check the text.  ::)

Second, no need to prove the possibility after quoting some verses from the Qur'an that overtly contradict what was stated in this letter.  ::)

Third, I did not interpret the Qur'an. I simply quoted some verses from it. Everyone who has the ability to read and comprehend could do that without being a master at anything.  ;D

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This looks like a forgery. According to the Qur'an, Muhammad considered Christians equal to idolaters in the last days of the so-called revelation.

It does? Of course you can prove that I assume.

I also didn't realize you were a master at interpreting the Koran.

Well done.

He used to be a Muslim.

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I'm not sure if it's important, but many scholars challenge the authenticity of Muhammad's authorship of that letter. 

Then again, most scholars doubt the authorship of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Paul, etc.

Regardless, this letter is generally not considered a firm teaching of Muhammad's.  Nevertheless, the Bedouin of the Sinai Peninsula have largely left the monastery alone.  I once read ethnographic studies of some of the groups there, but while I remember that they had long let the monastery be, I can't remember if the letter was mentioned as a reason; I don't believe it was.

With things going the way they are in the Sinai, I hope and pray that the monastery continues to "get a pass," whatever the reason. 
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Offline Charles Martel

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This looks like a forgery. According to the Qur'an, Muhammad considered Christians equal to idolaters in the last days of the so-called revelation.

It does? Of course you can prove that I assume.

I also didn't realize you were a master at interpreting the Koran.

Well done.

He used to be a Muslim.
And your point is? I know plenty of American blacks who call themselves "muslim' who never opened a koran.


I'm not saying this is the case with Theo, but just stating one was once a follower of the desert prophet doesn't mean much.

But he may very well know what he's talking about, more than me when it comes to the Koran probably, that's for sure.

My next question is, has he mastered the Arabic, because according to their scholars you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of interpreting the holy book accurately unless you have. Their rules, not mine.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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What's the problem? Christians are guilty of this too.

Guilty of breaking a commandment of Mohammed?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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I'm not sure if it's important, but many scholars challenge the authenticity of Muhammad's authorship of that letter. 

Then again, most scholars doubt the authorship of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Paul, etc.

Regardless, this letter is generally not considered a firm teaching of Muhammad's.  Nevertheless, the Bedouin of the Sinai Peninsula have largely left the monastery alone.  I once read ethnographic studies of some of the groups there, but while I remember that they had long let the monastery be, I can't remember if the letter was mentioned as a reason; I don't believe it was.

With things going the way they are in the Sinai, I hope and pray that the monastery continues to "get a pass," whatever the reason. 

Several scholars have challenged the authenticity of the Koran, but they're dead or in hiding now.
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Offline rakovsky

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I guess maintaining the name Yeshua is against the phonotactics of the Greek language. Y is always transformed into Iw. Besides, the name Yeshua makes sense only in Hebrew.  ;)
Theophilos,

I know you are having fun with it, and I think it's nice sometimes too, but my point is that it's not necessary. When the evangelists preached to the Greeks, they did not keep using His name in Hebrew, nor did they use the closest approximation possible for Greek speakers.

Assuming you are right about Y becoming Iw, they still did not say Iwesua, which they could have. Instead, the evangelists hellenized the name, making it Iisus.

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I'm not sure if it's important, but many scholars challenge the authenticity of Muhammad's authorship of that letter. 

Then again, most scholars doubt the authorship of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Paul, etc.

Regardless, this letter is generally not considered a firm teaching of Muhammad's.  Nevertheless, the Bedouin of the Sinai Peninsula have largely left the monastery alone.  I once read ethnographic studies of some of the groups there, but while I remember that they had long let the monastery be, I can't remember if the letter was mentioned as a reason; I don't believe it was.

With things going the way they are in the Sinai, I hope and pray that the monastery continues to "get a pass," whatever the reason. 

I am not a scholar of such things, but it would be interesting to know on what basis they challenge it.  The way it reads, at least superficially, sounds very much like the language of the Quran - an interjection (such as Look! or O People!) followed by an explanation, command and/or prohibition.  That style always stood out to me from the Quran.  But what do I know. 

The original document is sealed with a wax hand print, as I recall, said to be that of Muhammad.

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Offline Theophilos78

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Assuming you are right about Y becoming Iw, they still did not say Iwesua, which they could have. Instead, the evangelists hellenized the name, making it Iisus.
The names beginning with Jo- turn into Iw in Greek. For example: Joachim becomes Iwoachim. Since Jesus was called Yehoshoua in Hebrew, Y became I whilst e was maintained, sh became s since there is no sh sound in Greek. Iesoua so far, but in Greek male names end in -s. Thus, a was changed into s and we got Iesous.  ;)
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Offline Theophilos78

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I'm not sure if it's important, but many scholars challenge the authenticity of Muhammad's authorship of that letter. 

Then again, most scholars doubt the authorship of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Paul, etc.

Regardless, this letter is generally not considered a firm teaching of Muhammad's.  Nevertheless, the Bedouin of the Sinai Peninsula have largely left the monastery alone.  I once read ethnographic studies of some of the groups there, but while I remember that they had long let the monastery be, I can't remember if the letter was mentioned as a reason; I don't believe it was.

With things going the way they are in the Sinai, I hope and pray that the monastery continues to "get a pass," whatever the reason. 
I am not a scholar of such things, but it would be interesting to know on what basis they challenge it.  The way it reads, at least superficially, sounds very much like the language of the Quran - an interjection (such as Look! or O People!) followed by an explanation, command and/or prohibition.  That style always stood out to me from the Quran.  But what do I know. 

The original document is sealed with a wax hand print, as I recall, said to be that of Muhammad.

A Muslim, particularly an Arab who is familiar with the language and structure of the Qur'an- could have invented that letter.  ;)

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Offline Alpo

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It doesn't really matter whether it is authentic or not unless one is a historian. If Muslims deem it as authentic, it is extremely important for Christian minorities in Muslim countries.